The new mesmer and necro traitlines offer many syncs with existing traits and existing weapon options. Unfortunately, our new specialization is catered exclusively for longbow and lacking any meaningful syncs or support for our existing options. Namely, DH traits are for traps, foes that are beyond melee range and/or crippled. I doubt i personally would have any use for traps as a melee guard. While bow gets some sync from radiance and/or zeal, the alt weapon would feel lacking. Basically, once you pick DH, it would seem that you will spend most of the time with the longbow for best result and the alt weapon tab is like a mob-skipping or i’m-bored option. And just curious, what is your choice of alt weapon tab if you go longbow.
(edited by quaniesan.8497)
I agree and in the other DH trait discussion thread, I suggested a few changes to the Dragonhunter line that I think would address that issue quite a bit.
DRAGONHUNTER:
Piercing Light:
Cause 3 stacks of Bleeding to targets when you reach the burning threshold.
Threshold: 3 stacks of burning
Trapped (Replaces Soaring devastation. Soaring Devastation will be merged with Strengthened Virtues below.)
Deal 10% more damage to Stunned, Knocked down or Immobilized foes. Immobilized foes cannot evade and deal 15% less damage.
Weakened Prey
Apply weakness to targets when you reach the bleeding threshold.
Threshold: 3 stacks of Bleed
Weakness for 7s
Strengthened Virtues (This should be moved to GM tier replacing Heavy Light and Heavy Light should be merged with Dulled Senses in the master tier. This also removes Soaring Devastation as I don’t think it’s a very good trait on its own.)
Shield of Courage lasts longer and has an increased radius.
Wings of Resolve immobilize foes at your starting location and heals allies at your landing location.
Spear of Justice knocks down all foes it hits
Hunter Determination
Your attacks that are blinded, blocked or evaded, grant you a stacking buff.
Your next attack deals 10% more damage. Stacks up to 5 times. This effect ends after 10s or when you land an attack. Attackers outside the threshold take 10% more damage. Gain stability for every enemy hit by True Shot.
Threshold: 600
Hunters Fortification (The current hunter’s fortification should be change to this)
When you lay down a Ward, you also lay down a trap. Traps recharge 20% faster and apply bleeds.
Trap: Test of Faith (Wards include Hammer 5, Staff 5, Longbow 5)
Trap Cooldown: 45
Replace Pure of Sight minor trait with;
Winged Defender
Activating Wings of Resolve grants you Aegis.
merge Pure of Sight with Hunter’s Determination.
The only problem is, we’re not sure how anet wants to go about tackling that problem. If they indeed recognize it.
(edited by Dirame.8521)
Um, why would we need MORE support for melee in the DH line? We already have more than we need of that.
Um, why would we need MORE support for melee in the DH line? We already have more than we need of that.
By the same token, why did necros and mesmer got sync for existing options when they already have more than that, and why couldn’t we? “we already have more than we need” you said ? you forget that by taking the DH lines, we only have 2 lines left for the “more than we need of that” you mentioned about. Sure, we got good amount in the existing lines, but we don’t get to pick most of them because one line is already for the DH.
Um, why would we need MORE support for melee in the DH line? We already have more than we need of that.
If they could replace Heavy Light with a bleed focused trait not restricted to traps like your spear of justice gains bleed on it’s passive and active,add a supportive trait for traps like traps convert 2 conditions in fury/might(3 stacks) when activated. The line seems to restrictive…
Um, why would we need MORE support for melee in the DH line? We already have more than we need of that.
By the same token, why did necros and mesmer got sync for existing options when they already have more than that, and why couldn’t we? “we already have more than we need” you said ? you forget that by taking the DH lines, we only have 2 lines left for the “more than we need of that” you mentioned about. Sure, we got good amount in the existing lines, but we don’t get to pick most of them because one line is already for the DH.
The elite spec did different things for those professions, that’s why. I can’t see a reason to push for more melee/support options considering we have many and they are very good. If anything, I would like to see some more ranged support in the established lines so if you want ranged weapon, DH is not your meta.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Um, why would we need MORE support for melee in the DH line? We already have more than we need of that.
If they could replace Heavy Light with a bleed focused trait not restricted to traps like your spear of justice gains bleed on it’s passive and active,add a supportive trait for traps like traps convert 2 conditions in fury/might(3 stacks) when activated. The line seems to restrictive…
That trait is bad. I believe that if any change doesn’t support the purpose of the DH line (Ranged and Virtue enhancements), the I think it would just be another miss.
Um, why would we need MORE support for melee in the DH line? We already have more than we need of that.
If they could replace Heavy Light with a bleed focused trait not restricted to traps like your spear of justice gains bleed on it’s passive and active,add a supportive trait for traps like traps convert 2 conditions in fury/might(3 stacks) when activated. The line seems to restrictive…
That trait is bad. I believe that if any change doesn’t support the purpose of the DH line (Ranged and Virtue enhancements), the I think it would just be another miss.
Even if in need of polishing traps are still part of it, trait lines are made for synergy now that we can have 3 of them there is no valid point of making one too restrictive.
Honestly I don’t think the guardian needs more support.
What it needs are
1: Ways to keep foes in melee range (IE cripples, knock downs, stuns etc…)
&
2: Access to damaging conditions.
Sadly what the dragon Hunter tree provides, even via traits that trigger off of abilities are tied far too much to traps.
I made allot of suggestions here https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Thoughts-on-guardian-DH-traits-skills/first#post5083144
If people have any of their own, want to give suggestions or just BUMP the thread feel free to.
Um, why would we need MORE support for melee in the DH line? We already have more than we need of that.
If they could replace Heavy Light with a bleed focused trait not restricted to traps like your spear of justice gains bleed on it’s passive and active,add a supportive trait for traps like traps convert 2 conditions in fury/might(3 stacks) when activated. The line seems to restrictive…
That trait is bad. I believe that if any change doesn’t support the purpose of the DH line (Ranged and Virtue enhancements), the I think it would just be another miss.
Even if in need of polishing traps are still part of it, trait lines are made for synergy now that we can have 3 of them there is no valid point of making one too restrictive.
No reason a trait can’t effect traps as well as something else.
Um, why would we need MORE support for melee in the DH line? We already have more than we need of that.
By the same token, why did necros and mesmer got sync for existing options when they already have more than that, and why couldn’t we? “we already have more than we need” you said ? you forget that by taking the DH lines, we only have 2 lines left for the “more than we need of that” you mentioned about. Sure, we got good amount in the existing lines, but we don’t get to pick most of them because one line is already for the DH.
The elite spec did different things for those professions, that’s why. I can’t see a reason to push for more melee/support options considering we have many and they are very good. If anything, I would like to see some more ranged support in the established lines so if you want ranged weapon, DH is not your meta.
You either didn’t read my arguments and assumed I meant what you think I meant or purposely avoided the merits of my arguments. I never said we didn’t have enough melee support, and I never said I ask for direct melee support. My point was with the DH lines lacking sync with existing traits (sword/staff/gs), thus if you chose the DH lines, you only have 2 lines left for defense + alt weapon tab. Necros and mesmers’ new specialization still interact well with their existing traitlines, for example aclarity has global bonus to other weapon choices. I would love that the DH line would offer some traits that can work with sword/staff/gs or shouts without buffing them directly.
Um, why would we need MORE support for melee in the DH line? We already have more than we need of that.
If they could replace Heavy Light with a bleed focused trait not restricted to traps like your spear of justice gains bleed on it’s passive and active,add a supportive trait for traps like traps convert 2 conditions in fury/might(3 stacks) when activated. The line seems to restrictive…
That trait is bad. I believe that if any change doesn’t support the purpose of the DH line (Ranged and Virtue enhancements), the I think it would just be another miss.
Even if in need of polishing traps are still part of it, trait lines are made for synergy now that we can have 3 of them there is no valid point of making one too restrictive.
No reason a trait can’t effect traps as well as something else.
Piercing Light is an adept trait :/ and Heavy Light scrapped the bottom of the creativity barrel but yes no reason not to,traps baseline need improvement anyway.
So… lets see, for all the weapon sets (despite the title of the thread being melee)
VoJ: now does more burning damage, aoe, based on staying close,
VoR, leap, gap closer.
VoC: destroys projectiles, great for when getting kited,
Traits:
Piercing light, bleed for traps, which can obviously used well in melee builds, despite weapon,
Zealots Aggression, free 10% damage to crippled enemies, count cripple from any source
Soaring Devestation: an attack AND IMMOB on VoR.
Defenders dogma: instant VoJ passive on block, good for focus and mace
Bulwark: increase to VoC, bigger range and duration, helps more with dealing with kiting,
Dulled Senses: cripple on knockback, hammer/shield both have knockbacks, and also the honor trait protective reviver. wondering if this works for wards as well, though i believe those are only knockdowns, if so, would like seeing the trait buffed to any actual stuns, knockdowns and knockbacks
Pure of sight: extra damage at range, includes scepter and staff, torch throw, if they ever fix it sword #3….
Hunters fort: free prot on virtue activation, works for any weapon.
Big game hunter: vuln when attacking Voj’ed enemies, GREAT for multi hit weapons such as GS, scepter, sword, and torch, but also allows for free vuln regardless.
So based on the OP saying that the trait line is focused around traps and LB, there is ONE trap trait (which honestly i wish had some more substance to it), and a total of TWO Longbow specific traits in the DH line, Hunter’s determination, and heavy light, which were not included in the list above. EVERY other trait than those 3 can be used with other weapons, or actually help a set of weapons (Pure of sight for ranged, and big game hunter for mutli-hit attacks for more specific examples.)
Honestly, after being gone from the game for a while, and going through the forums about these changes, I really feel like so much of the guardian community doesnt even LOOK at what we have and what we are getting together in a bigger picture. Everyone except a select few look at the specialization and see nothing but Longbow and traps, and doesn’t even seem to look and see what could be done using different combinations.
Um, why would we need MORE support for melee in the DH line? We already have more than we need of that.
By the same token, why did necros and mesmer got sync for existing options when they already have more than that, and why couldn’t we? “we already have more than we need” you said ? you forget that by taking the DH lines, we only have 2 lines left for the “more than we need of that” you mentioned about. Sure, we got good amount in the existing lines, but we don’t get to pick most of them because one line is already for the DH.
The elite spec did different things for those professions, that’s why. I can’t see a reason to push for more melee/support options considering we have many and they are very good. If anything, I would like to see some more ranged support in the established lines so if you want ranged weapon, DH is not your meta.
Mesmer and necro got the same exact roles in pve that they currently have. Mesmer got more group support, and necro got more selfish melee dps. While the same cannot be said about pvp, nothing changed much for them.
Um, why would we need MORE support for melee in the DH line? We already have more than we need of that.
By the same token, why did necros and mesmer got sync for existing options when they already have more than that, and why couldn’t we? “we already have more than we need” you said ? you forget that by taking the DH lines, we only have 2 lines left for the “more than we need of that” you mentioned about. Sure, we got good amount in the existing lines, but we don’t get to pick most of them because one line is already for the DH.
The elite spec did different things for those professions, that’s why. I can’t see a reason to push for more melee/support options considering we have many and they are very good. If anything, I would like to see some more ranged support in the established lines so if you want ranged weapon, DH is not your meta.
Why does “add more melee options” have to mean that all the traits in the DH line are exclusive to melee? The traits could easily be “flex traits” that fit various playstyles but serve certain playstyles more than others, just like the other two professions have gotten!
I mean seriously, I have only created 4 builds with the DH whilst on the Reaper I have 13. The options are just far greater in that new mechanic because of the way the traits can blend into many playstyles. The traits for the DH line do not do that very well.
(edited by Dirame.8521)
I agree, OP. The DH traitline has almost zero synergy with the current guardian traits and skills. It feels like it’s catered to longbow campers and does not add anything to existing builds.
That is the biggest problem with the Dragon Hunter traits, they lack synergy with other trait lines and our core Guardian abilities.
They need to do a complete redesign of the DH traits in order for it to be viable.
That is the biggest problem with the Dragon Hunter traits, they lack synergy with other trait lines and our core Guardian abilities.
They need to do a complete redesign of the DH traits in order for it to be viable.
They have great synergy with radiance and zeal, virtues not so much.
I agree, OP. The DH traitline has almost zero synergy with the current guardian traits and skills. It feels like it’s catered to longbow campers and does not add anything to existing builds.
Almost like its a separate profession with its own icon and everything!
I agree, OP. The DH traitline has almost zero synergy with the current guardian traits and skills. It feels like it’s catered to longbow campers and does not add anything to existing builds.
Almost like its a separate profession with its own icon and everything!
A separate profession that requires the old one to work? Very separate indeed.
Congratulations, you’ve discovered “Specializations!”.
And as far as virtues go, you still get everything you had before. All the passive traits and effects still work, all the active traits and effects still work, you still get boons, the extra damage, the condition removal and stability… Everything still works and you get more with DH.
Congratulations, you’ve discovered “Specializations!”.
And as far as virtues go, you still get everything you had before. All the passive traits and effects still work, all the active traits and effects still work, you still get boons, the extra damage, the condition removal and stability… Everything still works and you get more with DH.
Range/radius are still in the air, we dont know if traits will adopt the new mechanic’s radius or have their own fixed at 1200. If its the latter its all good the former however completely divorces virtues and DH.
I agree, OP. The DH traitline has almost zero synergy with the current guardian traits and skills. It feels like it’s catered to longbow campers and does not add anything to existing builds.
Almost like its a separate profession with its own icon and everything!
Yay! I’ve always wanted to build for two different things that contradict each other!
So… lets see, for all the weapon sets (despite the title of the thread being melee)
VoJ: now does more burning damage, aoe, based on staying close,
VoR, leap, gap closer.
VoC: destroys projectiles, great for when getting kited,Traits:
Piercing light, bleed for traps, which can obviously used well in melee builds, despite weapon,
Zealots Aggression, free 10% damage to crippled enemies, count cripple from any source
Soaring Devestation: an attack AND IMMOB on VoR.
Defenders dogma: instant VoJ passive on block, good for focus and mace
Bulwark: increase to VoC, bigger range and duration, helps more with dealing with kiting,
Dulled Senses: cripple on knockback, hammer/shield both have knockbacks, and also the honor trait protective reviver. wondering if this works for wards as well, though i believe those are only knockdowns, if so, would like seeing the trait buffed to any actual stuns, knockdowns and knockbacks
Pure of sight: extra damage at range, includes scepter and staff, torch throw, if they ever fix it sword #3….
Hunters fort: free prot on virtue activation, works for any weapon.
Big game hunter: vuln when attacking Voj’ed enemies, GREAT for multi hit weapons such as GS, scepter, sword, and torch, but also allows for free vuln regardless.
So based on the OP saying that the trait line is focused around traps and LB, there is ONE trap trait (which honestly i wish had some more substance to it), and a total of TWO Longbow specific traits in the DH line, Hunter’s determination, and heavy light, which were not included in the list above. EVERY other trait than those 3 can be used with other weapons, or actually help a set of weapons (Pure of sight for ranged, and big game hunter for mutli-hit attacks for more specific examples.)
Honestly, after being gone from the game for a while, and going through the forums about these changes, I really feel like so much of the guardian community doesnt even LOOK at what we have and what we are getting together in a bigger picture. Everyone except a select few look at the specialization and see nothing but Longbow and traps, and doesn’t even seem to look and see what could be done using different combinations.
+1
-snipped for length-
I totally agree. I’ve been forming rotations in my head just based on what was shown to me, and I’m already coming up with some pretty kick kitten combos. I’m expecting my melee DPS/Support to drop a bit (because Longbow, traps), and I’m more than compensating for that with a couple of builds I have in mind.
Dragonhunter really is a great Guardian alternative for those who found the original class a bit lackluster. It’s a lot more reactive and requires a bit more planning (at least when considering my play style).
The new mesmer and necro traitlines offer many syncs with existing traits and existing weapon options. Unfortunately, our new specialization is catered exclusively for longbow and lacking any meaningful syncs or support for our existing options.
In a way I feel the same quaniesan and it really hit home with the discussion of the Reapers Themes Lines within a Specialization.
Almost like its a separate profession with its own icon and everything!
It is in a way but it’s still only one of the specialization lines we choose to make a build and it needs to inter grate with the existing core specializations as well.
For me I loved the idea behind Themes Lines within Specialization and would love this idea to be throughout all of the Specializations. It would add this flow & feeling to within each Specialization. It shouldn’t stop you from mixing & matching these themes but it adds alot of favour.
I’ve enjoyed theorycrafting with the current known DH but have felt it lacking and seeing Theme Lines in the Reaper Specialization highlighted what I was feeling with DH.
Applying Theme Lines to “Dragonhunter” I would look a core use around:
(Haven’t really focused on exact themes yet so name very generic hopeful giving an idea of theme)
Minor Traits
For me this is a core problem with the current DH Spec as I find myself almost always having either Defender’s Dogma or Pure of Sight next to no effect on my designed builds.
Defender’s Dogma
Blocking an attack causes justice passive to activate for next attack
First I like the trait but find it odd as a core minor for DH as if you use Longbow & Traps the only block you will get is from Aegis either Virtue of Courage or Fragment of Faith. You can add more block with your second weapon & slotted skills or none. But I still like this trait.
Pure of Sight
Deal bonus damage to foes beyond the range threshold
And this is the most problematic minor trait for me, as if you go for a Melee Dragonhunter this minor has next to no benefit for you. I’ve had 2 ideas:
What I’m looking for is to not punish melee DH builds just because of a minor trait.
Working on another post with regards to each Theme Line and their traits.
(edited by Bezagron.7352)
Yay! I’ve always wanted to build for two different things that contradict each other!
Then maybe you should use the tools that are there for the purpose they are made for instead of trying to bend them to another job. It’s pretty hard to tighten/loosen bolts with a hammer…
Theme Line Trapper
Adept – Piercing Light: Trap hits bleed enemies & on activation cause 1 sec of cripple. The 1 sec of cripple added to Piercing Light’s activation is to help keep foes within the trap’s range.
Master – Dulled Senses: Enemies you knock back are crippled for 3 sec & slowed for 1 sec. With a trait name of Dulled Senses it also made sense that foe would also be slower at activating skills. The concept was your just taken this big hit that’s knocked you back, your stumbling around trying to come to your senses.
Grandmaser – Big Game Hunter: Apply protection when activating a virtue for 3 sec and Traps now have 2 charges but cooldowns are increased by 33% (maybe up to 50%). Also I’ve taken the Big Game Hunter name as I felt this more fitted with the Trapper Theme and applied it to the Hunter’s Fortification trait with the addition of charges to Traps but with the downside of increasing Trap cooldowns.
I’m aiming for more of a strategic type of gameplay through positional awareness & control, planning ahead, correct timing of attacks and trap placement. This line theme was about knowing your enemies strengths & weaknesses and setting up combat to your advantage through use of your traps.
Theme Line Bower
Adept – Zealot’s Aggression: Deal +10% dmg to crippled foes & +10% dmg to foes beyond 600 range. I moved Pure of Sight into this trait to add a ranged element enhancing this traits feeling for the Bower theme. Removing this from a minor also means this will no longer punish players that want to play a melee DH.
Master – Hunter’s Determination: True shot grants stability when channelled and 3 sec of stability for each enemy struck. Adding stability to the channel makes this abit harder to interrupt allow for a better reliable stability generator.
Grandmaster – Heavy Light: Longbow arrows knock back when enemies are within the range threshold (once evey 7 sec) and have 20% reduce cooldowns (Longbow cooldowns would need to be adjusted). Just looking at adding standard cooldown reduction, would love to head other ideas similar to some of the new cooldown reduction traits that could replace the just 20%.
I’m aiming for that range gameplay that Guardians lack through use of the Longbow’s skills and traits which will enable you to cripple & control your foes keeping them at range for you to punish.
Yay! I’ve always wanted to build for two different things that contradict each other!
Then maybe you should use the tools that are there for the purpose they are made for instead of trying to bend them to another job. It’s pretty hard to tighten/loosen bolts with a hammer…
Then they should probably give us a wrench instead of a hammer.
Or maybe, you’re looking to tighten/loosen bolts where there aren’t any.
Or maybe it’s just badly designed.
Maybe you’ve just got some… HoT opinions (see what I did there? Okay). I think it’s well designed. But hey, I’m not the one digging in your toolbox, so it’s not my issue.
So… lets see, for all the weapon sets (despite the title of the thread being melee)
VoJ: now does more burning damage, aoe, based on staying close,
VoR, leap, gap closer.
VoC: destroys projectiles, great for when getting kited,Traits:
Piercing light, bleed for traps, which can obviously used well in melee builds, despite weapon,
Zealots Aggression, free 10% damage to crippled enemies, count cripple from any source
Soaring Devestation: an attack AND IMMOB on VoR.
Defenders dogma: instant VoJ passive on block, good for focus and mace
Bulwark: increase to VoC, bigger range and duration, helps more with dealing with kiting,
Dulled Senses: cripple on knockback, hammer/shield both have knockbacks, and also the honor trait protective reviver. wondering if this works for wards as well, though i believe those are only knockdowns, if so, would like seeing the trait buffed to any actual stuns, knockdowns and knockbacks
Pure of sight: extra damage at range, includes scepter and staff, torch throw, if they ever fix it sword #3….
Hunters fort: free prot on virtue activation, works for any weapon.
Big game hunter: vuln when attacking Voj’ed enemies, GREAT for multi hit weapons such as GS, scepter, sword, and torch, but also allows for free vuln regardless.
So based on the OP saying that the trait line is focused around traps and LB, there is ONE trap trait (which honestly i wish had some more substance to it), and a total of TWO Longbow specific traits in the DH line, Hunter’s determination, and heavy light, which were not included in the list above. EVERY other trait than those 3 can be used with other weapons, or actually help a set of weapons (Pure of sight for ranged, and big game hunter for mutli-hit attacks for more specific examples.)
Honestly, after being gone from the game for a while, and going through the forums about these changes, I really feel like so much of the guardian community doesnt even LOOK at what we have and what we are getting together in a bigger picture. Everyone except a select few look at the specialization and see nothing but Longbow and traps, and doesn’t even seem to look and see what could be done using different combinations.
+1
+10000000000000 * 300000000 / 1
So… lets see, for all the weapon sets (despite the title of the thread being melee)
VoJ: now does more burning damage, aoe, based on staying close,
VoR, leap, gap closer.
VoC: destroys projectiles, great for when getting kited,Traits:
Piercing light, bleed for traps, which can obviously used well in melee builds, despite weapon,
Zealots Aggression, free 10% damage to crippled enemies, count cripple from any source
Soaring Devestation: an attack AND IMMOB on VoR.
Defenders dogma: instant VoJ passive on block, good for focus and mace
Bulwark: increase to VoC, bigger range and duration, helps more with dealing with kiting,
Dulled Senses: cripple on knockback, hammer/shield both have knockbacks, and also the honor trait protective reviver. wondering if this works for wards as well, though i believe those are only knockdowns, if so, would like seeing the trait buffed to any actual stuns, knockdowns and knockbacks
Pure of sight: extra damage at range, includes scepter and staff, torch throw, if they ever fix it sword #3….
Hunters fort: free prot on virtue activation, works for any weapon.
Big game hunter: vuln when attacking Voj’ed enemies, GREAT for multi hit weapons such as GS, scepter, sword, and torch, but also allows for free vuln regardless.
So based on the OP saying that the trait line is focused around traps and LB, there is ONE trap trait (which honestly i wish had some more substance to it), and a total of TWO Longbow specific traits in the DH line, Hunter’s determination, and heavy light, which were not included in the list above. EVERY other trait than those 3 can be used with other weapons, or actually help a set of weapons (Pure of sight for ranged, and big game hunter for mutli-hit attacks for more specific examples.)
Honestly, after being gone from the game for a while, and going through the forums about these changes, I really feel like so much of the guardian community doesnt even LOOK at what we have and what we are getting together in a bigger picture. Everyone except a select few look at the specialization and see nothing but Longbow and traps, and doesn’t even seem to look and see what could be done using different combinations.
+1
+10000000000000 * 300000000 / 1
+100!
So… lets see, for all the weapon sets (despite the title of the thread being melee)
VoJ: now does more burning damage, aoe, based on staying close,
VoR, leap, gap closer.
VoC: destroys projectiles, great for when getting kited,Traits:
Piercing light, bleed for traps, which can obviously used well in melee builds, despite weapon,
Zealots Aggression, free 10% damage to crippled enemies, count cripple from any source
Soaring Devestation: an attack AND IMMOB on VoR.
Defenders dogma: instant VoJ passive on block, good for focus and mace
Bulwark: increase to VoC, bigger range and duration, helps more with dealing with kiting,
Dulled Senses: cripple on knockback, hammer/shield both have knockbacks, and also the honor trait protective reviver. wondering if this works for wards as well, though i believe those are only knockdowns, if so, would like seeing the trait buffed to any actual stuns, knockdowns and knockbacks
Pure of sight: extra damage at range, includes scepter and staff, torch throw, if they ever fix it sword #3….
Hunters fort: free prot on virtue activation, works for any weapon.
Big game hunter: vuln when attacking Voj’ed enemies, GREAT for multi hit weapons such as GS, scepter, sword, and torch, but also allows for free vuln regardless.
So based on the OP saying that the trait line is focused around traps and LB, there is ONE trap trait (which honestly i wish had some more substance to it), and a total of TWO Longbow specific traits in the DH line, Hunter’s determination, and heavy light, which were not included in the list above. EVERY other trait than those 3 can be used with other weapons, or actually help a set of weapons (Pure of sight for ranged, and big game hunter for mutli-hit attacks for more specific examples.)
Honestly, after being gone from the game for a while, and going through the forums about these changes, I really feel like so much of the guardian community doesnt even LOOK at what we have and what we are getting together in a bigger picture. Everyone except a select few look at the specialization and see nothing but Longbow and traps, and doesn’t even seem to look and see what could be done using different combinations.
For traps, sure melee can use it, but doesn’t mean they will. You expect people want a guardian in a group for his traps? And not to mention, if a trap is planted as a bomb,i.e. during melee combat, they will tick slower.
And regarding dealing extra damage to cripple enemies, just how many of source of cripples do you have? Bulwark you asked? how many guardians wielding shields these days? and even if they do, how much is the bubble recharge vs. cripple uptime? and we don’t pop shield 5 just for the cripple while angering everyone else by scattering the mobs? "what about your allies cripple? " you said? are we required allies to get benefit from our trait now?
Funny you sorta gloss over Pure of Sight even though it’s a forced trait, of course you don’t have any argument for that, it’s a forced trait for range options, i.e. we just lost one right there. No, fixing sword#1 wouldnt work, sword range is 600, don’t tell me you are gona position yourself at exact 600. Big Game Hunter is admittedly universal for both ranged and melee, and by the look of it,, looks like it’s a must-pick out of the 3 GM traits, but that would just one. And I throw your own words back at you : "doesnt even LOOK at what we have and what we are getting together in a bigger picture. " It’s ironic that you preach about “bigger picture” while discusses each traits in severely situational usage, situational combat circumstance (need allies for cripples, popping shield for 4 second cripples?).
You can make a melee DH build that doesn’t use a single trap or a bow and all you really lose out on is a single minor trait. That’s not that big of a deal. You also don’t need to take any of the cripple stuff.
First tier lets you add damage and immob to your virtue leap. That seems fine for melee since its melee that’s going to want to leap to an enemy and keep it in place. 2nd tier you can take Bulwark. A bigger and longer shield is pretty good for melee since it’ll allow you to negate range attacks on you and your team until you can get into melee range. Big Game Hunter is obviously amazing.
All 3 new virtues also work great for melee. Leaps are great for melee. Being able to block attacks is great for melee. The justice tether requires you to stay somewhat close to the enemy, so yet again just fine for melee.
If you’re not seeing any potential for melee with Dragonhunter you just aren’t looking hard enough. Or you’re really caught up on a single minor trait. But guess what? Not all minor traits are always going to be super useful or powerful for every build. Reaper has a minor trait that chills on fear. That’s really only going to be useful if you build around having a lot of fear sources. If you don’t, you’re only going to have one skill that fears so the minor trait is underwhelming.
You can make a melee DH build that doesn’t use a single trap or a bow and all you really lose out on is a single minor trait. That’s not that big of a deal. You also don’t need to take any of the cripple stuff.
First tier lets you add damage and immob to your virtue leap. That seems fine for melee since its melee that’s going to want to leap to an enemy and keep it in place. 2nd tier you can take Bulwark. A bigger and longer shield is pretty good for melee since it’ll allow you to negate range attacks on you and your team until you can get into melee range. Big Game Hunter is obviously amazing.
All 3 new virtues also work great for melee. Leaps are great for melee. Being able to block attacks is great for melee. The justice tether requires you to stay somewhat close to the enemy, so yet again just fine for melee.
If you’re not seeing any potential for melee with Dragonhunter you just aren’t looking hard enough. Or you’re really caught up on a single minor trait. But guess what? Not all minor traits are always going to be super useful or powerful for every build. Reaper has a minor trait that chills on fear. That’s really only going to be useful if you build around having a lot of fear sources. If you don’t, you’re only going to have one skill that fears so the minor trait is underwhelming.
A dragonhunter that doesn’t use the bow is only hindering himself by not taking a traitline better suited to his build, IMO. It has no synergy with the base class.
You can make a melee DH build that doesn’t use a single trap or a bow and all you really lose out on is a single minor trait. That’s not that big of a deal. You also don’t need to take any of the cripple stuff.
First tier lets you add damage and immob to your virtue leap. That seems fine for melee since its melee that’s going to want to leap to an enemy and keep it in place. 2nd tier you can take Bulwark. A bigger and longer shield is pretty good for melee since it’ll allow you to negate range attacks on you and your team until you can get into melee range. Big Game Hunter is obviously amazing.
All 3 new virtues also work great for melee. Leaps are great for melee. Being able to block attacks is great for melee. The justice tether requires you to stay somewhat close to the enemy, so yet again just fine for melee.
If you’re not seeing any potential for melee with Dragonhunter you just aren’t looking hard enough. Or you’re really caught up on a single minor trait. But guess what? Not all minor traits are always going to be super useful or powerful for every build. Reaper has a minor trait that chills on fear. That’s really only going to be useful if you build around having a lot of fear sources. If you don’t, you’re only going to have one skill that fears so the minor trait is underwhelming.
A dragonhunter that doesn’t use the bow is only hindering himself by not taking a traitline better suited to his build, IMO. It has no synergy with the base class.
Completely not true.
Bad speculation is bad.
True within the DH specialization line there are some very exciting traits for a melee Guardian playstyle but one question I would ask with regards to traits like Pure of Sight is;
Should a minor trait’s effect lock you into either a Ranged or Melee playstyle?
For myself I believe ranged or melee playstyle’s should be decided through major traits, weapons & slotted skill choices.
Again I’ve had a blast theory crafting with the DH but have started to feel they’s just something not right with regards to the DH’s trait designs when compared to the new core specializations. And this is with regards to the Longbow & Traps with regards to the DHs traits. Note I also feel this a bit with the Chronomancer’s Shield & Wells as well as the Reaper’s Greatsword & Shouts.
I’ve started to feel the DH traits are abit like the Old Trait Lines Traits in design before the merging & baselining of these traits. When looking at the core traits we now have one over all trait that has a great effects on chosen skill category and weapon type, but the Elite Specialization traited skill category / weapon type traits feel very lacking and more like what these traits were in the Old Trait Lines. What I would like is for Specialization lines to be open to both ranged & melee playstyles without minors only benefiting one style.
I would also like to see skill category / weapon type traits in Elite Specializations having the same consistency as the Core Specializations. Also in the future I would love to see at least a second trait option added into the Specialization system (Maybe a 4th option in Grandmasters) for skill category / weapon type providing another playstyle option for these skills. Some examples (Weapon: 1H Sword, Meditations);
Sword
Meditations
(edited by Bezagron.7352)
You can make a melee DH build that doesn’t use a single trap or a bow and all you really lose out on is a single minor trait. That’s not that big of a deal. You also don’t need to take any of the cripple stuff.
First tier lets you add damage and immob to your virtue leap. That seems fine for melee since its melee that’s going to want to leap to an enemy and keep it in place. 2nd tier you can take Bulwark. A bigger and longer shield is pretty good for melee since it’ll allow you to negate range attacks on you and your team until you can get into melee range. Big Game Hunter is obviously amazing.
All 3 new virtues also work great for melee. Leaps are great for melee. Being able to block attacks is great for melee. The justice tether requires you to stay somewhat close to the enemy, so yet again just fine for melee.
If you’re not seeing any potential for melee with Dragonhunter you just aren’t looking hard enough. Or you’re really caught up on a single minor trait. But guess what? Not all minor traits are always going to be super useful or powerful for every build. Reaper has a minor trait that chills on fear. That’s really only going to be useful if you build around having a lot of fear sources. If you don’t, you’re only going to have one skill that fears so the minor trait is underwhelming.
A dragonhunter that doesn’t use the bow is only hindering himself by not taking a traitline better suited to his build, IMO. It has no synergy with the base class.
Completely not true.
Bad speculation is bad.
How is it completely not true? The traits are exclusively centered around the bow, cripple (which we have virtually none of outside of the bow), one awful trap trait for some awful traps, and a few traits for the new virtues. From what I’ve seen, access to the new virtues is not worth the opportunity cost of missing out on a more useful third traitline.
You can make a melee DH build that doesn’t use a single trap or a bow and all you really lose out on is a single minor trait. That’s not that big of a deal. You also don’t need to take any of the cripple stuff.
First tier lets you add damage and immob to your virtue leap. That seems fine for melee since its melee that’s going to want to leap to an enemy and keep it in place. 2nd tier you can take Bulwark. A bigger and longer shield is pretty good for melee since it’ll allow you to negate range attacks on you and your team until you can get into melee range. Big Game Hunter is obviously amazing.
All 3 new virtues also work great for melee. Leaps are great for melee. Being able to block attacks is great for melee. The justice tether requires you to stay somewhat close to the enemy, so yet again just fine for melee.
If you’re not seeing any potential for melee with Dragonhunter you just aren’t looking hard enough. Or you’re really caught up on a single minor trait. But guess what? Not all minor traits are always going to be super useful or powerful for every build. Reaper has a minor trait that chills on fear. That’s really only going to be useful if you build around having a lot of fear sources. If you don’t, you’re only going to have one skill that fears so the minor trait is underwhelming.
A dragonhunter that doesn’t use the bow is only hindering himself by not taking a traitline better suited to his build, IMO. It has no synergy with the base class.
Completely not true.
Bad speculation is bad.
How is it completely not true? The traits are exclusively centered around the bow, cripple (which we have virtually none of outside of the bow), one awful trap trait for some awful traps, and a few traits for the new virtues. From what I’ve seen, access to the new virtues is not worth the opportunity cost of missing out on a more useful third traitline.
I really can not understand how unimaginativ some of you are. yes there are traits centered around LB but NOT exclusivly!!
Defender’s Dogma + Shields of Courage is not a channeld skill
Combine it with Scepter #2, Symbols, GS #3 and amplified wrath // ad Bulwark for even more burns – we are talking about serious stacking. If it is viable is only a question of the final numbers.
Soaring devestation is a 3s root that does not even make sense with a bow
Dulled Senses is for knock backs. we have 6 knock backs outside of long bow.
Hunter’s Fortification most people do not like. its for every virtue. Even panic 12-16 secs pbaoe protection is good in my book. Combine it with Renewed Justice we get even more hard to crack. perma protection is no joke.
How is Big Game Hunter an exclusiv LB trait? 15% more damage for 10 secs and 10sec vurnability that does apply for every hit and reapply quickly as a cover conditon even if cleansed? we are basically talking about 25-30% damage boost.
Generalisation makes no sense at this point
You are absolutley right however that we wil have to make tough choices. But not because DH trait line is lacking but because others are good to.
Will it be meta? – maybe not. But is that really the point? because if it was they could have just deleted the options to trait anything anyways.
A dragonhunter that doesn’t use the bow is only hindering himself by not taking a traitline better suited to his build, IMO. It has no synergy with the base class.
Completely not true.
Bad speculation is bad.
How is it completely not true? The traits are exclusively centered around the bow, cripple (which we have virtually none of outside of the bow), one awful trap trait for some awful traps, and a few traits for the new virtues. From what I’ve seen, access to the new virtues is not worth the opportunity cost of missing out on a more useful third traitline.
I really can not understand how unimaginativ some of you are. yes there are traits centered around LB but NOT exclusivly!!
Defender’s Dogma + Shields of Courage is not a channeld skill
Combine it with Scepter #2, Symbols, GS #3 and amplified wrath // ad Bulwark for even more burns – we are talking about serious stacking. If it is viable is only a question of the final numbers.Soaring devestation is a 3s root that does not even make sense with a bow
Dulled Senses is for knock backs. we have 6 knock backs outside of long bow.
Hunter’s Fortification most people do not like. its for every virtue. Even panic 12-16 secs pbaoe protection is good in my book. Combine it with Renewed Justice we get even more hard to crack. perma protection is no joke.
How is Big Game Hunter an exclusiv LB trait? 15% more damage for 10 secs and 10sec vurnability that does apply for every hit and reapply quickly as a cover conditon even if cleansed? we are basically talking about 25-30% damage boost.
Generalisation makes no sense at this point
You are absolutley right however that we wil have to make tough choices. But not because DH trait line is lacking but because others are good to.
Will it be meta? – maybe not. But is that really the point? because if it was they could have just deleted the options to trait anything anyways.
That’s pretty much just reinforcing my point. The only thing that the traitline has to offer if you don’t take the bow is the changed virtues, which IMO is not worth sacrificing any of the existing traitlines for.
-Given how unreliable scepter is from long range, Pure of Sight will only benefit longbow users. You’ll essentially be penalized for being within melee range.
-Of the 6 knockbacks you mentioned I only know of one (or two if you count Banish, which knocks the target too far away from you for any sort of successful follow-up with a melee weapon). This trait was essentially placed in the game with the bow knockback trait in mind, as going for one without the other seems like it’d be pretty pointless. Besides, isn’t the point of a knockback to get the enemy away from you? Forcing your snare to rely on it seems quite counterintuitive to me.
-Because of this limited knockback access and zero access to cripple outside of the bow and the above trait, Dulled Senses is really a poor choice anywhere outside of a PvE encounter where a thief or ranger with sword can offer permanent cripple uptime. I’d rather go into Zeal and take Fiery Wrath so I can get my +10% damage with a condition that I actually have decent access to.
-Defender’s Dogma is a joke. I’d rather just take Amplified Wrath and deal more burning damage and gain burning on block instead of block just refreshing the passive effect of the virtue that I usually activate in fights anyway.
-Piercing Light… lol. If condition guard ever becomes a thing, it definitely will not be because of this trait. Putting traps on your utility bar will already limit your potential; traiting for them will just hinder you more.
I did say that the new virtues looked pretty neat earlier. I just don’t think that taking them will be worth sacrificing a current spec that actually provides class synergy.
You are not penalized for DH’s third minor trait. Not everything in a build had equal worth to everyone. Torch, Focus, Hammer, WoR, perhaps spirit weapons can all benefit from 10% damage at >600.
Just because you seem to not be able to make things work doesn’t mean everyone else can’t either.
Stacking in dungeons definitely gives Trap Condi Guards a place, if nowhere else. Although I think their Elite trap is still disappointing for their trait. I’d liked it to create a consistent vortex that hits multiple times, something like an ele underwater vortex on land, instead of just a single hit and a slow. That’s one condi clear and its done. (although the single bleed might shield it)
(edited by Lord Rheios.4152)
Dragons Maw creates a ward, so unless you have stability, your sick in there for the duration. If you do have stability, then now you’ve popped it, and a later CC will take effect. In PvE the ward might not be a big deal, but there’s probably going to be better options for that. In small scale PvP formats (or potentially even zerg fights) it could cause some problems.
That’s pretty much just reinforcing my point. The only thing that the traitline has to offer if you don’t take the bow is the changed virtues, which IMO is not worth sacrificing any of the existing traitlines for.
erm… I can see where you heading at but I think you have the wrong approach. You want to the DH Traitline to be the go to traitline for any build? by that definition you can argue that Honor does not make sense if you dont go for shouts (cause why symbols no ones stands in them), and Zeal is worthelss if you do not go for direct dps.
-Given how unreliable scepter is from long range, Pure of Sight will only benefit longbow users. You’ll essentially be penalized for being within melee range.
AA maybe but how is scepter #2+#3 ureliable from range? and again by that definiton you can argue that taking zeal panalizes me if I do not play with symbols, or if I do not center around blocks while taking valor with might of the protector. Still I am with you: could pure of sight be a little more useful across all builds > sure!
-Of the 6 knockbacks you mentioned I only know of one (or two if you count Banish, which knocks the target too far away from you for any sort of successful follow-up with a melee weapon). This trait was essentially placed in the game with the bow knockback trait in mind, as going for one without the other seems like it’d be pretty pointless. Besides, isn’t the point of a knockback to get the enemy away from you? Forcing your snare to rely on it seems quite counterintuitive to me.
1. Banish
2. Ring of Warding
3. Line of warding
4. Protective reviver
5. Shield of absorption
6. Sanctuary
So on the one hand you argue that banish knock back is too far but cripple is counterintuitiv? Knock backs are a great way of interrupt and control adding cripple to them is even better. It is a defensiv tool. argueing that you cant follow up melee dps is beside the point.
-Because of this limited knockback access and zero access to cripple outside of the bow and the above trait, Dulled Senses is really a poor choice anywhere outside of a PvE encounter where a thief or ranger with sword can offer permanent cripple uptime. I’d rather go into Zeal and take Fiery Wrath so I can get my +10% damage with a condition that I actually have decent access to.
you may want to reevaluate on ground of these. it might not change your opinion but may open up a little more use for gameplay.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sanctuary
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ward
of course they could add kitten cripple when immobilized to dulled senses but i feel that would get quite strong.
-Defender’s Dogma is a joke. I’d rather just take Amplified Wrath and deal more burning damage and gain burning on block instead of block just refreshing the passive effect of the virtue that I usually activate in fights anyway.
take both and do more damage? except for shelter all of our blocks are not channeled so you basically win everytime except if it activates at the 5th hit simultaniously. If you are argueing it is not worth taking a trailine for a minor trait. then well i agree with you but this is true for every other traitline as well.
-Piercing Light… lol. If condition guard ever becomes a thing, it definitely will not be because of this trait. Putting traps on your utility bar will already limit your potential; traiting for them will just hinder you more.
I agree. this needs more punch.
I did say that the new virtues looked pretty neat earlier. I just don’t think that taking them will be worth sacrificing a current spec that actually provides class synergy.
you are entitled to your opinion but I do think what you are asking for is a meta trait line. you do not want to take a traitline that makes you better in every aspect of what you already good at.
erm… I can see where you heading at but I think you have the wrong approach. You want to the DH Traitline to be the go to traitline for any build? by that definition you can argue that Honor does not make sense if you dont go for shouts (cause why symbols no ones stands in them), and Zeal is worthelss if you do not go for direct dps.
AA maybe but how is scepter #2+#3 ureliable from range? and again by that definiton you can argue that taking zeal panalizes me if I do not play with symbols, or if I do not center around blocks while taking valor with might of the protector. Still I am with you: could pure of sight be a little more useful across all builds > sure!
1. Banish
2. Ring of Warding
3. Line of warding
4. Protective reviver
5. Shield of absorption
6. SanctuarySo on the one hand you argue that banish knock back is too far but cripple is counterintuitiv? Knock backs are a great way of interrupt and control adding cripple to them is even better. It is a defensiv tool. argueing that you cant follow up melee dps is beside the point.
you may want to reevaluate on ground of these. it might not change your opinion but may open up a little more use for gameplay.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sanctuary
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wardof course they could add kitten cripple when immobilized to dulled senses but i feel that would get quite strong.
take both and do more damage? except for shelter all of our blocks are not channeled so you basically win everytime except if it activates at the 5th hit simultaniously. If you are argueing it is not worth taking a trailine for a minor trait. then well i agree with you but this is true for every other traitline as well.
I agree. this needs more punch.
you are entitled to your opinion but I do think what you are asking for is a meta trait line. you do not want to take a traitline that makes you better in every aspect of what you already good at.
Half of scepter’s damage is from the autoattack, so you’re not going to be doing enough damage with just Smite to make this trait worthwhile.
Sorry, but wards and Sanctuary do not count as reliable knockbacks. They require the enemy to run into them in order to proc. Also Protective Reviver is very situational, so I wouldn’t really see that as counting either.
The point behind my cripple/knockback argument is that if you’re using a melee weapon, a knockback is intended to be used to keep the enemy away from you. What’s the point of tying our cripple access to it, when the cripple is meant to provide the opposite effect?
Why would I ever want to make use of Defender’s Dogma when I could just use the active spear and gain a 15% damage increase? It’s a silly trait that will have virtually no impact on a fight.
I’m not looking for a “meta” spec, I’m just looking for something that will actually fit with current builds, and won’t be conflicting with almost everything the current guardian has to offer. Is that really too much to ask for?
Half of scepter’s damage is from the autoattack, so you’re not going to be doing enough damage with just Smite to make this trait worthwhile.
Sorry, but wards and Sanctuary do not count as reliable knockbacks. They require the enemy to run into them in order to proc. Also Protective Reviver is very situational, so I wouldn’t really see that as counting either.
Seems to me we are moving from “no knowledge of all the knock backs” to “none viable knock backs” a bit too quickly. ^^ The real question if the cripple is helpful in what these skills do? I think we can answer this with a yes.
The point behind my cripple/knockback argument is that if you’re using a melee weapon, a knockback is intended to be used to keep the enemy away from you. What’s the point of tying our cripple access to it, when the cripple is meant to provide the opposite effect?
maybe because we have several knockbacks that actually work well with your logic. JI+Ring fits this like a glove. you teleport in, he tries to get away he falls, he limps, good stuff. even more so hit him with banish right after add to more cripples. staff can do the same. keep them from running or give your more time to run. cripple is a two way street, as is knock back – at least for guardian.
I understand all your concerns, but this one really seems unwarrented.
Why would I ever want to make use of Defender’s Dogma when I could just use the active spear and gain a 15% damage increase? It’s a silly trait that will have virtually no impact on a fight.
because it is “only” a 10 second increase. And 20 stacks of burn for 5secs might be favorable to only 3 stacks for 10 secs (depending on the final numbers) and if you build for condi damage which with active spear you most likely will not.
I’m not looking for a “meta” spec, I’m just looking for something that will actually fit with current builds, and won’t be conflicting with almost everything the current guardian has to offer. Is that really too much to ask for?
no its not. but maybe this is the limiting factor for you (for the moment). you are looking at what it can improve instead of the other way around.
you make it look they there is neither a viable nor a fun option (outside of LB I guess) what so ever.
(edited by Asmodal.6489)
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