Guild Wars 2

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Traps would provide a lot of the multi hits, Longbow too. Bleeding only really worked well with procession of blades and lights judgement (which is exactly what I’d use it for). However, passive VoJ still works with those traps and you can now stack cripple and vuln per passive proc if you needed. Combine that with scepter 2 and LB 4 and 5 and you have a lot of damage hitting whatever chokepoint you condemned. Even with traps or bow, DH would be useful to a burn Guard purely for the proposed traits.

These are the kinds of changes I’ve been looking for. They’re not quite there yet, but leaps and bounds close than anything we’ve seen so far!

Deflecting Shot update is great, this is exactly what I was hoping for!

Changes to Symbol of Energy are fine by me, but could we maybe see a slight CD reduction as well? It doesn’t sound like 10% damage increase is equal to what the burns were providing, especially considering burning can still deal damage even when the enemy has left the symbol.

Virtue Changes are very welcome, but I also feel like Resolve still needs a serious increase to range. Right now it’s absurd only leaping a very short distance . . . it makes the wings seem like visual fluff instead of giving a sense of soaring forward. I’m still wondering if the virtues shouldn’t just be instant cast as well.

Although I’ll be sad to see the potential for a little extra damage from bleeds for a Condi guard go away, the Piercing Light update feels much more on target for the aesthetic of the class. That little bit of a daze seems like a nice contribution to the idea of Guardian controlling the field of play.

Dulled Sense and Hunter’s Determination updates both seem good to me so far. Maybe a little dull, but far superior to what was there before.

Zealot’s Aggression trait is a nice change. The activation of cripple on passive virtue of justice proc sounds like something I can really get behind.

Hunter’s Fortification: Yes, 1000x yes to this in place of what it was before. I still think this trait could use a little more oomph, maybe, but since Guardians have such huge condition removal potential the damage bonus is great. I’m really really loving the ongoing efforts to make blocking an even more integral aspect of the Guardian. This is what the class was meant to be from day one. This trait really feels like the Dragonhunter is back on track (at least to me). I was worried for a while . . .

Heavy Light – yeah . . . it’s nice to see this getting a little more attention, but this fix seems pretty underwhelming. I rarely see the stability on this being worthwhile and even then only in pvp, really. I’ll let this one slide for now just because I’m so happy with some of these changes . . . but I’m keep my eye on this one. I’m still not sold on passive knockback.

I’m really happy with the direction a lot of these changes are going in. I’m starting to feel like Dragonhunter is feeling more like part of the Guardian again.

That being said, I’d still really LOVE to see a trait on the dragonhunter that gives Wards a little something extra. I suggested it one another thread similar to this one, but Longbow is the third weapon to receive a Ward skill and I think they’re so underrated. I think Dragonhunter with its emphasis on controlling the battlefield would be the perfect place to implement a trait to give Wards a little something extra!

A Couple Quick Suggestions:

1. Make Dulled Senses and Zealot’s Aggression the new Master and GM minor traits — They fit that role far, far better than what is currently there. Then allow Dulled Senses to trigger off of any control (Daze, Launch, KB, KD, etc.), so that it actually has some synergy, including, if possible, on the KB from wards (Hammer Ring, Staff line, LB 5). Finally, add the damage bonus beyond 600 range from Pure of Sight to the LB Grandmaster trait (Heavy Light), where it belongs and fits. This, by itself, would make the class far, far more interesting, thematically consistent, enjoyable, and viable to play.
2. Following 1.), above, Defender’s Dogma could be merged with your most recently posted version of Hunter’s Fortification, in order to help it fit the DH’s more aggressive theme, or it could be its own Major trait somewhere, possibly with some other effect added (since, as a minor, it is ridiculous, but with the above suggested Minor traits, it becomes a means of guaranteeing a cripple on the next attack).
3. Introduce a new Major trait somewhere (NOT in the same tier as the new Piercing Light, where it would compete with it) that applies bleeding when you strike a crippled foe
4. Cause BGH to either make Spear of Justice cause a significant cripple on hit, or allow the player to retain Justice’s passive effect after activating it — thus allowing a player to choose, by investing in a GM trait, the ability to actively and frequently use SoJ without also immediately losing their best ordinary access to cripple.

@Karl McLain: Please, if nothing else, these few, relatively minor changes would make an entire, glorious, world of difference in playing the DH, and they would open up whole landscapes of meaningful, powerful choices and options for DH players and solve most of the main current complaints (i.e., DH would begin to feel truly themed and organized; taking Piercing Light would cause traps to cripple, thus helping them actually hit things; players could trait themselves to have wider access to bleed, including on trap hits, without being forced into it; etc.).

@Karl McLain Also, thank you so very much for continuing to work on this potentially awesome and exciting class, taking account of players’ feedback, and continuing to update the community. We all really appreciate it.

A number of interesting and excellent suggestions from the community, particularly regarding LB1 and LB3 functionality have been compiled in this thread: Constructive Dragonhunter Feedback/Ideas, if you would care to check it out. (If Dulled Senses remains similar to its current functionality, of course, the suggestion for LB1 would make more sense if the third hit did something other than Blind.)

Is there any chance to make Hunter Fortification make aegis you apply to allies clear a condition upon removal along side of the condi removal on block for the guardian himself?

Cool stuff and som nice changes BUT:

Traps still dont fit your own goal with DH, increased ability to ranged combat. The traps being melee just dont fit with the theme of the LB or your own vision of the specialization.

Survivability lacks in the DH traitline which menas if you go DH you are more or less forced to use Valor (medi/AH) in pvp/wvw to get some survivability thru heals and condiclear. This leaves pretty much one traitline open and tbh virtues outshine both radiance and zeal. My point is that build diversity is just super low due to the innate strength of valor in particular. If you want people to play builds that arent gimmicks you need to adress the lack of condiclear and heals in DH.

The virtues still needs to be adressed, there is less point in traiting DH if you invested in virtues. Not that its redundant but DH effectively destroys whats good with the virtues, they are instant.

Keep them instant as they were but lower execution speed on dh virtues if you need to balance it. You said you wanted more back line support but in its current iteration you reduced it

Increase range on wings of resolve to at least 900. You clearly stated that you wanted to add some mobility to DH and the current range isnt that with the freeze when casting and the freeze when landing.

Thief got some interesting GM traits in their new elite specialization. They can choose what the dodge roll does. Implement the same on DH but with trap unique traits.

What about?
1. When you place a trap your allies loose 2 conditions and heal allies for x amount in a 600 radius. CD is reduced with 20%
2. Traps are instant casting. When you place a trap you apply condition x in a 300 radius and remove one condition on allies (stunbreaker). CD is reduced with 20%
3. Traps have 1200 range and CD is reduced with 20%

And nerf meditations (-25%) and AH (-35) but let AH apply the heal to allies as well. This will open up for more builds where DH with traps can play a role.

With poor survivability in DH and casting time on virtues it will never have a place in wvw and pvp other than a gimmick build.

Brutaly.6257:

And nerf meditations (-25%) and AH (-35) but let AH apply the heal to allies as well. This will open up for more builds where DH can play a role.
.

I COMPLETELY disagree with this approach. Meditatations are storng because they address EXACTLY the weakness of a guardian (mobility, low vitality, lack of condi clear on weapons, and general low percision)

The approach you’re suggesting to nerf good traits in order to make lesser traits have more play is very much the essence of wrong.

DH lacks self sustain through weapon skills, yet we still have low vitality, and traps don’t contribute to either condi clearing nor healing (self or allies) .. thats’ the core issue .. therefore they need to be improved to account for the areas they leave the guardian very very vulnerable . The good traits shouldn’t be nerfed for the sole reason of making bad traits comparable. Bad traits need to be fixed/balanced to be competitive with the good traits.

And on a side note, The same issues with traps exist in Spirit weapons. The reason people don’t play spirit weapons (aside from the fact they die way way too quik) is that when specced for them , the guardian loses, self heal, self condi clear and becomes very vulnerable. Same issue exists with Signets .. Hence there aren’t any prominent Signet builds or Spirit weapons builds and there won’t be prominent Traps build unless the issue of self sustain is addressed on those be it though traits, change to utilites themselves , or a complete revamp.

Again i say it .. nerfing good traits like meditations would not benefit the class in any way and will NOT add build diversity. It will only serve to hinder the class even more as the few viable ways to spec into just become worse than before.

EDIT:

I just remembered that the latest notes actually added more self sustain inthe form of condi clearing on block . This is AMAZING addition to the guard as it lowers our reliance on the utilties for sustain.

Random thought to add sustain into weapon skills, make Write of Persistance trait make Symbols Clear a condi on the guardian himself only (allies might be too op) on every pulse while he’s standing in the symbol. Basically this would simulate the eles current ridiculously op condi clearing.

@Brutaly Seriously? Nerf the Guardian’s good things so that they match its bad things? Couldn’t we just fix the bad things, instead? Traps themselves and the DH as a whole have the potential to be excellent, if only they are fixed in the right way. The changes Karl has most recently posted are a start. The suggestions I made a couple posts up, most especially making the new Dulled Senses and Zealot’s Aggression into the Minor Master and GM traits while merging Pure of Sight with Heavy Light and either merging Defender’s Dogma with the new Hunter’s Fortification, giving it its own major slot somewhere (probably in the Adept tier), or just replacing it entirely would do most of the work in giving the class guidance, theme, broad access to cripple, and so on.

What you and so many others are forgetting is that: 1.) DH is a ranged, kiting, damage-based spec that focuses on pre-emptive set-up, planning, and area control. 2.) While it does require its own unique defensive tools, it does not need and absolutely should not have as much focus on defense as other Guardian lines, in part for the very reason that so many other Guardian lines already have that focus and do it wonderfully. It’s already there in the other trait lines, and it doesn’t fit the DH theme, so, please, stop trying to make the DH play exactly like a vanilla Guardian, or do everything that the 5 core lines and core weapons can already do, because that’s part of what’s confusing the DH’s trait lines and development. 3.) If you spec into Dragonhunter, it’s going to change your playstyle, in some manner or other — otherwise there isn’t any point in bringing it, or even in making it. That means that it won’t fit every play style (how could it?), and probably you won’t be able to use your exact same combos in exactly the same way that you always have. If you could, there would be no point to the elite spec and it would bring nothing interesting, new, or helpful to the table.

That said, there are a couple other major changes I would love to see, besides those I’ve posted above, and I think many others can agree:

Test of Faith should absolutely be a stun break — otherwise, besides Traps being the only skill line that doesn’t have access to a stun break, the new trait which places it when I am controlled (not really the most interesting trait anyway, given the already existing on-being-controlled trait that Guards have access to) will do more to mock me than actually help me (a controlled player can’t actually move to pick up all those glorious, life-saving fragments lying around everywhere). Further, the shards should also clear a condition when picked up; since using FoF is so much more difficult than “Retreat”, it deserves the extra functionality.

One With the Light: “Traps Spawn a Symbol on Activation,” coupled with either: “Virtues recharge faster while under the effects of Retaliation” or “Clear a condition every time you gain retaliation” would make a ridiculously cool Grandmaster Major trait (although there currently is not room for it, and I’m not sure I’d erase anything that’s currently there in order to add it in, as much as I want it), and it would add some much-needed interest, utility, and synergy to traps and the DH.

*Also, “Placing a Trap grants Swiftness and removes movement impeding conditions” would be an extraordinarily useful and interesting trait, as it would allow traps to remain traps, but give the DH player a means of quickly repositioning him/herself after placing one.

Purity (the heal trap) really ought to grant Resistance when placed, and then clear some number of conditions when activated (at least one). This would give it a reason to be brought in place of the other Guard heals, which all have extremely powerful bonuses of their own, but none of which include either Resistance or active condi cleanse.

For the LB, honestly what it needs more than anything is a more interesting auto-attack: Preferably a three-hit-chain that, ideally, involves a unique debuff and multiple homing light projectiles or some other visually and mechanically interesting and unique mechanic on the final hit.

I like:

• Virtues problem being adressed. You should really consider adding Taunt for Spear of Justice because right now it’s subpar compared to VoJ. Also, the heal from Wings of Resolve should be insta-cast

• Symbol of energy becomes a Symbol I asume, so it’s also nice.

• Damage increase to traps buff to trap effects.

• Deflecting shot but I will have to test it, was the least appealing LB skill and think it will be hard to make it work.

• Hunter’s Fortification is now worth it, will serve the players that will play bunker and has interesting synergies with Aegis and Block related traits and skills.

• Piercing Light trap CD YES! now we only need to make traps ground target.

Did not like:

• You don’t adress Puncture Shot (auto attack) that is slow and can be kited just like Scepter. This needs to be fixed/buffed.

• No changes to Cooldowns for LB skills such as Hunter’s Ward and this is one of the main issues with DH.

• Buff to Dragon’s Maw is nice but needs to be increased to compete with Renewed Focus and Feel my Wrath.

• If Traps could become Symbols we’d be abble to find the synergy that a lot of other specializations have already found. I will keep insisting on this.

Good work overall, kudos to the Dev Team, still a long way to go but this is a start.

Karl McLain.5604:

Hey all. Following up on what we talked about last week. Here’s a few more things that we’re looking at doing:

Longbow update

Deflecting Shot: The last time I posted, the note I had on this was a vague ‘damage increase’ thing, which met with fair opposition. We’ve had a little more time to look into the ability and have tweaked it a fair amount so that it can retain its primary defensive functionality and still reward you for reactive play. Here’s what we’ve got -

• Reduced missile velocity by 25% (it traveled too fast to really block much). Reduced after-cast by 300 milliseconds. Increased base damage by 13%. Destroying a projectile with this ability increases the damage it deals by 100%. Increased the blocking radius by 33%. The attack radius of this ability has not been increased.

• Symbol of Energy: Removed the burning on impact (no other symbol has an additional effect, so this felt weird). Increased damage dealt by 10%.

Virtues:

• Spear of Justice: Increased missile velocity by 100%. Reduced the casting speed from 3/4 second to 1/4 second.

• Shield of Courage: The shielding effect now occurs the moment this ability starts. Lowered after-cast by 200 milliseconds. We’re also looking into a better functionality for the shield.
  Where we’re at: Currently, you block all attacks for allies within the radius, but you don’t get any feedback for it… so we’re looking to improve that. The shield also doesn’t really benefit you, other than missile blocking (which is good, but feels like it should do more, being that you’re giving up instant casts). The current idea is to block attacks from the front (within the shield you’re projecting), but be vulnerable from the back to ensure counter-play.

• Wings of Resolve: We’re waiting to see how the current implementation plays out, being as the ability has a greatly increased healing application and has access to 3 seconds of immobilize.

Traits:
There’s been some merging and creation of new trait types for the Dragonhunter line. There are now a couple of direct defensive options, in addition to some stronger power/damage ones. The goal here was to give different clear avenues (damage, utility, virtues… with some overlap)

Adept – Piercing Light: The bleeding effect only really benefited a couple traps, where we wanted the effects of this trait to enhance each one in the same way.

• The bleeding functionality has been removed and will now daze enemies for 1 second when traps enter their ‘activating’ state.

Adept – Dulled Senses: Moved here from the Master tier! Enemies you knock back are crippled. Enemies you cripple receive Vulnerability. Reduced the vuln from 3 stacks for 5 seconds to 1 stack for 8 seconds.

Master – Hunter’s Determination: Drop a Fragments of Faith trap at your location when you’re crowd-controlled.

Master – Zealot’s Aggression: Deal extra damage to crippled enemies. Damage bonus increased from 7% to 10%. Justice’s passive effect cripples enemies (1.5s).

Grandmaster – Hunter’s Fortification: The area effect protection was bland and, while defensive, didn’t really portray the more selfish dragonhunter nature that likes to hold an advantage over their enemies. We’ve replaced this with a bit different defensive nature that’s also more synergistic with Hunter’s Determination.

• Remove conditions when blocking attacks (1 per block, ICD 1 second). Receive 10% less damage when you have no conditions on you.

Grandmaster – Heavy Light: Merged the aspect of Hunter’s Determination.

• Longbow arrows knock back enemies that are within the range threshold (10s ICD). Gain stability (1 stack, 5 seconds) when you knock an enemy back in this fashion.

Please keep in mind that (as before) these things won’t be in the next BWE, but in a future update. As always, thanks for your constructive feedback!

Cheers,
-Karl

Hey dude, Arken here and awesome to hear ya on this side. Just a little bit of my own feedback. Please take into consideration.

Deflecting Shot: Excellent change. I did a test on this against a friend who utilized Rapid Fire and I believe it only blocked 2 shots so this is a welcome change.

Spear of Justice: Excellent change, especially to the velocity as this suffered from scepter/long bow’s strafing issue’s.

Shield of Courage: I still think that if this is going to stay a personal shield that it really should block all frontal attacks for the guardian and not just ranged. It’s very difficult to keep your allies within a small radius to protect them. Maybe change it to be completely selfish?

Wings of resolve: Following the theme of a more selfish type of virtue, maybe grant this evasion frames so it can’t be interrupted.

Piercing Light: I was hoping Guardians would have more condition access but this isn’t a bad change since we also lack a lot of hard-cc(Daze/stuns especially).

Dulled Senses: While it’s a nice addition to have the vuln, is it possible to consider changing it to something else? With how inconsistent it is to keep someone kbed even a few times, this is hardly any vulnerability to take advantage of. Instead of vuln, grant the Guardian swiftness?

Hunter’s Determination: This looks neat, would have to see the ICD and how many fragments are dropped to judge.

Zealot’s Aggression: Excellent trait. I love this. Reverted the damage AND made justice’s passive cripple. My only gripe is that this, along with a few other traits(purity of body, zealous scepter) is that this discourages you from activating your virtue’s which I still believe isn’t very good design.

Hunter’s fortification: Excellent change but I think half of this trait is essentially useless. Every class sneezes our conditions so I think this part needs to be changed. Why not have 10% mitigation while having a condition on you? As a GM this seems to be fair.

Heavy Light: Nice to see a merge but not a huge fan of the RNG factor. You need Stability on-demand, not randomly. Same thing applies to the KB. I think this is the only trait that needs to be completely overhauled.

“Condi Guardian, it’s a thing, prepare yourself.” – Joshua Davis, Dragonhunter POI.

“We are removing Bleeding on traps and Burning on symbol” – Karl McLain, August Beta Testing.

Well that didn’t last long

Please re-add bleeding elsewhere! Longbow crits perhaps?

Arken.3725:

Dulled Senses: While it’s a nice addition to have the vuln, is it possible to consider changing it to something else? With how inconsistent it is to keep someone kbed even a few times, this is hardly any vulnerability to take advantage of. Instead of vuln, grant the Guardian swiftness?

I really really like this idea .. Switching the appliction of vaulnrability on applying cripple to be gain swiftness when you apply cripple would make much much more sense when the concept of dragon hunt relies on range.

I also would still like to emphasize the importance of making the trigger of cripple on virtue of justice passive become aoe when traited into Permeating Wrath GM in virtues. .. I would even go as far as to say the swiftness gain becoming aoe as well to allies would be really nice but that might be pushing it too far.

Summery: swiftness on cripple application makes more sense than vulnrability on cripple application since ranged is the context here.

Brutaly.6257:

And nerf meditations (-25%) and AH (-35) but let AH apply the heal to allies as well. This will open up for more builds where DH with traps can play a role.

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.

Nerfing effective builds in attempts to level them with ineffective builds just renders the whole class obsolete. This is a horrendous idea.

x indigo x.6981:

Arken.3725:

Dulled Senses: While it’s a nice addition to have the vuln, is it possible to consider changing it to something else? With how inconsistent it is to keep someone kbed even a few times, this is hardly any vulnerability to take advantage of. Instead of vuln, grant the Guardian swiftness?

I really really like this idea .. Switching the appliction of vaulnrability on applying cripple to be gain swiftness when you apply cripple would make much much more sense when the concept of dragon hunt relies on range.

I also would still like to emphasize the importance of making the trigger of cripple on virtue of justice passive become aoe when traited into Permeating Wrath GM in virtues. .. I would even go as far as to say the swiftness gain becoming aoe as well to allies would be really nice but that might be pushing it too far.

Summery: swiftness on cripple application makes more sense than vulnrability on cripple application since ranged is the context here.

That’s….an amazing way to look at it. Cripple grants swiftness?

Edit: There were only a few things I saw which included that, hunter’s fort and heavy light.

Arken.3725:

x indigo x.6981:

Arken.3725:

Dulled Senses: While it’s a nice addition to have the vuln, is it possible to consider changing it to something else? With how inconsistent it is to keep someone kbed even a few times, this is hardly any vulnerability to take advantage of. Instead of vuln, grant the Guardian swiftness?

I really really like this idea .. Switching the appliction of vaulnrability on applying cripple to be gain swiftness when you apply cripple would make much much more sense when the concept of dragon hunt relies on range.

I also would still like to emphasize the importance of making the trigger of cripple on virtue of justice passive become aoe when traited into Permeating Wrath GM in virtues. .. I would even go as far as to say the swiftness gain becoming aoe as well to allies would be really nice but that might be pushing it too far.

Summery: swiftness on cripple application makes more sense than vulnrability on cripple application since ranged is the context here.

That’s….an amazing way to look at it. Cripple grants swiftness?

Edit: There were only a few things I saw which included that, hunter’s fort and heavy light.

I was thinking of that in the context of equipping both zealots aggression and dulled senses. Since you’d be applying cripple on virtue of Justice passive, that’s swiftness would be very handy in repositioning and keeping the distance from the enemy.

Edit: it is especially useful since the only knock back we have on bow is based on ring making us lack on demand cc.

x indigo x.6981:

Arken.3725:

Dulled Senses: While it’s a nice addition to have the vuln, is it possible to consider changing it to something else? With how inconsistent it is to keep someone kbed even a few times, this is hardly any vulnerability to take advantage of. Instead of vuln, grant the Guardian swiftness?

I really really like this idea .. Switching the appliction of vaulnrability on applying cripple to be gain swiftness when you apply cripple would make much much more sense when the concept of dragon hunt relies on range.

I also would still like to emphasize the importance of making the trigger of cripple on virtue of justice passive become aoe when traited into Permeating Wrath GM in virtues. .. I would even go as far as to say the swiftness gain becoming aoe as well to allies would be really nice but that might be pushing it too far.

Summery: swiftness on cripple application makes more sense than vulnrability on cripple application since ranged is the context here.

Both this post and your previous one about not nerfing Meditations and AH fill me with so much joy. You hit everything bang on (including Signets and Spirit Weapons) and the idea of swiftness on cripple is phenomenal. Well done, Sir or Madame.
This is the kind of thinking we need to see more of from the devs.

x indigo x.6981:

Arken.3725:

x indigo x.6981:

Arken.3725:

Dulled Senses: While it’s a nice addition to have the vuln, is it possible to consider changing it to something else? With how inconsistent it is to keep someone kbed even a few times, this is hardly any vulnerability to take advantage of. Instead of vuln, grant the Guardian swiftness?

I really really like this idea .. Switching the appliction of vaulnrability on applying cripple to be gain swiftness when you apply cripple would make much much more sense when the concept of dragon hunt relies on range.

I also would still like to emphasize the importance of making the trigger of cripple on virtue of justice passive become aoe when traited into Permeating Wrath GM in virtues. .. I would even go as far as to say the swiftness gain becoming aoe as well to allies would be really nice but that might be pushing it too far.

Summery: swiftness on cripple application makes more sense than vulnrability on cripple application since ranged is the context here.

That’s….an amazing way to look at it. Cripple grants swiftness?

Edit: There were only a few things I saw which included that, hunter’s fort and heavy light.

I was thinking of that in the context of equipping both zealots aggression and dulled senses. Since you’d be applying cripple on virtue of Justice passive, that’s swiftness would be very handy in repositioning and keeping the distance from the enemy.

Edit: it is especially useful since the only knock back we have on bow is based on ring making us lack on demand cc.

Very true, this would allow for decent mobility.

Edit: That’s what I mean, any type of RNG of this nature isn’t very useful(in pvp). I still think Hunter’s fort should grant 10% damage mitigation when you have a condition on you. Again, everyone and their mothers spew out conditions. This is essentially like Unscathed Contender, amazing on paper but rarely useful for more than a second.

Instead of piercing light causing a daze I think shattered AEGIS would fill that role much better.

Think about it
“Shattered AEGIS” Whenever an AEGIS you applied is broken it deals damage to & dazes the attacker.

Piercing light applying bleeding was a good idea, it just needed to trigger off of more things. You know like sword hits, bow hits and more multi hits traps.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Think about it
“Shattered AEGIS” Whenever an AEGIS you applied is broken it deals damage to & dazes the attacker.

I would be willing to pay double the price of the game if this was ever introduced in the trait XD

Random idea here to minimize the unwanted knockbacks from Puncture Shot: Make it apply (once per 8 or 10seconds) with True Shot or Deflecting Shot.

True Shot, with the “once per x seconds” tech you’ve developped for Chilling Nova (reaper trait), would make it that much more dangerous for enemies, adding a knockback to a high-damage shot. The nature of the shot being STRONG fits well with the knockback at close range aspect you want to incorporate.

Deflecting Shot, on the other hand, wouldn’t need an ICD (its cooldown being already the 10s you want for the trait). Adding the KB to that skill would create a choice-making situation: “Do I want to knockback the guy who’s coming straight at me or do I want to keep it for an eventual projectile reflect?” or better even, reflecting a melee-range Point-Blank shot from a Ranger while knockbacking him even further with the shot itself!

Misguided.5139:

Obtena.7952:

Based on the pathetic amount of conditions DH had in it, it never did. In all honesty, if anyone doesn’t think they can still make a condition build with DH spec’ed, I don’t think they are paying attention to the current meta.

A couple of things. First of all, some of us don’t care so much about the meta. There’s a difference between what works pretty well and what is completely optimal. There’s also a big difference between what works in PvE vs PvP. I think you have PvP in mind, and you might be right that few players would have gone for a condi DH build (which in and of itself is useful feedback), but that doesn’t mean it might not have worked just fine for PvE content before the recently announced changes. The point here is that what modest potential DH might have had (which could have been increased for all play modes with different changes) instead got ripped out of it pretty hard.

1. It doesn’t matter if you pay attention to the meta or not; you can make a condition build with DH because our damage conditions aren’t sourced from weapons.

2. DH is a PVP spec so if you even try to talk about using it in PVE, you could care less about your performance or potential. There is no potential ripped out of DH because traps lost a single bleed stack from a crap adept trait.

Arnath.2319:

“Condi Guardian, it’s a thing, prepare yourself.” – Joshua Davis, Dragonhunter POI.

“We are removing Bleeding on traps and Burning on symbol” – Karl McLain, August Beta Testing.

Well that didn’t last long

Please re-add bleeding elsewhere! Longbow crits perhaps?

It’s going to be hard to make a valid point if it’s not inline with the reality of the current game state … Guardians using burn very successfully in PVP as well as the burning build for PVE meta. Didn’t rely on a weak bit of bleed from a single skill for it either. Imagine.

Obtena.7952:

1. It doesn’t matter if you pay attention to the meta or not; you can make a condition build with DH because our damage conditions aren’t sourced from weapons.

2. DH is a PVP spec so if you even try to talk about using it in PVE, you could care less about your performance or potential. There is no potential ripped out of DH because traps lost a single bleed stack from a crap adept trait.

Just because you have decided it is a pvp spec doesn’t meant it couldn’t have PvE potential as well (and why shouldn’t it?) We’re talking about ten stacks with a trap like Procession of Blades, not one. Maybe still not amazing, but having a condition other than burning isn’t a bad idea. Instead of removing it completely, they could have added bleed to more things. And if you think it sucked, you didn’t have to take. Some of us thought it had potential.

I’d love to discuss it further, but honestly, it seems like you’ve made up your mind, so there’s probably no point.

Misguided.5139:

Obtena.7952:

1. It doesn’t matter if you pay attention to the meta or not; you can make a condition build with DH because our damage conditions aren’t sourced from weapons.

2. DH is a PVP spec so if you even try to talk about using it in PVE, you could care less about your performance or potential. There is no potential ripped out of DH because traps lost a single bleed stack from a crap adept trait.

Just because you have decided it is a pvp spec doesn’t meant it couldn’t have PvE potential as well (and why shouldn’t it?)

Because Anet didn’t design it to be? I mean, feel free to use it in a PVE spec … just like if you want to wear nomads or something. Up to you. In fact, I would love for someone to show me a PVE build with a DH spec that would be even remotely comparable to anything we see being used now. Not to argue, but to be genuinely proven wrong so I have something to look forward to when DH comes out for PVE.

x indigo x.6981:

Brutaly.6257:

And nerf meditations (-25%) and AH (-35) but let AH apply the heal to allies as well. This will open up for more builds where DH can play a role.
.

I COMPLETELY disagree with this approach. Meditatations are storng because they address EXACTLY the weakness of a guardian (mobility, low vitality, lack of condi clear on weapons, and general low percision)

The approach you’re suggesting to nerf good traits in order to make lesser traits have more play is very much the essence of wrong.

Well i disagree. The option is to buff all other traitlines to balance with valor. And they still wont adress the real issue. That guardian lack innate capabilities.

And its not a nerf to meditations as skills, its a nerf to the heal. One component that can be adressed byt for instance:
Larger healthpool
Increased passive regen from virtues
CD on self heals.

All the solutions above which fully could compensate for a nerf to medi/AH heals requires a minimum of changes.

To balance medi/AH with other traitlines requires all other traitlines to be buffed with survivability. And in order to do that it has to be done to alterations of the utility skills. If its not tied to utilities the relative imbalance will remain and medi/AH will be equally strong.

So the fastest way to open up for build diversity is to nerf medis and buff innate survivability. Its also the route that demands the least resources and time ti implement.

Obtena.7952:

Because Anet didn’t design it to be? I mean, feel free to use it in a PVE spec … just like if you want to wear nomads or something. Up to you. In fact, I would love for someone to show me a PVE build with a DH spec that would be even remotely comparable to anything we see being used now. Not to argue, but to be genuinely proven wrong so I have something to look forward to when DH comes out for PVE.

Maybe you’re comepletely right, but as I said before, that’s feedback that they should hear. If you look at DH and think “man, this sucks for PvE” then the community should be talking about what tweaks could be made to change that, rather than accepting it as a foregone conclusion that it is intended to be that way.

There’s still plenty of time to make changes.

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

And nerf meditations (-25%) and AH (-35) but let AH apply the heal to allies as well. This will open up for more builds where DH with traps can play a role.

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.

Nerfing effective builds in attempts to level them with ineffective builds just renders the whole class obsolete. This is a horrendous idea.

I totally agree. That is the exact point. That will show devs and players whats really wrong with the guardian and that its not in a good state.

And as i said in my previous post, its the fastest way to:
1 Balance traitlines and open up for more diversity
2 identifying and implementing innate capabilities to compensate.

This is how you effectively handle imbalances in business, you dont reinforce the weak stuff first, you balance the strong stuff and have a plan on how to fix the foundation when you got balance. Any other route just waste resources and work as patches.

Brutaly.6257:

Black Box.9312:

Brutaly.6257:

And nerf meditations (-25%) and AH (-35) but let AH apply the heal to allies as well. This will open up for more builds where DH with traps can play a role.

No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no.

Nerfing effective builds in attempts to level them with ineffective builds just renders the whole class obsolete. This is a horrendous idea.

I totally agree. That is the exact point. That will show devs and players whats really wrong with the guardian and that its not in a good state.

And as i said in my previous post, its the fastest way to:
1 Balance traitlines and open up for more diversity
2 identifying and implementing innate capabilities to compensate.

This is how you effectively handle imbalances in business, you dont reinforce the weak stuff first, you balance the strong stuff and have a plan on how to fix the foundation when you got balance. Any other route just waste resources and work as patches.

Or you could just skip the part where you make Guardian suck entirely and just tweak the things that actually need work; these being things that people already know about and have been telling Anet to make changes to for a long time now.

Brutaly is right and I’ve seen it time and again in all kinds of MMO’s. As long as Medi is THAT good, that’s all we gonna get and everything else is going to be balanced around that point, ensuring that any build where you don’t use Valor will be subpar in PVP. If you’re satisfied with that, keep denying it needs to be changed. If you’re not, you see why it’s a problem.

Except Medi is not THAT good, everything else just sucks in comparison. Valor in general isn’t nearly as strong as it used to be with the trait changes(most notably to MotP and GH).

I do agree it would be nice to branch out of Valor but that’s the defensive tree for sustain. Even with that you’re still about as tanky as a piece of paper. So once again, Valor is about average at best just everything else is incredibly subpar in comparison.

The comparison here isn’t with other professions so yes, medi is very good.

Pure of Sight needs to GO AWAY from Minor.

This trait bogs down any build diversity. This trait is the reason why Dragonhunter feels underwhelming. This trait causes synergy problems.

One of the reasons why Dragonhunter feels underwhelming is because you are trying to force all 3(Virtues/Longbow/Traps) on us at the same time when they have no synergy together.

This is a clear example of badly promoting something that could be good.
1. A store is selling a TV for $300. You must subscribe to the channels packaged with the TV and pay $30 per month.
2. A store is selling a TV for $300. You may choose to subscribe to the channels packaged with the TV and pay $30 per month.

The reason why I would not buy the TV from 1 is because I dont watch TV. I want a TV for my PS4.
I dont want to pay $30 per month for something I dont use.
I dont want to equip a Minor trait that I dont use.

For example, I could make a build with Greatsword/Hammer and the new Virtues, but Pure of Sight is essentially useless to me, because I am melee. I could even add Traps to the build, it could work out because Greatsword has pull and Hammer has ward.
However, I effectively lose a whole Minor trait if I make any build that does not include Longbow because Pure of Sight is a Minor trait and this kills build diversity.

There are 3 aspects of Dragonhunter.
1. New Virtues
2. Longbow
3. Traps

If you gave us 3 things and told us to choose any of them as additions, it gives us
choose 1, choose 2, choose 3, choose 1+2, choose 2+3, choose 1+3, Choose 1+2+3.
7 new options.
You are already forcing new Virtues onto us, and because of Pure of Sight being a Minor trait you are also forcing Longbow onto us. So we only get
choose 1+2, choose 1+2+3.
This leaves us with only 2 new options.
By removing Pure of Sight from Minor, we get
choose 1, choose 1+2, choose 1+3, choose 1+2+3.
That has 4 new options, much better.

This trait removes our options, there is a similar issue with Zeal trait line and Symbols Minor traits.
However, I dont have to equip Zeal line to get access to the new Virtues or Traps!

Minor traits should be traits that every build can benefit from. Stop pigeon-holing us.

Heralds are not being forced to take a Shield.
Berserkers are not being forced to take a Torch.
Dragonhunters are being forced to take the Longbow.

P.S: Even if I do pick a build with a Longbow, I dont want to pick Pure of Sight as a trait since my build could be support.

It is just a compilation of your ideas with a couple of changes

Traps

Adept – Piercing Light:
Traps cause x stack of bleed depending on the trap and Reduces the recharge time of traps by 20%

Purification: 5 stack of bleed for 6s to any enemies when it is activated
Test of Faith: 3 stack of bleed for 6s each time they cross
Procession of Blade: 1 stack of bleed for 6s per hit
Light’s Judgement: 1 stack of bleed for 6s per hit
Fragments of Faith: 5 stack of bleed for 6s to any enemies when it is activated
Dragon’s Maw: 5 stack of bleed for 6s to any enemies when it is activated

Master – Hunter’s Determination (ICD 60S):
Drop a Fragments of Faith trap at your location when you’re crowd-controlled. Now Fragments of Faith grants Stun Breaker

Grandmaster – Hunter’s Fortification (ICD 1S):
Remove conditions when blocking attacks (1 per block, ICD 1 second). Receive 10% less damage when you dont have any Movement impairment (Crippled, Slow, Chill, Immobilize) on you

Longbow

Adept – Dulled Senses
Enemies you knock back, Knock down, Pull or Launch are crippled. Enemies you cripple receive Vulnerability (1 stack for 8s).

Master – Pure of Sight (1s ICD)
you will apply bleed (1 stack for 8s) when you strike a crippled or vulnerable foe and You deal 10% extra damage to enemies when you are using longbow, scepter or focus

Grandmaster – Heavy Light (10s ICD)
True Shot Deflecting Shot knock back enemies that are within the range threshold (Range Threshold: 300 – Knockback: 300). Gain Swiftness (6s) when you knock an enemy back in this fashion

Virtues

Adept – Soaring Devastation
Wings of resolve deliver an attack upon landing and Immobilize for 3s

Master – Bulwark:
Shield of courage is larger and lasts longer. Blocking an attack causes justice to reach its maximum charge.

Grandmaster –Big Game Hunter:
Striking an enemy tethered by your spear of justice causes vulnerability and increases damage dealt.

Minor Traits

Adept – Virtuous Action: (Unchanged)

Master – Justice as one:
Justice’s passive effect cripples enemies (1.5s) and you will able to retain Spear of Justice passive after activating it

Grandmaster – Zealot’s Aggression:
Deal extra damage to crippled enemies (10%).

LB1 Changes: I made a few tweaks/improvements of RebornbyFire’s idea.

The problem with this, mechanically, is that it runs totally counter to the actual stated purpose of the DH, which is to hunt down and kill single, powerful enemies (and also that it’s somewhat awkward to use). In a situation with a single enemy, you waste the bouncing effect and cannot get the cripple, which is what you actually need — thereby offering DH a cripple on auto-attack but making it actually impossible to use on-demand in certain situations (esp. PvP). Also, it feels like everybody else’s bow attacks

The AA will apply one stack of Light’s Burden to target (max stack 2), each stack of Light’s Burden slows the effected target’s movement speed by 12.5% and attack speed by 5% (25% of ms and 10% of atk spd, the movement speed reduction part will not stack with cripple or chill only the atk spd will). if you hold the 1 key (something like the ranger gs4), you will start you charge (1s of casting time) 3 light homing missile (it just visual effect it will still count has one for the soj passive and not 3), this homing missiles will not only travel faster than the normal ones but will also have more reach (1500) (i dont know if it is possible to make this part work like the water missile, after testing for a couple of min with mobs it appears that water missile works really like a homing missile and not like the orb of wrath, you can see the trail in this screen) once the light homing missile hit his target the Light’s Burden will be consumed and trigger different effects depending on the amount of stack:

With 1 stack of Light’s Burden, the damage will increase by 10% and cripple the target for 0.75(only the main target) but with 2 stack of Light’s Burden, the LB1 will do 20% more damage and cripple and blind for 1.5s to the target and nearby foes (3 target max, 180 radius). you can use the secondary skill of lb1 without any Light’s Burden on the target but you will not able to trigger the aditional effect like “more damage/cripple/blind” (you will still lose dps if you use the second part of the skill with the 2 stack even with 20% damage modifier)

Karl… you just dont get it….do you? Revamp the bloody DH.. this is ridiculous compared to the other classes…. AT least make it worth playing! Have you even tried fighting as DH against the others in this spec? I bet the results would be terrible…

Obtena.7952:

Brutaly is right and I’ve seen it time and again in all kinds of MMO’s. As long as Medi is THAT good, that’s all we gonna get and everything else is going to be balanced around that point, ensuring that any build where you don’t use Valor will be subpar in PVP. If you’re satisfied with that, keep denying it needs to be changed. If you’re not, you see why it’s a problem.

I can almost agree with you, but one problem is that Medi is not THAT good. It is just good, and that makes it a better offensive build than our other options. What other utility set do have that offers us the ability to move away from tank/support and deal decent damage?

Spirit weapons are AI, and as such will likely always be balanced to be sub-par in PvP.

Signets are still a hot mess. Signet of Judgement is great, but even that has a hard time finding a place in a decent build.

All but one of our shouts are defensive support with the exception of our elite.

Purging flames is a good offensive/defensive/support consecration, but the others are situational support skills.

Seeing as how any time we choose to take another skill over a Meditation, we lose the benefit of a traited Medi heal and fury (and many builds do this for Feel my Wrath, Shelter, Purging Flames, Shelter) I cannot see the argument against balancing other skills against Meds due to Meds being too strong (they are widely considered a fairly balanced build in PvP with both strengths and easy counters).

Arothen.9842:

Karl… you just dont get it….do you? Revamp the bloody DH.. this is ridiculous compared to the other classes…. AT least make it worth playing! Have you even tried fighting as DH against the others in this spec? I bet the results would be terrible…

go away please.

Mightymealworm.8409:

Obtena.7952:

Brutaly is right and I’ve seen it time and again in all kinds of MMO’s. As long as Medi is THAT good, that’s all we gonna get and everything else is going to be balanced around that point, ensuring that any build where you don’t use Valor will be subpar in PVP. If you’re satisfied with that, keep denying it needs to be changed. If you’re not, you see why it’s a problem.

I can almost agree with you, but one problem is that Medi is not THAT good. It is just good, and that makes it a better offensive build than our other options. What other utility set do have that offers us the ability to move away from tank/support and deal decent damage?

Spirit weapons are AI, and as such will likely always be balanced to be sub-par in PvP.

Signets are still a hot mess. Signet of Judgement is great, but even that has a hard time finding a place in a decent build.

All but one of our shouts are defensive support with the exception of our elite.

Purging flames is a good offensive/defensive/support consecration, but the others are situational support skills.

Seeing as how any time we choose to take another skill over a Meditation, we lose the benefit of a traited Medi heal and fury (and many builds do this for Feel my Wrath, Shelter, Purging Flames, Shelter) I cannot see the argument against balancing other skills against Meds due to Meds being too strong (they are widely considered a fairly balanced build in PvP with both strengths and easy counters).

I’d have to agree.

Signets needs a faster cast time as well as a removal of Line of Sight bug… I mean, there’s a giant Signet symbol on your head when you’re casting! You might as well highlight people’s CC button and tell them to use it.

Oh, and the knockdown range on bane signet should be 600 and the above should apply to it.

Mightymealworm.8409:

Obtena.7952:

Brutaly is right and I’ve seen it time and again in all kinds of MMO’s. As long as Medi is THAT good, that’s all we gonna get and everything else is going to be balanced around that point, ensuring that any build where you don’t use Valor will be subpar in PVP. If you’re satisfied with that, keep denying it needs to be changed. If you’re not, you see why it’s a problem.

I can almost agree with you, but one problem is that Medi is not THAT good. It is just good, and that makes it a better offensive build than our other options.

Regardless of what level of good you want to put it at, it’s still our standard and everything is still balanced around it. Therefore …

Really not liking the new heavy light.

Having stability & or knock backs tied to RNG and distance from the target is not what this or any class needs.

The trait should just cause deflecting shot to knockback any target it hits & make true shot grant stability.

This would make it more reliable & add some counter play since deflecting shot is easy enough to notice.

Obtena.7952:

Mightymealworm.8409:

Obtena.7952:

Brutaly is right and I’ve seen it time and again in all kinds of MMO’s. As long as Medi is THAT good, that’s all we gonna get and everything else is going to be balanced around that point, ensuring that any build where you don’t use Valor will be subpar in PVP. If you’re satisfied with that, keep denying it needs to be changed. If you’re not, you see why it’s a problem.

I can almost agree with you, but one problem is that Medi is not THAT good. It is just good, and that makes it a better offensive build than our other options.

Regardless of what level of good you want to put it at, it’s still our standard and everything is still balanced around it. Therefore …

I wouldn’t say that valor needs to be changed.

Instead I would say they need to look at the survivability that valor adds via monks focus and apply that to other lines.

For instance

Radiance could do that via having perfect inscriptions changed so that it reduces signet CD, removes a condition on signet use & heals you on signet use (obviously less then monks focus since it also removes a condi but still a decent heal)

Virtues could do something similar with virtue activation.

Honor already has great survivability options so no change needed there.

Dragonhunter could do something similar via a heal, protection & or regeneration with a condi cleanse when a trap is used. (that would make people at least think about using it)

Zeal, well zeal needs a complete shuffling, merging and after a few new traits as it doesn’t make any real sense.

Misguided.5139:

Obtena.7952:

Based on the pathetic amount of conditions DH had in it, it never did. In all honesty, if anyone doesn’t think they can still make a condition build with DH spec’ed, I don’t think they are paying attention to the current meta.

A couple of things. First of all, some of us don’t care so much about the meta. There’s a difference between what works pretty well and what is completely optimal. There’s also a big difference between what works in PvE vs PvP. I think you have PvP in mind, and you might be right that few players would have gone for a condi DH build (which in and of itself is useful feedback), but that doesn’t mean it might not have worked just fine for PvE content before the recently announced changes. The point here is that what modest potential DH might have had (which could have been increased for all play modes with different changes) instead got ripped out of it pretty hard.

We should not care about pve balance…really… as long as all pve content is doable by all prof/spec (which is the case finger in the nose)

We probably should stay on topic of the DH changes proposed. I feel like we’re almost there! Just 2…maykittenanges(in my opinion) and I think we’d be set.

@NumenorLord, regarding Traps becoming Symbols: As a baseline functionality or a skill type change, this will probably never happen. But I agree that it would be awesome, and I think the issue could be remedied by:

Merging the condi cleanse on Hunter’s Fortification with Bulwark, so that Bulwark would now read: “Shield of Courage is larger and lasts longer. Blocking an attack removes a condition from you.” This would be an acceptable and highly useful Master level trait.

Filling that newly-emptied Grandmaster trait slot with a trait which causes Traps to spawn a symbol when activated. I would love for this to also cause virtues to recharge faster while under the effects of Retaliation, but I think that might be asking too much. Even having each trap spawn a symbol when activated could result in an enormous amount of things going on, if fully traited, but honestly, especially compared to some of the other E.Spec. abilities and the difficulty of actually keeping things in the traps the whole time, and given the focus of the Dragonhunter and his traps on providing area control, I really don’t think it would be by any means too powerful. Much more importantly, it would be extremely fun, very interesting, and would provide access to three things that DH Trappers desperately need: Uniqueness, Synergy, and Utility.

Further, this would fit the Dragonhunter theme better by allowing us a choice in Grandmaster traits between: Traps, a Virtue, and Longbow. And honestly, Hunter’s Fortification is not strong enough to merit a GM slot (especially since the damage reduction on it is basically useless), nor should we be forced to use a GM slot just in order to have a chance of clearing conditions.

Would anyone else be in favor of…

Wings of Resolve being a stun-break (and also an evade during the animation), even if it meant weakening the heal somewhat?

Shield of Courage causing knockback either once in an aoe when activated, or else on an appropriate ICD when blocking melee attacks (which it definitely needs to do)?

It seems as though the new Virtues are really meant to be an integral part of the Dragonhunter’s playstyle and are supposed to replace, to some extent, the Guardian’s normal reliance on utility skills for survival, movement, and/or extra damage. As they currently stand, however, they’re really too weak to properly fulfill that role. These seem like quick changes that would fix that issue.

RebornbyFire.7913:

Would anyone else be in favor of…

Wings of Resolve being a stun-break (and also an evade during the animation), even if it meant weakening the heal somewhat?

Shield of Courage causing knockback either once in an aoe when activated, or else on an appropriate ICD when blocking melee attacks (which it definitely needs to do)?

It seems as though the new Virtues are really meant to be an integral part of the Dragonhunter’s playstyle and are supposed to replace, to some extent, the Guardian’s normal reliance on utility skills for survival, movement, and/or extra damage. As they currently stand, however, they’re really too weak to properly fulfill that role. These seem like quick changes that would fix that issue.

Like this idea ^

Solid suggestions Reborn. I can get behind the WoR change but why not just make the shield on courage closer to the Guardian so it actually blocks all attacks in front of them?

Obtena.7952:

Mightymealworm.8409:

Obtena.7952:

Brutaly is right and I’ve seen it time and again in all kinds of MMO’s. As long as Medi is THAT good, that’s all we gonna get and everything else is going to be balanced around that point, ensuring that any build where you don’t use Valor will be subpar in PVP. If you’re satisfied with that, keep denying it needs to be changed. If you’re not, you see why it’s a problem.

I can almost agree with you, but one problem is that Medi is not THAT good. It is just good, and that makes it a better offensive build than our other options.

Regardless of what level of good you want to put it at, it’s still our standard and everything is still balanced around it. Therefore …

This!!!

Medi/AH isnt that good.

The issue is that EVERY COMPETITIVE wvw and pvp build revolve around them.

This reduces build diversity and the fun in playing the profession.
Its easier to nerf one/two trait (monks focus/AH) and improve our healing (an example) skills than buffing ALL our utilities and still dont address the underlying issue.

I get it that some dont like their working builds to be messed up but if not, nothing will really change since Anet wont have the metrics or experience to properly understand whats really wrong with guardian.

It doesnt matter if:

We get faster casting on signets
Get to keep the passive on signet when on CD
Increase vit on spirit weapons
Increase size of Sanctuary,

All has been suggested but non of them would change the fact that medi/AH is mandatory in wvw and pvp. Not even if you combine them!!!

Nerf medi/ah and after that correct the real issue.

^ You want to nerf something that’s “in a good spot” just to make signets and everything else appear ‘better’? Nty.

No, that’s not his message. Paraphrasing:

If you want to have more diverse builds (for PVP I’m assuming), Medi builds need a nerf so that other areas can be developed since right now, everything is just balanced around this Medi build pillar.