Guild Wars 2

Brutaly.6257:

daros.3407:

Requirement to use retreat and save yourself makes it nerf.

And you didnt have perma swiftness prepatch without those either unless fully focused on boon duration. Forcing 30 points in virtues and 45% boon duration from runes and not even then would you have 100% uptime due to how bad it stacked when reapplied.

The fact is that you can run for longer periods of time now when using shouts or having a secondary source of swiftness in your team..

Obtena.7952:

His point is valid … what is the value in playing in groups that don’t all help each other out? If you aren’t, no buff or different SoS is going to matter. Changes to SoS are actually good because they ENCOURAGE good group behaviour. In otherwords, it separates people that know what to do from people that just mash buttons. It’s a skill-separator.

Spot on. Its a better team tool now. At its just great when the team huddles up to stack might before an attack. 20 s of swiftness and 12 stacks of might in 3 seconds, yes please.

Brutaly.6257:

daros.3407:

Brutaly.6257:

Get into the game.

The fact is that you have perma swiftness with 5% boon duration, with staff and two shouts.

And you dont have to trait a single point or wait in the symbols to achieve it. This wasnt possible pre patch and ofc the staff has more group support as well.

Those are facts!

if people chose to see upon it as a nerf, well that is their choice. To me it works better than ever since i play in small groups and we always have a secondary source of swiftness.

Requirement to use retreat and save yourself makes it nerf.

^^exactly! I don’t want to use Retreat and especially SY for swiftness. It was not necessary till now. I can’t understand why people deny the obvious..meh

How did you achieve perma swiftness prepatch?

The only time its worse is in soloplay with no shouts. But why would you use staff in solo play to begin with.-

when the team huddles up before an attack, you ’ll spam SoS? Really?

You have 23 pages of posts. It’s time to get into the game and play it. Those are facts!

Crapgame.6519:

Obtena.7952:

If that was the case, why did he even approach the community asking if ‘his child was ugly’?

If I had to guess I’d say just to get a pulse. If the code was set in play or the patch it may have been too little too late with too much data (our response, thoughts, ideas, comments, or feedback) for them to actually do anything.

That is about the only thing I think could have possibly happened. Ask a question, take the pulse, then collect the data and review it. It may take time, but at least they have it and may use it down the road. I don’t have anything else. I mean I went back and read some of the initial discussion in his post and most people flat out said bad idea why not think of X, Y, or Zed…

Actualy it shouldn’t be that hard to change anything in code. Do you remember when they changed karma potions? People started immediately complain and then they reverter change back the same day and said they will add it next update.
If it is so easy to change thing like this in one hour then change some spells in weeks is not so big deal. If they would change at least the most controverted and wanted spells and said they are summarizing other feedbacks everything would be ok.

Bro I heard you like heals so we put two heals in yo heal, so you can heal up while you heal up while you heal up

earthian.1520:

when the team huddles up before an attack, you ’ll spam SoS? Really?

You have 23 pages of posts. It’s time to get into the game and play it. Those are facts!

Dude, calm down, you seem mad….

The new heal for my Mesmer is awesome, the new heal for my Guardian is just not worth it.

earthian.1520:

when the team huddles up before an attack, you ’ll spam SoS? Really?

You have 23 pages of posts. It’s time to get into the game and play it. Those are facts!

Spam? One button, 26 seconds of swiftness while adding 12 stacks of might to the team, with empower, while the symbol ticks on the team.

After 3000 hours in wvw and actually playing with the staff before posting i think you should get into the game and play.

The only time this is a nerf is if you solo and have no second source of swiftness. That is what i know from playing wvw yesterday for 6 hours with the new staff.

If people say this is a straight nerf they are talking about nerfing the way they play it and not that the weapon it self is nerfed. Its a matter of people being really bad att adapting.

23 pages of clueless people is still 23 pages of clueless people, not saying that people are cluelless in general, just saying the quantity of posts say nothing about the quality of those posts.

Brutaly.6257:

earthian.1520:

when the team huddles up before an attack, you ’ll spam SoS? Really?

You have 23 pages of posts. It’s time to get into the game and play it. Those are facts!

Spam? One button, 26 seconds of swiftness while adding 12 stacks of might to the team, with empower, while the symbol ticks on the team.

After 3000 hours in wvw and actually playing with the staff before posting i think you should get into the game and play.

The only time this is a nerf is if you solo and have no second source of swiftness. That is what i know from playing wvw yesterday for 6 hours with the new staff.

If people say this is a straight nerf they are talking about nerfing the way they play it and not that the weapon it self is nerfed. Its a matter of people being really bad att adapting.

23 pages of clueless people is still 23 pages of clueless people, not saying that people are cluelless in general, just saying the quantity of posts say nothing about the quality of those posts.

Your zerg when stacks for battle , doesn’t need swiftness! Don’t drop light fields down and blast for aoe retaliation when people try to gather 25 stacks of might. Your commander is gonna rage at you! Just saying!Makes me wonder who has a clue indeed!

But please continue this practice, unless you play on my server. Feel free to drop down SoS before battle ok?

Laivine.9308:

Your zerg when they stack for battle , doesn’t need swiftness!

I dont zerg and we still have perma 25 stacks of might and endless of swftness from a 5-10 man squad and have no issues with letting the guadians be in charge of the majority of swiftness and might.

EDIT, i dont pug so you wont see me even if i move down to desolation. Might do that though since the ques are gettign to long fo my team. I moved out of T1 3 times now to get in and play coordinated..

Edit again:
just realized i was unclear, overlapping fields is only an issue if they are casted in the wrong order hence why pugs ban light fields since they doesnt have the ability to coordinate enough.

PF – SoS – Swap – MB- Swap – Empower when out of combat. In combat you pull empower before you swap and then MB.

I think 5% dps on sword is bad, i wished 20% and/or cd reduction for skill 3…to make it viable for dps. 10seconds of spamming AA is soooo boring.

And the hammers AA chain light field is still there….

Brutaly.6257:

The only time this is a nerf is if you solo and have no second source of swiftness. That is what i know from playing wvw yesterday for 6 hours with the new staff.

If people say this is a straight nerf they are talking about nerfing the way they play it and not that the weapon it self is nerfed. Its a matter of people being really bad att adapting.

You are almost getting it, but then you keep getting hung up on the word nerf. A change is a change, calling something a nerf is always overlooking the big picture, which is balance. The staff change is great, BUT when accompanied with a proper alternative mechanic for movement with guardian that does not tie us to determinable builds. What are the alternatives? 2 60 sec cooldown shouts, teleports that only work vs enemies and rune of speed/traveler. Using non soldier runes is already hard because soft cc completely wrecks the option of dealing direct damage with guardian outside of meditations.
It is simply a poor choice to shackle a support class to be so reliant on other classes.
Our freedom to play has become so low with heavy condition meta, and this is another bite to more midrange builds. We are expected to support but the cost is too high.
If retreat was given a lower cooldown to 45 – 50 (untraited) seconds it would show they understand the change they made, for burst group speed via shout vs stacking speed with staff. because then retreat gains its utility for condi removal with a decent cooldown, and rewards boon duration stacking, If you go a far way to gain 50% boon (30 virtues +food) duration to do so.

Sadly it seems that instead of looking at the big picture, and voicing a problem, people rather find workarounds, pay loads of money for – condition damage, and limit their utility with guardian to be able to carry it around.

Oren.1736:

What are the alternatives?

It is simply a poor choice to shackle a support class to be so reliant on other classes.
Our freedom to play has become so low with heavy condition meta, and this is another bite to more midrange builds

Team work.

With the second part i do fully agree. but imo this isnt tied to SoS, its an overall problem i frankly dont think the issue got any worse by the change of the staff. There are options tbh.

And other builds that didnt had high uptimes on swiftness actually got it. So basically it changed for the individual but not for the profession.

If you stack up before a charge in wvw and drop a light field swiftness instead of a fire field I feel bad for you son.

Mightymealworm.8409:

“The change to sword damage from 5% to 10%. I’ve seen a lot of talk that maybe it is not really needed. The fact was this was a lackluster trait and this is a lackluster change to it. I would love to do the right thing here and have a change that MH sword wants rather than just 5% more damage.
Thoughts?
Jon”

Six pages of suggestions later-

“Radiance X – Powerful blades. Increased damage from 5% to 10%.”

I would say about it. That was the most nonsense Collaborative Development ever. They didn’t hear about a word that we say. They have 0 (ZERO) feelings about the class. I don’t worry any more, because, even being my main (considering the investment), I don’t play Guard any more.

Why would you ever run shouts without 20% reduction in cd?

Crapgame.6519:

eleshazar.6902:

Jon Peters needs to actually play a guard for a second. He obviously has never played the class past maybe level 10.

They have the data but going off what I see in regards to Arena Net tags when I play, they all roll thieves. I can make this into a startling statistics because I see a low number of Arena Net tags, the overall percentage is low of course yet 100% being a thief, well, speaks volumes.

All ANET tags that I saw was Warrior. ALL of them.

Ive only seen 2 anet guardian tags ever, 1 sat in LA, the other was yesterday in the mists, but he was wearing pretty basic armor, so doubt he had done much spvp at all.

fadeaway.2807:

If you stack up before a charge in wvw and drop a light field swiftness instead of a fire field I feel bad for you son.

There is no contradiction in casting them both.

Its only in uncoordinated setups that there is a perceived contradiction.

I think a lot of the angst here is like what Bash said. They haven’t improved other avenues of guardian play.

For the folks freaking out over SoS is a bit silly, espcially since that is the such a small so called nerf. If you actually do the math with 300 u/s distance of travel it comes out to be less then 7% or so difference. That 7% time added to moving to point A to point B is nothing compared to the positive trade off we received.

Old way (300*1.33*8=3192 distance traveled in 8 seconds)
New way (300*1.33*7.45=2972.55 distance traveled in 8 seconds, this takes in account the extra less then a second you have to stand in the symbol to get 8 seconds of swiftness)

6.9% Difference

Why do you have 7.45 in that formula?

Because you have to take a pause when you hit the edge of the symbol to get the next pulse of 4 seconds.

The symbol size is 180, you are traveling at 399 s/u so you need to wait around 0.55 of a second to get the second pulse.

Blasino.3128:

Because you have to take a pause when you hit the edge of the symbol to get the next pulse of 4 seconds.

The symbol size is 180, you are traveling at 399 s/u so you need to wait around 0.55 of a second to get the second pulse.

Do you think that stutter step you have to do every 8 seconds is logistically sound? I don’t see anything positive about this change. We’re slower than we were on Monday.

Do the math on the full 4 pulse buff, it’s even slower by quite a large margin.

ps – it’s probably best to do the calculations over a 32 second period to account for pulse times and show the full benefit of the 4 pulse version.

Blasino.3128:

Because you have to take a pause when you hit the edge of the symbol to get the next pulse of 4 seconds.

The symbol size is 180, you are traveling at 399 s/u so you need to wait around 0.55 of a second to get the second pulse.

Of course our mileage may vary due to network latency Last night when I tried it a bit it was like doing the three Curly shuffle – lol. Lots of running, then a small pause, etc.

Could just be me though but the whole concept of standing in a symbol baffles me anyway. Isn’t the general idea of PvP to not stand still?

Bash.7291:

Yeah, honestly I am looking to jump ship at this point. We still have no choices outside of AH/healway in group play. And once again, 95% of these changes did nothing…. Zealous blade still isn’t worth it, because who in their right minds uses healing power in a build with 20 zeal.

This was a big disappointment to me too. I was hoping for more, but you won’t see any decent #‘s unless you go heavy into healing power, and as you said, the builds that utilize Zeal can’t really use a heavy concentration of healing power.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Bash.7291:

Yeah, honestly I am looking to jump ship at this point. We still have no choices outside of AH/healway in group play. And once again, 95% of these changes did nothing…. Zealous blade still isn’t worth it, because who in their right minds uses healing power in a build with 20 zeal.

This was a big disappointment to me too. I was hoping for more, but you won’t see any decent #‘s unless you go heavy into healing power, and as you said, the builds that utilize Zeal can’t really use a heavy concentration of healing power.

Oh they can, but its pretty much wasted. >.<

It really is disappointing to see that Anet basically changed nothing despite all that feedback and those false-promises. Literally nothing changed from the preview to the actual release, despite numerous well thought out complains/suggestions.

Blasino.3128:

I think a lot of the angst here is like what Bash said. They haven’t improved other avenues of guardian play.

For the folks freaking out over SoS is a bit silly, espcially since that is the such a small so called nerf. If you actually do the math with 300 u/s distance of travel it comes out to be less then 7% or so difference. That 7% time added to moving to point A to point B is nothing compared to the positive trade off we received.

Old way (300*1.33*8=3192 distance traveled in 8 seconds)
New way (300*1.33*7.45=2972.55 distance traveled in 8 seconds, this takes in account the extra less then a second you have to stand in the symbol to get 8 seconds of swiftness)

6.9% Difference

Does your math counts with that how much annoying is stoping every CD?

You know how we can tell that devs are ignoring us? This thread hasn’t been closed (or received a dev comment) even after several call-outs against the development team, and particular developers as well. (Heck many people have called a certain developer a liar….)

In other words, the devs don’t bother ever looking in the guardian forum because none of them play guards…

eleshazar.6902:

You know how we can tell that devs are ignoring us? This thread hasn’t been closed (or received a dev comment) even after several call-outs against the development team, and particular developers as well. (Heck many people have called a certain developer a liar….)

In other words, the devs don’t bother ever looking in the guardian forum because none of them play guards…

At this point you’re just making up things to be angry about.

Maybe some reminds to help keep perspective? Our class is doing pretty well relative to most. Other than swiftness from one skill, I’d say the patch didn’t make us any worse off. We’re still valuable in just about every game mode (though at least in WvW there isn’t a lot of builds to choose from).

styx.7294:

eleshazar.6902:

You know how we can tell that devs are ignoring us? This thread hasn’t been closed (or received a dev comment) even after several call-outs against the development team, and particular developers as well. (Heck many people have called a certain developer a liar….)

In other words, the devs don’t bother ever looking in the guardian forum because none of them play guards…

At this point you’re just making up things to be angry about.

Maybe some reminds to help keep perspective? Our class is doing pretty well relative to most. Other than swiftness from one skill, I’d say the patch didn’t make us any worse off. We’re still valuable in just about every game mode (though at least in WvW there isn’t a lot of builds to choose from).

And you are just finding reasons to be complacent. If you paid attention to the patch preview discussion Jon Peters went back and actually discussed with EVERY profession except for guardians. And by discussion I mean actually posting more than once, and in several cases posting many times and making changes. That to me is something worth being a little miffed about.

You are correct that overall as a class we are average…. with the one caveat that we have to run one build. We have one viable build as a guardian, and that is tanky support. We sit there swinging away dealing little damage meanwhile buffing everyone else and healing ourselves as we do it. We are forced to trait high into vit/tough lines because we have such a low health pool that Virtue of Resolves passive ~36 health per second is supposed to make up for.

If you want to run a damage based guardian by actually traiting into those lines, you will be one of the worst players on the map. Every time. It is sad that people laugh when you say you are a zerker guardian, or say you are a power guardian, or condi guardian, because they realize you aren’t a very good player at that point. How do they know that? Because people that have played this game know that those aren’t viable builds for a guard. That’s sad in my opinion. I actually saw a group kick someone the other day when they joined the group and said he was switching to his zerker guard. That is unacceptable in my opinion, not just from a behavioral stand point, but because Anet has allowed that to be an actual measure of whether or not you can play your class.

I think there is plenty to be angry about when you see stuff like that happen in game.

eleshazar.6902:

styx.7294:

eleshazar.6902:

You know how we can tell that devs are ignoring us? This thread hasn’t been closed (or received a dev comment) even after several call-outs against the development team, and particular developers as well. (Heck many people have called a certain developer a liar….)

In other words, the devs don’t bother ever looking in the guardian forum because none of them play guards…

At this point you’re just making up things to be angry about.

Maybe some reminds to help keep perspective? Our class is doing pretty well relative to most. Other than swiftness from one skill, I’d say the patch didn’t make us any worse off. We’re still valuable in just about every game mode (though at least in WvW there isn’t a lot of builds to choose from).

And you are just finding reasons to be complacent. If you paid attention to the patch preview discussion Jon Peters went back and actually discussed with EVERY profession except for guardians. And by discussion I mean actually posting more than once, and in several cases posting many times and making changes. That to me is something worth being a little miffed about.

You are correct that overall as a class we are average…. with the one caveat that we have to run one build. We have one viable build as a guardian, and that is tanky support. We sit there swinging away dealing little damage meanwhile buffing everyone else and healing ourselves as we do it. We are forced to trait high into vit/tough lines because we have such a low health pool that Virtue of Resolves passive ~36 health per second is supposed to make up for.

If you want to run a damage based guardian by actually traiting into those lines, you will be one of the worst players on the map. Every time. It is sad that people laugh when you say you are a zerker guardian, or say you are a power guardian, or condi guardian, because they realize you aren’t a very good player at that point. How do they know that? Because people that have played this game know that those aren’t viable builds for a guard. That’s sad in my opinion. I actually saw a group kick someone the other day when they joined the group and said he was switching to his zerker guard. That is unacceptable in my opinion, not just from a behavioral stand point, but because Anet has allowed that to be an actual measure of whether or not you can play your class.

I think there is plenty to be angry about when you see stuff like that happen in game.

That sort of reasoned argument I can get behind, rather than “devs don’t bother ever looking in the guardian forum because none of them play guards”. Though I don’t know if any of the patch preview feedback threads got anything done. Most posts I saw in the other class forums kinda felt the same way we did.

My Guardian was my first level 80, my mesmer my fourth or fifth. I have my Guardian up to rank 132 in WvW while my mesmer just made rank 172. So why am I playing my mesmer more in WvW?

I found a reason just the other day, I suppose one would call it an epiphany. Two warriors had sieged up and were camping our northern camp. When I went out with the Guardian it was wham, bam recall and repair yet when I went out with the mesmer they quickly backed off the steps and went back to use their siege versus a direct fight.

So I started thinking ’Why the difference" and realized a simple fact. With my Guardian, if I hurt one of the warriors, they could quickly and easily escape to the center of that camp to heal forcing me to either follow and draw all the camp aggro or give up the fight allowing one to heal while I focused on the other. Yet with my mesmer my clones could chase one until I shattered them while I switched focus to the other. Now the way they had the camp sieged and upgraded I could not do anything more then tease them until assistance arrived but the mesmer was far more viable then the guardian in those circumstances.

So where am I going with this? It is fair to say that Guardians WERE in a good position, four maybe five months ago. However over time and gradually, the other professions have been buffed to the point where they exceed that good position Guards once held. This “creep” has been gradual enough that a person playing only a Guardian will probably not even notice it but for those with multiple toons (I have 9 level 80’s) the change is quite evident.

My other classes have been starting to excel at tasks that were at one time a specialty for the guardian. In a given situation, I am finding other characters more viable now whereas my Guardian’s performance in those situations has either remained flat or in some cases, declined. So I play my mesmer more now. I would rather have warriors chase me, myself and I plus the guy that looks like me versus having to chase them down with the guardian while in combat.

Crapgame.6519:

Obtena.7952:

If that was the case, why did he even approach the community asking if ‘his child was ugly’?

If I had to guess I’d say just to get a pulse. If the code was set in play or the patch it may have been too little too late with too much data (our response, thoughts, ideas, comments, or feedback) for them to actually do anything.

That is about the only thing I think could have possibly happened. Ask a question, take the pulse, then collect the data and review it. It may take time, but at least they have it and may use it down the road. I don’t have anything else. I mean I went back and read some of the initial discussion in his post and most people flat out said bad idea why not think of X, Y, or Zed…

I guess my response to that is … getting a pulse is a none-to-weak approach for collaborative development.

Keep in mind folks that in the U.S. holidays are fast approaching and many a company shuts down this time of year. While I can’t speak for Arena Net I’d wager people with excess in comp or vacation time may be taking it right about now.

Doesn’t mean one can cover up a riot in the dungeon but may explain why some things are taking longer to notice or even comment on.

Well they have been responding to people in the Ranger forums about the outlook for their class because they were complaining about how they need to keep this fury bug because rangers get screwed. So why haven’t they responded to us? Oh right… they don’t read this forum ever…..

Jon probably just couldn’t find this lowly forum a second time and that’s why he never responded. :P

Here is the problem I face with the SoS change. I usually run as a duo with the wife’s Ranger. While she has her signet equipped she can move across the terrain at a steady pace. (key word steady) With my Guardian I have to stop, wait for the pulses and then move again. Yesterday when we were cruising the countryside in PvE opening Christmas boxes she had to constantly stop and wait for me to catch up. With the old system at least I could slot Retreat which along with SoS would allow me to keep pace.

I hate stop and go driving which is why I do not live in a city!

It’s hard to disagree with a lot of concerns here. As someone who’s primarily played Tpvp, I can say that there’s still a lot to be desired.

Probably the same thing when they showed the new consecreation buffs happened. No one then ever played Guard in the dev team so they could not find the correct skill.
Same deal here, no one in the dev team read Guardian forums so they can not find the link.

Theftwind.8976:

Here is the problem I face with the SoS change. I usually run as a duo with the wife’s Ranger. While she has her signet equipped she can move across the terrain at a steady pace. (key word steady) With my Guardian I have to stop, wait for the pulses and then move again. Yesterday when we were cruising the countryside in PvE opening Christmas boxes she had to constantly stop and wait for me to catch up. With the old system at least I could slot Retreat which along with SoS would allow me to keep pace.

I hate stop and go driving which is why I do not live in a city!

That’s the key word. To keep you pace in the middle of the fight. As in real life wars happen. So more pulses or more seconds, will not reverse the nurf. This is not a solution. The nurf has to do that we have to stay STILL to buff speed.

It’s not only the mobility. With the SoS nurf, they harmed your stability and retaliation combos and made the use o Empower and Line of Warding more difficult when the fight is not going well and your team needs to retreat in an organized way. You don’t have any way to cover a withdrawing without get killed.

They don’t have personal issues with the Guardians. It’s just an indirect buff to the two most popular proffs and I don’t think it was a mistake.

So why has this thread still not received comment or been locked? Or right…. It’s in the guard forum….

Probably because it needs neither. This might be a crazy concept some of you but … Anet doesn’t actually NEED to communicate with the players and likely thinks Guardian is right where they want it, despite some of the shortcomings of the class. This is evident by the miniscule changes we seen in the last patch. People have to learn to read between the lines when it comes to MMO development and Dev forum posts.

Free lesson: Devs not posting here != hate for the class.

You are mistaken Obtena…. There have been attacks in this thread against on of the lead developers. (I was not the one lobbing the insults, just observing). The point of my comment is that the fact that this thread hasn’t been closed means it hasn’t been read. Sure if there was nothing violating the ToS in this thread then your post would be correct that they don’t need to respond to our griping since it is their choice whether to do so or not. Them not closing the thread due to disrespectful remarks and callouts to specific Anet staff means they did not read the thread.

Free lesson: Get off your high horse.

These changes haven’t done anything to improve the Guardian class. Most people have tried these changes and then said “Ohh yea, they aren’t much of a change”. Still no soft CC, still MASSIVE problems with our weapons, still massive problems with our trait lines, just…tons of problems but we haven’t heard anything about the real problems. Apparently they think we’re just fine, but its hilarious at how outdated our trait lines our and how bad most of our weapons are. Well it’d be more hilarious if I hadn’t have put so much time into my Guard.

Dynnen.6405:

These changes haven’t done anything to improve the Guardian class. Most people have tried these changes and then said “Ohh yea, they aren’t much of a change”. Still no soft CC, still MASSIVE problems with our weapons, still massive problems with our trait lines, just…tons of problems but we haven’t heard anything about the real problems. Apparently they think we’re just fine, but its hilarious at how outdated our trait lines our and how bad most of our weapons are. Well it’d be more hilarious if I hadn’t have put so much time into my Guard.

Quoted for truth. I’m still debating on running a warrior main instead now that guard is clearly not as good as a warrior. The two things that hold me back: 1) Spent so much time and money on my guardian so it would suck to lose all of that (although my warrior has some of what I need already). 2) I feel like I will get bored with the game if I play warrior since it will be too easy.

eleshazar.6902:

The point of my comment is that the fact that this thread hasn’t been closed means it hasn’t been read.

That’s a poor assumption. Devs can read bad feedback and not ask for the thread to be moderated … Again, they already know people are unhappy with changes. It’s part of their job. Why would they bother with yet ANOTHER thread like this one? They don’t need to.

I get your play here … convince people that Guardians are ignored because devs don’t ‘interact enough’ with us, start a revolution and then ???. That’s just not a rational approach. Think about their livelihood and what it depends on … then come back and OBJECTIVELY tell us they don’t care. Sounds foolish now right?

A more realistic scenario … their isn’t actually anything of value in this thread they need to respond to. People are unhappy, end of story. They aren’t paid to surf the forums and respond to all the vitriol.

Obtena.7952:

eleshazar.6902:

The point of my comment is that the fact that this thread hasn’t been closed means it hasn’t been read.

That’s a poor assumption. Devs can read bad feedback and not ask for the thread to be moderated … Again, they already know people are unhappy with changes. It’s part of their job. Why would they bother with yet ANOTHER thread like this one? They don’t need to.

I get your play here … convince people that Guardians are ignored because devs don’t ‘interact enough’ with us, start a revolution and then ???. That’s just not a rational approach. Think about their livelihood and what it depends on … then come back and OBJECTIVELY tell us they don’t care. Sounds foolish now right?

A more realistic scenario … their isn’t actually anything of value in this thread they need to respond to. People are unhappy, end of story. They aren’t paid to surf the forums and respond to all the vitriol.

Maybe. But this could be the age old glass half full half empty argument. The way I see it is this after reading various threads, posting in some, and the ‘net in general is that most feel the Guardian is balanced and in a good place. Others tend to say no, it isn’t. I feel that it was upon retail but since then other classes have been adjusted up while we have stayed the course. This then, in my humble opinion, means we are left behind and need some adjustments. This can be in any of the ideas or suggestions in the post by the designer. It also means to take is to also give or yield.

If we are all being honest here for a minute I think the majority said the changed hinted at, then delivered, is something said majority thought was a bad idea. To complicate matters the dev also alluded to the very same thing. Moreover, the same developer/designer said to just wait until later and we’d see a so called power ranger, er, build forthcoming.

What we got in return is what no one wanted and what the designer said wasn’t going to be good enough. So how does one digest that? Not well I’d wager. I’m sure you have or maybe have a great memory, but go back and read the post, then follow up suggestions.

About the only thing I’d agree to at this point is that what is the active player base (guardian that is) who post here and voiced opinions vs. those who don’t. Maybe those on the net active in all things guardian are the minority and we don’t know Jack after all…

Crapgame.6519:

What we got in return is what no one wanted and what the designer said wasn’t going to be good enough. So how does one digest that? Not well I’d wager. I’m sure you have or maybe have a great memory, but go back and read the post, then follow up suggestions.

I agree, but what I’m pointing out is that devs aren’t obligated to post and it’s a fallacy that devs aren’t paying attention to players just because they haven’t taken action on the forums. It’s easy to conclude we are being ignored but it’s never done on a whim … there is a reason they didn’t implement our ideas. They have a direction they feel they have to follow. That’s their job.

Obtena.7952:

Crapgame.6519:

What we got in return is what no one wanted and what the designer said wasn’t going to be good enough. So how does one digest that? Not well I’d wager. I’m sure you have or maybe have a great memory, but go back and read the post, then follow up suggestions.

I agree, but what I’m pointing out is that devs aren’t obligated to post and it’s a fallacy that devs aren’t paying attention to players just because they haven’t taken action on the forums. It’s easy to conclude we are being ignored but it’s never done on a whim … there is a reason they didn’t implement our ideas. They have a direction they feel they have to follow. That’s their job.

What about stuff like “We’ll have a discussion about the damage of shattered aegis soon” and then nothing? How does that play into your line of thought?

Obtena.7952:

Crapgame.6519:

What we got in return is what no one wanted and what the designer said wasn’t going to be good enough. So how does one digest that? Not well I’d wager. I’m sure you have or maybe have a great memory, but go back and read the post, then follow up suggestions.

I agree, but what I’m pointing out is that devs aren’t obligated to post and it’s a fallacy that devs aren’t paying attention to players just because they haven’t taken action on the forums. It’s easy to conclude we are being ignored but it’s never done on a whim … there is a reason they didn’t implement our ideas. They have a direction they feel they have to follow. That’s their job.

I agree, and can see your point. But has Dynnen pointed out in his follow up it wasn’t us who promised a discussion or dialog.

Moot point I guess since the thread is open, many provided feed back of all sorts, and they delivered what they said wouldn’t be a great idea and no one really cares for at least the active posters. The rest of the community we don’t know I guess.

So…we can at least agree this isn’t Burger King because we didn’t get it our way

Dynnen.6405:

Obtena.7952:

Crapgame.6519:

What we got in return is what no one wanted and what the designer said wasn’t going to be good enough. So how does one digest that? Not well I’d wager. I’m sure you have or maybe have a great memory, but go back and read the post, then follow up suggestions.

I agree, but what I’m pointing out is that devs aren’t obligated to post and it’s a fallacy that devs aren’t paying attention to players just because they haven’t taken action on the forums. It’s easy to conclude we are being ignored but it’s never done on a whim … there is a reason they didn’t implement our ideas. They have a direction they feel they have to follow. That’s their job.

What about stuff like “We’ll have a discussion about the damage of shattered aegis soon” and then nothing? How does that play into your line of thought?

Devs decided to not do it? Their agenda changed? Someone got hit by a bus? That’s pretty much my point … any dev presence you see here isn’t a requirement … it’s a courtesy. They don’t need us to do their job.

While they don’t NEED to have a presence here they sometimes do, but asking for feedback and then not changing anything or even really commenting on it (other than we’ll talk later) is a weird way to ask for feedback. Maybe spending 30-45 minutes responding to the community that you’re making the game for might be a good idea.