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Posted by: KoRnStyleZ.7142

KoRnStyleZ.7142

I just feel like in dungeons it’s non-supportive and I prefer to never have a healing Guardian in any of the current dungeons in my group.

Just three words: I don’t care.

Desolation EU: Korcillia The Guard – lvl 80 Norn Guardian
Tristeno – lvl 80 Charr Warrior
Sruazzam – lvl 30 Asura Elementalist

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Posted by: Incomingray.8075

Incomingray.8075

I just feel like in dungeons it’s non-supportive and I prefer to never have a healing Guardian in any of the current dungeons in my group.

Just three words: I don’t care.

I don’t care if you care anymore, there’s other people reading this thread and all my advice in it is for them at this point, gl with healing people in dungeons.

(edited by Incomingray.8075)

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Posted by: KoRnStyleZ.7142

KoRnStyleZ.7142

I just feel like in dungeons it’s non-supportive and I prefer to never have a healing Guardian in any of the current dungeons in my group.

Just three words: I don’t care.

I don’t care if you care anymore, there’s other people reading this thread and all my advice in it is for them at this point, gl with healing people in dungeons.

At least i will do something different than usual, mr “im trying to compete GS warrior DPS as a guardian”"

Desolation EU: Korcillia The Guard – lvl 80 Norn Guardian
Tristeno – lvl 80 Charr Warrior
Sruazzam – lvl 30 Asura Elementalist

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Posted by: Incomingray.8075

Incomingray.8075

At least i will do something different than usual, mr “im trying to compete GS warrior DPS as a guardian”"

Sorry man you got me mixed up with someone else, I guess you skimmed over my posts cause all you seem to want to hear is that being a healing guardian in dungeons is good, i’m the guy promoting using Guardian support abilities and never mentioned doing Warrior dps, I talk about maximizing our dps in certain situations while still contributing unique Guardian support, neverminding what the Warrior class does… I don’t see them putting up projectile blocking walls or throwing out an aegis or giving us all stability when we need it etc., nor aoe pulling, etc.

If you want to do something different, yeah go healing in dungeons, it’s been pretty unpopular for a long time for guardians to do that, and personally I see why.

(edited by Incomingray.8075)

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Posted by: JJBigs.8456

JJBigs.8456

Healing is terrible. Everyone has a self heal. The reason your team needs heals, is your guardians low DPS leading to the monsters taking forever to kill and being able to DPS your teammates. Just being able to res them isnt enough contribution. If you play smart and use the right weapons, you can be just as tanky with 0 healing and support in other ways. Also, how do you plan to heal the ranged combat people, since most people use range in this game. Its like saying a 600 range warrior shout is good for the eles @ 1200 range.

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Posted by: Star Ace.5207

Star Ace.5207

Healing is terrible. Everyone has a self heal. The reason your team needs heals, is your guardians low DPS leading to the monsters taking forever to kill and being able to DPS your teammates. Just being able to res them isnt enough contribution. If you play smart and use the right weapons, you can be just as tanky with 0 healing and support in other ways. Also, how do you plan to heal the ranged combat people, since most people use range in this game. Its like saying a 600 range warrior shout is good for the eles @ 1200 range.

I wonder why they have Healing Power, corresponding gear, and Runes that clearly emphasize such playstyle. Probably to mess with our heads, since Healing Power is “terrible” and useless… we need 0 Healing Power as only DPS matters! As the Skritt would say: “Quick! Kill it!”

Humans tend to forget that personal preference =/= “facts” for everybody else.

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Posted by: akamon.2769

akamon.2769

wouldn’t say healing is terrible as it has it’s place. though in dungeons, i wouldn’t spec entierly for full out healing. it’s viable, but not “necessary”. boon duration on the other hand, i think would be great in dungeons.

sure, if you’re thinking pure DPS go war or what not. old arguments. Guardians have so much utility to offer that is unique to our class, and by no means do we hit like a wet noodle while being able to do so.

healing specs could work better in WvW and depending on group composition and what you’re up against.

Akaimon | Jolly Good Guardian
Akaigi | Warrior Made of Wood
[CDS] – Sanctum of Rall

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Posted by: Incomingray.8075

Incomingray.8075

I looove healing in WvW and would be happy to do it in dungeons, +healing is more effective than ever with the staff buffs too, I just am not seeing any dungeon encounters that seem to call for it, I kinda expect in time there will be content where i’ll feel driven to run heal specs to deal with mechanics, I sort of think all this content was designed without requiring healing for particular reasons like not wanting groups to have to deal with finding a ‘healer’, I think the fact that 5 random people can just jump in a dungeon with whatever spec they want and not deal with the whole ‘whos tanking? whos the healer? why didnt you heal me?!?! stuff from other mmos is cool, just stay out of the red circles, dodge when the boss does an animation type of stuff, i’ll give the one example i’ve found where I felt driven to put my healing gear on in a dungeon:

Fractals Colossus if someone kills the mob marked to not be killed in high levels(30-40) when you get mass spawns on both sides, rare situation, I felt like I helped with this kind of hectic situation by putting my heal stuff on and using staff + mace/shield and hold the line/battle presence/imp VoR etc. and helped get the hammer carriers in and out while helping the tunnel people stay up.. there is alot of sustained damage which with my group makeup wasn’t able to avoid entirely and it seemed like the healing really helped make this tough situation work out.

I’m interested to hear from the dungeon healing Guardians encounters/situations they feel like having a healing aspect is having a big impact and why, it helps further the debate I think, there’s definitely a big disagreement here.

I think the biggest point for my argument against dungeon healing maybe is the whole nature of heavy spike damage that goes around healing entirely that is usually causing the problems, ask yourself, are you sure it’s not better to help block that damage entirely with Guardian mechanisms while providing about as much DPS as you can so the 1 shotting monster stops getting opportunities to 1 shot?

Anyways play what you find fun obviously, not trying to put dungeon healers down, I just like to really pick apart things in this game, i’ve gone through so many style changes and so many traits, too many gear sets.. the games class designers are genius imho.

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Posted by: Incomingray.8075

Incomingray.8075

I wonder why they have Healing Power, corresponding gear, and Runes that clearly emphasize such playstyle. Probably to mess with our heads, since Healing Power is “terrible” and useless… we need 0 Healing Power as only DPS matters! As the Skritt would say: “Quick! Kill it!”

Humans tend to forget that personal preference =/= “facts” for everybody else.

I would say that gear is for people who want to make exploring new content go smoother or stuff like doing a hard world event with very few people, for soloing/duoing world content but most of all, for PVP.. and noone is saying you can’t heal in dungeons, personal preference, some of us just question how supportive it is to reduce your damage to provide more healing in the current dungeon designs.

(edited by Incomingray.8075)

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Posted by: Star Ace.5207

Star Ace.5207

I wonder why they have Healing Power, corresponding gear, and Runes that clearly emphasize such playstyle. Probably to mess with our heads, since Healing Power is “terrible” and useless… we need 0 Healing Power as only DPS matters! As the Skritt would say: “Quick! Kill it!”

Humans tend to forget that personal preference =/= “facts” for everybody else.

I would say that gear is for people who want to make exploring new content go smoother or stuff like doing a hard world event with very few people, for soloing/duoing world content but most of all, for PVP.. and noone is saying you can’t heal in dungeons, personal preference, some of us just question how supportive it is to reduce your damage to provide more healing in the current dungeon designs.

I would say that the kind of healing all Professions offer is not to deal with spike damage, but to supplement everybody else’s self-healing capabilities. There’s no Healer role. But I gotta repeat, there’s no DPS only role either, since each Profession is able to provide support in some fashion, even if only in the shape of combo finishers with all Berserker’s gear. When Healing Power is low on a Guardian, his/her Virtue of Resolve is rather weak (and will be the case for Battle Presence, of course), as is any Regen provided by “Hold the Line!” (or Runes of Dwayna.) Therefore, the question whether it’s useful or not in Dungeons due to spike damage being common can genuinely be avoided-for instance, in poison-heavy environments, some Professions cleanse them very easily (Guardian), and some others have darned trouble with them-enter “terrible” Healing Power (note you didn’t say that, the other poster did), when things like Regen+Battle Presence make a difference in your group when damage over time conditions have been reapplied and some characters have run out of utilities to get rid of them.

Sure, you could argue: “learn to play-they shouldn’t have been poisoned in the first place”, but there are places where conditions WILL be reapplied to you, no matter your “leet” status.

There are also zerging, paralyzing/immobilizing mobs that don’t hit/ that hard (no spike damage), but the little hits accumulate over time if there’s no more avilable self-heals, and the Guardian’s passive and active party heals greatly help on such occassions.

I know from personal experience when I use my MF gear at Orr that I totally miss Healing Power, as it has been an essential part of my playstyle since I made my Guardian (3-day headstart, and my first character that I had planned for months ahead of time). Sure I survive with MF gear, but not in the usual ways I’d prefer (and yes, survivability drops a big deal with 200-300 Healing Power only coming from Honor.) Granted, it’s also an RPG concept I have for my character-I would hate her to be full Berserker’s, and while I would consider making her some Berserker’s armor, I would never do away with my Exotic Cleric’s Accessories. It just so happens that despite the how “bad” Healing Power is, it’s incredibly good for any content (in my hands, at least), and I feel it would be unfair to judge any player you don’t know based on his /her preferred “healing” playstyle (in quotes, because I have never seen someone with Healing Power gear only providing heals.) It works well, it works right, it helps a lot, and is in no way a hindrance to any group. And yes, I tend to solo a lot of difficult monsters “for the challenge” (actually, testing how far I can go/what I can achieve) and I know that full Berserker’s gear provides too much too little room for error, which everyone commits every once in a while no matter how good the player is.

To be honest, I haven’t used my 1700+ Healing Power gear in a while, and nowadays hover more around 900-1300 (depending on build and weapons equipped) but having played with zero Healing Power in my gear, I feel incredibly, truly kitten much as a DPS lover usually feels when they devote their offensive capabilities to Healing Power, and further proving that it’s all about the player, not just math or “efficient runs.”

I mean no argument with you, however; feel free to utterly disagree with everything above.

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Posted by: Danicco.3568

Danicco.3568

I mean no argument with you, however; feel free to utterly disagree with everything above.

Don’t be afraid of discussing it, that’s why we’re here isn’t it?
Even though some doesn’t seem to understand what a discussion is, there’s plenty of us willing to take/give advice and improve ourselves as players.

I don’t think Healing Power is bad, it has great uses in certain situations, but for dungeons it’s kinda plain because of how the content is designed.

Sure, you could argue: “learn to play-they shouldn’t have been poisoned in the first place”, but there are places where conditions WILL be reapplied to you, no matter your “leet” status.

This will happen, pretty often, but they designed the dungeon/encounter to be this way and it is in a way that a player can hold on it’s own with his self-heal and/or skills.
Also it’s why it’s a good idea to have some survivability instead of picking all offensive utilities.

Dungeons seemed hard when the game launched because no one understood it’s mechanics, but today, most groups I quick-join just faceroll most of the time… even when it’s not facerolling I don’t see any really hard, wipe dangerous, moments.
(But some of the wipes we can’t even see it coming)

This happens when you have prudent players (not good, just prudent) like when we were doing some boss, I saw a Warrior (I think, it was melee) getting hit by a ton, he stood back to where I was (playing my Elementalist) and said “Hmm, I don’t get this” and just stood there.

I thought “that’s very good of him, first analyzing what’s happening instead of mindlessly going down and making others help him”.

But of course, this happened because even the spiky damage he took was just enough to make you worry and fall back, it’s not like there are 1h-ko mechanics everywhere…

and further proving that it’s all about the player, not just math or “efficient runs.”

And this is so true.
Exactly why the dungeon content isn’t insanely hard or complex, so the game is a bit more forgiving on this, so you can actually play how you want.
It’s not like people will complain if your build/gear performs at 90% instead of 100%, because as long as you’re moving and doing something, it’s good enough already.

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Posted by: Incomingray.8075

Incomingray.8075

And this is so true.
Exactly why the dungeon content isn’t insanely hard or complex, so the game is a bit more forgiving on this, so you can actually play how you want.
It’s not like people will complain if your build/gear performs at 90% instead of 100%, because as long as you’re moving and doing something, it’s good enough already.

Yeah agree, level 40’s FOTMs is the one place where I think healing becomes a huge no-no, otherwise do whatever, it really is all pretty straightforward and a bit face-roll as long as things aren’t dying super slow, I still feel that it isn’t being optimal at all replacing any dps for healing but life isn’t all about optimization, have to have fun and find your comfort zone and it depends who you play with, it’s so true that having healing power in your gear doesn’t mean you can’t provide damage.

Once you get to lev40+ fractals(it is relevant to this discussion, it’s a somewhat challenging dungeon especially with 35 AR or less, trying to give a good example for the debate, some people have no interest in ever doing it thats fine) the mobs have so much more health and hit so hard that having anyone who isn’t optimizing their DPS it really shows, long drawn out single target fights that I feel the only responsible thing to do is to maximize your damage without completely compromising your survivability, heals would be really unsupportive to your group in 40 fractals, I run full berserkers on some fights but alot of them I bump up my vitality/toughness to varying degrees because of some chaotic element, but the last thing I want to see is that someone put healing power in their gear on this instance, it’s a definite slow-down with zero gain, you will have lost some protection against the 1-shot bursts or lowered your dps in some way, just the way it’s designed, it’s a tough judgement call figuring out how much I should reduce my damage to give myself room to mess up because not all damage is easily avoidable, sometimes it’s hard to see mob animations, and helping kill as fast as technically possible so the huge spikes of damage stop is usually the most supportive thing you can do as a Guardian in addition to the many unique support abilities that have no connection to your stats.

Even the trash mobs like say Dredge at 40, you really want them dead ASAP, if they don’t die optimally they start dazing/nuking people and downing people, in this dungeon content the best offense is by far the best defense, things like protection, hammer/staff CC, projectile blocking/reflecting mechanisms are king.. I put my tanking gear on in Dredge temporarily when i’m running interference for the panel clicker at the start, it’s another unique example like when things go wrong on chest seals on high level Colossus, killing is not really relevant on that part.

I’m a healing Guardian in pvp usually, I love it, and i’m always thinking of where it could help in a dungeon run, so far it’s just that one situation where things go wrong on Colossus at high levels that I listed earlier where I was compelled to heal, otherwise as a kind of extreme player I feel like I need to support with abilities and high damage.

Any Guardians reading this intending to do 30+ fractals at some point I highly recommend you work on a full set of berserkers from CoF to switch in at least on alot of the boss fights cause that’s what’s going to help you avoid everyone running out of cooldowns and slipping up to the nasty burst damage outside of our obvious support utilities which need to be situationally chosen.

The hardest runs here are the ones with the slowest dps, that’s where the deaths and wipes happen.

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Posted by: JohnLShannonhouse.1820

JohnLShannonhouse.1820

2 general tips: there is no one answer in GW2. Everything is situational (What do the enemies do? What can my teammates do?). Second, your first job is to stay alive and in the battle and any build and play style that does this first job well will really help out your team.

You cannot go full support in this game. However, well-placed support can make a huge difference. One my my guardian’s armor sets give +40% boon duration total, and with my normal trait set and consumables it bumps up to +80% boon duration and this can help a lot (being able to maintain stability with consecrations and shouts well over 30s can be huge in some situations, for example). However, full support will not save a team mate that does not know how to avoid damage. I found the most important forms of support in order of importance are:

1. Helping others remove conditions. In high condition areas, a guardian is one of the few professions that can sustain enough condition removal to matter over the long haul, and you can remove them from your whole team. This includes light combo fields.
2. Stability in high knockdown, push/pull, daze, etc. areas. Guardians excel at this and it can make a huge difference.
3. Aegis and protection because not all damage can be avoided (note: Aegis is usually applied from “Retreat” and much less so from your virtue where the duration is short).

Miscellaneous: Healing to mitigate what damage people do take. If they avoid a lot of the damage, this does make a difference. Swiftness + Aegis + Stability (iow, the shouts “Retreat” + “Stand Your Ground”) in many areas where foes are being bypassed. Might to increase damage output (the duration bonus is huge with staff using Empower).

Remember that all boons help a little bit, but your main job is to stay alive. You also need to look at your team. 2 guardians, 2 mesmers and a ranger? Go full-bore damage. 1 guardian, 2 warriors, a thief and an elementalist? Try to support them and keep your enemies distracted and inside damaging AoE while the team destroys your enemies.

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Posted by: Oatmeal.1895

Oatmeal.1895

I’ve never considered myself a dps machine, more of a hybrid support/damage dealer. I run Harbringer’s paragon build (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Paragon-Build/page/2#post1602989). So I always have some kind of group/supportive utility up. Usually “Save Yourselves!” “Hold the Line!” & “Stand Your Ground!”

I’m also constantly switching up traits and utilities depending on the situation, mob/pack types, champion/boss types etc.

Remember, look at your class name.

guard·i·an
[gahr-dee-uhn]

noun
1.
a person who guards, protects, or preserves.

(Note, I’m not saying every guardian has to be full support and spam virtues for his/her groups all day. I’m just trying to say I came into this game with a mindset that that’s what a guardian’s primary role was. But after getting 80 I realized every class can be just about anything. So good luck to all!)

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

Even the trash mobs like say Dredge at 40, you really want them dead ASAP, if they don’t die optimally they start dazing/nuking people and downing people, in this dungeon content the best offense is by far the best defense, things like protection, hammer/staff CC, projectile blocking/reflecting mechanisms are king.

No one’s arguing that dps isn’t an issue in high end instances. As I’ve mentioned before I have a full berserker set for my guard as backup for specific cases.

The point is guardian dps contribution to a team is not comparable to many other more dps focused classes. The question becomes does the extra damage you gain from dps build guardian outweigh the losses in support/boon duration in that situation.

As a guard you spend most of your time applying boons and cc type skills that are low in damage anyway compared to other classes in that situation you mentioned, so speccing for damage doesn’t actually boost your team’s overall damage % by much if at all while it certainly decreases boons and personal survivability. (Even cleric guards have higher dmg mitigation than zerk guards)

And while mobs will 1-2 shot you in higher lvl fractals, having extra toughness can mean the difference between being 1 shot and surviving.

(edited by DeathPanel.8362)

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Posted by: Incomingray.8075

Incomingray.8075

No one’s arguing that dps isn’t an issue in high end instances. As I’ve mentioned before I have a full berserker set for my guard as backup for specific cases.

The point is guardian dps contribution to a team is not comparable to many other more dps focused classes. The question becomes does the extra damage you gain from dps build guardian outweigh the losses in support/boon duration in that situation.

As a guard you spend most of your time applying boons and cc type skills that are low in damage anyway compared to other classes in that situation you mentioned, so speccing for damage doesn’t actually boost your team’s overall damage % by much if at all while it certainly decreases boons and personal survivability. (Even cleric guards have higher dmg mitigation than zerk guards)

And while mobs will 1-2 shot you in higher lvl fractals, having extra toughness can mean the difference between being 1 shot and surviving.

First of all I have no problem with boon duration stuff, you can have everything be power/precision/crit damage and still have good boons with runes/points in virtues etc., 1h mastery+unscathed defender in something like a 0/30/30/0/10 build is alot of consistent sustained single target damage from far range if you need it with Scepter, you can still put out the same utility as a healer/toughness/vitality Guardian pretty much if all the dodging/red circle avoiding stuff is working out for everyone.

Need to record some tests or something maybe timing with combat log on various mobs to truly compare something like War vs Guardian single target dps(of course War should win cause they’re not putting out the support I do but i’d like to see how much it really is), I feel like my damage is very good and my support is fine, I do put on tough/vital gear to varying degrees in 40+ fractals for sure though, but it’s still good damage and I try to keep it high as possible.

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Posted by: KensaiZen.3740

KensaiZen.3740

This is where a decent Boon Guard focused on giving might will shine the most. with indefinite 20+ stacks of might your groups DPS will go Higher then if you were to solo spec for DPS.

That is about an extra 200 points of damage for everyone whilst under the affects of the boon. 200×5=1000 extra damage output (your own base damage has already been factored in) This multiplier also affects skills what not that the other group members use.

Another aspect of the Boon Guard which does so well is that it also gives superior defencive boons and healing as a knock on from trying to bring as much might tot eh table as possible OR you are bringing as much might as possible whilst trying to heal and defend everyone.

I really don’t see a negative side to the boon Guard at all. The damage output of my Boon Guard wearing full clerics with Boon duration runes is comparable to my Knights/zerker Guard. Not exactly losing out on much at all.

I urge you to try it in any dungeon as practice. I run dungeons ALOT and have been doing fractals up to lvl 19 with it and it works very well. This is without any AR what so ever (can out heal the AR damage with burst healing from shouts and signet)

Winters Ascension The White Guardian
Sophia Theos Beast Master
[Fissure of Woe]

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Posted by: Incomingray.8075

Incomingray.8075

This is where a decent Boon Guard focused on giving might will shine the most. with indefinite 20+ stacks of might your groups DPS will go Higher then if you were to solo spec for DPS.

That is about an extra 200 points of damage for everyone whilst under the affects of the boon. 200×5=1000 extra damage output (your own base damage has already been factored in) This multiplier also affects skills what not that the other group members use.

Another aspect of the Boon Guard which does so well is that it also gives superior defencive boons and healing as a knock on from trying to bring as much might tot eh table as possible OR you are bringing as much might as possible whilst trying to heal and defend everyone.

I really don’t see a negative side to the boon Guard at all. The damage output of my Boon Guard wearing full clerics with Boon duration runes is comparable to my Knights/zerker Guard. Not exactly losing out on much at all.

I urge you to try it in any dungeon as practice. I run dungeons ALOT and have been doing fractals up to lvl 19 with it and it works very well. This is without any AR what so ever (can out heal the AR damage with burst healing from shouts and signet)

I’d recommend trying Boon Guard with heavy dps gear and boon runes at some point.. can still do real good single target scepter dps and switch to staff to buff might, at lev19 fractals things die pretty fast, at 40 you get a bit desperate for max dps so the evil 1shotting thing just dies, at that level most people are good at avoiding everything from practice. Not sure if you care to go that far into FOTM thats just my advice if you do, thats really where I feel maximizing dps without sacraficing utility is real important and supportive.

(edited by Incomingray.8075)

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Posted by: Shimond.2478

Shimond.2478

This is where a decent Boon Guard focused on giving might will shine the most. with indefinite 20+ stacks of might your groups DPS will go Higher then if you were to solo spec for DPS.

That is about an extra 200 points of damage for everyone whilst under the affects of the boon. 200×5=1000 extra damage output (your own base damage has already been factored in) This multiplier also affects skills what not that the other group members use.

Another aspect of the Boon Guard which does so well is that it also gives superior defencive boons and healing as a knock on from trying to bring as much might tot eh table as possible OR you are bringing as much might as possible whilst trying to heal and defend everyone.

I really don’t see a negative side to the boon Guard at all. The damage output of my Boon Guard wearing full clerics with Boon duration runes is comparable to my Knights/zerker Guard. Not exactly losing out on much at all.

I urge you to try it in any dungeon as practice. I run dungeons ALOT and have been doing fractals up to lvl 19 with it and it works very well. This is without any AR what so ever (can out heal the AR damage with burst healing from shouts and signet)

Greatly depends on the group composition. A boon d/d ele or warrior will do the same – and then you’re just wasting effort since you cap out on stacks while lowering individual effectiveness.

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Posted by: KensaiZen.3740

KensaiZen.3740

This is where a decent Boon Guard focused on giving might will shine the most. with indefinite 20+ stacks of might your groups DPS will go Higher then if you were to solo spec for DPS.

That is about an extra 200 points of damage for everyone whilst under the affects of the boon. 200×5=1000 extra damage output (your own base damage has already been factored in) This multiplier also affects skills what not that the other group members use.

Another aspect of the Boon Guard which does so well is that it also gives superior defencive boons and healing as a knock on from trying to bring as much might tot eh table as possible OR you are bringing as much might as possible whilst trying to heal and defend everyone.

I really don’t see a negative side to the boon Guard at all. The damage output of my Boon Guard wearing full clerics with Boon duration runes is comparable to my Knights/zerker Guard. Not exactly losing out on much at all.

I urge you to try it in any dungeon as practice. I run dungeons ALOT and have been doing fractals up to lvl 19 with it and it works very well. This is without any AR what so ever (can out heal the AR damage with burst healing from shouts and signet)

Greatly depends on the group composition. A boon d/d ele or warrior will do the same – and then you’re just wasting effort since you cap out on stacks while lowering individual effectiveness.

How would it lower individual affectiveness? Carry 1 Dps weapon, carry staff as secondary. You can still Dps when you need to. The group will benefit from 25 stacks of permanent might. Even if you miss a skill, downed or out of range, the group will still be full of might.

If the group was so worried about burst Dps, why would they pick a boon eke or boon warrior? Doesn’t make sense. Guards have superior sustained damage but terrible burst. If your aim is to kill as fast as possible it makes sense to let the non bursty guy do the huffing.

Winters Ascension The White Guardian
Sophia Theos Beast Master
[Fissure of Woe]

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

No one’s arguing that dps isn’t an issue in high end instances. As I’ve mentioned before I have a full berserker set for my guard as backup for specific cases.

The point is guardian dps contribution to a team is not comparable to many other more dps focused classes. The question becomes does the extra damage you gain from dps build guardian outweigh the losses in support/boon duration in that situation.

As a guard you spend most of your time applying boons and cc type skills that are low in damage anyway compared to other classes in that situation you mentioned, so speccing for damage doesn’t actually boost your team’s overall damage % by much if at all while it certainly decreases boons and personal survivability. (Even cleric guards have higher dmg mitigation than zerk guards)

And while mobs will 1-2 shot you in higher lvl fractals, having extra toughness can mean the difference between being 1 shot and surviving.

First of all I have no problem with boon duration stuff, you can have everything be power/precision/crit damage and still have good boons with runes/points in virtues etc., 1h mastery+unscathed defender in something like a 0/30/30/0/10 build is alot of consistent sustained single target damage from far range if you need it with Scepter, you can still put out the same utility as a healer/toughness/vitality Guardian pretty much if all the dodging/red circle avoiding stuff is working out for everyone.

If you go boon duration+ runes with that trait and gear setup you’d end up with something like 12k or lower hp and no ability to remove conditions from yourself or your teammates. (No soldiers runes, no pure of voice trait) You are essentially a dps warrior with half the hp and less damage.

Also, how do you not get 1 shotted by trash mobs in fotm 20+ with that setup? (Not all mobs have telegraphed red circles for attacks that you can dodge…)

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Posted by: Alvik.4207

Alvik.4207

If you go boon duration+ runes with that trait and gear setup you’d end up with something like 12k or lower hp and no ability to remove conditions from yourself or your teammates. (No soldiers runes, no pure of voice trait) You are essentially a dps warrior with half the hp and less damage.

Also, how do you not get 1 shotted by trash mobs in fotm 20+ with that setup? (Not all mobs have telegraphed red circles for attacks that you can dodge…)

Well, saying a +300 toughness guardian with 12k hp is twice as squishy as a 18k hp warrior is somewhat untrue. Ignoring the extra toughness and the fact that if you factor in heals (guardian having slightly superior heal/reg) puts you at more like 22k hp vs 26k hp.
Ignoring that, and the aegis cushions, you’re still comparing a ranged weapon to a melee weapon. Compare the dps to warrior rifle and guardian will have way more dps. Also, guardians have useful off hand weapons available (focus). Though I agree boon duration may not be the optimal way to go with this build ^^
Also, Anet, plz fix scepter #1

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Posted by: Incomingray.8075

Incomingray.8075

If you go boon duration+ runes with that trait and gear setup you’d end up with something like 12k or lower hp and no ability to remove conditions from yourself or your teammates. (No soldiers runes, no pure of voice trait) You are essentially a dps warrior with half the hp and less damage.

Also, how do you not get 1 shotted by trash mobs in fotm 20+ with that setup? (Not all mobs have telegraphed red circles for attacks that you can dodge…)

I’ll be honest I don’t see where conditions are that big of a problem in FOTM, I do lev 40’s and 38’s all the time, on the Ascalon/Dredge and some other trash I put on a few pieces of toughness/vitality and it’s not anything like a dps warrior because I have wall of reflection, shield punt, protection buffs, on and on… stuff like WoR and spamming blind/vulnerability with VoJ help alot and just good dodging, duck in and out, pull, aoe, dodge, spam blind, rinse repeat, dodge and signet heal.

I don’t run boon duration runes in fotm though, I just don’t see why you can’t and still be dps slanted, you’d be surprised how much condition removal you can do with torch #5 on the rare fights where conditions are a big problem or the condition removal consecration, I use those on the colossus guy if someones having a hard time avoiding for example, while wearing full berserker pretty much… after alot of FOTM runs you can get really good at avoiding damage completely, i’m sorta slowly working on a video to demonstrate.

It is kinda scary sometimes, you do go 100% to 5-10% alot on some of the trash with low hp, just gotta use stuff like renewed focus and utilities and dodge well. (I try to get 14k hp at least on the tough trash esp at 40, that’s just what works for me) I’d only go full tilt 100% berserkers on the very avoidable boss fights.

(edited by Incomingray.8075)

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

If you go boon duration+ runes with that trait and gear setup you’d end up with something like 12k or lower hp and no ability to remove conditions from yourself or your teammates. (No soldiers runes, no pure of voice trait) You are essentially a dps warrior with half the hp and less damage.

Also, how do you not get 1 shotted by trash mobs in fotm 20+ with that setup? (Not all mobs have telegraphed red circles for attacks that you can dodge…)

I’ll be honest I don’t see where conditions are that big of a problem in FOTM, I do lev 40’s and 38’s all the time, on the Ascalon/Dredge and some other trash I put on a few pieces of toughness/vitality and it’s not anything like a dps warrior because I have wall of reflection, shield punt, protection buffs, on and on… stuff like WoR and spamming blind/vulnerability with VoJ help alot and just good dodging, duck in and out, pull, aoe, dodge, spam blind, rinse repeat, dodge and signet heal.

I don’t run boon duration runes in fotm though, I just don’t see why you can’t and still be dps slanted, you’d be surprised how much condition removal you can do with torch #5 on the rare fights where conditions are a big problem or the condition removal consecration, I use those on the colossus guy if someones having a hard time avoiding for example, while wearing full berserker pretty much… after alot of FOTM runs you can get really good at avoiding damage completely, i’m sorta slowly working on a video to demonstrate.

It is kinda scary sometimes, you do go 100% to 5-10% alot on some of the trash with low hp, just gotta use stuff like renewed focus and utilities and dodge well. (I try to get 14k hp at least on the tough trash esp at 40, that’s just what works for me) I’d only go full tilt 100% berserkers on the very avoidable boss fights.

It’s a difference in opinion regarding how to contribute dps.
Any dps focused build can only go GS/Sceptor + Torch to take maximum advantage of your dps.

Stacking 12 might stacks every 20 seconds at +%boon duration to the whole team with staff contributes far more dps to the team than what you are doing.

And before you claim you can do the same, consider that while you are doing Staff #4 you are actually not attacking, which totally negates your dps gear.

Meanwhile, the survivability is higher on a support build. You yourself admit that trash mobs sometimes reduce you from 100% to 5-10%.

In the same situation the trash mob would do far less damage to a pvt/knight or cleric geared guardian and the cleric based guard could recover to full by just hitting a F1-F3 or dodging a few times while you would be stuck evading and waiting on your heal CD and hoping you won’t get hit again which means you are losing dps.

(edited by DeathPanel.8362)

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Posted by: Incomingray.8075

Incomingray.8075

It’s a difference in opinion regarding how to contribute dps.
Any dps focused build can only go GS/Sceptor + Torch to take maximum advantage of your dps.

Stacking 12 might stacks every 20 seconds at +%boon duration to the whole team with staff contributes far more dps to the team than what you are doing.

And before you claim you can do the same, consider that while you are doing Staff #4 you are actually not attacking, which totally negates your dps gear.

Meanwhile, the survivability is higher on a support build. You yourself admit that trash mobs sometimes reduce you from 100% to 5-10%.

In the same situation the trash mob would do far less damage to a pvt/knight or cleric geared guardian and the cleric based guard could recover to full by just hitting a F1-F3 or dodging a few times while you would be stuck evading and waiting on your heal CD and hoping you won’t get hit again which means you are losing dps.

Firstly I have no trouble on trash on lev40 fractals, it’s just not that challenging, you put up some utility skills(WoR w/e), use pull/aoe with gs or staff, you can go with signet heal cooldown reduction, renewed focus and AH work well to keep you going, important thing is spamming VoJ once they start to fall, buffs teammates might stacks vulnerability and blinds unless its dredge(heals you a little too), you can open the pull with staff might stacks if you want, I do not lose hardly any dps time on trash from being low health.

Going to 10% is not much different from going down to 20-30%, I signet heal or pump out virtues or just attack ranged without my GS for a sec, it’s not a problem, trash dead no downtime. Non-issue for me, don’t need heals or more survivability.

I dont feel a need to be tanky, I dont feel I need to be healing anyone or myself any more than I get from AH/virtues/signet heal, trash goes so well for me without tanky stats/healing gear, also boon duration food is nice. Also the cast time on empower is short and you can still benefit from full berserker if you attack with staff/switch to whatever. No point stressing over trash either way you can pretty much faceroll it quickly with WoR and other utilities with any pug.

Secondly boon duration stuff is great and all, here’s a problem I have with being focused on stacking might thought, it’s super great in theory and it really can work but I pug alot and even if i’m not pugging, people get scattered all over the place on alot of the drawn out dps fights and it’s hard to get the might stacks on everyone consistently, people end up all over the place one guy dodges left one dodges right, another reason I don’t consider +healing.

Love boon duration food, love having the gear to maximize my dps, don’t need to be tanky/healing, i’ve been doing high level fractals very smoothly for a long time, I can still swap in staff and stack everyones might if I want to, nothing wrong with your approach at all though imo, for me runs go smooth how i’m doing it and stuff dies fast, healing would seem like a waste, wish I could consistently land the might stacks on everyone, I still do when I can.

Any dps focused build can only go GS/Sceptor + Torch to take maximum advantage of your dps.

This particular sentence makes no sense to me, why can’t I mix scepter and staff on a ranged fight? Quick example bloomhunger, boon duration food, use projectile blocking, everyone together in same area, stack might with staff switch to scepter and dps, back and forth, full berserker, where’s my lack of support? I don’t see what’s the problem.

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Posted by: yLoon.5289

yLoon.5289

The title of this thread clearly depicts how ignorant it is to the poster on GW2’s dungeon mechanic. Full Support? Two words, Good Luck!

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

Any dps focused build can only go GS/Sceptor + Torch to take maximum advantage of your dps.

This particular sentence makes no sense to me, why can’t I mix scepter and staff on a ranged fight? Quick example bloomhunger, boon duration food, use projectile blocking, everyone together in same area, stack might with staff switch to scepter and dps, back and forth, full berserker, where’s my lack of support? I don’t see what’s the problem.

Note I said “to take maximum advantage of your dps build”.

If you are using low dps weapons then your damage output as a % to your team is going to be low anyway despite your gear.

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Posted by: Incomingray.8075

Incomingray.8075

Note I said “to take maximum advantage of your dps build”.

If you are using low dps weapons then your damage output as a % to your team is going to be low anyway despite your gear.

Why do I have to “take maximum advantage of my dps build”?

It’s actually a supporting build, I change weapons, gear, utilities on every single fractals map and throughout the situations within them, the damage is not low with high crit, high crit damage, 20% more damage with aegis up, it’s constant damage pretty much always going, and there’s no need to cut back anyways, cause we all live and keep dpsing.. who cares how I even compare to other classes as long as i’m reaching my potential without compromising uptime, my utility skills are what my unique class strength is.

TBH maximizing dps in gw2 high level 40s fractals takes alot of concentration for me and took a good bit of practice, I feel challenged by fractals 40+ to maximize my damage potential as a Guardian without negating my unique support/buff abilities I bring to the table…

(edited by Incomingray.8075)

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Posted by: DeathPanel.8362

DeathPanel.8362

Why do I have to “take maximum advantage of my dps build”?

You don’t have to do anything. My statement was stating how in order to take maximum advantage you’d have to do that.

Obviously if you feel like using low dps weapons in a dps centric build then that’s your prerogative. I merely pointed out your dps as a % of the total team dps is not going to be very stellar if you go that route.

At the end of the day it’s up to you to decide what to gear for yourself. I’m just stating my opinion that I don’t find your reasoning to be convincing.

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

I call it hax, because ranged can’t take full advantage of the zerk build.
(I see myself quoting this guy years to come)

(But as a side effect, playing this is boring as hell)

edit: It could be improved even further!

A bit improved version

Also, playing full zerker is nothing like being a warrior with 10k. If you think like that your vast experience is equal to null.

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Posted by: ComeAndSee.1356

ComeAndSee.1356

Healing is terrible. Everyone has a self heal. The reason your team needs heals, is your guardians low DPS leading to the monsters taking forever to kill and being able to DPS your teammates. Just being able to res them isnt enough contribution. If you play smart and use the right weapons, you can be just as tanky with 0 healing and support in other ways. Also, how do you plan to heal the ranged combat people, since most people use range in this game. Its like saying a 600 range warrior shout is good for the eles @ 1200 range.

I wonder why they have Healing Power, corresponding gear, and Runes that clearly emphasize such playstyle. Probably to mess with our heads, since Healing Power is “terrible” and useless… we need 0 Healing Power as only DPS matters! As the Skritt would say: “Quick! Kill it!”

Humans tend to forget that personal preference =/= “facts” for everybody else.

I want him to say healing is useless when you’re using a Sigil of Stamina in FOTM 40++ and non-stop spamming dodges into a wall on the Dredge packs selfless daring healing your group for 1500 a pop.

If you haven’t done it than you’re making FOTM 40++ a lot harder than it needs to be because in my group we can pull the HUGE dredge packs and everyone stays 100% HP because I’m dropping symbols on them, using Stand your ground + Hallowed ground (basically 100% up time on stability), wall of reflection, and spam dodge rolling into a wall (selfless daring 1500 a heal for the entire group each time because full endurance regained when a mob dies). They’ve straight up told me I made the Dredge dungeon 10x easier.

Also, to the person who says support is useless above 40 — yeah, okay buddy!

Sha Nari – 80 Guardian (http://bit.ly/12RNvtK)
Lorella Windrunner – 80 Thief
Shayera Nightfall – 80 Mesmer

(edited by ComeAndSee.1356)

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Posted by: Danicco.3568

Danicco.3568

A bit improved version

Also, playing full zerker is nothing like being a warrior with 10k. If you think like that your vast experience is equal to null.

Hmm although it doesn’t have any support on it… it’s damage is borderline broken.
The scepter #1 is definitely annoying, but it’s attack rate is pretty fast (the fastest in game I think) so this looks pretty viable.

But I’m not getting berserk ascends just to try it out =/

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Posted by: Thz.7569

Thz.7569

I think a lot of people are being snippy and defending their own builds and play styles. In actuality, glass/boon/healing, etc all work. Depending on group comp. and whatnot, some can be more beneficial than others and this can continuously change with different pugs.

I choose to play a more offensive guardian but am traited 20virtues to make up for it. It’s a playstyle that agrees with me and I feel it more consistent because not everyone is in earshot for support/boon play types. However, I will never outright tell someone my build is better and that those are bad.

The biggest issue with guardians who want to go the healing power route is many of them sell themselves short without being dodge based and wasting points getting AH. But if someone knows what they’re doing, kitten right they will be helpful.

The only guardians I will straight up say are bad are those who go overboard on ptv stats. Other than that the rest are all viable and this thread ought to be more constructive.

(edited by Thz.7569)

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Posted by: tasbury.3674

tasbury.3674

The guy who’s trying to compare Warrior Auto-Attack Damage with Guardian Auto-Attack Damage is making the fatal flaw of comparing Guardian Greatsword with Warrior Greatsword.

This could be for a number of reasons:

1. He has never played a warrior
2. He has never used an axe
3. He is unable to admit he is wrong on the internet

If you know what you are doing on a warrior you won’t use GS to auto attack, you use hundred blades to build might/do dps then you swap. You may use whirlwind attack as an extra dodge but that’s it. Once hundred blades is finished you swap to axe and auto attack or you don’t use greatsword at all, since axe auto-attack is the highest DPS a warrior can achieve (and is much higher than guardian GS I assure you).

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Posted by: KoRnStyleZ.7142

KoRnStyleZ.7142

The title of this thread clearly depicts how ignorant it is to the poster on GW2’s dungeon mechanic. Full Support? Two words, Good Luck!

Thank you, ironic guy but i don’t need your “Good Luck”….kkthxbb

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

‘Much higher’ being how much exactly?

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Posted by: tasbury.3674

tasbury.3674

‘Much higher’ being how much exactly?

In tooltip damage alone the axe auto attack chain is 3950 total damage, in the mists while the Guardian GS chain is 2350 total damage.

The execution time for the axe auto attack is 3.6 seconds, which is ~1096 dps, the execution time for the Guardian GS chain is 2.5s which is ~940 dps. That’s 15%, not including crit, but even here the warrior will come out ahead because they have much more access to fury that a guardian does.

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Posted by: Korsbaek.9803

Korsbaek.9803

im normaly useing a 0/0/30/20/20 build

and to people saying maxing your own dps is the best then your mistaken this game is not 1×5 people not helping each other in any way other then dealing damage to the same mob(s) and geeting them down, its 5×1 where all 5 people needs to work as a unit and max the groupes dps(yes into you get a groupe your use to and work alot with maxing your own will give the most) so if we say that 5 people working independently can do 1000 dps each(im trowing numbers now as the numbers depends alot on what build and class each person has for not to mentiong the encounter) but then they work toghtere so that the combo fields that helps the groupe most at a given time gets hit with the right combo finisher so that people survive longer and deal more damage over time(getting might or retaliation or even that extra hp so he can stand there for 0,5sec longer before going down) then the groups damage as a whole will be higher then the 5k they do in total else.

and from when i have been doing dungeons in full zerker and going heavy damage with less support compared to when i go alot more supportive and losses alot more damage we can walk trough the place both faster and with less downed and normaly its not new players im playing with that dont know how to use dodge and use there abieltys to survive as long as possible,

but back to the build 0/0/30/20/20 im useing, im useing:
Valor:
AH(11) purity(5) and generly also strength in numbers(4) if not then i use retributiv armor(6)
Honor:
Writ of the mercifull(10), writ of the exaltation(3)
Virtues:
Abselute resolution(9) and mast likely vengfull(2) or master of consitration(6)

Gear: most likely P/T/V gear with rune of dolyakx5 plus a rune of soldier unless i need more damage where i go with some zerker bits or clerk bits(cant remember wich runes right now tho)

weapons is normaly hammer with scepter/shield and if i need more single target damage i go sword/foucs and /scepter/shield for the encounter

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Posted by: haviz.1340

haviz.1340

In tooltip damage alone the axe auto attack chain is 3950 total damage, in the mists while the Guardian GS chain is 2350 total damage.

The execution time for the axe auto attack is 3.6 seconds, which is ~1096 dps, the execution time for the Guardian GS chain is 2.5s which is ~940 dps. That’s 15%, not including crit, but even here the warrior will come out ahead because they have much more access to fury that a guardian does.

Tooltips don’t include other factors and try to compare axe to sword, not greatsword.

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Posted by: Danicco.3568

Danicco.3568

Once hundred blades is finished you swap to axe and auto attack or you don’t use greatsword at all, since axe auto-attack is the highest DPS a warrior can achieve (and is much higher than guardian GS I assure you).

Despite your lack of reading comprehension (which you may have been led to), my point that the Guardian’s DpS is comparable to the Warrior still stands.
I’m not going to argue you’re using two weapons for DpS where I was only comparing one, saving the another for whatever use this thread was originally about.

My main reason of discussing it was to prove quotes such as “Guardians will never compare to any of the dps classes in dmg anyway so there’s no point in speccing for damage.” wrong, but since this is the internet, I quickly gave up.

If anyone wants to play a full Giver, Shaman or Magi set (the worst Damage sets) because there’s no point in DpS since they’ll pick a Warrior for the job, feel free to do so. (This is me being extremely sarcastic, don’t be stupid saying you’re talking about Cleric’s or something else as I won’t read)

It just makes me a bit more wary of the Guardians I’ll pick when dungeoning, though for regular dungeons as long as they can press “1” I should be happy with it already, and for anything else I avoid PuGs anyway…

Good players will figure out how to provide support without gimping themselves and being a burden to the group. And as any statistic or game experience will show you, they’re fewer than the bad ones. So nothing new to see here.

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Posted by: ComeAndSee.1356

ComeAndSee.1356

The problem is there’s no real definition of what a “support” role is.

A “support” role can be a DPS class who either takes more defensive or healing stats and or picks traits / skills desirable for group play.

The way the game itemizes stats makes it so every piece of gear available in game has a DPS stat on it (power, precision, condition damage, or critical damage). There’s no vitality, toughness, and +healing sets for example and nobody with a brain would take the Giver set.

Like, I have a hard time classifying what my Guardian is. Support/Bunker/Healer/DPS — all the terms apply.

//

Also, dude. I have a full Berserker’s set for my Guardian and Guardian’s CANNOT put out as much DPS as a Warrior or Thief. They may out AOE DPS Warriors, but not a Thief’s short bow. My Thief is D/D and I backstab bosses for 6-8k every 3s and my auto-attack does more than your Greatsword swing. On my Thief I can spam AOE like its going out of style (3k cluster bomb crits on 5 mobs that I can basically shoot non-stop because of initiative returns on criticals).

The reason you do less DPS is because Guardians have WAY more support. Wall of Reflection and Shield of Avenger is enough to cheese half the fights in FOTM. I mean, 3 Guardians a run seems to be the norm 30+.

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Shayera Nightfall – 80 Mesmer

(edited by ComeAndSee.1356)

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Posted by: Irena.1062

Irena.1062

This is easy, you need a virtues build that focuses on Boons, condition removal and boon removal from enemies. You can’t be that great of a healer but in the buff/debuff department you’ve got the best possible tools for the job.

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Posted by: ComeAndSee.1356

ComeAndSee.1356

Several of the top WvW guilds REQUIRE their Guardians to be all support because of how powerful they are. They go overboard though — 2,000 +healing. lol, wow.

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Posted by: eXs.6210

eXs.6210

You also can heal for 1.9k with empower every 16seconds aswell as dodge heal for just over 800hp.

Wow, 1.9k heal every 16 seconds?! Gee that’s too OP… where do I sign a petition to nerfbat this i.nto the ground?!I must have this OP skill that every 16 seconds will heal back entire half of the damage that any decent enemy can inflict in one attack!!!

But seriously, truth of the matter is that tanky support builds in this game are entirely useless… pthe matter is that tanky support builds in this game are entirely useless… haracters according to that when the fact is that in this game you are 100% responsible for yourself… your damage, your heals, your survival, your everything… you are just handicapping yourself by playing a tank… no decent dungeon group will want you, you’ll be running dungeons with rangers and engineers and spend hour and a half reviving them in CoF P1…

And for people who say that tanky builds are good for PvP… Sure… people let you win cause nobody wants to spend 20 minutes running around in a circle stacking bleeds…

Seriously, do yourself a favor and make a balanced build (and by balanced I don’t mean have the same old build and add 3 ruby orbs) I mean seriously balanced build… with some power, some precision, done defensive skills… play the game the way it was intended to be played, graduate from archaic thinking of old mmos and categorizing your characters into the trinity, and contribute to the group something besides standing there…

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Posted by: KensaiZen.3740

KensaiZen.3740

Ummm that’s 1.9k as an extra heal every 16 seconds. If its too much for you to understand let me explain.

The enemy/boss will hit for 10k damage. Anyone in your party that drops below 10k is instantly dead. Condition damage will chip away at Hp and can drop it below 10k. The more heals you have that will keep the Hp above the 10k line, the bigger the buffer your team has to a wipe. This is happening as you are actually trying to buff your team to do EXTRA damage.

Unless you are playing with a dedicated dungeon group who are perfect at dodging EVERY attack, the more buffers you have for the team the higher the % of success without a wipe which means you can run with pugs. In any dungeon even fractals and complete it relatively quickly.

I do agree some people need to let go about how Trinity support works. It does not work in this game. Hell some people need to learn how to support in this game period.

A guardian support increases the overall damage output of the entire party whilst also providing defensive support at the same time. I wont even go into the maths as to how much extra damage the entire party will increase by as ive done so on other threads but it is massively higher than the output of the increased difference between a full glass cannon and a bunker.

Honestly, I have a feeling a lot of you people don’t know what you are talking about and just hop onto the glass to win bandwagon.

Can you even calculate the damage difference between individual damage and the combined team damage?

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