Guild Wars 2

During the AMA the dev’s requested that we provide idea and input for some of the new traits and some of the current skills. These are my suggestion on the design and inherent play-styles of the new traits. Feel free to openly discuss them because the more discussion we have the more rounded the class will become. Try to keep things civilized and open minded, the less troll infestation we have the more the devs will look into these topics.

To help keep this clean and easy to read I placed each trait line behind a spoiler.

Here is a spreadsheet that has incorporated my feedback and the feedback of others. This details position changes of traits and mechanical changes. I realize none of this may ever matter and never change the current design but I have a passion for designing games. If the devs use any of it then it was worth it!

Guardian Trait Revision Sheet – this sheet will be evolving as the discussion continues.

Healing Skills

-The devs said that they were making Healing Breeze a shout but did not know what to make Shelter. In all honesty shelter doesn’t fall into the categories very well. If anything I would consider it a mediation (RP reasons, you are meditating on a shelter). This may make it so that the current mediation heal is never used though (it really isn’t viable). I suggest just leaving it as no type.

Tomes

-The devs asked for recommendations on what to do with Tomes. Tomes are kind of in a weird position. They are good but not really practical in combat. Mainly because they are so situational players will blow them at inopportune times and never have them when needed OR players will not use them because they are uncertain NOW is the time to use it. I recommend making Tomes more like Engineer kits. You equip the tome and can use the abilities as if those were your weapon skills. As long as you stay like this you have this “tome(kit)” equiped. When you unequip it the CD starts. This makes it so a person is not afraid to pop it, they know they can use it for as long as they want even if they accidentally popped it during a miscalculated moment.

-I would tweak the skills however (if you would like me to write something up I can do so, just ask), they may be too effective to have a 100% uptime. If this seems like a bad direction then I would at least make the change so that you can use your utility skills while in Tome mode. That is one reason why I do not use tomes.

Kanashi.5104:

Tomes

-The devs asked for recommendations on what to do with Tomes.

I think that was more in regards as to what typing the tomes should be given. Consecrations suit them best in my opinion, although spirit weapons could suit Tome of Wrath I suppose.
As for any more changes that concern tomes, I wouldn’t be against them having a 100% up-time, but that’d probably result in their abilities being watered-down pretty heavily. It’s a shame, because a kit-like tome also sounds like fun. It’d be nice if there were utility tomes.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Kanashi.5104:

Tomes

-The devs asked for recommendations on what to do with Tomes.

I think that was more in regards as to what typing the tomes should be given. Consecrations suit them best in my opinion, although spirit weapons could suit Tome of Wrath I suppose.
As for any more changes that concern tomes, I wouldn’t be against them having a 100% up-time, but that’d probably result in their abilities being watered-down pretty heavily. It’s a shame, because a kit-like tome also sounds like fun. It’d be nice if there were utility tomes.

Ah I see, maybe I did read into that comment a little too much. I’m not certain anymore because I can’t recall exactly what was said.

I feel that the type “tome” is fine and should be rolled into some of the skills rather than being given a new type. However, if they must get a new type I would go with your first suggestion (even though it makes little sense that tomes would be a consecration). The virtue adept trait would work the same as the original “tome” trait sans the stability.

The skills being reduced for tomes wouldn’t be an issue if they could have 100% uptime. I agree that it would be fun and could spawn some new play-styles.

I rather Tomes be Wards instead of concecrations. Ward means direction and there’s a lot of directional skills in Tomes like “send out a cone” or “send out a projectile”. Though, wards in gw2 are often “do not pass” skills. Even so.

Or we can not change anything because they are technically their own skill types, “Heals” and “Tomes” respectively.

Kanashi.5104:

Fashion Mage.3712:

Kanashi.5104:

Tomes

-The devs asked for recommendations on what to do with Tomes.

I think that was more in regards as to what typing the tomes should be given. Consecrations suit them best in my opinion, although spirit weapons could suit Tome of Wrath I suppose.
As for any more changes that concern tomes, I wouldn’t be against them having a 100% up-time, but that’d probably result in their abilities being watered-down pretty heavily. It’s a shame, because a kit-like tome also sounds like fun. It’d be nice if there were utility tomes.

Ah I see, maybe I did read into that comment a little too much. I’m not certain anymore because I can’t recall exactly what was said.

I feel that the type “tome” is fine and should be rolled into some of the skills rather than being given a new type. However, if they must get a new type I would go with your first suggestion (even though it makes little sense that tomes would be a consecration). The virtue adept trait would work the same as the original “tome” trait sans the stability.

The skills being reduced for tomes wouldn’t be an issue if they could have 100% uptime. I agree that it would be fun and could spawn some new play-styles.

changes tomes to act more like ele conj weaps. you get so many uses, and a time limit. altho the time limit for conkittenuch more forgiving than tomes currently.

edit, to OP, i disagree and think Honor adept traits are very inept (see wat i did thur?). they are too situational. fall dmg, rez, and mace wielder

Zealous Blade : I’m ok with this trait. GS is already a great weapon. They could remove the heal altogether and it would still be a good trait with only a 5% damage increase for the GS. Remember that GS is already a powerful weapon.

Symbolic Avenger : At first it seem like an OP trait and it’s not far from that. But at the same time it give a completly new way of playing. You want to maintain as much symbol as you can and it will not only change which weapon are the best, but will also change our rotation. Now I think that they should rather nerf the guardian somewhere else and keep SA like that. This trait give another layer to the guardian gameplay and make it more fun.

Healer’s Retribution : Randiant Power + Berserker Gear + Fury = +100% critical chance. In dungeon, Inner Fire and Right Handed Mastery are useless and Healer’s Retribution is the best choice. It doesn’t mean that HR is a good trait, but it will be part of the dungeon meta if nothing change.

Radiant Power : It’s an OP minor trait. It make a lot of other trait useless in dungeon setting because it boost you to 100% critical chance. They should make it a Grandmaster Major trait or change it to something like 15%, not 25% critical chance.

Retributive Armor : It’s a great trait, but there is no reason to take it. For PvE, there is no reason to take this trait line except Retributive Armor and for PvP Monk’s Focus is more appropriate. Either put that trait into another line (Virtue or Radiance) or change some of the adept and master trait to make Valor line a good option for Dungeon.

Honor Adept and Master trait need a rework. PvE Hammer build will need that trait, but no Adept of Master trait are worth it in that line.

Jaxom.7310:

edit, to OP, i disagree and think Honor adept traits are very inept (see wat i did thur?). they are too situational. fall dmg, rez, and mace wielder

I can agree with one of those “Protector’s Impact.” This is very situational and hard to produce in most settings. However it is a trait that is shared between all classes. Does that mean it should be a trait? Not necessarily but I don’t have a replacement for it…

The other two are not. Invigorating Bulwark is similar to the current trait in Valor “Mace of Justice.” This is a weapon focused trait just like zealous blade and Scepter Power (both current traits). It could be included that Invigorating Bulwark also have a CD reduction of mace skills.

Protective Reviver is situational, but the situation in which it is used WILL occur commonly and anywhere.

How do you feel about the Master and Grandmaster traits? Do you feel like those are also poorly designed?

Thaddeus.4891:

Zealous Blade : I’m ok with this trait. GS is already a great weapon. They could remove the heal altogether and it would still be a good trait with only a 5% damage increase for the GS. Remember that GS is already a powerful weapon.

I agree that the bonus damage is great by itself. I think the idea would be to give it more “flavor” like some of the other traits that synergize with a weapon.

Thanks for adding in some PvE Dungeon feedback. I don’t do many dungeons or PvE so most of my feedback is with PvP/WvW in mind.

Just my 2 cents, (spvp perspective) GS is one of the worst weapons I’ve dealt with. Zealous blade should just have the healing removed, give it 10% dmg and leave it at that.

Kanashi.5104:

Jaxom.7310:

edit, to OP, i disagree and think Honor adept traits are very inept (see wat i did thur?). they are too situational. fall dmg, rez, and mace wielder

I can agree with one of those “Protector’s Impact.” This is very situational and hard to produce in most settings. However it is a trait that is shared between all classes. Does that mean it should be a trait? Not necessarily but I don’t have a replacement for it…

The other two are not. Invigorating Bulwark is similar to the current trait in Valor “Mace of Justice.” This is a weapon focused trait just like zealous blade and Scepter Power (both current traits). It could be included that Invigorating Bulwark also have a CD reduction of mace skills.

Protective Reviver is situational, but the situation in which it is used WILL occur commonly and anywhere.

How do you feel about the Master and Grandmaster traits? Do you feel like those are also poorly designed?

think the master and gm traits are decent, and could apply in multi-scenarios. i don’t have a prob w/ the mace skill, think weap traits are good, but if u don’t use that weap, the alt traits need to be equally useful.

heal on block – we get aegis from lots of places, so this is ok. might on crit, could be stronger, but theres other crit stuff in this line, so its ok

shout GM, u can do shouts w/ diff builds, so this is ok. symbols can work w/ multi builds, dis ok. healing and vital can be useful w/ various builds too, so ok.

but falling doesn’t really synergize w/ anything. and rez skill is like traiting for more dps when downed. means u are already assuming u are going to lose. so, i don’t like them

Kanashi.5104:

Healing Skills

-The devs said that they were making Healing Breeze a shout but did not know what to make Shelter. In all honesty shelter doesn’t fall into the categories very well. If anything I would consider it a mediation (RP reasons, you are meditating on a shelter). This may make it so that the current mediation heal is never used though (it really isn’t viable). I suggest just leaving it as no type.

It’s currently considered a meditation, and is already affected by meditation traits. why not just keep it as is?

Honor will also be strong with mace, and with the Symbolic Avenger trait maintaining yoru symbols with writ will be huge. So 60066 could be meta with longer stymbols (more damage innately plus synergy with SA) shorter reuse on mace for again more symbol damage. But yeah master trait is a bit /meh, Empowering might is like 4-6 stacks of might iirc, nothing to write home about but it’s something.

rajule.8054:

It’s currently considered a meditation, and is already affected by meditation traits. why not just keep it as is?

I believe you mean Litany of Wrath. Shelter is currently unassigned and I believe it is best this way.

Arken.3725:

Just my 2 cents, (spvp perspective) GS is one of the worst weapons I’ve dealt with. Zealous blade should just have the healing removed, give it 10% dmg and leave it at that.

Greatsword has the ability to DPS really fast if comboed correctly. Zealous blade could potentially be 10% but that may be too much, maybe 7%. However, like I stated earlier the idea would be to give it some flavor. A benefit but nothing that will make it a dominating weapon. I think the only weapon that severely lacking use is Shield.

Honor Adept Traits are less than ideal. If you don’t use a mace, you are relegated to picking the trait for reduced falling damage or for reviving others.

Maybe a better adept trait would actually increase the effect range for shout skills.

The dmg from Greatsword is too small. It takes a full Whirling Wrath to pretty much equal that of a Mighty Blow. Not to mention the CC is also worse. I think 10% would be fine.

Arken.3725:

The dmg from Greatsword is too small. It takes a full Whirling Wrath to pretty much equal that of a Mighty Blow. Not to mention the CC is also worse. I think 10% would be fine.

Whirling Wrath have a coefficient of 2.8 with zero projectile, while Mighty blow have a 1.75 coefficients so no. It’s easier to land all of Mighty Blow vs all Whirling Wrath, but that another story.

Thaddeus.4891:

Arken.3725:

The dmg from Greatsword is too small. It takes a full Whirling Wrath to pretty much equal that of a Mighty Blow. Not to mention the CC is also worse. I think 10% would be fine.

Whirling Wrath have a coefficient of 2.8 with zero projectile, while Mighty blow have a 1.75 coefficients so no. It’s easier to land all of Mighty Blow vs all Whirling Wrath, but that another story.

I’m not disagreeing with the co-efficients. It’s just from actual experience, the dmg from mighty blow is not only more reliable but the burst itself is very close to WW in terms of dmg.

Edit: In comparison to say, Warrior GS, Whirlwind does pretty much the same damage but not only acts as mobility but is also an evade on a lower cd and is easier to land.

Thoughts on Traits
The current distribution leaves a lot to be desired. A lot of traits are still poorly placed. They were kept in the same line as they are on live, even when one of the design philosophies of the specializations is to keep similar functions together. For major trait pairings, there’s only a handful where you even have to think about which you would pick, and it’s not just a numbers thing.

All the symbol stuff should be in Zeal, most notably Writ of Persistence. Longer/Larger symbols could form a nice competition with increased damage while being on symbols (at least in PvP). But for all the focus Zeal has on symbols, it needs some way to reliably generate them outside of weapons which have one. I do like that Symbols become more of an area denial effect in PvP if you go with this line. It will be interesting to see it play out.

Pure of Heart fits better in Valor, since Valor has so many Aegis traits. Having it compete against Altruistic Healing and Monk’s Focus would also stop bunker guardian builds from having ludicrous amounts of healing.

I think Vitures would be far more interesting if each major was a choice for the same virtue.

Hammer vs. GS in PvP
I disagree about hammer, specifically Mighty Blow, being more reliable damage than GS. Any time I run into a guardian with a hammer, I can avoid the vast majority of their damage and CC from hammer. The downside of concentrating everything into a few attacks is that all of it can be easily avoided. Greatsword has much better sustained damage than hammer, but burst from GS isn’t as powerful due to it being over time.

Also worth noting, a large part of the burst you see from hammer is Glacial Heart, which can crit for 2000 or more, aided by sigil of intelligence. I can see landing Mighty Blow reliably when used in Judge’s Intervention (hard to see it coming), but outside of that, you’ll need a partner with CC. And if you have that, GS burst is just as effective.

It really comes down to sustained damage and a tad more mobility vs. a little more CC.

Arken.3725:

Thaddeus.4891:

Arken.3725:

The dmg from Greatsword is too small. It takes a full Whirling Wrath to pretty much equal that of a Mighty Blow. Not to mention the CC is also worse. I think 10% would be fine.

Whirling Wrath have a coefficient of 2.8 with zero projectile, while Mighty blow have a 1.75 coefficients so no. It’s easier to land all of Mighty Blow vs all Whirling Wrath, but that another story.

I’m not disagreeing with the co-efficients. It’s just from actual experience, the dmg from mighty blow is not only more reliable but the burst itself is very close to WW in terms of dmg.

Edit: In comparison to say, Warrior GS, Whirlwind does pretty much the same damage but not only acts as mobility but is also an evade on a lower cd and is easier to land.

I agree with Arken in that Mighty Blow > WW in terms of reliability and burst damage potential. Thanks to Glacial Heart being able to crit for 800+, it’s basically becomes a shotgun with 1 reliable burst compared to a rifle that hits 14 times that may or may not land 100%. Not to mention any type of retaliation you just received. But i’m not here to compare the two weapons. I like them both.

Exedore.6320:

Thoughts on Traits
The current distribution leaves a lot to be desired. A lot of traits are still poorly placed. They were kept in the same line as they are on live, even when one of the design philosophies of the specializations is to keep similar functions together. For major trait pairings, there’s only a handful where you even have to think about which you would pick, and it’s not just a numbers thing.

All the symbol stuff should be in Zeal, most notably Writ of Persistence. Longer/Larger symbols could form a nice competition with increased damage while being on symbols (at least in PvP). But for all the focus Zeal has on symbols, it needs some way to reliably generate them outside of weapons which have one. I do like that Symbols become more of an area denial effect in PvP if you go with this line. It will be interesting to see it play out.

Pure of Heart fits better in Valor, since Valor has so many Aegis traits. Having it compete against Altruistic Healing and Monk’s Focus would also stop bunker guardian builds from having ludicrous amounts of healing.

I think Vitures would be far more interesting if each major was a choice for the same virtue.

You bring up some good points. I didn’t really touch on positioning of traits, merely the output of the traits. I can see skills like Virtuous Hammer and Writ being moved into other trees due to their theme or flavor. However sometimes it’s ok to separate these a bit because it can help with promoting going into another tree. It’s a strange kind of balance where you want all choices to be worth it but not place everything perfectly into a few trees that basically no one will ever deviate from.

Genesis.8572:

Honor Adept Traits are less than ideal. If you don’t use a mace, you are relegated to picking the trait for reduced falling damage or for reviving others.

Maybe a better adept trait would actually increase the effect range for shout skills.

Well the idea of going into honor is that you are benefiting others. That’s what these traits are for and the mace is a weapon that is meant to be used as support. I think replacing the fall trait would be an excellent idea because it isn’t practical. An increased shout range trait may be interesting. Hopefully they will think that over. It would fall into line with the rest of traits as being supportive.

All of you that have commented so far, I updated the OP to have a spreadsheet I started. You can comment on the spreadsheet but I recommend continuing the discussion here.

I took into consideration some of the feedback that has been discussed so far and I attempted to consolidate similar traits into trees that made more sense. I will post a brief description of why I made these changes.

Guardian Trait Revision Sheet

If you have a question about the trait changes or rearrangement of traits please ask. It is a lot to go over in a single post and most of it can be easily recognized or understood if you read everything in the sheet.

I realize none of this may ever matter and never change the current design, but I have a passion for designing games. If the devs use any of it then it was worth it! It’s also great practice and input from fellow gamer’s is always welcome.

Kanashi.5104:

You bring up some good points. I didn’t really touch on positioning of traits, merely the output of the traits. I can see skills like Virtuous Hammer and Writ being moved into other trees due to their theme or flavor. However sometimes it’s ok to separate these a bit because it can help with promoting going into another tree. It’s a strange kind of balance where you want all choices to be worth it but not place everything perfectly into a few trees that basically no one will ever deviate from.

Spreading out traits to make all lines appealing is the design philosophy of the old system. It didn’t work because every major trait selection had to be balanced not only against its peers but against all major traits in other lines. It was a balancing nightmare where there would always be a best choice.

The new design philosophy is that trait specializations actually make you specialized. Each line is aimed at a role or function(s) and if you want to fulfill that role or function, you have to choose the corresponding line. Typical roles are area damage, condition damage, personal survival, group support, and class mechanic. Functions are more variable, but you often see things like weapon types or groups of weapons, e.g. two-handed vs. one-handed or melee vs. ranged, ability type, profession theme, e.g. Aegis, Retaliation, Burning, etc. With this design change, you won’t see any variation in which line is chosen for filling a particular role. This is intended. If you say you’re an Honor guardian, others will know you’re group support.

Within each line, now that it’s supposed to fill a particular role, each major trait selection will be different ways of doing the same thing or closely related. Using elementalist as an example, the GM trait in air gives you damage either as a straight damage increase, resetting your air attunement (air often has high damage abilities), or damage when you CC. What this does is prevent builds from having a multitude of self-protection traits while using full damage gear (PvP perspective) or taking every low-hanging straight damage increase trait (PvE perspective).

Exedore.6320:

What this does is prevent builds from having a multitude of self-protection traits while using full damage gear (PvP perspective) or taking every low-hanging straight damage increase trait (PvE perspective).

I agree, very solid information. I thought about your suggestions and I added that back into the spreadsheet I created. If you wish to look it over and comment on those changes please do.

Exedore.6320:

Thoughts on Traits
…All the symbol stuff should be in Zeal, most notably Writ of Persistence…

I have to disagree 100%. The symbol that works best with Writ of Persistence come from the mace (and hammer), which synergizes really well with Honor (e.g., Invigorated Bulwark). Putting Writ of Persistence in Zeal forces you to lose out on the huge level group support that Honor gives (and which symbols offer). Putting all of the symbol traits in Zeal would really mess up symbol usage, because not everyone wants to go full-out offense with them. Writ of Persistence is great where it is.

Also, Altruistic Healing should compete with Monk’s focus, not with Pure of Voice. The way the spreadsheet is setup now (with regards to the GM traits discussed here) is not better than what Anet already released.

Salamander.2504:

Exedore.6320:

Thoughts on Traits
…All the symbol stuff should be in Zeal, most notably Writ of Persistence…

I have to disagree 100%. The symbol that works best with Writ of Persistence come from the mace (and hammer), which synergizes really well with Honor (e.g., Invigorated Bulwark). Putting Writ of Persistence in Zeal forces you to lose out on the huge level group support that Honor gives (and which symbols offer). Putting all of the symbol traits in Zeal would really mess up symbol usage, because not everyone wants to go full-out offense with them. Writ of Persistence is great where it is.

Also, Altruistic Healing should compete with Monk’s focus, not with Pure of Voice. The way the spreadsheet is setup now (with regards to the GM traits discussed here) is not better than what Anet already released.

It is true that it benefits mace and hammer the most but as Exedore pointed out one of the major ideas revolving around specializations is that you specialize into something specific. It could get swapped back, but it’s a bigger choice between do I want to deal more damage and burn with my symbols or do I want a little support? It may not make sense now but I suggest thinking it over a bit more. Perhaps it isn’t the right choice, we can only see what others think.

I still agree with AH. However, I wanted to change it to see what others thought. While it makes sense for them to be fought over I wanted to place the aegis skills within the Valor line. It may require a change in AH, perhaps a smaller heal but an aoe heal instead of a self only to make more sense in Honor. Ideally we wouldn’t want to deviate too far away from the way some of these staple traits function.

Thanks for the input though. Hopefully we get some more opinions and I can move them back around if need be.

In my opinion traits that need change are:
ZEAL:

• Wrathful Spirit – It is really weak even without cooldown, it competes with Fiery Wrath. Should increase the duration?
• Shattered Aegis – It is already weak and now is competing with Symbolic Avenger. They need to buff by a lot to make it viable.

RADIANCE:

• Healer’s Retribution – even more weak than Wrathful Spirit from Zeal (our healing skills have long cooldown and only provides 3 sec of retaliation).
• Radiant Retaliation – Need a lot more damage to be viable, mainly becouse is competing with Amplified Wrath.

VALOR:

• Stalwart Defender – Not only this trait needs change but the weapon needs a lot of rework. It is still the weakest weapon in the game.

HONOR:

• All adept trais are too specific. Not everybody that goes into honor will always be using a supportive build or using mace. Should be added a new effect to Protector’s Impact, if not so, everybody will use Protective Reviver if they’re not using a mace.

VIRTUES:

• Retaliatory Subconscious – This trait has to go. It has been the weakest trait in the game since forever. The only way to make it “viable” is to remove the cooldown. Even so, I hardly would take this trait.
• Virtuous Mallet – It feels weaker than the already weak Glacial Heart. And for some reason I feel that is on the wrong trait line.
• Permeating Wrath – It should burns around the target instead of the guardian. It might even require some aditional effect to make more viable, but we will need to wait to see how well the new burning will be effective.

My reason to “complain” about these traits is for allows more flexible options to build up, but some are just too weak and will never be taken. My main complaint for the current trait system (that we use now) is that are too many useless traits.

I really hope to have more options to build up without being too weak compared with the META.

Kanashi.5104:

It is true that it benefits mace and hammer the most but as Exedore pointed out one of the major ideas revolving around specializations is that you specialize into something specific. It could get swapped back, but it’s a bigger choice between do I want to deal more damage and burn with my symbols or do I want a little support? It may not make sense now but I suggest thinking it over a bit more. Perhaps it isn’t the right choice, we can only see what others think.

I understand that, but I do feel that Writ of Persistence shouldn’t compete with 20% increase damage since you’d need that trait anyways just to compensate for the lack of power from Zeal (I’m paraphrasing someone else’s words in another topic here). That being said, the other symbol traits in Zeal just aren’t very good compared to Writ of Persistence, and I could foresee people going in Honor for WoP and skipping Zeal altogether because using Symbols for regen, protection, proccing AH, and point control is reliable, whereas symbol DPS is not.

Perhaps more importantly, WoP should 100% compete with PoV because these are 2 very important but very different traits with which to provide group support to your party. Keeping this competition enhances the very specialization that you and Exedore discuss.

Kanashi.5104:

I still agree with AH. However, I wanted to change it to see what others thought. While it makes sense for them to be fought over I wanted to place the aegis skills within the Valor line. It may require a change in AH, perhaps a smaller heal but an aoe heal instead of a self only to make more sense in Honor. Ideally we wouldn’t want to deviate too far away from the way some of these staple traits function.

Ok. Just keep in mind putting MF and AH in separate lines does absolutely nothing to shift the current meta: Guardians will continue to be rewarded playing “selfish” high-sustain high dps builds. I for one want to see more build diversity, but the rewards for not taking MF and AH together (in your spreadsheet) seem pretty abysmal, regardless of what build you actually are (RF elite and SC on heal without any other meditation utilities are worth MF alone if I can have AH too).

Salamander.2504:

I understand that, but I do feel that Writ of Persistence shouldn’t compete with 20% increase damage since you’d need that trait anyways just to compensate for the lack of power from Zeal (I’m paraphrasing someone else’s words in another topic here). That being said, the other symbol traits in Zeal just aren’t very good compared to Writ of Persistence, and I could foresee people going in Honor for WoP and skipping Zeal altogether because using Symbols for regen, protection, proccing AH, and point control is reliable, whereas symbol DPS is not.

Very good points and I agree with them. I’ll see if anyone else can counter argue WoP going into Zeal. We have had one above so far. These discussiosn are great.

Ok. Just keep in mind putting MF and AH in separate lines does absolutely nothing to shift the current meta: Guardians will continue to be rewarded playing “selfish” high-sustain high dps builds. I for one want to see more build diversity, but the rewards for not taking MF and AH together (in your spreadsheet) seem pretty abysmal, regardless of what build you actually are (RF elite and SC on heal without any other meditation utilities are worth MF alone if I can have AH too).

Very true, if we moved AH back with MF what would you suggest to help create more build diversity? Both of those traits are “selfish” but inherently they are meant to heal. This tells me that Shattered Aegis and Pure of Heart are not strong enough to force a guard to choose otherwise( if we go by the spreadsheet).

I would honestly like to see more abilities move away from “apply on aegis removal” and just be apply on block. That way you can begin to separate traits into their roles of Zeal being power/condi, Radiance being precision/ferocity, Honor being regen/retaliation and Valor being Protection/stability.

Kanashi.5104:

Very true, if we moved AH back with MF what would you suggest to help create more build diversity? Both of those traits are “selfish” but inherently they are meant to heal. This tells me that Shattered Aegis and Pure of Heart are not strong enough to force a guard to choose otherwise( if we go by the spreadsheet).

AH and MF already define two different paths: even though AH is selfish, it rewards boon application to allies, so in the end it doesn’t reward highly selfish builds. I know this doesn’t really answer your question. : /

You’re right that SA and PoH aren’t strong enough to take over AH. I’ll note that putting them together in the Valor GM only exacerbates that issue, though: If one wanted to really put some love into an aegis build and buff virtues and grab retreat, they’ll need to get SA and PoH, so lumping these together is basically throwing out an aegis-oriented team-buff build that uses communal defenses. Again, less build diversity.

Kanashi.5104:

I would honestly like to see more abilities move away from “apply on aegis removal” and just be apply on block.

On paper, I agree with this. In practice, it might be overpowered, because then mace/focus combo would have more sustain and burst than it already has. I wouldn’t mind keeping the “aegis on removal” if aegis uptime was 30 seconds baseline, and then traiting for the Virtue GM reduced it to 20 seconds. But maybe that would be OP? Communal defenses as a master is already a huge improvement…

Mikau.6920:

HONOR:

• All adept trais are too specific. Not everybody that goes into honor will always be using a supportive build or using mace. Should be added a new effect to Protector’s Impact, if not so, everybody will use Protective Reviver if they’re not using a mace..

dis guy knowws wats up

Salamander.2504:

I know this doesn’t really answer your question. : /

No, but it benefits the discussion and further illustrates why they should be together.

On paper, I agree with this. In practice, it might be overpowered, because then mace/focus combo would have more sustain and burst than it already has. I wouldn’t mind keeping the “aegis on removal” if aegis uptime was 30 seconds baseline, and then traiting for the Virtue GM reduced it to 20 seconds. But maybe that would be OP? Communal defenses as a master is already a huge improvement…

I agree 100%. On paper it does seem like a great idea but without testing it may be very powerful. I bet that is what the designers thought as well and probably why everything has remained the way it is. I think it is worth testing though, just to see what the results are, it could be the missing piece to the puzzle.

As for aegis that means you generate 2 a minute over 1 a minute. Traited it would be 3 a minute over 2 a minute. Is this powerful? I don’t really see an inherent problem with the cooldowns being changed. I would like it if a designer could comment on why the CD is 40 seconds base (currently). If there was some kind of issue then we could see why it is 40 and why it would not be wise to make it much lower. Making it so that you gain aegis faster could rise more demand on the “apply on removal of aegis” and create a viable aegis build.

Jaxom.7310:

Mikau.6920:

HONOR:

• All adept trais are too specific. Not everybody that goes into honor will always be using a supportive build or using mace. Should be added a new effect to Protector’s Impact, if not so, everybody will use Protective Reviver if they’re not using a mace..

dis guy knowws wats up

Check the spreadsheet page 2 for updates to traits themselves. This is what I have currently written up based on feedback so far.

Protector’s Impact
{{Damage Reduced: 50%
add Create symbol upon taking falling damage or when you are disabled.
Has a (edit)40s ICD}}

This makes it so that you produce a Symbol of Protection when you take falling damage OR disabled. This way it has more uses and synergies with the zeal line a bit more.

Salamander.2504:

I understand that, but I do feel that Writ of Persistence shouldn’t compete with 20% increase damage since you’d need that trait anyways just to compensate for the lack of power from Zeal (I’m paraphrasing someone else’s words in another topic here)

There’s no lack of power to compensate. The attribute points which used to be in the traitlines will be compensated, some through a base attribute increase (from 926 to 1000) and the rest through gear attribute increase.
Depending what they do with secondary attributes, the final value might result on a small gain or a small loss as long as the gear was in line with the chosen traitline.

Kanashi.5104:

Very good points and I agree with them. I’ll see if anyone else can counter argue WoP going into Zeal. We have had one above so far. These discussiosn are great.

A support Guardian is going to spec in Honor, so the question is, what makes for a more disputed contest, Writ of Persistence against Superior Aria or Zeal (with WoP as a Grandmaster) against Valor/Virtues?
Both options are viable; it’s all about how the remaining traits are aligned to reinforce a playstyle. Having, for example, Virtuous Mallet in Zeal can make a world of difference.

Kanashi.5104:

This makes it so that you produce a Symbol of Protection when you take falling damage OR disabled. This way it has more uses and synergies with the zeal line a bit more.

A Symbol of Protection when disabled with 10 second ICD is insane. That’s easily 45-60 second ICD worth (EDIT: Closer to 30-45 after checking other classes’ anti-CC traits).

In any case, whatever “when disabled” effect should replace Retaliatory Subconscious, which is just terrible.

The “fall damage reduction” Symbol of Protection could be merged with it.
In fact, it doesn’t matter where it goes as long as it doesn’t occupy that adept honor trait spot. A mace-only and a revive trait already make the options limited enough.

Vargamonth.2047:

Kanashi.5104:

This makes it so that you produce a Symbol of Protection when you take falling damage OR disabled. This way it has more uses and synergies with the zeal line a bit more.

A Symbol of Protection when disabled with 10 second ICD is insane. That’s easily 45-60 second ICD worth.

In any case, whatever “when disabled” effect should replace Retaliatory Subconscious, which is just terrible.

The “fall damage reduction” Symbol of Protection could be merged with it.
In fact, it doesn’t matter where it goes as long as it doesn’t occupy that adept honor trait spot. A mace-only and a revive trait already make the options limited enough.

Sorry I half knowing threw a random number in there. I think 40s would be fine and actually may be too high. That is only 1 symbol per minute when you can produce more than that with a Hammer.

I think the fall damage trait is fine where it is at currently. I believe making RS more of a viable option is easier for the designers. We don’t want to necessarily nix traits because that will most likely never get through. It is technically better now that it also gives you Aegis. This is what I added to it, maybe it’s not enough but it’s not that terrible:

Retaliatory Subconscious
Retaliation (3 3/4s)
Aegis (3 3/4s)?
add Retalation Lasts longer

What other trait could replace the Symbol trait if it was merged instead? That line is about support and all of those traits in adept are supportive. Making it so that they provide any extra benefit to just “you” may be to selfish and the wrong direction to go.

Thanks for your comments on WoP!

Also, the new location for Battle Presence. This trait will need some buff, there is no reason to take it over Indomitable Courage. This is already useless and will be even more weaker.

Mikau.6920:

Also, the new location for Battle Presence. This trait will need some buff, there is no reason to take it over Indomitable Courage. This is already useless and will be even more weaker.

BP was given the 15% endurance regeneration. In all honesty a supporting guardian would want to choose this. I believe both are viable choices, it just depends on what you want build wise.

Do you have any suggestions as to what could make it better or as enticing as IC?

Kanashi.5104:

Mikau.6920:

Also, the new location for Battle Presence. This trait will need some buff, there is no reason to take it over Indomitable Courage. This is already useless and will be even more weaker.

BP was given the 15% endurance regeneration. In all honesty a supporting guardian would want to choose this. I believe both are viable choices, it just depends on what you want build wise.

Do you have any suggestions as to what could make it better or as enticing as IC?

The heal is very little and it’s a GM trait, should have a big impact. Even working with the 15% endurance regeneration (which requires to go into Honor) is still weak. Also, as supportive guardian, Indomitable Courage is still better. Maybe add 5 sec of vigor when activating Virtue of Resolve, then it would be more viable.

Mikau.6920:

Kanashi.5104:

Mikau.6920:

Also, the new location for Battle Presence. This trait will need some buff, there is no reason to take it over Indomitable Courage. This is already useless and will be even more weaker.

BP was given the 15% endurance regeneration. In all honesty a supporting guardian would want to choose this. I believe both are viable choices, it just depends on what you want build wise.

Do you have any suggestions as to what could make it better or as enticing as IC?

The heal is very little and it’s a GM trait, should have a big impact. Even working with the 15% endurance regeneration (which requires to go into Honor) is still weak. Also, as supportive guardian, Indomitable Courage is still better. Maybe add 5 sec of vigor when activating Virtue of Resolve, then it would be more viable.

The heal is actually pretty decent. Especially when you have around 400-600 Healing Power. I’ve been able to provide almost 500 per 3 seconds as a passive so it really depends on how much you spec yourself into support and healing. Most support guards will be going into honor for that minor anyways.

Perhaps it does need something like vigor upon using it but I honestly believe it is fine the way it is. IC is great for the Stability and now the Stun-break is rolled into it. Is IC going to outclass it? Eh, I can’t say for sure without seeing the new builds in practice.

Kanashi.5104:

Sorry I half knowing threw a random number in there. I think 40s would be fine and actually may be too high. That is only 1 symbol per minute when you can produce more than that with a Hammer.

I think the fall damage trait is fine where it is at currently. I believe making RS more of a viable option is easier for the designers. We don’t want to necessarily nix traits because that will most likely never get through. It is technically better now that it also gives you Aegis. This is what I added to it, maybe it’s not enough but it’s not that terrible:

Retaliatory Subconscious
Retaliation (3 3/4s)
Aegis (3 3/4s)?
add Retalation Lasts longer

What other trait could replace the Symbol trait if it was merged instead? That line is about support and all of those traits in adept are supportive. Making it so that they provide any extra benefit to just “you” may be to selfish and the wrong direction to go.

Yes, 45-60 seconds is too much. Looking at other classes anti-CC skills 30-45, probably closer to 30, makes much more sense.
The main reason for replacing Retaliatory Subconscious is that every class has one, and only one, “when disabled” triggered trait (RS being ours), and seems far better to free a spot in honor than in virtues, since offers far less choices.

As a replacement, well, that’s complicated.
Two out of three minors improve your endurance regeneration while the third one provides a tiny AoE heal which is far more reliable for self sustain than as a healing tool.
Those minors could easily appeal to someone looking for survivability rather than support. Quite a few players are currently investing in honor just for Two Handed Mastery and Force of Will, force example.
If you want to stick to some strong concept for each line, however, there are far less possibilities. Strength in Numbers could work I guess; it’s clearly supportive and generic enough to fit in any build.

In agreement with the Honor adepts being less than desirable. The other two options (Fall trait) needs to be reworked. I can see the others being useful for say a support build but there should definitely be a better option. Maybe add on if you’re cced that you put down a symbol of protection with a 25-30 sec icd?

Salamander.2504:

Exedore.6320:

All the symbol stuff should be in Zeal, most notably Writ of Persistence

I have to disagree 100%. […] Writ of Persistence is great where it is.

You’re over-inflating the support benefit to the three symbol traits which were rolled into Writ of Persistence. At the same time, you’re not looking at how the new trait system works when considering trait placement. I’ll focus more on PvP, but also touch on PvE.

First, the defensive and support aspect. A support or defensive guardian will usually be using two of hammer, mace, and staff. All three have symbols so it looks great, but you need to look at how allies utilize symbols. No matter which symbol it is, allies are not going to stand in them, even larger ones, for long. Staying mobile and kiting is a far bigger survivability advantage than any symbol provides. Staying put incurs more damage than what the symbol negates. And for hammer, the #1 chain often resets before the Symbol of Protection goes off when the guardian is kited in PvP or by AI.

That leaves the guardian as the overwhelming benefactor of Writ of Persistence. In actuality, it’s more self-defense than group support. Since it’s mostly for yourself and you’re defensive and able to stay in one place against light pressure, the size doesn’t matter as much. But against heavy pressure, you’ll want to move a lot and even the bigger symbols will leave you as a sitting duck for ranged DPS. The healing isn’t all that spectacular either. Even with maxed healing power, it doesn’t go over 200HP/tick. If the healing was boosted significantly, the trait would quickly become far too powerful, especially when combined with other symbol traits (subsequent paragraph). And with general increases to boon duration gone, you’re not getting as large of a benefit from stacking the boon of the symbol; it will last the duration of the symbol.

Then there’s the competing traits. Pure of Voice is a shoe-in, since shouts are still the best support abilities. And if you’re looking for healing, Force of Will kinda works. Assuming the healing on others part isn’t all that spectacular, you still frees up 300 stat points which you could put into healing power. Combined, that healing will outclass the healing from symbols without the restrictions of staying in one spot.

The problem with not combining the symbol traits into the same line and making them compete will cause balance nightmares. In particular, the anchor guardian (somewhat high defense meant to tank trash mobs while everyone else is full zerker). They’ll go Zeal and Honor, take lots of symbol traits and just let stuff melt while having permanent protection on top of huge damage increases. ANet will have to cripple symbol traits in order to break the build, but it makes the symbol traits uncompetitive with their peers in major trait slots. Stopping this collection of lots of overlapping traits is one of the reasons for moving to the specialization system; traits which modify specific sets of abilities are restricted to one line where they can be fully controlled, allowing for balance while remaining competitive.

Lastly, the argument for using Writ of Persistence with an offensive focus. The increased size and duration when combined with higher damage allows the option for an area denial build. If you go near the guardian for this period, you’ll take heavy damage, but lose that if they chase out of that area. It fits the lack of guardian mobility compared to other professions. The small amount of healing is just a bonus, and can be easily tweaked without hurting the trait. It can also directly compete with Symbolic Avenger. Symbolic Avenger provides concentrated damage, but you can get off the symbol easily. Writ of Persistence would make it harder to avoid the symbol, but the damage is spread out.

And by keeping the symbols in a trait line with offensive focus, it encourages more build variety. The anchor guardian I mentioned before would still be perfectly viable and could take other Honor traits. But they aren’t seeing the huge damage increases because some symbol traits are now mutually exclusive. You could also mix that up with a PvP focus where you push in with a group and take over nodes, but you can’t readily survive on your own at the same time.

TLDR: Writ of Persistence doesn’t really support all that well outside of PvE. By not making it mutually exclusive with other symbol traits, it creates a balance issue where it couldn’t be competitive with its peers in a major trait slot. Putting it in Zeal doesn’t prevent it from being used in conjunction with a supportive build, but allows better balance through mutual exclusion.

Exedore.6320:

First, the defensive and support aspect. A support or defensive guardian will usually be using two of hammer, mace, and staff. All three have symbols so it looks great, but you need to look at how allies utilize symbols. No matter which symbol it is, allies are not going to stand in them, even larger ones, for long.

I just don’t see any hammer/mace/staff support-oriented guardian wanting to invest in Zeal. Also, allies won’t stand in them long, but opponents even shorter, so symbols are still more defensive than offensive.

Exedore.6320:

That leaves the guardian as the overwhelming benefactor of Writ of Persistence. In actuality, it’s more self-defense than group support. Since it’s mostly for yourself and you’re defensive and able to stay in one place against light pressure, the size doesn’t matter as much.

I agree, but I still don’t understand why a highly defensive trait belongs in Zeal if trait “specialization” is the path forward. Sure, lumping all symbols effects in the same traitline is specializing towards symbols, but by play style, I think WoM is still Honor.

Exedore.6320:

The problem with not combining the symbol traits into the same line and making them compete will cause balance nightmares. In particular, the anchor guardian (somewhat high defense meant to tank trash mobs while everyone else is full zerker). They’ll go Zeal and Honor, take lots of symbol traits and just let stuff melt while having permanent protection on top of huge damage increases.

Maybe, but an Honor symbol guardian investing into Zeal is taking a big hit by losing out on Radiance or Virtues, because none of the other Zeal symbol traits are good, and I don’t see any synergy with the other Zeal traits (please point out if I’m wrong here, though). That being said, using +20% damage on symbols without any symbol enlargement means that trait will be even less useful than unscathed contender: (1) UC can be used from range, but 3/4 of the symbols are made in melee; (2) dodging/running out of a small symbol is so easy, one would be hard pressed to get even a single hit off. By putting WoM in Zeal, we’d be making the +20% damage trait useless (and really, its not that good to begin with because folks can still waltz out of a large symbol).

Exedore.6320:

Lastly, the argument for using Writ of Persistence with an offensive focus. The increased size and duration when combined with higher damage allows the option for an area denial build. If you go near the guardian for this period, you’ll take heavy damage, but lose that if they chase out of that area. It fits the lack of guardian mobility compared to other professions.

Isn’t area denial defensive rather than offensive? I’m not sure what I’m gaining by argueing semantics (sorry), but I just want to stress the defensive nature of WoM, and why I feel it doesn’t belong in Zeal.

Exedore.6320:

And by keeping the symbols in a trait line with offensive focus, it encourages more build variety.

I need to think on this, but my preliminary thought is that in your scenario, the archtypical symbol guardian is going to be forced into Honor (for mace trait) and Zeal (WoM) rather than just Honor (the way it currently is), which doesn’t sound like build diversity to me (this statement is predicated on the fact that I really just don’t see many symbol guards caring about the +20% damage from Zeal because it doesn’t make for a versatile “ready for anything” build whatsoever).

Exedore.6320:

TLDR: Writ of Persistence doesn’t really support all that well outside of PvE. By not making it mutually exclusive with other symbol traits, it creates a balance issue where it couldn’t be competitive with its peers in a major trait slot. Putting it in Zeal doesn’t prevent it from being used in conjunction with a supportive build, but allows better balance through mutual exclusion.

If you put it in Zeal, nobody will take it at all because the only symbol builds that will utilize Zeal will be DPS-oriented builds that will take the increased damage trait instead. Zeal has very little synergy as far as a support build is concerned, so it just doesn’t make sense to put a support-oriented trait there, even if it is supposedly the “designated” symbol spec.

@Salamander @ Black Box

What Exedore is referring to is that these trait trees are no longer “Zeal is for DPS.” Yes the skills may increase damage but the point of going into this is to specialize into symbols and what seems to be condition scaling (burning). Technically, a bunker guardian could try running zeal so that he has better area denial on the point and attempt to whittle down his opponent with burns.

He could take more damage for symbols and rely on placement to makeup for the smaller area OR he could take writ and not worry about the placement as much, but also get longer buffs and more healing.

@Salamander

because none of the other Zeal symbol traits are good

This weakens your argument as you mention this several times. All because “you” don’t think the traits are good for your style of play doesn’t mean there isn’t a style of play. I’m not saying that as a way to call you out, but as an example as to what Exedore is trying to say. Having it in a different trait lines is similar to having AH and Monk’s focus in separate lines (not comparing potency). Those who want to go into symbols will most likely, note most likely, get both.

Regardless it all depends on style of play. The idea is to open up options for meaningful play, not B-line and stacked traits.

Keep up the discussion. This has been really great so far and I believe there are other traits we could look at as well. The more solid reasons behind these ideas the more likely they will leave in impact with any of the designers who frequent these boards.

Kanashi.5104:

@Salamander @ Black Box

What Exedore is referring to is that these trait trees are no longer “Zeal is for DPS.” Yes the skills may increase damage but the point of going into this is to specialize into symbols and what seems to be condition scaling (burning). Technically, a bunker guardian could try running zeal so that he has better area denial on the point and attempt to whittle down his opponent with burns.

He could take more damage for symbols and rely on placement to makeup for the smaller area OR he could take writ and not worry about the placement as much, but also get longer buffs and more healing.

@Salamander

because none of the other Zeal symbol traits are good

This weakens your argument as you mention this several times. All because “you” don’t think the traits are good for your style of play doesn’t mean there isn’t a style of play. I’m not saying that as a way to call you out, but as an example as to what Exedore is trying to say. Having it in a different trait lines is similar to having AH and Monk’s focus in separate lines (not comparing potency). Those who want to go into symbols will most likely, note most likely, get both.

Regardless it all depends on style of play. The idea is to open up options for meaningful play, not B-line and stacked traits.

Keep up the discussion. This has been really great so far and I believe there are other traits we could look at as well. The more solid reasons behind these ideas the more likely they will leave in impact with any of the designers who frequent these boards.

One look at the current traits in Zeal will tell you that it is still going to be an offensive-oriented spec. People aren’t going to take Zeal if they’re running support because Honor and Virtues are both far superior in terms of overall benefit to support builds. If WoP were moved to Zeal, people would just give it up in favor of whatever else they can take from Honor/Virtues. The only people that would run symbols and take Zeal would be people that would better benefit from the +20% dmg trait, and thus they would not take WoP.