Guild Wars 2

I’m very much for the idea for more Utility for Deflecting shot instead of just more damage!

Some suggestions, due do it being a skill shot, there can be many ways it can be rewarding to land this move either at the enemy or at allies.

- Make it heal allies it passes through?

- CC multi enemies so you can land skillfull interrupts or peel for allies? Like ranger 4 but less of a knock back and can hit multiple targets it passes through.

- Add soft cc condis like, blind, chill, cripple (would work awesome with the cripple trait!), or immobilize?

-Give a boon or boons to allies it passes through?

-Make it reflect instead of destroy projectiles?

-Make it a much slower projectile, enough so you can run along it, with some of the added benefits mentioned above, or make it a ground target aoe that creates a dome with the same affects?

- Reveal… Kappa*

Karl McLain.5604:

Symbol of Energy: It’s really hard to place this in a position on allies/enemies without them being gone by the time the arrow gets there. Upping the missile velocity by ~60% and allowing it to be fired behind you.

Thanks for your constructive feedback, everyone. I’ve got to head out for now. We’ll be back with more stuff, like traits, soon.

-Karl

SweetBabyJesus Yes!!!

Karl McLain.5604:

Deflecting Shot: We’re looking at increasing the damage values of this ability, so that it has a bit more impact to it.

As others have said, I don’t like the idea of making this more of a damaging skill and would like to see it remain as a utility. What could be an interesting idea is to make this skill do zero damage, but if it successfully destroys a projectile it explodes dealing damage and creates a Swirling Winds/Smoke Screen type of field that continues to destroy projectiles in the area. This way it remains more of a utility and rewards skillful play.

Aiden.5072:

Karl McLain.5604:

True Shot: To make this ability more rewarding for stopping you in place, we’re looking at further increasing the damage.

What if instead of rooting you in place, it just deals bonus damage if you aren’t moving? That way the player can decide, “Do I want to keep moving and deal less damage, or am I in position I can stop and make a True Shot while standing still thus dealing bonus damage?”

Nice idea. I could see a trait adding even more damage when standing still.

For me, the main issue with virtues is that their cooldowns are a bit high for their active skills, and they also have the disadvantage of removing the passive effects in the process. Even when you compare virtues to other class mechanic skills, the cooldowns are quite long. I don’t really understand why they are so long, but it just seems a bit overkill to me.

I think the best way to give dragon hunters more options when it comes to their virtues, is to add a grandmaster spec that causes virtues to retain their passive effects when you activate them (kinda like the elementalist grandmaster trait that causes signets to retain their passive effects). This would promote the use of active skills for guardians without making them feel like their suffering a big loss for it.

They can honestly remove that knockback bow grandmaster trait and replace it with the suggestion above. It is, quite honestly, the worst idea for a trait I have ever seen in this game yet. If ranger longbow knockbacks weren’t bad enough already, given all the complaints about them on these forums, imagine something similar, but automatic. It would be a disaster waiting to happen.

Karl McLain.5604:

While the changes listed are the ones you’ll be seeing in the next beta weekend, we haven’t stopped making changes as we work to improve the Dragonhunter specialization. Here’s a few more changes we’ve been playing with for the longbow.

Puncture Shot: Arrow velocity is slow! We’re looking at increasing it so that it’s less strafe-able. What we’ve got it at is ~66% increase, putting it at around Hip Shot (engineer rifle) velocity. We’re also looking at the base and bounce functionality.

True Shot: To make this ability more rewarding for stopping you in place, we’re looking at further increasing the damage.

Deflecting Shot: We’re looking at increasing the damage values of this ability, so that it has a bit more impact to it.

Symbol of Energy: It’s really hard to place this in a position on allies/enemies without them being gone by the time the arrow gets there. Upping the missile velocity by ~60% and allowing it to be fired behind you.

Thanks for your constructive feedback, everyone. I’ve got to head out for now. We’ll be back with more stuff, like traits, soon.

-Karl

Good changes! In my opnion Deflection Shot should block projectiles.

Virtues changes are good but Wings of Resolve need a “Evade” status while casting and possible a change in the range from 600 to 900 to be real useful.

Virtues traits need to be instant before the casting time.
Hunters fortification should add stability too.

Dulled Senses need to be knock back and knock down.
Hammer Banish need to be consider as a knock back

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

For me, the main issue with virtues is that their cooldowns are a bit high for their active skills, and they also have the disadvantage of removing the passive effects in the process. Even when you compare virtues to other class mechanic skills, the cooldowns are quite long. I don’t really understand why they are so long, but it just seems a bit overkill to me.

I think the best way to give dragon hunters more options when it comes to their virtues, is to add a grandmaster spec that causes virtues to retain their passive effects when you activate them (kinda like the elementalist grandmaster trait that causes signets to retain their passive effects). This would promote the use of active skills for guardians without making them feel like their suffering a big loss for it.

They can honestly remove that knockback bow grandmaster trait and replace it with the suggestion above. It is, quite honestly, the worst idea for a trait I have ever seen in this game yet. If ranger longbow knockbacks weren’t bad enough already, given all the complaints about them on these forums, imagine something similar, but automatic. It would be a disaster waiting to happen.

the longbow KB is the only shred of reliable CC dragonhunters have in spvp, if you want them to remove that, Anet better be adding a KB to deflecting shot to compensate.

Karl McLain.5604:

Thanks for your constructive feedback, everyone. I’ve got to head out for now. We’ll be back with more stuff, like traits, soon.

-Karl

Karl, not sure if you’re still scanning this thread but I thought I’d mention this here. A lot of discontent with the traps arises from losing some important sustain. A few thoughts on making traps more appealing when your bar is heavily made up of trap skills.

Purification. Add the following: When this trap is placed cleanse 1 condition on yourself. When this trap is triggered convert 2 conditions on you to boons.

Light’s Judgment. Add the following: When this trap is triggered the pulses also cleanse blindness and confusion from up to 5 allies in the trap radius.

Test of Faith. Add the following: Setting this trap is a stunbreak. When this trap is triggered it creates a light field.

Procession of Blades. Add the following: When this trap is triggered it pulses whirl finishers.

Dragon’s Maw. Add the following: Setting this trap also creates a water field for 10 seconds.

As far as traps go, my immediate concern is that they take twice as long to place as every other trap in the game. If traps had a half-second placement time, then they will become much more usable in combat.

why are we getting a longbow, when almost all of our abilities since day one are melee focused? I’m just not understanding this.

RollFzzlbeef.4092:

why are we getting a longbow, when almost all of our abilities since day one are melee focused? I’m just not understanding this.

Because it’s a new concept for the Guardian they want to introduce. Frankly, I don’t think more melee focused weapons and skills would add much to the Guardian profession. It’s also a clever answer to the mobility issue, since I don’t think we are getting the runspeed buffs people want to see on the class anytime soon.

Darknicrofia.2604:

Tenrai Senshi.2017:

For me, the main issue with virtues is that their cooldowns are a bit high for their active skills, and they also have the disadvantage of removing the passive effects in the process. Even when you compare virtues to other class mechanic skills, the cooldowns are quite long. I don’t really understand why they are so long, but it just seems a bit overkill to me.

I think the best way to give dragon hunters more options when it comes to their virtues, is to add a grandmaster spec that causes virtues to retain their passive effects when you activate them (kinda like the elementalist grandmaster trait that causes signets to retain their passive effects). This would promote the use of active skills for guardians without making them feel like their suffering a big loss for it.

They can honestly remove that knockback bow grandmaster trait and replace it with the suggestion above. It is, quite honestly, the worst idea for a trait I have ever seen in this game yet. If ranger longbow knockbacks weren’t bad enough already, given all the complaints about them on these forums, imagine something similar, but automatic. It would be a disaster waiting to happen.

the longbow KB is the only shred of reliable CC dragonhunters have in spvp, if you want them to remove that, Anet better be adding a KB to deflecting shot to compensate.

Well, to be fair, you do have traps to punish or restrict movement. However, if more control is needed, I’d rather it be in the form of a cripple or immobilize if it were an automatic skill based on a trait. At least that way you won’t accidentally knock back enemies out of damage zones when in team battles. In my opinion, knockbacks should always be manual, and always be under the control of the player, never automatic.

Obtena.7952:

RollFzzlbeef.4092:

why are we getting a longbow, when almost all of our abilities since day one are melee focused? I’m just not understanding this.

Because it’s a new concept for the Guardian they want to introduce. Frankly, I don’t think more melee focused weapons and skills would add much to the Guardian profession. It’s also a clever answer to the mobility issue, since I don’t think we are getting the runspeed buffs people want to see on the class anytime soon.

I get that, but it doesnt change the fact that you practically have to sacrifice a full 2 traitlines for it just to slot in a ranged spec. most of our other traits just arent designed to work with a ranged weapon.

I feel the bow is too disconnected from the guardian as a whole. The weapon feels like it has little to do with the profession. I get that it’s an attempt at a different play style, but it should have synergy with other guardian skills. I would love it if it would interact with some other traits. Throwing some kind of a block on it would let it interact with a ton of traits; aegis even more. It does have a symbol, which is good. A heal would be good, or maybe a trait that allows for some kind of sustain. Even boons are practically nowhere on bow, just stability when traited. My feeling if the bow were to have a few of these things, it would fit the guardian way more, and would mesh together much better.

Wulf.5431:

I feel the bow is too disconnected from the guardian as a whole. The weapon feels like it has little to do with the profession. I get that it’s an attempt at a different play style, but it should have synergy with other guardian skills. I would love it if it would interact with some other traits. Throwing some kind of a block on it would let it interact with a ton of traits; aegis even more. It does have a symbol, which is good. A heal would be good, or maybe a trait that allows for some kind of sustain. Even boons are practically nowhere on bow, just stability when traited. My feeling if the bow were to have a few of these things, it would fit the guardian way more, and would mesh together much better.

Bingo. The entirety of Dragonhunter is about as disjointed from the rest of the class as it can be without being two entirely separate entities.

Supreme justice doesn’t work with spear, as others have mentioned. That should be rectified for possibility of converting burn guard to longbow. Most of the changes noted in Karl’s post are pretty much where I thought dragonhunter fell flat on. Oh and the obstructed by ankle high hills bs.

How about the traps, if only one or two be create symbols, to sync better with the zeal line?

RollFzzlbeef.4092:

Obtena.7952:

RollFzzlbeef.4092:

why are we getting a longbow, when almost all of our abilities since day one are melee focused? I’m just not understanding this.

Because it’s a new concept for the Guardian they want to introduce. Frankly, I don’t think more melee focused weapons and skills would add much to the Guardian profession. It’s also a clever answer to the mobility issue, since I don’t think we are getting the runspeed buffs people want to see on the class anytime soon.

I get that, but it doesnt change the fact that you practically have to sacrifice a full 2 traitlines for it just to slot in a ranged spec. most of our other traits just arent designed to work with a ranged weapon.

What 2 traitlines would that be? Which traits are biased against ranged weapons, with the exception of some of the weapon-specific traits? Frankly, these things you’re talking about are made up.

Black Box.9312:

Bingo. The entirety of Dragonhunter is about as disjointed from the rest of the class as it can be without being two entirely separate entities.

And yet about half of my Guardians are gonna be rockin’ variations using this spec. It’s almost like some people have a broader vision of what the class could mean or be used for. It’s already proven good fun on my zerg-leader for WvW. As the changes get patched in it’s just gonna get better.

Nike.2631:

Black Box.9312:

Bingo. The entirety of Dragonhunter is about as disjointed from the rest of the class as it can be without being two entirely separate entities.

And yet about half of my Guardians are gonna be rockin’ variations using this spec. It’s almost like some people have a broader vision of what the class could mean or be used for. It’s already proven good fun on my zerg-leader for WvW. As the changes get patched in it’s just gonna get better.

Name 3 things in the Guardian’s base traitlines that effectively synergize with the Dragonhunter spec, or vice versa. It has to be at least equally effective in comparison to a non-Dragonhunter (i.e. Absolute Resolution doesn’t count because it’s not nearly as reliable on a DH).

Black Box.9312:

Nike.2631:

Black Box.9312:

Bingo. The entirety of Dragonhunter is about as disjointed from the rest of the class as it can be without being two entirely separate entities.

And yet about half of my Guardians are gonna be rockin’ variations using this spec. It’s almost like some people have a broader vision of what the class could mean or be used for. It’s already proven good fun on my zerg-leader for WvW. As the changes get patched in it’s just gonna get better.

Name 3 things in the Guardian’s base traitlines that effectively synergize with the Dragonhunter spec, or vice versa. It has to be at least equally effective in comparison to a non-Dragonhunter (i.e. Absolute Resolution doesn’t count because it’s not nearly as reliable on a DH).

You are not obliged to take traps if you’re going into the dragonhunter trait line, if you just get the longbow and run a regular shout setup (replacing virtues with dragonhunter line) you’re able to support the backline way easier. Sharing stability, condition cleanse, more boons and strength in numbers with people who are usually too far away from the melee. You’ll also be closer to your ranged people to pick them up with the bubble when they go down. Longbow is a more reliable way to pump out aoe ranged damage than scepter no matter how you look at it.

Most virtues get downgraded, that’s true, but wings of resolve heals for about 50% more, so if you can accurately cast this it should be better than your regular f2.

You should give dragonhunter and longbow some of the credit it deserves.

I’ve not tested Dragonhunter yet as I only pre-purchased a few days ago, but from what I’ve read and seen alot of these seems like positive changes (that’s the second list we were given, I also feel the OP with the first list of changes completely missed the mark), but there’s a few more things you could do that I think would be beneficial and not imbalanced to making the Dragonhunter and the Longbow a worthwhile spec.

True Shot – Instead of upping the damage constantly till people are happy with the fact it roots (which, for a big hit skill like this, I’m perfectly happy with – it makes sense to stop to line-up a big shot, so long as the pay-off is worth it – look at Warrior’s Killshot for example), how about giving it Boon Removal on the target?

Boon Removal on a Guardian, you say? What sorcery is this? Well, for one, technically we already have Boon Removal access via the Boon Removal weapon sigil, but more specifically at one point it was an inherent part of the class too – we used to have a trait that would remove a Boon from the enemy on application of Virtue of Justice, that got removed with the specialization patch (the trait was called as Searing Flames).

Considering the name of skill, it seems like it would thematically fit – “True Shot” would remove your targets enchantments and render him his true-self. It goes with the whole “nothing can protect you from the light of justice!” thing. A big hit that prior to applying it’s damage also removes your opponent’s defences? Sounds like it could work.

Alternatively, the old Searing Flame trait could literally be reapplied to Pure of Sight (making it giving you +10% damage at foes at over 600 range, in addition to removing a boon on Burn proc at under 600 range, with a 10-20sec ICD). This would finally give this compulsory, unoptional minor trait some more synergy with core guard specs other than it being totally wasted on any existing Guard other than Sceptre users, or the new Longbow, and as Dragonhunter seems like it’s rather lacklustre in sPvP, this would really help it have a place there too.

Traps – I’m with Nike.2631 on this, the biggest issue as I see it with Traps is that by taking traps you are sacrificing all your utility, and when you are a class like Guard with the low HP pool we have, you really need that utility you find on your typical Meditation or Shout Guards – namely condition removal, and stun breaks.

I wouldn’t know exactly which ones to pick for what, but while the actual numbers and amounts are off a bit, Nike’s list:

Purification. Add the following: When this trap is placed cleanse 1 condition on yourself. When this trap is triggered convert 2 conditions on you to boons.
Light’s Judgment. Add the following: When this trap is triggered the pulses also cleanse blindness and confusion from up to 5 allies in the trap radius.
Test of Faith. Add the following: Setting this trap is a stunbreak. When this trap is triggered it creates a light field.
Procession of Blades. Add the following: When this trap is triggered it pulses whirl finishers.
Dragon’s Maw. Add the following: Setting this trap also creates a water field for 10 seconds.

Seems to be roughly along the correct lines. At least one of the Guard Traps needs to be a Stun-Break, and at least one needs to be able to remove multiple Conditions (or as Nike suggested, have them all remove conditions when traited, though I’d probably go with 1 To Boon Convert or 2 Removals each instead of 1 Removal + 2 To Boon Converts each – that seems a little too strong). You could just change the Healing Trap to Remove Condis the same way Healing Spring does for Rangers if you didn’t want to go down the Trait-method instead. Guardian could do with a direct on-demand condi-removal Healing Skill anyway, the Signet’s passive 10 second removal really doesn’t cut it (it’s not always going to proc at the time you need it).

I think if Traps were given access to these two things (Stun Break and Condition Removal), you’d find they suddenly become a tonne more viable and less people would be complaining about them.

Having a Combo Finisher or two in there wouldn’t hurt either, would certainly make them more interesting, though I don’t think it’s strictly neccessary. Dragon’s Maw seems like a solid place to stick a Blast Finisher (which would also give the skill some more worth, most people seem to think it’s rather lacklustre as an elite skill at the moment), and Procession of Blades a Whirl Finisher.

TL;DR: Add Boon Removal to True Shot and/or Pure of Sight. Give Traps access to Stunbreaks and Condition Removal. Either via specific traps, or for all traps via Traits.

Wandelaar.3746:

Black Box.9312:

Nike.2631:

Black Box.9312:

Bingo. The entirety of Dragonhunter is about as disjointed from the rest of the class as it can be without being two entirely separate entities.

And yet about half of my Guardians are gonna be rockin’ variations using this spec. It’s almost like some people have a broader vision of what the class could mean or be used for. It’s already proven good fun on my zerg-leader for WvW. As the changes get patched in it’s just gonna get better.

Name 3 things in the Guardian’s base traitlines that effectively synergize with the Dragonhunter spec, or vice versa. It has to be at least equally effective in comparison to a non-Dragonhunter (i.e. Absolute Resolution doesn’t count because it’s not nearly as reliable on a DH).

You are not obliged to take traps if you’re going into the dragonhunter trait line, if you just get the longbow and run a regular shout setup (replacing virtues with dragonhunter line) you’re able to support the backline way easier. Sharing stability, condition cleanse, more boons and strength in numbers with people who are usually too far away from the melee. You’ll also be closer to your ranged people to pick them up with the bubble when they go down. Longbow is a more reliable way to pump out aoe ranged damage than scepter no matter how you look at it.

Most virtues get downgraded, that’s true, but wings of resolve heals for about 50% more, so if you can accurately cast this it should be better than your regular f2.

You should give dragonhunter and longbow some of the credit it deserves.

A Shout Guardian that takes DH is sacrificing either Valor, Honor, or Virtues. DH currently has none of that sustain, condi clear, or team support that those 3 traitlines do, so you’d be effectively devaluing yourself for the sake of a ranged weapon that won’t make up for your lack of damage anyway.

This is how I envision a fixed Dragonhunter Traitline.
(Fixed meaning Viable, not Amazing)

Minors
Virtuous Action <No Change>

Defender’s Dogma <Scrap>
NEW Vigilante’s Justice <Replaces Defender’s Dogma as a Minor>
You retain Virtue of Justice’s passive effect while Virtue of Justice is on cooldown.
(This way we can actually catch up with Warrior Elite spec’s Burning)
(The theme here is Batman Hunting down the criminals using his own Justice.)

Pure of Sight <Sent to Adept>
NEW Hunter’s Stride <Replaces Pure of Sight as a Minor>
You movement speed is increased by 10%. You move 5% faster for each Passive Virtue effect you have on you. (You move 5% faster for each Virtue that is not on cooldown).
Maximum of 25% increased movement speed, provided you did not use any of your Virtues.
(Have you ever seen the prey run away from a Hunter without a chance of the Hunter catching up with the prey? This is REALLY really needed. A Hunter must have a way to chase after the prey.)

Adepts
Piercing Light <No Change>

Soaring Devastation <No Change>

Zealot’s Aggression <Merged with Dulled Senses>
Pure of Sight <Moved here to Adept>

Master
Bulwark <No Change>

Dulled Senses <Merged with Zealot’s Aggression>
Enemies you knock back are crippled. Deal extra damage to crippled enemies. When you cripple an enemy, you also make them vulnerable.

Hunter’s Determination <Improved>
True shot grants stability for each enemy struck. Longbow skills recharge 20% faster.

Grandmaster
Big Game Hunter <No Change>

Heavy Light <Improved>
Longbow arrows knock back and inflict Slow to enemies struck within the range threshold.
(The trait needs something to make it worth not taking Big Game Hunter. “Heavy” often means “Slow”.)

NEW Hunter’s Fortification <Changed Functionality>
Foes that trigger your Traps are Weakened(5s). You gain Protection(5s) if you are standing on the Trap when it triggers.
(Fortifying a spot by using Traps. If you step in the Hunter’s Lair/area, you fight on the Hunter’s terms, not your own.)

Along with Longbow and Virtues changes, this would be at the level of “Fixed”. Improvements Welcomed.
Spear of Justice needs 1/4 cast and increased projectile speed just like Longbow.

Turtle Dragon.9241:

This is how I envision a fixed Dragonhunter Traitline.
(Fixed meaning Viable, not Amazing)

…..

this is how sad the state of guards’ mentality is, guards just ask for viability, not even to be amazing

Black Box.9312:

Wandelaar.3746:

Black Box.9312:

Nike.2631:

Black Box.9312:

Bingo. The entirety of Dragonhunter is about as disjointed from the rest of the class as it can be without being two entirely separate entities.

And yet about half of my Guardians are gonna be rockin’ variations using this spec. It’s almost like some people have a broader vision of what the class could mean or be used for. It’s already proven good fun on my zerg-leader for WvW. As the changes get patched in it’s just gonna get better.

Name 3 things in the Guardian’s base traitlines that effectively synergize with the Dragonhunter spec, or vice versa. It has to be at least equally effective in comparison to a non-Dragonhunter (i.e. Absolute Resolution doesn’t count because it’s not nearly as reliable on a DH).

You are not obliged to take traps if you’re going into the dragonhunter trait line, if you just get the longbow and run a regular shout setup (replacing virtues with dragonhunter line) you’re able to support the backline way easier. Sharing stability, condition cleanse, more boons and strength in numbers with people who are usually too far away from the melee. You’ll also be closer to your ranged people to pick them up with the bubble when they go down. Longbow is a more reliable way to pump out aoe ranged damage than scepter no matter how you look at it.

Most virtues get downgraded, that’s true, but wings of resolve heals for about 50% more, so if you can accurately cast this it should be better than your regular f2.

You should give dragonhunter and longbow some of the credit it deserves.

A Shout Guardian that takes DH is sacrificing either Valor, Honor, or Virtues. DH currently has none of that sustain, condi clear, or team support that those 3 traitlines do, so you’d be effectively devaluing yourself for the sake of a ranged weapon that won’t make up for your lack of damage anyway.

Honestly, I don’t think that matters if you want to hang back and play your fiddle with a longbow ANYWAYS. It’s a completely different approach to playing the class. It’s not about devaluing yourself; it’s about giving people something different to play. I don’t even think a build focused on LB would even include shouts. Who would even benefit from that? Think about what you are doing if your using a LB. It makes no sense.

You all need to understand that if you don’t want to play your Guardian different than you do now … there is literally NOTHING for you in the DH spec. It’s a PVP spec focused on ranged defense of points and being screened. If that’s not what you want to do, just drop the whole “I hate DH” (because … it’s NOT going away or changing concept/name/skills/whatever) and stick to what you do now. In fact, be HAPPY about it because it’s your best option and it’s a kitten good one too.

Black Box.9312:

Name 3 things in the Guardian’s base traitlines that effectively synergize with the Dragonhunter spec, or vice versa. It has to be at least equally effective in comparison to a non-Dragonhunter (i.e. Absolute Resolution doesn’t count because it’s not nearly as reliable on a DH).

Before I start, would you mind telling me how many/which different builds you use on a Guardian? Not much point in me explaining how 75% of the traits work with range if you already believe 90% of Guard traits aren’t worth taking…

Obtena.7952:

Black Box.9312:

Wandelaar.3746:

Black Box.9312:

Nike.2631:

Black Box.9312:

Bingo. The entirety of Dragonhunter is about as disjointed from the rest of the class as it can be without being two entirely separate entities.

And yet about half of my Guardians are gonna be rockin’ variations using this spec. It’s almost like some people have a broader vision of what the class could mean or be used for. It’s already proven good fun on my zerg-leader for WvW. As the changes get patched in it’s just gonna get better.

Name 3 things in the Guardian’s base traitlines that effectively synergize with the Dragonhunter spec, or vice versa. It has to be at least equally effective in comparison to a non-Dragonhunter (i.e. Absolute Resolution doesn’t count because it’s not nearly as reliable on a DH).

You are not obliged to take traps if you’re going into the dragonhunter trait line, if you just get the longbow and run a regular shout setup (replacing virtues with dragonhunter line) you’re able to support the backline way easier. Sharing stability, condition cleanse, more boons and strength in numbers with people who are usually too far away from the melee. You’ll also be closer to your ranged people to pick them up with the bubble when they go down. Longbow is a more reliable way to pump out aoe ranged damage than scepter no matter how you look at it.

Most virtues get downgraded, that’s true, but wings of resolve heals for about 50% more, so if you can accurately cast this it should be better than your regular f2.

You should give dragonhunter and longbow some of the credit it deserves.

A Shout Guardian that takes DH is sacrificing either Valor, Honor, or Virtues. DH currently has none of that sustain, condi clear, or team support that those 3 traitlines do, so you’d be effectively devaluing yourself for the sake of a ranged weapon that won’t make up for your lack of damage anyway.

Honestly, I don’t think that matters if you want to hang back and play your fiddle with a longbow ANYWAYS. It’s a completely different approach to playing the class. It’s not about devaluing yourself; it’s about giving people something different to play. I don’t even think a build focused on LB would even include shouts. Who would even benefit from that? Think about what you are doing if your using a LB. It makes no sense.

You all need to understand that if you don’t want to play your Guardian different than you do now … there is literally NOTHING for you in the DH spec. It’s a PVP spec focused on ranged defense of points and being screened. If that’s not what you want to do, just drop the whole “I hate DH” (because … it’s NOT going away or changing concept/name/skills/whatever) and stick to what you do now. In fact, be HAPPY about it because it’s your best option and it’s a kitten good one too.

He specifically mentioned running bow with shouts. And also I do want a different way of playing Guardian (or at least a different variation of one of our current builds), but it has to be one that isn’t objectively worse than what we already have. Neither of those are going to be provided by the Dragonhunter.

They’ve missed the mark so many times with the class that I don’t even really play it anymore (which is sad considering the fact that thematically it’s still far and away my favorite). I was really, really hoping for a nice refreshing change of pace with the elite spec, but I’ve clearly been disappointed by the lack of effort brought forth. It’s pretty sad when I’m more excited for the elite specs of my two least played classes (Warrior and Necro) than I am for my main.

I’m happy to see the changes to projectile speed, that should make things much better!
I’m definitely on board with the idea of slowing down Deflecting Shot and making it a reflect instead of just upping the strength . . . that feels like a cheap (or at least temporary) fix.

Trait fixes still need some work though. I would truly love to see Hunter’s Fortification done away with entirely as it feels rather tacked on, out of place and completely dependent upon also taking Virtues line. Instead I think it would be really fantastic to have a Grandmaster trait that concerns a unique, but seemingly unappreciated aspect of the Guardian: the Ward.

As Longbow is the 3rd weapon with a Ward, it would make sense for the Dragonhunter and would really increase synergy with other play styles (for those who don’t remember, Staff and Hammer are the other two weapons).

I’m not 100% sure what that trait should be, but perhaps something with multiple effects such as causing Traps to count as Wards upon being triggered and making Wards grant allies a small amount of Retaliation. This would then reinforce the idea of controlling the battlefield that Wards (and DH) seem to be going for without being particularly overpowered.

A trait such as this would then create even more synergy with the Virtues line due to its Retaliation traits.

All 3 weapons with Wards also have Symbols so Zeal would also have a natural synergy, but even a weapon such as GS would work well through stacking Retaliation because of its symbol. (Mace already has some nice synergy because of Defender’s Dogma, at least in theory).

Granting retaliation with this trait would then also give Dragonhunter some interplay with Radiance as well through traits like Radiant Retaliation and Retribution.

Valor would even work well with this trait because of Altruistic Healing and again, Defender’s Dogma.

Naturally Honor with Write of Persistence and Honorable Staff would benefit as well.

I’m definitely not suggesting making the Retaliation amount overpowered by any means, but maybe something rather balanced like the 1s application of Symbol of Wrath. Maybe this idea sounds a little powerful, but I can’t see it being any more so than Chronomancer or Berserker, potentially. Either way, I’d still love to see a trait making better use of Wards.

Just my suggestion, I guess. XD

TL;DR: Longbow changes sound decent so far, but would like to see slower, reflecting Deflecting Shot. More than that though, I want to see a Grandmaster trait that makes traps count as Wards on activation and grant allies short duration Retaliation (sort of like Symbol of Wrath), instead of the horrible Hunter’s Fortification. This would have a lot of synergy (I break down a lot of examples about).

Black Box.9312:

And also I do want a different way of playing Guardian (or at least a different variation of one of our current builds), but it has to be one that isn’t objectively worse than what we already have. Neither of those are going to be provided by the Dragonhunter.

I also don’t believe it will be better than current builds considering Anet think they have the class where they want it for balance.

On the other hand, I don’t think anyone has enough information to objectively say how DH will perform at release and relative to all the other elites and vanilla professions. Frankly, I think you’re just hating because you dislike the whole concept. I think that’s unreasonable.

Obtena.7952:

Black Box.9312:

And also I do want a different way of playing Guardian (or at least a different variation of one of our current builds), but it has to be one that isn’t objectively worse than what we already have. Neither of those are going to be provided by the Dragonhunter.

I also don’t believe it will be better than current builds considering Anet think they have the class where they want it for balance.

On the other hand, I don’t think anyone has enough information to objectively say how DH will perform at release and relative to all the other elites and vanilla professions. Frankly, I think you’re just hating because you dislike the whole concept. I think that’s unreasonable.

Nope not really instant virtues provide the guardian with better active defenses which the DH lacks, meanwhile all channeled DH virtues aren’t meaningful enough to justify the channel with the exception of F3 in WvW or an intense group fight. Trueshot is inferior to scepter/torch since it restricts movement preventing DH from delivering decent damage while chasing that base guardian can do better. Traps are OK for wvw with trapper runes but meditation will still be the staple for pvp and shouts/consecrations for pve. So what does DH bring to guard? A better ranged AA than scepter (maybe after these changes that Karl and the other Dev announced), unreliable access to cripple, a slow, a reveal, and more vulnerability.

Vizardlorde.8243:

Trueshot is inferior to scepter/torch since it restricts movement preventing DH from delivering decent damage while chasing that base guardian can do better.

I so hope we see a 25% move speed trait in DH. I really do.

But until then I’m looking forward to cripple being made innate on the Longbow auto-attack and not just when there are two targets trying to run.

Vizardlorde.8243:

Obtena.7952:

Black Box.9312:

And also I do want a different way of playing Guardian (or at least a different variation of one of our current builds), but it has to be one that isn’t objectively worse than what we already have. Neither of those are going to be provided by the Dragonhunter.

I also don’t believe it will be better than current builds considering Anet think they have the class where they want it for balance.

On the other hand, I don’t think anyone has enough information to objectively say how DH will perform at release and relative to all the other elites and vanilla professions. Frankly, I think you’re just hating because you dislike the whole concept. I think that’s unreasonable.

Nope not really instant virtues provide the guardian with better active defenses which the DH lacks, meanwhile all channeled DH virtues aren’t meaningful enough to justify the channel with the exception of F3 in WvW or an intense group fight. Trueshot is inferior to scepter/torch since it restricts movement preventing DH from delivering decent damage while chasing that base guardian can do better. Traps are OK for wvw with trapper runes but meditation will still be the staple for pvp and shouts/consecrations for pve. So what does DH bring to guard? A better ranged AA than scepter (maybe after these changes that Karl and the other Dev announced), unreliable access to cripple, a slow, a reveal, and more vulnerability.

And if that makes it to live, then you would have a point. WE aren’t live, we haven’t had the opportunity to play it’s final version.

Just something I’ve been thinking a lot about in regards to Dragon Hunter.

When you’re extremely immobile and slow and you toss some root via skill kit on top of that it just doesn’t make me enjoy myself when I play the class. For me personally I would like to either see some running speed given or the root removed.

If I wanted to play a game where I stand still and attack I’d go back 15-20+ years and play MMORPGs back then. xD

Yes, that’s why you have the choice to not use it. Working as intended. Almost all the negative feedback I see for DH seems to start with the premise it’s suppose to be better or players must find a way to incorporate it into their game. Not true.

CandyHearts.6025:

Just something I’ve been thinking a lot about in regards to Dragon Hunter.

When you’re extremely immobile and slow and you toss some root via skill kit on top of that it just doesn’t make me enjoy myself when I play the class. For me personally I would like to either see some running speed given or the root removed.

Or you could play any of the other ranged builds in the game that already allow you to do that.

It’s not just a question of being different from the baseline Guardian — there is some effort being made to create a new play experience altogether. One where you have to think 3-4 seconds in advance and choose the spot you’re going to shoot from… and be rewarded handsomely for it.

But please keep banging the “we want/rely on/are completely dependent on our mobility” drum . All it does is help make them aware of how steep the price is for not having it and how big the payoff should be for being able to work under that deliberate handicap. Frankly as the game’s premier blinds/aegis class, I think I can keep from going down just because I parked for two seconds to get a beefy shot off and maintain my perma-stability (honestly, I can hardly believe they’re gonna let us have a 1 button perma-stab. I mean holy heck… how does that not make people giddy?)

Obtena.7952:

Yes, that’s why you have the choice to not use it. Working as intended. Almost all the negative feedback I see for DH seems to start with the premise it’s suppose to be better or players must find a way to incorporate it into their game. Not true.

People have every right to be disappointed that the shiny new playstyle that they were promised is garbage. Sure, people can choose to not use it, but that doesn’t give them any less right to be disappointed at how subpar it is.

Black Box.9312:

Obtena.7952:

Yes, that’s why you have the choice to not use it. Working as intended. Almost all the negative feedback I see for DH seems to start with the premise it’s suppose to be better or players must find a way to incorporate it into their game. Not true.

People have every right to be disappointed that the shiny new playstyle that they were promised is garbage. Sure, people can choose to not use it, but that doesn’t give them any less right to be disappointed at how subpar it is.

I am so looking forward to taking up this conversation 3 months after HoT launches – there’s really only two outcomes: either the revised and refined Dragonhunter has at least one meta-worthy build constructed around the tools it offers… or we’ll have the accumulated metrics data to show that it needs to be buffed until that is true.

Nike.2631:

Black Box.9312:

Obtena.7952:

Yes, that’s why you have the choice to not use it. Working as intended. Almost all the negative feedback I see for DH seems to start with the premise it’s suppose to be better or players must find a way to incorporate it into their game. Not true.

People have every right to be disappointed that the shiny new playstyle that they were promised is garbage. Sure, people can choose to not use it, but that doesn’t give them any less right to be disappointed at how subpar it is.

I am so looking forward to taking up this conversation 3 months after HoT launches – there’s really only two outcomes: either the revised and refined Dragonhunter has at least one meta-worthy build constructed around the tools it offers… or we’ll have the accumulated metrics data to show that it needs to be buffed until that is true.

Or a third option they’ll nerf monk’s focus to the ground to make medi guardian less appealing, therefore DH will be GUD. RITE GUISE? ( looking at virtues is not as unlikely as I would like it to be)

Nike.2631:

Black Box.9312:

Obtena.7952:

Yes, that’s why you have the choice to not use it. Working as intended. Almost all the negative feedback I see for DH seems to start with the premise it’s suppose to be better or players must find a way to incorporate it into their game. Not true.

People have every right to be disappointed that the shiny new playstyle that they were promised is garbage. Sure, people can choose to not use it, but that doesn’t give them any less right to be disappointed at how subpar it is.

I am so looking forward to taking up this conversation 3 months after HoT launches – there’s really only two outcomes: either the revised and refined Dragonhunter has at least one meta-worthy build constructed around the tools it offers… or we’ll have the accumulated metrics data to show that it needs to be buffed until that is true.

That wouldn’t be so bad if not for the fact that Anet has a terrible record of doing things in a timely manner. Besides, they decided they wanted to make traps more “traplike”, meaning that they’d have to go back on their word to make them anything more than barely functional, which is also doubtful.

Karl McLain.5604:

Hey all. Following up on what we talked about last week. Here’s a few more things that we’re looking at doing:

Longbow update

Deflecting Shot: The last time I posted, the note I had on this was a vague ‘damage increase’ thing, which met with fair opposition. We’ve had a little more time to look into the ability and have tweaked it a fair amount so that it can retain its primary defensive functionality and still reward you for reactive play. Here’s what we’ve got -

• Reduced missile velocity by 25% (it traveled too fast to really block much). Reduced after-cast by 300 milliseconds. Increased base damage by 13%. Destroying a projectile with this ability increases the damage it deals by 100%. Increased the blocking radius by 33%. The attack radius of this ability has not been increased.

• Symbol of Energy: Removed the burning on impact (no other symbol has an additional effect, so this felt weird). Increased damage dealt by 10%.

Virtues:

• Spear of Justice: Increased missile velocity by 100%. Reduced the casting speed from 3/4 second to 1/4 second.

• Shield of Courage: The shielding effect now occurs the moment this ability starts. Lowered after-cast by 200 milliseconds. We’re also looking into a better functionality for the shield.
  Where we’re at: Currently, you block all attacks for allies within the radius, but you don’t get any feedback for it… so we’re looking to improve that. The shield also doesn’t really benefit you, other than missile blocking (which is good, but feels like it should do more, being that you’re giving up instant casts). The current idea is to block attacks from the front (within the shield you’re projecting), but be vulnerable from the back to ensure counter-play.

• Wings of Resolve: We’re waiting to see how the current implementation plays out, being as the ability has a greatly increased healing application and has access to 3 seconds of immobilize.

Traits:
There’s been some merging and creation of new trait types for the Dragonhunter line. There are now a couple of direct defensive options, in addition to some stronger power/damage ones. The goal here was to give different clear avenues (damage, utility, virtues… with some overlap)

Adept – Piercing Light: The bleeding effect only really benefited a couple traps, where we wanted the effects of this trait to enhance each one in the same way.

• The bleeding functionality has been removed and will now daze enemies for 1 second when traps enter their ‘activating’ state.

Adept – Dulled Senses: Moved here from the Master tier! Enemies you knock back are crippled. Enemies you cripple receive Vulnerability. Reduced the vuln from 3 stacks for 5 seconds to 1 stack for 8 seconds.

Master – Hunter’s Determination: Drop a Fragments of Faith trap at your location when you’re crowd-controlled.

Master – Zealot’s Aggression: Deal extra damage to crippled enemies. Damage bonus increased from 7% to 10%. Justice’s passive effect cripples enemies (1.5s).

Grandmaster – Hunter’s Fortification: The area effect protection was bland and, while defensive, didn’t really portray the more selfish dragonhunter nature that likes to hold an advantage over their enemies. We’ve replaced this with a bit different defensive nature that’s also more synergistic with Hunter’s Determination.

• Remove conditions when blocking attacks (1 per block, ICD 1 second). Receive 10% less damage when you have no conditions on you.

Grandmaster – Heavy Light: Merged the aspect of Hunter’s Determination.

• Longbow arrows knock back enemies that are within the range threshold (10s ICD). Gain stability (1 stack, 5 seconds) when you knock an enemy back in this fashion.

Please keep in mind that (as before) these things won’t be in the next BWE, but in a future update. As always, thanks for your constructive feedback!

Cheers,
-Karl

not a 10/10, but i like what i’m reading.

thx karl

edit: to specify, thanks for chiming in w/ the direction you are heading. it’s appreciated

Way to go karl!
Things are looking a lot better. We are getting there.
I like most of the changes.

Thks for the update. Keep it up!!!!

The changes are interesting. Looking forward to testing them in a future BWE.

Thanks Karl.

Nice to see you are working on the improvements Karl.
Although, I personally would like to see improvement on Pure of Sight trait and range increase on Wings of Resolve. I hope you are considering these changes as well.

The Vuln application on Dulled Senses is now insignificant. 1 stack for 8 seconds is pretty weak. I get it’s an adept trait and should be too strong but we have nothing that affects mobs when stacked with vuln other than our direct damage, so 1% for 8 seconds is not a very interesting effect.

My other concern (without remembering exactly what the other traits do in DH) is that it seems you give obvious trait choices. What incentive do I have to not take Dulled Senses, Zealot’s Aggression and Heavy Light? Seems that these traits are TOO focused to deliver a specific set of effects.

Movement speed, Karl. Movement speed.

It’s always nice to see more of this kind of feedback, and I’m liking the direction that feedback (in both directions) seems to be taking. these seem like decent improvements to the dragonhunter, and I’m interested in seeing how they pan out in-game.

Overall I like the new changes, however I’m concerned that with

Grandmaster – Heavy Light: Merged the aspect of Hunter’s Determination.
Longbow arrows knock back enemies that are within the range threshold (10s ICD). Gain stability (1 stack, 5 seconds) when you knock an enemy back in this fashion.

you won’t be able accurately time the stabo. IMO Hunter’s Determination should keep it’s base function when merged with Heavy Light (that is, grant stabo when you hit a target with true shot). Limited to 1 stack @ 5s. This way stabo can be timed better to prevent CCs, instead of having a large random factor.

Can’t wait to see the changes in bwe3 though, keep up the good work!

Has it ever been considered to add a team support trait line to Dragonhunter that focuses on the Guardians team role instead of longbow? Sort of how the Warrior specialization has both condi and physical dps lines allowing for different styles of play.

Master – Zealot’s Aggression: Deal extra damage to crippled enemies. Damage bonus increased from 7% to 10%. Justice’s passive effect cripples enemies (1.5s).

Hell yeah! We can keep the distance while wielding longbow even without cripple from traps and when we fight 1vs1 so the arrows don’t bounce.

Hunter’s Fortification is now one of the best defensive traits for Guardian. Especially Bunker Guards. It’s just additional condi removal.

(T.T) Now I can be proud of you Dragonhunter. (T.T)

One thing Karl… why do you need stability when you probably interrupted your foe whatever he was doing and you pushed him back? I mean this stack of stab will go to waste. No complains here Overall I am satisfied. It’s always a free stab.