Guild Wars 2

It’s perfectly possible to have WoP in Zeal; you just need to provide some useful choices to the remaining tiers, like Virtuous Mallet, which is clearly a control related trait.
Giving up AH migtht look risky, but it’s not preposterous.

There are a few problems with this approach though.

Hammer isn’t that much a symbol weapon in PvP, so it barely has any sinergy with SA and minor traits.
For PvE, on the other hand, it’s not as much a control weapon and the 20% CD reduction loses most of it’s charm . The slow component could be useful (albeit the proposed rework makes it weaker. Not sure about the reasons behind that rework, it looks like a nerf to me), but definitely not necessary to make the weapon synergyze with SA and minors.
The original placement as a Virtues Master tier trait, in direct competition with Absolute Resolution, was rather unconvenient, but doesn’t like it belongs to Zeal either.
It might have slightly better synergy with WoP, specially the radius part, but none of these traits were in the original Zeal design.

This process of making Zeal more appealing to supportive builds doesn’t come with no cost, as it necessarily deprives other builds from meaningul choices. It’s quite disgusting, for example, to see the whole Master tier filled with weapon specific traits.

WoP and SA competing with each other has both positive and negative implications. The reallocation could increase diversity for supportive builds but, at the same time, prevents some more damage oriented ones from existing
For PvE, it limits the potential of some builds (which might be a good thing), but also leaves them with little reason to delve into Honor (as it is now). If not looked at, this kind of balancing could easily force some playstyles into filler specializations with no meaningful options.

IMHO, the best placement for WoP is probably Master Honor tier.
By shaving the increased duration by 1 second, it becomes far less a boost for damage PvE builds, while making it not mutually exclusive with Superior Aria makes it much more a useful choice and increases diversity for both offensive and defensive PvP and WvW builds.

Black Box.9312:

If you put it in Zeal, nobody will take it at all because the only symbol builds that will utilize Zeal will be DPS-oriented builds that will take the increased damage trait instead.

Disagree. The 20% against enemies standing on symbols is pretty big, but most symbols only last about 4 seconds. How many attacks can you get off in that time in PvE? What about in PvP where an enemy is likely to move off your symbol in 2 seconds or less, usually with some form of an evade? ANet also may tweak that 20% if it’s too good (likely true for PvE if AI doesn’t improve).

In PvE, you can look at Writ of Persistence as 40% increased symbol damage (67% with hammer) and 2% increased party damage for 3 seconds per symbol. And then you get some more boon benefit and a little bit of healing on the side. In PvP, it’s much harder to get out of the symbol and you give up more ground to do so.

Zeal has very little synergy as far as a support build is concerned, so it just doesn’t make sense to put a support-oriented trait there, even if it is supposedly the “designated” symbol spec.

Is it support-oriented just because it has a small healing component? If it didn’t have the healing component, would you consider it support? Does that mean Zealous Blade is self-survival?

@Salamander.2504
I’m curious what game modes you play (PvE, WvW, PvP) or what you’re focusing on.

In PvE, you typically go full offense. There’s little need for heavy support and I doubt that will change anytime soon. Most of the support-ish guardian PvE builds which used the current symbol traits in Honor did so in part because they got a benefit from them offensively as well.

In PvP there are much better supportive choices in Honor than the new Writ of Persistence. I already described its weaknesses. The best use of the new Writ of Persistence is to pair it with other symbol traits from Zeal to make a hybrid build. And that begs the question: why not just combine them into one line to focus on symbols.

What you guys think about Binding Jeopardy? Even with Wrath of Justice (immobilizes) trait is still weak. You could use scepter and hammer to boost up, but is only 3 stacks of vulnerability on 10 seconds.

They should put Blind Exposure instead.

Binding Jeopardy will most likely to be a dead trait as is now.

Mikau.6920:

What you guys think about Binding Jeopardy? Even with Wrath of Justice (immobilizes) trait is still weak. You could use scepter and hammer to boost up, but is only 3 stacks of vulnerability on 10 seconds.

They should put Blind Exposure instead.

Binding Jeopardy will most likely to be a dead trait as is now.

Binding Jeopardy will do the exact same thing as blind exposure do right now, but they buff it to work with immobilize too. The reason why it will be use less is because it’s now a master trait in competition with Zealous blind. All GS + X build will take Zealous blade before Binding Jeopardy, which mean that it’s limited to build without a GS.

Exedore.6320:

@Salamander.2504
I’m curious what game modes you play (PvE, WvW, PvP) or what you’re focusing on.

In PvP there are much better supportive choices in Honor than the new Writ of Persistence. I already described its weaknesses.

Pure PvP. I’d argue that there aren’t “much better” choices—there are equal choices. In the current setup, WoP is competing with PoV and FoW. PoV is fantastic for team support, but it forces you to use shouts, and so becomes majorly redundant with the fact that some well-used utilities (e.g., SYG, SY) are already a personal stunbreak. It isn’t a super reliable condi cleanse because it only clears 1, and so you’ll need to either take Absolute Resolution (don’t give up virtues), purging flames , or a soldier rune (say bye bye to DPS) to compensate. If you want to use consecrations (or even [gasp] a signet, in the upcoming patch), you’re hurting yourself. It also doesn’t offer any sustained healing/dps/area control that WoP has. All in all, I’ve say PoV is quite equal to WoP—by using WoP over PoV, we’re essentially sacrificing long-range condi cleanse/boon application for shorter range modest healing and damage. FoW is pretty straightforward, and I don’t find the extra healing power all that compelling when the best way to protect my party isn’t to heal them but offer protection, aegis, blinds, and some cc (hammer).

Exedore.6320:

The best use of the new Writ of Persistence is to pair it with other symbol traits from Zeal to make a hybrid build. And that begs the question: why not just combine them into one line to focus on symbols.

That’s a strong statement, and I don’t think it’s totally accurate. Lets take a look at the other symbol traits:
Symbols apply vulnerability to foes: 1 stack of a 3.25 second vuln a second? Unreliable, and worse: useless. Who cares about a short and low stack of vuln?
Increased symbol damage by 10% and 33% chance to apply 1 stack of 1 s burning: First of all, 10% damage only for symbols is terrible compared to 10% increased damage when your endurance isn’t full (the current equivalent honor trait which we lose in the new system). Moreover, no one who uses symbols in PvP is using them as a primary mechanism for DPS because they aren’t reliable. They are useful for area control and self/party healing/protection synergized with AH. The extra damage if they don’t run out of them is just icing on the cake. Which is why WoP will always be taken over Symbolic Power.
I and others have already stated above why Symbol Power is useless on it’s own.

Kanashi.5104:

because none of the other Zeal symbol traits are good

This weakens your argument as you mention this several times. All because “you” don’t think the traits are good for your style of play doesn’t mean there isn’t a style of play. I’m not saying that as a way to call you out…

?_? Why invite discussion and feedback and then make ad hominem attacks? This has nothing to do with my play style, and everything to do with suboptimal trait placement in your spreadsheet.

Thaddeus.4891:

Mikau.6920:

What you guys think about Binding Jeopardy? Even with Wrath of Justice (immobilizes) trait is still weak. You could use scepter and hammer to boost up, but is only 3 stacks of vulnerability on 10 seconds.

They should put Blind Exposure instead.

Binding Jeopardy will most likely to be a dead trait as is now.

Binding Jeopardy will do the exact same thing as blind exposure do right now, but they buff it to work with immobilize too. The reason why it will be use less is because it’s now a master trait in competition with Zealous blind. All GS + X build will take Zealous blade before Binding Jeopardy, which mean that it’s limited to build without a GS.

I didn’t know. TY for info.

Mikau.6920:

What you guys think about Binding Jeopardy? Even with Wrath of Justice (immobilizes) trait is still weak. You could use scepter and hammer to boost up, but is only 3 stacks of vulnerability on 10 seconds.

They should put Blind Exposure instead.

Binding Jeopardy will most likely to be a dead trait as is now.

If they were to up it to 5-6 stacks of vulnerability then it could easily compete with zealous blade

Would make some sense to put WoP in the Zeal line but I don’t think it would be a good idea to compete with SA. A master would make more sense as to keep all things symbol within the Zeal line.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

Mikau.6920:

What you guys think about Binding Jeopardy? Even with Wrath of Justice (immobilizes) trait is still weak. You could use scepter and hammer to boost up, but is only 3 stacks of vulnerability on 10 seconds.

They should put Blind Exposure instead.

Binding Jeopardy will most likely to be a dead trait as is now.

If they were to up it to 5-6 stacks of vulnerability then it could easily compete with zealous blade

Then it would be better than Zealous blade. It’s fine as it is now, Zealous Blade will be the best choice for a GS build, but most other build will use Binding Jeopardy. If it give 5-6 vulnerability, then all build would use Binding Jeopardy.

I think you have some fair points. Nothing much to discuss in regards to your trait comments. However, making Tomes like kits? No. No. No.
Having more classes that can more or less spam their skills like Ele and Engineer is not the way to go.
I would much rather that the #5 and #4 skills were actually useful, and I believe they can be with a few tweaks.
For insance, “Light Of Deliverance” should have a much shorter cast time, especially since equipping the tome also has a cast time.
It is literally impossible to time that skill, since GW2 is rather fast paced.
But being in the dilemma “Do I use my Tome now and go for the heal or do I save for later?” is REALLY healthy for GW2, and in my opinion we need more of these decisions to make.
Atm people just spam their elites; popping signet of rage whenever off cooldown, Renewed Focus whenever taking dmg, using Entangle to cleanse conditions.
Doesn’t really feel like an elite..?

KrisHQ.4719:

I think you have some fair points. Nothing much to discuss in regards to your trait comments. However, making Tomes like kits? No. No. No.
Having more classes that can more or less spam their skills like Ele and Engineer is not the way to go.
I would much rather that the #5 and #4 skills were actually useful, and I believe they can be with a few tweaks.
For insance, “Light Of Deliverance” should have a much shorter cast time, especially since equipping the tome also has a cast time.
It is literally impossible to time that skill, since GW2 is rather fast paced.
But being in the dilemma “Do I use my Tome now and go for the heal or do I save for later?” is REALLY healthy for GW2, and in my opinion we need more of these decisions to make.
Atm people just spam their elites; popping signet of rage whenever off cooldown, Renewed Focus whenever taking dmg, using Entangle to cleanse conditions.
Doesn’t really feel like an elite..?

You wouldn’t be able to spam skills. The idea would be that you could access the tome at any time, however the tome’s sub-abilities would have higher cooldowns to compensate. That way you aren’t locked into the current all-or-nothing predicament that it currently faces, let alone the whole “being a transformation and eliminating your utilities and virtues” predicament they face in their current form.

Black Box.9312:

KrisHQ.4719:

I think you have some fair points. Nothing much to discuss in regards to your trait comments. However, making Tomes like kits? No. No. No.
Having more classes that can more or less spam their skills like Ele and Engineer is not the way to go.
I would much rather that the #5 and #4 skills were actually useful, and I believe they can be with a few tweaks.
For insance, “Light Of Deliverance” should have a much shorter cast time, especially since equipping the tome also has a cast time.
It is literally impossible to time that skill, since GW2 is rather fast paced.
But being in the dilemma “Do I use my Tome now and go for the heal or do I save for later?” is REALLY healthy for GW2, and in my opinion we need more of these decisions to make.
Atm people just spam their elites; popping signet of rage whenever off cooldown, Renewed Focus whenever taking dmg, using Entangle to cleanse conditions.
Doesn’t really feel like an elite..?

You wouldn’t be able to spam skills. The idea would be that you could access the tome at any time, however the tome’s sub-abilities would have higher cooldowns to compensate. That way you aren’t locked into the current all-or-nothing predicament that it currently faces, let alone the whole “being a transformation and eliminating your utilities and virtues” predicament they face in their current form.

But having to decide if now is the right time, what you call “all or nothing predicament” is extremely healthy for the game. The game is already way too fast paced, with classes more or less spamming their skills constantly. It’s always better just to spam your abilities, rather than wait for the right moment.
And yes, this a slight exaggeration, but my point still stands.

KrisHQ.4719:

Black Box.9312:

KrisHQ.4719:

I think you have some fair points. Nothing much to discuss in regards to your trait comments. However, making Tomes like kits? No. No. No.
Having more classes that can more or less spam their skills like Ele and Engineer is not the way to go.
I would much rather that the #5 and #4 skills were actually useful, and I believe they can be with a few tweaks.
For insance, “Light Of Deliverance” should have a much shorter cast time, especially since equipping the tome also has a cast time.
It is literally impossible to time that skill, since GW2 is rather fast paced.
But being in the dilemma “Do I use my Tome now and go for the heal or do I save for later?” is REALLY healthy for GW2, and in my opinion we need more of these decisions to make.
Atm people just spam their elites; popping signet of rage whenever off cooldown, Renewed Focus whenever taking dmg, using Entangle to cleanse conditions.
Doesn’t really feel like an elite..?

You wouldn’t be able to spam skills. The idea would be that you could access the tome at any time, however the tome’s sub-abilities would have higher cooldowns to compensate. That way you aren’t locked into the current all-or-nothing predicament that it currently faces, let alone the whole “being a transformation and eliminating your utilities and virtues” predicament they face in their current form.

But having to decide if now is the right time, what you call “all or nothing predicament” is extremely healthy for the game. The game is already way too fast paced, with classes more or less spamming their skills constantly. It’s always better just to spam your abilities, rather than wait for the right moment.
And yes, this a slight exaggeration, but my point still stands.

How exactly is that “healthy” for the game? It does nothing but create this sense of
“Is this skill worth using if I only need one of the 5 skills it provides?”
“No.”
“Okay, I’ll take a different skill instead.”

The goal is to make all skills worth taking in at least one common situation. When you lock these 5 good, but not elite-worthy skills behind a single larger cooldown, people are less inclined to take the larger skill because it feels much less worthwhile. The cost of taking it over another elite far outweighs the benefit, which is one of the main reasons why you see nearly EVERY guardian currently running Renewed Focus.

back to whats important (typically anything i care about):

honor trait line, esp those adept traits. we (the royal we) all agree that protector’s impact and protective reviver should be merged to 1 trait. then we can bring back elusive power, which appears to be missing.

Anyone know how Virtue of Justice will be with the burning changes?

I have looked over the discussion so far and made some changes. I combined RS & PI, which leaves an empty space in honor. Anet would need to fill this as it is their intent. We could make suggestions but I don’t know how far the extra thought would go.

Virtuous Mallet was swapped with Retributive Armor, I don’t know what they intend with RA because it says Ferocity in the tool tip. Perhaps that is what it will be and that may fit with the DPS aspects of zeal. The issue we are running into is that many of the remaining traits are lackluster and increasing their potency will serve to only make the guardian too strong. We are reaching a point where it is difficult to balance without rewriting or creating new traits.

There was mention of moving WoP to Master in Zeal, how do we feel about that? Or should it juts be moved back to it’s original place, but perhaps remain master?

Are there any other traits that need discussion? Placement? Remember you can leave comments on the spreadsheet as well.

@Salamander

My intent was not to make it seem like I was attacking you. I know that is hard via text but my point was that your comment was heavily opinionated. Majority of the traits in the zeal tree were there to begin with. The original comment was about how the zeal traits were “bad” and at the end of your last comment “my” position of traits is now what is bad. That is a fine example of ad hominem. So Yes I agree that we shouldn’t attack each other, which again wasn’t my intent. I wanted to split your opinion from the base design itself.

I’m part of a GvG guild and with the changes Anet proposed it is likely that we may go into zeal as frontline guardians. Moving Superior Aria can possible break the original meta we had. It possible for us to still choose that line and go with that trait, but we may miss out on potential play with our symbols. Guardian symbols are heavily used in the GvG scene and in high-end wvw. This is the style of play I am part of and I don’t ask that we make those changes for me or those that GvG, but the current direction zeal is going even without the feedback and my suggestions proves useful to some.

p.s. please do not make this thread about gvg, I don’t want it locked.

Synergy being the key, Writ of Persistence should be moved to the Zeal line as a Master. If the only real argument for it being in Honor is due to the healing aspect of it, remove it then.

Mikau.6920:

Anyone know how Virtue of Justice will be with the burning changes?

I’m a bit worried about this as well, honestly. It’s hard to say what will happen with guardian’s burning upkeep, and by association Fiery Wrath upkeep, without knowing how they’re going to change VoJ to compensate for the change to burning.

Kanashi.5104:

I have looked over the discussion so far and made some changes. I combined RS & PI, which leaves an empty space in honor. Anet would need to fill this as it is their intent. We could make suggestions but I don’t know how far the extra thought would go.

missing honor trait = elusive power. its missing now. it was an honor trait, it fits the honor theme w/ respect to dodges, and adds some dmg mod that the line could use

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Elusive_Power

Arken.3725:

Synergy being the key, Writ of Persistence should be moved to the Zeal line as a Master. If the only real argument for it being in Honor is due to the healing aspect of it, remove it then.

Heavens no! Writ of Persistence should stay within the Honor line because it is crucial to us Cleric Guardians! We need the larger symbols/healing symbols as part of our build to function, and those traits have always been in Honor because they compliment the symbols created with Maces and Hammers, which are support-oriented weapons. Honor is all about support, so the theme fits. I actually just wish the Writ of Persistence trait was moved to a Major trait in the same tree, and I think it should replace Pure of Heart (aegis heals when it blocks) because no one uses that trait at all. It also makes sense this way because none of the effects of the redesigned Writ of Persistence were ever GM traits, they were all minor and major traits. I think putting it as a GM trait is wrong. It would actually detract from my current build because I’m able to run the Healing symbol setup + Pure of Voice. Now I have to loose Pure of Voice because my build won’t function properly without the Healing symbols.

If anything, Hammer is a dps/cc type of weapon, not support. Zeal IS the symbol line, this is a fact that cannot be disputed so it only makes sense that WoP be moved there.

Arken.3725:

If anything, Hammer is a dps/cc type of weapon, not support. Zeal IS the symbol line, this is a fact that cannot be disputed so it only makes sense that WoP be moved there.

But the symbol traits have been part of the Honor line since launch (unless i’m wrong about that), and they have allowed Cleric Guardians to exist due to the healing the symbols provide. If you take that away, then the only “tanky-support/healing” build we have will be lost. Lots of people run this build, there’s even someone who uses it to tank fractals with it

Guardians already have several DPS builds, but in terms of support builds, it kinda boils down to variations of the same kind of Support Build (shouts, healing, etc). Losing the healing part would render these builds useless, because if we can’t heal, it makes Cleric Gear and the entire healing playstyle (that has existed since launch) obsolete and useless. If I can’t be the same kind of Cleric Guardian that I am now, I can’t see myself sticking with this game when HoT comes out. I’m happy with what I have now because I get to play a support role (primarily through healing). If they take that away from Guardians, not many people are going to be happy about that. The Devs want to encourage players to use different builds, not just DPS. Gutting a crucial element of a Cleric Guardian’s build is not how you would go about encouraging the use of more diverse builds.

cletiscake.9173:

Arken.3725:

If anything, Hammer is a dps/cc type of weapon, not support. Zeal IS the symbol line, this is a fact that cannot be disputed so it only makes sense that WoP be moved there.

But the symbol traits have been part of the Honor line since launch (unless i’m wrong about that), and they have allowed Cleric Guardians to exist due to the healing the symbols provide. If you take that away, then the only “tanky-support/healing” build we have will be lost. Lots of people run this build, there’s even someone who uses it to tank fractals with it

Guardians already have several DPS builds, but in terms of support builds, it kinda boils down to variations of the same kind of Support Build (shouts, healing, etc). Losing the healing part would render these builds useless, because if we can’t heal, it makes Cleric Gear and the entire healing playstyle (that has existed since launch) obsolete and useless. If I can’t be the same kind of Cleric Guardian that I am now, I can’t see myself sticking with this game when HoT comes out. I’m happy with what I have now because I get to play a support role (primarily through healing). If they take that away from Guardians, not many people are going to be happy about that. The Devs want to encourage players to use different builds, not just DPS. Gutting a crucial element of a Cleric Guardian’s build is not how you would go about encouraging the use of more diverse builds.

I really hope that healing will more viable, so I can dust off my Cleric and even my Zealot sets. The only class that is worth to use healing is Elementalist right now, at least for me.

Writ of Persistence really shouldn’t competing with Pure of Voice. This will make shouts less viable to support with symbols. But might be viable with consecrations. Let’s wait to see how they will change.

Mikau.6920:

cletiscake.9173:

Arken.3725:

If anything, Hammer is a dps/cc type of weapon, not support. Zeal IS the symbol line, this is a fact that cannot be disputed so it only makes sense that WoP be moved there.

(…)

I really hope that healing will more viable, so I can dust off my Cleric and even my Zealot sets. The only class that is worth to use healing is Elementalist right now, at least for me.

Writ of Persistence really shouldn’t competing with Pure of Voice. This will make shouts less viable to support with symbols. But might be viable with consecrations. Let’s wait to see how they will change.

Well if classes get more defensive builds players will complain becouse its ahrder to kill, if a zerker takes long time kill a cleric guardian event with active gameplay nor the guardan can kill the target, the zerker will complain how about guardian is OP for sure.
Anet made the dps wins vs all mentality to well and that was not healthy gameplay at all, if it will be changed with will need time.

Side note: not atacking zerker users.

it just makes more sense to me, especially since ArenaNet are trying to make symbols more offensive. the damage completely out weighs the healing aspect symbols can deliver. I am speaking strictly about structured PvP where landing symbols on players that are untraited become nearly impossible and thus not even making SA even worth taking by itself.

People are forgetting that with the new system, you choose three specializations, not one. The point is to make each specialization line narrow and force you to actually specialize – not just pick the best low-hanging traits from all lines.

If all symbol traits were put into one line and you wanted the moderate healing from symbols, take it. You still have two other choices and you can still pick a group support line and a utility line or self-survival line.

Additionally, I would argue that consecration trait(s) should be in Honor rather than Virtues.

@ Exedore.

But these specializations need to be defined by the tree’s their distributed within. 4/5 Symbol traits are in Zeal, why is one of them in the “support” line? Because of the healing added on to it? Each tree seems to have a theme and to have traits jumbled all over just doesn’t jive with me.

Arken.3725:

why is one of them in the “support” line?

Because nobody would take it if that was the case. Right now, they could put it as a Zeal grandmaster. After the new trait? They can’t. Symbolic Avenger will always be a better choice over it. What they could do, is to downgrade it to only symbol duration and make it an adept or master trait. That could work.

That’s my suggestion Thaddeus, remove the healing ticks and make it a Master in Zeal to fit the symbol theme that Zeal represents. It still feels like even with the merging of the symbol traits that PoV will still be the superior option to support Guardians regardless so I see this being left in the dust.

WoP is a support trait designed to be used with Staff, Hammer, and Mace. No one would take WoP as a GM in zeal and you also alienate the Cleric Guardian who use it for support.

Arken.3725:

That’s my suggestion Thaddeus, remove the healing ticks and make it a Master in Zeal to fit the symbol theme that Zeal represents. It still feels like even with the merging of the symbol traits that PoV will still be the superior option to support Guardians regardless so I see this being left in the dust.

Honestly, I’m of the opinion that PoV has been obsolete ever since they “fixed” it back to one condition per shout. I think running two shouts with soldier/trooper runes along with Purging Flames and healing symbols is more effective. I know I’ll be running WoP over PoV on my reworked bunker build, at least.

@ Phokus, Having it compete with SA makes no sense. Nerf it a little to bring it down to master-tier so you can specialize more. And make no mistake, from an spvp PoV, the benefit of standing in your symbol, regardless of how much you traited into it, will never yield any real benefit compared to getting cleaved.

@Black Box, I remember that change and back then, it still didn’t seem like enough condition removal when it was “broken”. However, with the combination of supportive Boons/conversion, I find it to be far superior to any symbol trait in spvp where the target(ally or enemy) is always moving and thus not taking (minor) advantage of the symbols effect.

Symbolic Avenger’s numbers aren’t final. It will likely be reduced to compensate for brain-dead PvE mobs which stand in your symbols. And if the AI actually improves to avoid powerful AoE effects, Symbolic Avenger’s weaknesses will be more obvious.

@Arken.3725
You realize I started this whole “move WoP to Zeal” thing, right? The trait specializations for many professions, not just guardians, have traits following mostly the same layout as they do on live. Many need re-arranged to meet the specialization goal. The layout on live was done to prevent or discourage over-specialization.

The reduction to SA would make absolutely no sense due to the stipulations I listed(spvp) time and again. It’s not about who started what, it’s about what makes sense. I can see SA being adjusted for PvE due to the brain dead nature of AI so yeah, it makes sense.

It’s most likely to nerf Symbolic Avenger on PvE instead of straight nerf, if this is the case. This trait is not OP at all on PvP or WvW. Is very easy to avoid symbols from players.

Before the consolidation of WoP in HoT, there were 3 traits within the Honor line that improved symbols. This goes to show that symbols are not Exclusive to Zeal. It makes sense this way, because it allows symbols to remain relevant whether you are a DPS Guardian or a Cleric Guardian. In HoT, WoP is a trait for Support Guardians who use symbols, and SA is a trait for DPS Guardians who use symbols. This setup promotes diversity within builds. You can’t take away WoP from Honor, because it is crucial to support/healing builds. Symbols (when traited) are the ONLY source of relevant and consistent healing that a Guardian has. If we had another relevant source of healing, then symbols wouldn’t be as critical as they currently are. But as it stands, symbols are all we have.

I do agree that it shouldn’t be a GM trait. It should be a Major trait or else it will compete with Pure of Voice, which will diminish the effectiveness of support/shout builds. I think that trait that heals you when Aegis is removed (Pure of Heart, I think) should get removed as a major trait, and WoP should take it’s place. That way, support/shout builds can be preserved as they are now, without competing with PoV. And no one takes Pure of Heart anyways, that’s a very lacklustre trait.

I have been reading the thread with interest and would like to add my suggestion to it.

It seems to me that to create the new Writ of Persistance two opposing traits were rolled into one. Both honor master choices under the current system: Writ of the Merciful, a cleric guardian trait and Writ of Persistance, a Hammer DPS trait.

(While under the old system you could, of course, have two master choices together therefore possibly have WoP as well for the support build, but under the new system you cannot have two masters so I will leave that out for now)

The conflict now is between two groups of guardians who each want to have access to new WoP without going out of their way to a trait line that doesn’t offer them much else. DPS does not want to be in Honor, Support does not want to be in Zeal. Going into a trait-line full of trash for a mandatory trait is not a good, fun or interesting build decision. (Sacrifice is good, trash is not!)

So in my opinion the best thing is to split new WoP back up. Move the extended symbol duration into the hammer trait in the form “Symbol of Protection lasts longer.” to make it pure hammer, or maybe just keep the symbol duration for all symbols as support guardians may use hammer+otherSymbolWeapon anyway. This will spice up the hammer trait which could use something more. Then new WoP can be renamed to Writ of the Merciful and can get added healing or some other extra function to improve it’s support GM status (or move it to master instead)

I’m not sure where the hammer trait should be. Virtues seems awkward. Valor Master maybe, like Glacial Heart is right now anyway? Opposing it with GS in zeal isn’t very interesting. Maybe Hammer should be zeal as it is the only symbol autoattack weapon (and would be nice in the symbol line!) and greatsword move to radiance (which has more retal?).

I’d love to hear your ideas.

I might of missed it in the discussion, but NOW you also have Battle Presence not competing with PoV or WoP. Does that not change nothing? Not to mention the powerful synergy between Battle Presence, Absolute Resolution AND Purity of Body.

And besides, didn’t cleric guards didn’t took PoV from the start? And they were rolling with traited consecrations and melandru runes?

Symbolic Avenger and Writ of Persistence seem to overlap a bit too much. Both of them pretty much read “let’s buff hammer’s/ mace’s symbols”.

But I think WoP is fine where it is. Not (only) because of the healing, but because the radius increase and the longer duration is not only an offensive buff but a defensive/ utility buff too (well, it depends on which symbol it affects).

@WoodStatue,

I can agree with splitting up the traits or even adding new ones to the mix for Master Tier.

DPS: Increases size, duration

Supportive: Applies healing and increases duration.

Arken.3725:

@WoodStatue,

I can agree with splitting up the traits or even adding new ones to the mix for Master Tier.

DPS: Increases size, duration

Supportive: Applies healing and increases duration.

Increasing the size is as much supportive as it is for DPS.

Salamander.2504:

Arken.3725:

@WoodStatue,

I can agree with splitting up the traits or even adding new ones to the mix for Master Tier.

DPS: Increases size, duration

Supportive: Applies healing and increases duration.

Increasing the size is as much supportive as it is for DPS.

That is correct, i’m just speaking from an spvp Point-of-View where the damage outweighs the support thus it being almost a necessity for the larger symbols to be traited.

Edit: What I mean by that is the benefit of any boons you’ll gain by standing in symbols is significantly outweighed by the dmg you’ll receive by essentially standing still.

Honor has two symbols traits so syncronization is easier. Cuppled with WoP having a healing effect, the Honor line makes sense overall. Not to mention WoP would be too good for adept or master position in Zeal. It doesn’t fit. What would replace Honor’s gm? Definitely not Zeal’s SA.

I think trait synchronization would get worse if WoP was switched out and Anet isn’t going to completely overhall their traits unless they get huge feedback from the community. I rather save that freebee for when they don’t properly implement Aegis on Shield.

Speaking of trait reworks
I never understood Symbol of Protection. Since you kinda do fall to the ground from kb effects, I wish SoP triggered from knocked down effects as well. If I fell from a particular height, why offer Protection when it was gravity aggro? The floor isn’t going to attack back in 2s :/

Protection on SoP is a waste boon that needs to be replaced with Regen.

I would agree that splitting it up and making then major traits would satisfy both parties. Honor could have symbols that provide healing and 2s duration increase (which is important for perma protection on hammer) and zeal could have the duration increase and size increase? A part of me really wants the size increase to be made baseline, just to make symbols better in general.

I saw a great idea floated around of removing the falling damage traits and turning them into some form of mastery traits. That, IMHO, would go a long way for a lot of professions, and be a good thing in strengthening the Guardian’s Honor Adept traits.

Genesis.8572:

I saw a great idea floated around of removing the falling damage traits and turning them into some form of mastery traits.

They’re already modifying the fall damage traits to trigger on other events as well (like being CC’ed). They just didn’t have it ready for the preview for all professions.

@Kanashi

I just saw the spread sheet that you shared. What. The. Hell. You messed up all the traits. Why would you put shattered Aegis in Valor? Or focus mastery to compete with Communal Defenses, or WoP to compete with SA? For real now I feel like people want to change things only for the sake of changing things, those whole traits look like a mess now no offense.

Edit: Retributive Armor in Zeal?! Wtf or Absolute resolution now competes with MoC? Are you guys seeing that? Wow

AH needs to be a minor already in Valor similar to Warriors Adrenal Health in Defense, it will solve so many problems and free us from being pigeonholed with a mandatory GM. This way you can move WoP as a GM in Valor and also have PoV in Honor.

Of course adjust Meditations and AH numbers a bit, but it will be much better in the long run.

Radiant Retaliation needs to go Anet! Please stop pushing for Condi Retal builds, they are rat, and replace it with a GM worthy trait. The same with Empowering Might, Warrior already has Phalanx Strenght and it’s million times better. No need to have the same buff but in a weaker version.

Sorry I have not been around for a few days! Great comments. I will make some changes based on feedback.

@Creepmatic

The spreadsheet is a collaboration of comments from here. I’m attempting to place things where they make sense. The issue that is separating a lot of people is the feeling of the current system, which paints DPS with zeal, Healing with Valor, Utility with Virtues. While the new system will maintain this to a degree the idea is that each Tree is a specialization that makes you better at specific things within the class. You no longer choose a few points into this, and a few points into that. It’s 3 choices, you put all points into those three choices.

Shattered Aegis was moved to Valor because it had no other place to go at the moment, rather than commenting on how it is out of place please take the time to suggest where it should go.

Focus Mastery Competes with Communal Defenses because this opens up player choice. Do I want to be better with a focus or do I want to be better with a shield (disregard the shields lackluster skills)? If players can stack two weapons then they will stack two weapons rather than taking a different choice in adept. The idea isn’t to stack builds so that you will always choose JUST that trait. The idea is to provide a meaningful choice so that the player REALLY wants both, but has to make a decision. This opens of different styles of play and leads to a better balance within the class.

This is just my design philosophy. If you provide no meaningful choice then players will go with the only choice they have. This is evident with the current example of the Honor Tree, where the skills are ok in adept but they are too specific and leave little room for actual use.

Updates to spreadsheet:

-Split Writ of Persistence into Writ of Power and Writ of Persistence. Moved Writ of Power to Master Zeal. Moved Writ of Persistence to Master honor.

-Moved Shattered Aegis back into Zeal Grandmaster.

-Moved Retributive Armor into Valor and in the empty Adept slot.

-Swapped {{Virtous Mallet}} and Focus Mastery.

Remember, I am making many of these changes based on feedback from you guys in the thread. If I was in charge of guardians I would make many changes to how they are specialized. Wrapping a lot of traits into lines that make sense, creating ones to replace those that no longer fit. These are merely suggestions for Anet to look over. When designing for a class it is very helpful to see organized opinions. It can also be helpful just to see things moved around because what didn’t click before may click now.

Something to remember is that the designers for guardian are also trying to wrap in the new specializations and may have other directions for the class to go. A lot of great discuss and feedback as has taken place so far. It seems like the comments here and there are becoming too opinionated based on personal style of play. It is ok to change, even break the mold. Think outside the box and try to grasp several different playstyles.

Keep it up guys!

some more discussion about honor line needing help i’m noticing. i think someone mentioned that elusive power (+10% dmg when endurance not full) is missing and they should bring that back.

yeah, thats a good idea