Guild Wars 2

Ok, quick question? How does MF benefit the other people in your group?

I’m not sure why would anyone think that speedclearing is selfish, i don’t want to stay at CoE P3 for 45 minutes because someone thinks it is okay to run in no power garbage for PvE. Sometimes i have ~30 minutes to play and i want to get the most of it, fighting P3 alpha #1 for 4 minutes ins’t exactly what i am looking for.

Ah, i think i’ve never kicked someone because of his gear, but it doesn’t mean i enjoyed the never ending ride.

Seetoo.9316:

Ok, quick question? How does MF benefit the other people in your group?

The problem is that by applying such logic to all gear, everything that is not optimal should also “be removed” from the game or else it’s “promoting selfishness” for not being as efficient as possible. So in short, the reason I wasn’t against MF gear is that I knew the logic “MF is selfish” can be unfairly placed upon any other stat combo that isn’t meta or currently deemed “efficient” (MF gear isn’t selfish or altruistic, it’s just stats).

I never liked how MF gear made my character’s harder to play for the sakes of MF. Even the current boon stats (especially the Snowflake trinkets) have that problem.

However, I don’t even ask what people are wearing-I give them the benefit of the doubt that they will know what they are doing (and note that wearing Berserker’s is no guarantee that the player will play his character well.) Many Guardian players can make Soldier’s gear work for themselves, and I surely don’t feel like telling them how they should play-even if they are in my group, and I wouldn’t use what they use.

PVT is useless in PvE. There is no reason to use it whatsoever. No precision= no damage.

Fact: You gain more survivability as a Zerk Guard because you crit more, giving you permanent VIGOR with traits.

If you want the best of both worlds, go Knights though.

How do defensive stats help other people in your group, when you don’t always get hit?
Case 1: not taking the hit
Dodging invalidates any defensive stat you have. There’s no damage to mitigate using vit/toughness or damage to heal back with healing power when you don’t get hit. The only way anyone is FULLY utilizing their defensive stats is if they ALWAYS take damage.

Case 2: taking the hit
The only case of actually utilizing your defensive stats is when you take a hit (unless you count conversion traits). If that hit 1 shots you with the defensive stats, you may as well be naked (no vit no toughness). If the dps you take is greater than your hps, you will go down. Going defensive comes with the assumption of using those defenses (meaning you won’t be dodging,blocking, going invul as often as possible). No boss dies from not killing you (I haven’t done arah so maybe?). No boss dies because you mitigated x amount of damage. Note this is not about speed clears.

So bottom line:
How do defensive stats that you DON’T ALWAYS USE benefit the group equally or more than offensive stats you ALWAYS USE?

I’ve been trying to make “defensive” work, but the only thing that “works” with getting hit is retaliation. Ever finished a dungeon using just retal?

Seetoo.9316:

How do defensive stats help other people in your group, when you don’t always get hit?
Case 1: not taking the hit
Dodging invalidates any defensive stat you have. There’s no damage to mitigate using vit/toughness or damage to heal back with healing power when you don’t get hit. The only way anyone is FULLY utilizing their defensive stats is if they ALWAYS take damage.

Case 2: taking the hit
The only case of actually utilizing your defensive stats is when you take a hit (unless you count conversion traits). If that hit 1 shots you with the defensive stats, you may as well be naked (no vit no toughness). If the dps you take is greater than your hps, you will go down. Going defensive comes with the assumption of using those defenses (meaning you won’t be dodging,blocking, going invul as often as possible). No boss dies from not killing you (I haven’t done arah so maybe?). No boss dies because you mitigated x amount of damage. Note this is not about speed clears.

So bottom line:
How do defensive stats that you DON’T ALWAYS USE benefit the group equally or more than offensive stats you ALWAYS USE?

I’ve been trying to make “defensive” work, but the only thing that “works” with getting hit is retaliation. Ever finished a dungeon using just retal?

Ask ANet, once more, why are those stats available. Also, whether they should, or not be used on any given Dungeon, and if players are “doing it wrong” (being “selfish”) by choosing anything other than Berserker’s.

In short, this is your opinion based on your preferred playstyle. Soldier’s is wrong for you, but not for everybody else.

And “defensive” works for many, but by your logic, “defensive” should also do damage. I can’t really relate. If you were the actual Guardian, would you relinquish wearing your plate because you a re confident that you’ll never get hit? You will certainly wield more your weapon than being hit, but the armor is there to provide protection, even if you are skilled enough that you rarely get hit-accidents do happen, and you better be prepared then.

Many “one-shots” are only one-shots because of the player lacking defense. Some are true one-shots, but of course you will be one-shotted if you have poor defense against the strongest attacks, and got hit.

While it’s possible to never get hit, I doubt more than 50% of the playerbase never gets hit. No reflection on them, it’s just weird that people ask others to play a high risk/high reward playstyle as if they could all handle it with the same finesse. This is why many players go down on Berserker’s gear: not because they are “baddies”, or because Berserker’s gear is “bad”, but because it’s a playstyle you must either enjoy outright or master with practice. Some people really don’t enjoy high risk/high reward gameplay, and why should we force them to do so?

In other words, “Soldier’s is always bad for PvE” is an extreme oversimplification of the facts based on effective power and math spreadsheets, but has little to do with the actual human element who may or not do justice to those big numbers you so love. Some people simply thrive on alternate gear, whether you like it or not, and whatever calculations may “prove” your direct damage coefficients.

What is “always bad” for PvE is using a gear to which you have no affinity towards. Berserker gear may actually be the wrong tool for many players, and we should accept for that to be OK, rather than labeling them as “noobs” or “baddies.”

Star Ace.5207:

Seetoo.9316:

How do defensive stats help other people in your group, when you don’t always get hit?
Case 1: not taking the hit
Dodging invalidates any defensive stat you have. There’s no damage to mitigate using vit/toughness or damage to heal back with healing power when you don’t get hit. The only way anyone is FULLY utilizing their defensive stats is if they ALWAYS take damage.

Case 2: taking the hit
The only case of actually utilizing your defensive stats is when you take a hit (unless you count conversion traits). If that hit 1 shots you with the defensive stats, you may as well be naked (no vit no toughness). If the dps you take is greater than your hps, you will go down. Going defensive comes with the assumption of using those defenses (meaning you won’t be dodging,blocking, going invul as often as possible). No boss dies from not killing you (I haven’t done arah so maybe?). No boss dies because you mitigated x amount of damage. Note this is not about speed clears.

So bottom line:
How do defensive stats that you DON’T ALWAYS USE benefit the group equally or more than offensive stats you ALWAYS USE?

I’ve been trying to make “defensive” work, but the only thing that “works” with getting hit is retaliation. Ever finished a dungeon using just retal?

Ask ANet, once more, why are those stats available.

this is actually funny, ask anet? really? do you think anet intended gw1 to end up being run by a/x builds? absolutely not but thats what happened regardless of what they wanted because thats what the players wanted

I’m not asking Anet (they already gave their answer). It’s not about preference or “fit”. By Anets own design defensive stats are “bad” (for lack of a better word) “You are not supposed to be able to tank anything” (no trinity). Name a dungeon where completing it required you to survive for x sec (molten facility comes to mind – but then the traps wouldn’t stop if you didn’t do damage to the core). Name a dungeon where completing it required healing something (none comes to mind). Name a dungeon where completing it required dealing damage (all of them?).

I’m asking you (since you are so sure about your stance on this matter). All your examples are for when defensive stats DO perform their job (mitigate damage), something that DOESN’T ALWAYS HAPPEN.

Defensive stats ONLY work when you get hit. Getting hit is ALWAYS “bad” (for lack of a better word). This translates to "Defensive stats ONLY work when you are “bad” (for lack of a better word).

This isn’t opinion. Toughness and vit literally doesn’t contribute anything when you aren’t taking hits. Healing power does nothing when your health if full. Again, the exception would be stat conversion (toughness -> power, vit -> condition damage, etc).

I’ve never taken the armor for the armor. I take the armor because that’s where my stats come from. I’ll say it again, defensive works for taking hits". You have neither refuted this nor given counter example. I’ll assume you agree.

“You can’t always avoid damage” -> “You can’t always take the hit”. You admit that it’s possible to never get hit and stay alive. Is it possible to always get hit and stay alive?

“Soldiers is always bad for PVE”. Base on my argument that VT in that PVT only works when you take hits, and that taking hits is “bad” (for lack of a better word), it holds true. Refute it by saying taking a hit is good.

Completing ANY dungeon requires you do damage to something. In PVT only 1/3 of your stats is helping you complete the dungeon.

Until Anet actually produces PVE content where keeping something alive (and not doing any damage)is the objective, then mitigation will always be inferior.

Examples:
- a dungeon with constant damage (you can’t OOC)
- survive for x secs vs an invulnerable boss
- protect this npc (npc death means failure)

Seetoo.9316:

I’m not asking Anet (they already gave their answer). (When? I missed it!) It’s not about preference or “fit”. (Did they say that?) By Anets own design defensive stats are “bad” (for lack of a better word) (Did they say that?) “You are not supposed to be able to tank anything” (no trinity). (How does it logically follow that defensive stats are thus useless?) Name a dungeon where completing it required you to survive for x sec (molten facility comes to mind – but then the traps wouldn’t stop if you didn’t do damage to the core). (Name a Dungeon where dying is a good thing-can’t follow what you are trying to say.) (Name a dungeon where completing it required healing something (none comes to mind). (Name a Dungeon where Healing kills you/is bad for you/hampers progression through the Dungeon.) Name a dungeon where completing it required dealing damage (all of them?). (How couldn’t there be a Dungeon in which no damage is dealt? A jumping puzzle Dungeon? Even many of those have battles, in which damamge is eventually dealt. Still, can’t f ollow your logic, because that doesn’t mean that defensive stats are useless.)

I’m asking you (since you are so sure about your stance on this matter). All your examples are for when defensive stats DO perform their job (mitigate damage), something that DOESN’T ALWAYS HAPPEN. (Why the heck would you want to be hit all the time? Defensive stats are not there to damage, and retalitation isn’t meant to used as a sole source of damage.)

Defensive stats ONLY work when you get hit. Getting hit is ALWAYS “bad” (for lack of a better word). This translates to "Defensive stats ONLY work when you are “bad” (for lack of a better word). (I don’t mean to sound rude/offensive, but this makes you sound irrational. Getting hit is always bad (loss of health causes deaths), but it doesn’t mean that you are bad by getting hit, and need defensive stats as a “cushion” you are just twisting grammar to prove your point.)

This isn’t opinion. (It’s your opinion and playstyle, all of it. Not true for all players.)Toughness and vit literally doesn’t contribute anything when you aren’t taking hits (which you will take). Healing power does nothing when your health if full. (But it won’t always be.) Again, the exception would be stat conversion (toughness -> power, vit -> condition damage, etc).

I’ve never taken the armor for the armor. I take the armor because that’s where my stats come from. I’ll say it again, defensive works for taking hits". You have neither refuted this nor given counter example. I’ll assume you agree.

“You can’t always avoid damage” -> “You can’t always take the hit”. You admit that it’s possible to never get hit and stay alive. Is it possible to always get hit and stay alive? (In some builds, it is possible with the exception of the one-shotters-Guardians are pretty ridiculously good survivors in this aspect.)

“Soldiers is always bad for PVE”. Base on my argument that VT in that PVT only works when you take hits, and that taking hits is “bad” (for lack of a better word), it holds true. Refute it by saying taking a hit is good. (Darn this is not logical, sir! What can I say?)

Completing ANY dungeon requires you do damage to something. In PVT only 1/3 of your stats is helping you complete the dungeon.

Until Anet actually produces PVE content where keeping something alive (and not doing any damage) then mitigation will always be inferior.

Examples:
- a dungeon with constant damage (you can’t OOC)
- survive for x secs vs an invulnerable boss
- protect this npc (npc death means failure)

Your logic is that since defense doesn’t do damage (really?!!!), it’s useless! So I have nothing else to add.

In your world:

-No trinity, only damage matters. That’s just a myth based on people too used to the old trinity.

-Therefore, if your armor doesn’t attack (wow!), it’s useless

-You are bad if you ever get hit, because getting hit is bad. (O.o)

-You are not supposed to get hit, because getting hit is bad; if you are good you won’t ever get hit and thus will never need healing power.

Cont.

Only thing I can say is that there are better arguments pro-DPS than the above. For instance you could say that Berserker’s is more efficient damage-wise than any other combo, though you give away all your survivability so you can’t make mistakes. You could say that it kills the enemies faster, so you won’t need to last as long (that’s why Berserker’s players work better together; a lone Berserker usually has a harder time.) And that since the point is killing faster, Vitality/Toughness “slows you down.” Those are valid arguments, but yours aren’t, with all due respect.

My argument is: high risk/high reward is not a playstyle that suits 100% of the playerbase, so it shouldn’t be used as the standard to strive towards. People are not “bad players” for not using Berserker’s, nor are they leeches, selfish, or any other unfair, ill-placed pejorative that you may think of. They are just choosing to play in a way that may suit them. Soldier’s gear is also not only for WvW, or “training wheels” for the ultimate “Zerk” gear. Berserker’s gear is a VALID choice, but so are other playstyles as well, and not everybody is supposed to enjoy the game the way you do.

Really, stop criticizing people you disagree with regarding playstyle, and just have fun with like-minded fellows. I can’t agree with any of your points at all. No need to call other “noobs” or “bad” because they get hit, because in your world, no one ever should get hit and you should do max damage. It’s OK for others to not choose to play the way you do, and if it bothers you, just don’t play with them, but there’s no need to put them down as if you were superior, because YOU AREN’T.

ANet didn’t design the game with max DPS in mind-that’s how you interpret the game. It’s true, they should do more so that direct damage doesn’t appear to be the easiest solution for most Dungeons, but a lacking trinity is no excuse to eschew playstyles that aren’t only DPS-based.

Bhima.9518:

Also… I think 2 of the best balanced rune choices for the Guardian: 2xsuperior Monk, 2xSuperior Water 2x major Wate for boon duration is very useful to you and those around you. The other is pure soldier runes but they are only good if you run shouts.

A *very skilled Guardian in my guild runs this setup – never heard of mix-and-matching incomplete and mismatched Sup/Major sets of runes like this before he told me about it, but upon reflection, it makes a LOT of sense for the added boon duration. As he puts it:

“You get bigger boosts running full sets, but they’re not the best boosts you can have for especially group play, plus this works OK even when running solo”. Genius!

Star Ace.5207:

Your logic is that since defense doesn’t do damage (really?!!!), it’s useless! So I have nothing else to add.

In your world:

-No trinity, only damage matters. That’s just a myth based on people too used to the old trinity.

-Therefore, if your armor doesn’t attack (wow!), it’s useless

-You are bad if you ever get hit, because getting hit is bad. (O.o)

-You are not supposed to get hit, because getting hit is bad; if you are good you won’t ever get hit and thus will never need healing power.

Is it really my point? My point was defense is bad because you active try “not to use” it. Toughness and vit only do their jobs when you take a hit (something you don’t always do). Healing only does it’s job when you are missing HP (something that isn’t always happening).

So, let me make it very specific. How do toughness and vit help everyone else in the group when you aren’t taking hits (something that is completely possible)? How is healing power helping everyone else in the group when no one is missing HP (something that is completely possible)?

See the questions? There’s nothing there about doing damage. It’s about not using the stats you invested in. Now let’s flip it for damage.

Offense is good because you actively “try to use” it. Pow, prec only do their jobs when you deal damage (something you always try to do). Crit damage only does its job when you crit (something you always want to happen). You always want prec and crit damage to do their jobs, but you don’t control when that happens (outside of sigil of int and sure crit traits).

So, let me make it very specific. How do prec and crit damage help everyone else in the group when you aren’t critting (something that is completely possible)? How does power help everyone else in the group when you aren’t connecting hits (something that is completely possible)?

My questions apply to zerk as well. These questions are about not using the stats you invested in.

The huge difference in favor of zerk over pvt is that you actively try to do damage (use offensive stats) while you actively try to avoid damage (not use your defensive stats).

So unless content comes up where the goal is to take damage (and not deal damage), defense will be inferior because you actively try NOT to use it.

Cont. (to match your post)
Except you didn’t actually get my point (since you thought my point was “defense doesn’t do damage (really?!!!), it’s useless”) My point was you actively try not to use the stats you invest in when you go defensive (who does pve content with the goal of taking damage?)

So, your argument is preference (binary: like or dislike). Mine is getting use out of your stat investment (pretty binary too: yes or no → are you dealing damage? are you taking damage?)

And here comes the “fun” argument. If the goal is to have fun with like minded players, why is this even an issue since you will NEVER aim to group with zerk minded players?

Anet didn’t design this game with max dps in mind. They designed it with dps in mind. How to tell? Every objective involves dealing damage to something.

I remember a guild mission where you go to south sun and “keep a crab alive” or something. It would have been great since the goal was to keep something alive rather than kill something. But because the would be “crab killers” weren’t invulnerable, it was better to just kill them than tank/kite them.

I think I see what you’re getting at, Seetoo about wanting to avoid damage… but I’m not sure I agree. Sometimes, based on play style, a person may want to just absorb incoming damage than actively try to avoid it. You asked:

• “How do toughness and vit help everyone else in the group when you aren’t taking hits (something that is completely possible)? How is healing power helping everyone else in the group when no one is missing HP (something that is completely possible)?” *

It helps (it seems to me) because if the Guardian is able to absorb a hit, they can do SOMETHING ELSE (apply a boon… drop a symbol… attack/set stuff on fire… etc.) instead of worrying about dodging/blinding/invoking a shout/whatever to avoid taking the hit.

By the same token, sending out constant heals only helps when folks in your party are down on HP, I agree, but when people miss dodges/step accidentally into a red circle/run out of End and get smacked with a huge hit/whatever, then it REALLY MATTERS ALL OF A SUDDEN I find… having it constantly available without necessarily having to worry about it, just like having Tough/Vit, allows the Guardian to do other things, like, say, hit things in the face.

I agree offensive stats are the best stats in the current PvE meta (Anet, please make dungeons harder for speedrunners, please!), and if you’re running CoFp1 nonstop 4~5 hrs a day like a second job, occasionally seeing a pug in PVT armor probably annoys the heck out of you.

However, defensive stats can actually contribute to DPS too if you’re doing it right. For example, in HotWp1 last week I was paired up with a zerker guardian who had to dodge out of combat EVERY SINGLE TIME the butcher did his whirly thing while I facetanked like a boss. The DPS he lost by constantly dodging and breaking his attack train meant I did more sustained DPS than him and therefore was able to hold aggro 95% of the time. This in turn anchored the boss to the center of the room while everyone else attacked pillars or pew pewed from afar. For the party, that ended up being a faster battle than if everyone just kited him around every which way.

Or back when molten facility was a thing, I tanked both of the end bosses (well, sequentially not altogether), rendering them completely immobile so people in my party were wondering if we ran into a bug.

But I admit tanks are totally useless in CoFp1, where bosses hit like a wet noodle and mobs are simply avoided.

Ok i made a post explaining the reason we have this variety of stats in the game in the dungeon forum section. In short the reason we have so many stats is for pvp and wvw. And the reason no gear has all defensive stats (they all have atleast power or condition damage) is because anet intended there to be no tanking or healing. They are just stats to suppliment certain builds (mainly for pvp and wvw). The meta is to do damage and defense stats are a waste. Just because you dont like it, it doesnt mean its leeching. You are slowing the group down when you dont need to. I dont know how you cant see that as selfish?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Healing-Builds/page/2

The problem is people are thinking of support and control roles as something you have to build your class around completely.

The reason we have all these weird stat combos is too make certain parts of certain builds more effective. But if you look at every single stat combo it either has power or condition damage on it. This suggests that Anet always intended everyone to be dps but some people to be dps with support and/or control. The more defensive gear is just for less experienced people who are learning mechanics or for select situations or WvW.

Anet said every class can play every role. Every class has a self heal and cc and damage mitigation which they can access without building completely around it. And that suggests to me that the meta was always meant to be full dps if your skilled enough, but take some utility for certain encounters. I do want them to make different and more specialised dps builds become more viable though.

Wow this thread unearthed some raw emotion

I’m sorry. I never kick people for their gear or skill choices, but I have to agree that taking Magic Find on your gear is inherently a selfish gesture. Absolutely nothing about that choice contributes, in any fashion, anything to the party. Whether by your reduced damage or reduced ability to keep yourself on your feet, or et cetera, you are taking a dent out of the party for something that only benefits the loot that you get. You and nobody else.

Now, I do not subscribe to the idea that non-Zerker gear is selfish. People don’t take SOldier’s gear with the idea that it’s ineffective. They take it because they feel it’s better for their build and, for all I know, they might be right. I play a pretty mean Guardian, but I know next to nothing about, say, Elementalists and have seen that the forums tend to know next to nothing about the things they bray on about and are incredibly reactionary people.

But… yeah, Magic Find is totally selfish and is absolutely the reason why they’re removing the stat from gear, because it’s the only stat that, in no way shape or form, contributes to a party’s overall success.

Spoj:

I respect your right to your own opinion, however:

-Nowhere ANet said these things about DPS being for PvE, and the other stat combos being for WvW and PvP

-PvP has way less stat options than PvE

-No roles doesn’t mean players must solely focus on DPS (this has always confused me, because I can’t relate to the logic “if there’s no trinity, all Professions must do DPS!”… it really is a logical stretch to believe that.)

-Contradicted by the many players who do great with alternate equipment (you can ALWAYS say “but they are not doing it like I do, more fficiently, etc.” but basically you are stroking your ego by telling them they are doing it wrong by not doing it your way. Math fails, because every player must adapt his/her playstyle to the numbers, so even if something is “proven” to be better, unless it’s better for the individual player, math is ultimately a loose guide to what MAY work for someone.

-Where has ever been oficcially stated that non-full- DPS gear is training wheels? Indeed, if you are to master high risk/high reward playstyle, you better practice with the real thing ASAP, rather than with a playstle that is at times very opposite.

-IME, high risk/high reward works better in organized play. It can work solo, I am sure, but it becomes much harder if you want to solo certain Champions, and a Berserker’s player may indeed be easily overwhelmed by unfair odds. This proves that defensive stats are not really useless at all on PvE, BTW. Surviving a mob attack from 5+ critters is hard for defensive stat players, and even though Berserker’s are able to kill them faster, the thing is that they are not well-equipped to deal with “impossible odds”

-GW2 is NOT a speedrun. Speedclear runs is an specific playstyle that 100% of the playerbase don’t engage in. It logically follows that we cannot offer playstyle rules as facts for everybody if not everybody plays the way speed-runners play. (Please don’t say that avoiding speedrunning is selfish… that will be the ultimate trolling thing to say.)

-Not everybody even likes Fractals, and as stated in the forums, some people actually play with alternate equipment for so-called “high level” play.

-Tanking is not viable, as in drawing agro, and there are NO healer roles, as stated by ANet, but what you said, they didn’t ever state (that therefore there’s no point in defensive stats for PvE, and that Healing Power is thus useless.) HIgh defensive builds may have absurd survivability, and it has nothing to do with the player not knowing how to dodge (which is another bad assumption about “tanky” gear.) Healing Power is ridiculously effective in many builds, not as “party healers” per se, but as damage-over-time-mitigators. Full party regens are vastly underrated, and not all professions can cleanse conditions easily (or they can, but sometimes must sacrifice offense or other utility in order to do so.) Regen and small party heals may be helpful to counter annoying encounter mechanics in which conditions are almost constantly dished out. Plus I have seen how nice small heals by other party members can help a more DPS orientated character stay for longer times in dangerous melee situations.

-In short, what you say is not what ANet intended for PvE Dungeon play, but what you firmly believe that ANet intended, which I disagree with, and that’s fine, because both of us are allowed to have our own opinions. What I don’t like is when people state their opinions as universal facts, just because they work very well for them.

To be fair, as a Guardian I rarely use those high heal builds that are fun to play, but a bit slow. The survivability is incredible. But I also don’t go full-DPS, because it’s not something I enjoy, and actually like the Honor line very much, more than any other line, actually (as nice as AH is, I very rarely use it at all.) I try to achieve a balance while keeping true to some RPG elements for each of my characters, and every gear choice I make has to be justified for a role playing reason in my mind. I don’t see my Guardian as a Berserker Soldier/Warrior (though of course a Guardian can be a Berserker in spirit.) She’s not that type of character. She does often wield some Berserker’s weapons, but not a full Berserker’s build. None of my 4 armor sets are “full-zerk”. And to be honest, it’s fine by me-she does really well on any content, basically because a)I am not most people (I am myself, not a mob), b)I do not speedrun (I do, but not often, and never with an attitude), and c) my playstyle is far-removed from what the full-DPS “meta” is, even though I do try to have as high damage possible without neglecting my own survivability.

Don’t feel offended, it’s OK for you to believe whatever, but I really don’t think that ANet “intended” your favorite stat set to be the only option for Dungeons. It’s just your opinion, how you interpret your facts, but not what applies to everybody else-and lack of trinity proves nothing a far as DPS is concerned, because all classes are able to play multiple roles in one-not JUST DPS.

I am going to give you that if you want to speedrun as crazy fast as possible, even normal Dungeons, the focus should be on the offense. But do you honestly believe that all Dungeon players must play that way?

If you think that non-zerk gear players are selfish, you really are discriminating against people and judging their character on stupid criteria. (It would be like me being critical of types of music I don’t enjoy, and telling them that “my music” is the one they should listen to, otherwise people are polluting the air and being “selfish” by doing so and letting me hear their “garbage.”) What you should do is state that on your LFGs that you only play with zerk gear players, so that you don’t even have to think about labeling people who disagree with your playstyle as being selfish. There’s ZERO reason for calling player’s names or judging them just because they view and play the game differently-I find such a thing the more selfish and offensive act.

(And as I have said so many times, gear is amoral-players can be altruistic or selfish regardless gear.)

Well said Ace.

Star Ace.5207:

It would be like me being critical of types of music I don’t enjoy, and telling them that “my music” is the one they should listen to, otherwise people are polluting the air and being “selfish” by doing so and letting me hear their “garbage.”

I’ld like to point out that listening to music does not have a group oriented goal. Gearing does (in this case dungeons).

The ingame equivalent to your analogy would be looking at your stats to feel good about yourself or looking at your skin combinations and saying “I make this look good.”

If you want a music example to fit the game, try choosing music for your walking / jogging work out. Music has a subconscious effect to the pace at which you walk / jog. Place that in a group setting with the goal of finishing at a moderate pace. Even if nobody can hear everyone else’s music, the group can only go as fast as the slowest person in the group.

Moderate pace jogger: Why did you choose a slow song.
Slow pace jogger: I like this song.

Seetoo.9316:

Star Ace.5207:

It would be like me being critical of types of music I don’t enjoy, and telling them that “my music” is the one they should listen to, otherwise people are polluting the air and being “selfish” by doing so and letting me hear their “garbage.”

I’ld like to point out that listening to music does not have a group oriented goal. Gearing does (in this case dungeons).

The ingame equivalent to your analogy would be looking at your stats to feel good about yourself or looking at your skin combinations and saying “I make this look good.”

If you want a music example to fit the game, try choosing music for your walking / jogging work out. Music has a subconscious effect to the pace at which you walk / jog. Place that in a group setting with the goal of finishing at a moderate pace. Even if nobody can hear everyone else’s music, the group can only go as fast as the slowest person in the group.

Moderate pace jogger: Why did you choose a slow song.
Slow pace jogger: I like this song.

As I said, sometimes people choose to play their music whenever out there, just not over headphones, so it does affect “the group” of people listening to what they rather not listen to (at times) I have no right to tell them to shut off their devices if I am not in a “silence” zone, where even my own music would be wrong to be played out audibly. I deliberately chose my words to make that clear.

(In fact, there’s even less reason to complain in this game, since you don’t really have to play the game with people who think and play differently than you do, whereas in real-life, you are often forced to be placed in uncomfortable situations.)

There’s nothing wrong with wanting stats that “feel good” in your character, BTW. Not everyone plays the game as a mathematical equation, and that’s fine-why should they, if they are not geared that way? Has nothing to do with silly words such as “selfishness” or “being terrible.”

While zerker is the best, I don’t hate on anyone for taking anything that they think is best for their build. MF, on the other hand, is not a build choice. It’s a loot gain choice at the expense of the other party members. In no way does MF enhance any build in the game in any situation at all. At least with PVT you can be deluded into thinking you are tanking or it might occasionally save you if you fail to dodge or whatever.

MF = kick the selfish kitten .
PVT = sigh, what a waste.
Zerk = yay, gj.
Clerics = meh, just hope he’s the only one.

You know what the best part is …

Even if someone was wearing PVT gear in a dungeon vs. something else, you wouldn’t even notice it. So much for the macho elitism. Everyone can put away their “I’m a great Zerker Guardian” posturing now.

Obtena.7952:

You know what the best part is …

Even if someone was wearing PVT gear in a dungeon vs. something else, you wouldn’t even notice it. So much for the macho elitism.

+1
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Obtena.7952:

You know what the best part is …

Even if someone was wearing PVT gear in a dungeon, you wouldn’t even notice it so all the hate is simply misdirected gear-machismo. Everyone can put away their “I’m a great Zerker Guardian” posturing now.

It’s also about ego, sadly. "I am not a terrible player, thus I use ultimate gear, “Zerk”, unlike all those noobs running around in Soldier’s junk!"

If you know you are good, you don’t need to denigrate others to prove your point.

Plus I will never agree that gear will ever determine anyone’s skill.

There are so many reasons why healing power and other defensive stats are useless in pve but I wont bother going into that. If you want to play with a selfish build, thats fine by me. Just think about how you could be doing alot more for your group and making it a much more enjoyable experience if things go faster/smoother.

Someone mentioned you dont notice people running PVT. You really do even if its just 1 out of 5 players. We had a pvt pug guardian in a 30 frac a month ago, the difficulty went way up simply because the group dps was so lacking. And thats another point id like to mention. Tanky gear and damage mitigation might seem good at keeping you alive but in practise it doesnt keep you alive from most attacks and from prolonged fights. Taking those stats reduces your dps which makes the fights last longer. I couldnt count the amount of times ive seen pug groups wipe simply because there was no dps. You slow the fight down way more than you boost your individual survivability, which ends up causing more problems than solving.

Im not trying to stroke my ego. I want to help players, and for players to become better at dungeons they need to realise the best way to do them. Which is dps…. Ive helped loads of people in my guild and theyve come to realise the truth and thanked me for it.

I’m starting to feel myself get older. I can’t twitch like I used to, the nervous system simply ages.

The “zerker or kick” emphasis that has a strangle-hold on dungeons in GW2 has me avoiding dungeon groups and waiting on the next MMO. Without some toughness and vitality I pancake in a dungeon.

I wasn’t aware my getting older was selfish.

It’s okay that dungeons in GW2 have an emphasis on twitch, not every game has to be for everybody. There’s plenty in GW2 to hold me until the next thing. I’m enjoying the new arena content.

spoj.9672:

Im not trying to stroke my ego. I want to help players, and for players to become better at dungeons they need to realise the best way to do them. Which is dps…. (your way of doing things, which works for you.) Ive helped loads of people in my guild and theyve come to realise the truth and thanked me for it.

Your truth is not universal, because we are individuals, and not supposed to think and play the same way. Therefore your hints will apply to many in your Guild, but not every player, and you have to come to terms with the idea that people are not any less than you (or “selfish”) for not playing the “effective” way you do.

spoj.9672:

There are so many reasons why healing power and other defensive stats are useless in pve but I wont bother going into that. If you want to play with a selfish build, thats fine by me. Just think about how you could be doing alot more for your group and making it a much more enjoyable experience if things go faster/smoother.

You’re just failing to recognize the impact that a player’s skill has on how successful they are, irregardless of what gear they use. Maybe you view anything not zerker as ‘selfish’ builds, some people NEED those ‘selfish’ builds to help their team as much as their skill allows. They aren’t helping anyone being dead. Throw a noob in a zerker build and that’s what you get … dead. There is nothing fast or smooth about trying to revive the guy that believes in the crap about ‘Zerker is best’ and hasn’t got enough knowledge or experience to stay alive in it.

spoj.9672:

Someone mentioned you dont notice people running PVT. You really do even if its just 1 out of 5 players. We had a pvt pug guardian in a 30 frac a month ago, the difficulty went way up simply because the group dps was so lacking.

That someone was me and no you really don’t because the players skill has such a significant factor on their damage that you can’t possibly single out their gear as the reason you might be having a hard go at some content. Your singular experience does NOT give you enough experience to conclude how that PVT Guardian performed in that team vs. a zerker one … there simply isn’t a way t separate the impact on performance between gear and player skill. For all you know, if he was zerker, you might have done worse because a Dead Guardian does no damage at all. It’s NOT just about your gear.

spoj.9672:

Im not trying to stroke my ego. I want to help players, and for players to become better at dungeons they need to realise the best way to do them.

Unfortunately, you aren’t helping players with your approach because not every player is as capable as the ones that are soloing dungeons and single handedly making a noticeable impact on their teams damage in Zerker gear. The genuinely best advice here is that people need to determine what gear load works for them. Telling people they are selfish because they aren’t ready or capable to run full zerker isn’t helpful … it’s being a jerk.

For personal survival in a group
You take defensive stats because you know that YOU can’t dodge the really painful hits (hits that take a huge chunk of total hp) or you don’t walk out of red rings. That’s why you chose defensive stats right?

“I know for a fact, that I can’t dodge this particular hit so I’ll gear to be able to mitigate it instead”

Isn’t that what defines a bad player? You know which hits really hurt, but you don’t plan your dodges around that information and instead “gear for it” and mitigate (since you can’t “gear for dodges”).

PVE content has patterns and tells. Suppose you already learned the dungeon, so much so that you never get hit (ever). Would staying in defensive gear to maintain your preference be selfish or not?

For group survival
Say you take healing power to help keep the group up. That right there means the group is bad enough to NEED you to heal them. Your preference assumes that the group is bad. So instead of elitist, your preference just made you an kitten.

Because we have dodge, defensive stats are designed around bad play (defined as taking the hits as opposed to not taking the hits). So long as dodging is an ability available to ALL builds of ANY class, defensive stats will be inferior.

Think about it. Remove dodge. Suddenly its reversed because the dead do no damage.

The game is easy. Any player, even the most uncoordinated can be perfectly fine in zerker. Soloing lupi, maybe not. But doing a dungeon as a group, yes.

Anyway even a bad player with zerker gear is more useful than a bad player in PVT. With the zerker gear they can do much better dps to trash groups which dont require anything but auto attacking or pressing buttons. Id take a zerker player who downed every half a minute over a pvt player anyday. Because even downed they are doing more damage than PVT.

I wonder how many people managed to complete candidate trials t4 solo with clerics or pvt. Probably not many.

Also +1 to Seetoo.

Y’all should just do what I do. Carry a Berserker set in your inventory and ping it when someone asks you to. They never know the difference, and I get to feel sneaky; which is the best feeling in the world.

Seeto and Spoj, read Obtena’s words:

“The genuinely best advice here is that people need to determine what gear load works for them. Telling people they are selfish because they aren’t ready or capable to run full zerker isn’t helpful … it’s being a jerk.”

It’s OK for people not to run other stuff that isn’t cookie-cutter. It’s not selfish for them to do so. And it’s also not bad for you to choose Berserker’s gear.

Don’t play with Soldier’s gear people-your problem/hate for it is solved. Insulting others as selfish for playing/seeing the game differently does nothing for you or them, you see?

Star Ace.5207:

Seeto and Spoj, read Obtena’s words:

“The genuinely best advice here is that people need to determine what gear load works for them. Telling people they are selfish because they aren’t ready or capable to run full zerker isn’t helpful … it’s being a jerk.”

It’s OK for people not to run other stuff that isn’t cookie-cutter. It’s not selfish for them to do so. And it’s also not bad for you to choose Berserker’s gear.

Don’t play with Soldier’s gear people-your problem/hate for it is solved.

I guess i should just let you blindly walk into a wall repeatedly then.

When you see people strugging with stuff you dont just let them carry on being ignorant and strugging on. You help if you can. Obviously people have a problem with sound advice in this game because it goes against a quote the devs should never have used. “Play how you want to”, they should of added “and dont give a toss about anyone else in your group”.

spoj.9672:

Star Ace.5207:

Seeto and Spoj, read Obtena’s words:

“The genuinely best advice here is that people need to determine what gear load works for them. Telling people they are selfish because they aren’t ready or capable to run full zerker isn’t helpful … it’s being a jerk.”

It’s OK for people not to run other stuff that isn’t cookie-cutter. It’s not selfish for them to do so. And it’s also not bad for you to choose Berserker’s gear.

Don’t play with Soldier’s gear people-your problem/hate for it is solved.

I guess i should just let you blindly walk into a wall repeatedly then.

When you see people strugging with stuff you dont just let them carry on being ignorant and strugging on. You help if you can. Obviously people have a problem with sound advice in this game because it goes against a quote the devs should never have used. “Play how you want to”, they should of added “and dont give a toss about anyone else in your group”.

I care about my groups, just not the way you do. The irony is that I usually care the most for my group, at least more than the usual norm. Wants each of them to do great together with whatever works for them. You can ask people who know me in-game whether I care for them or if I am “selfish.” I always have the positive mentality: “let’s make this work!” and go for it, having fun.

Incidentally, I am my own, hard critic too, so I don’t need someone to tell me “I am a baddie” for not going meta. I always look for ways/gear/builds that may suit me to improve whatever I want to do for myself and my groups.

In short, “Berserker’s or death!” applies mostly to speedruns. There are others great ways to enjoy the game too.

If zerker speed clears is what works best for you then I think by all means you should maximize that by gearing appropriately and playing with people who know the fights.

I personally don’t really care what armor people use, tbh. I certainly wouldn’t pug and then make people ping their armor, but if people specify what they’re looking for on lfg beforehand that’s their business. I personally think it’s really rude to call people selfish or ignorant because they aren’t gearing their character the way you think they should. But again, I avoid those ‘LF zerk guard/mes for CoF Farm PING GEAR’ groups like the plague. It’s a very dull style of play imo.

but yeah – for speed clears go zerk if you know the fights. otherwise knights / zerk trinks is a safe bet for most everything else.

So many walls of text… Answer is simple- Overall Zerker.

Full Soldier Armour + Berserk’s Trinkets is an around 16% dps loss. Is it that important? Wrong build or bad play style could have much bigger impact.

However, after I’ve read in this thread that celectial > soldier i am not surprised. In most situations soldier means more damage & more defence than celestial.
All this perfectionist just don’t know how the damage is calculated:)

But that’s exactly what selfish means. To not care for the greater good of the group because your own preference takes higher priority. It’s an adjective used to describe exactly the situation you are saying “prioritizing YOUR interests as a single player 1st than as a group member”
self·ish [sel-fish] Show IPA
adjective
1.
devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one’s own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others.

I could use the other words
Synonyms
1. self-interested, self-seeking, egoistic; illiberal, parsimonious, stingy.
but they all mean the same thing and they will still insult you and people like you.

Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/selfish?s=t

It’s calling a black (adjective) pot (noun in question) black.

I’m calling a player(noun in question) who prioritizes himself over the group(definition of an adjective) “selfish”(adjective).

It has been proven beyond a shred of doubt that studying science, technology, engineering, and mathematics…the STEM fields… have the best prospects for future employability and lifetime earning potential. For society as a whole, the STEM disciplines contributes the most to human progress.

Therefore, the STEM professions should be the only professions allowed in human society. Sure, plumbers, teachers, social workers and baseball players still find ways to contribute, but they don’t contribute as much as they could have had they chosen a STEM profession! It is so obvious I don’t understand why people can’t see it.

So obviously, anyone who isn’t in a STEM profession is consciously choosing to be selfish and leeching off of society. It is precisely because so many pugs/noobs/kids choose non-STEM professions that humanity has not advanced as quickly as it should have.

What’s worse, these selfish leeches use up precious resources that could be more efficiently allocated to STEM research. Teachers? Leeches. Firemen? Selfish. MMO gamers? Lazy kittens who contribute nothing. When I rule the world, the first thing I’m gonna do is to kill…er…kick all non-STEM members out of society. Only then can a perfect world exist.

@Setoo
Which would be absolutely correct if there is only one way to maximize and measure performance.

Suprise, time to take down a boss isnt the only way to measure performance.

@The rest
As long as we (us players that have mostly, or exclusively, berserker gear) insist on putting 20-30 points in honor in our dps builds i genuinely think we should just shut our trap regarding performance and being selfish.

And as Scaramuccia says, the difference in dps is marginal given you use the same build. As been mentioned above, playstyle have more impact than the gear.

For instance i have:
80% crit chance
2400 power damage (3500 attack)
89% crit damage
50% multiplicative damage enhancers
55% boon duration

And only use 4 pieces of berserkers.

Would you kick me for being selfish?

Does one automatically become a STEM employee after birth? – teacher
Can a STEM employee be productive after he’s been cripple/killed by fire? Can a STEM employee be productive after his tools are burned to ash? – firemen
Can a STEM employee remain productive after he’s been burned out by doing nothing but work? – games

These nonSTEM professions support STEM professions not because they want to be support but because STEM professions NEED the support. You can’t stand on something without something to stand on. How exactly do you think the food on your plate gets there? How do you even have a plate to begin with?

UNLIKE in this case (group PVE content), players DON’T NEED OTHER PLAYERS to support them since Anet gave every class the ability to dps, cc, and heal.

“I screwed up and got hit big”
“I’ll heal myself and simply not get hit the next time a big hit is ANNOUNCED”

@Seetoo:
Do you NEED to play an MMO? So why aren’t you spending 100% of your time studying to become a scientist, engineer, doctor, or mathematician?

Horribly selfish of you.

Sometimes I’m looking away for a sec and miss the “announcement” . Until I bloom into a near-perfect player, I’ll continue to run knight’s armor+rubies/‘zerker weps/knight’s trinkets+rubies. This set-up gives me just enough defense to make a blunder now and again while still pumping out big-ish numbers and providing protection to my mates.

Cuz I would die if I worked 24/7. You see 100% of my time includes sleeping/resting, eating, bathing, bathroom breaks for 1 and 2, moving (getting from where I work to where I sleep), recreation (that thing you do so you don’t burn out and become unable to perform your work efficiently) etc.

As for games specifically, they are therapeutic. Society has only just begun to discover the productive effects of games because they have been labeled for a long time as useless.

Shooters have produced more skilled surgeons due to the increase in their hand-eye coordination.
Games with fast moving objects (MMO’s come to mind) have been discovered to help improve eye disorders
Games specifically catered to address fears have helped cure those fears (Make a game specifically to slowly introduce an arachnophob to spiders).

Simulations (you know, that thing STEM people use to not waste resources testing theories out) is this big and important sounding word for games.

I wanna build this device to end world <insert problem>, but it could blow up the earth.
a) let’s build it anyway because it is the product of our fine STEM minds
b) simulate it

But then again, you obviously didn’t know since you had to even ask the question.

Amazing what you sound like for applying a game (that doesn’t simulate real life) discussion to real life. The amount of kitten is too kitten high.

If you wanna pursue this then you’re on your own. I’m going back to topic.

Amins.3710:

Obtena.7952:

You know what the best part is …

Even if someone was wearing PVT gear in a dungeon vs. something else, you wouldn’t even notice it. So much for the macho elitism.

+1
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Actually it’s painfully easy to notice, so long as there’s a moment where he’s the only one attacking a given mob.

A zerker Warrior in AC can solo down a mob or graveling mound very very fast. A guy in Soldier gear takes much longer as he’s neither getting many crits, nor are his crits are doing much damage.

I just as often run a support Guardian in Cleric’s gear as I run a Zerker guardian traited for melee party support. The damage difference is simply insurmountable. I use the same traitlines in either build, just switch talents around… but I’ve tested doing Clerics stats in my Zerker build and it’s like fighting in molasses.

Seetoo.9316:

As for games specifically, they are therapeutic. Society has only just begun to discover the productive effects of games because they have been labeled for a long time as useless.

Shooters have produced more skilled surgeons due to the increase in their hand-eye coordination.
Games with fast moving objects (MMO’s come to mind) have been discovered to help improve eye disorders
Games specifically catered to address fears have helped cure those fears (Make a game specifically to slowly introduce an arachnophob to spiders).

lol, yeah keep telling yourself that. I don’t know about you, but I’m pretty sure most of us aren’t blind, arachnophobic surgeons.

We play games because it’s fun. We choose careers as social workers or wear clerics armor because we like helping others. We join the army or wear PVT because we have the urge to protect and serve. We get a degree in liberal arts or run around wvw naked because we are free souls.

Not everyone is going to do things your way, whether in gaming or in real life. Get used to it.

And as if by magic the GW2 community became the Tera community.

Yaki.9563:

While zerker is the best, I don’t hate on anyone for taking anything that they think is best for their build. MF, on the other hand, is not a build choice. It’s a loot gain choice at the expense of the other party members. In no way does MF enhance any build in the game in any situation at all. At least with PVT you can be deluded into thinking you are tanking or it might occasionally save you if you fail to dodge or whatever.

MF = kick the selfish kitten .
PVT = sigh, what a waste.
Zerk = yay, gj.
Clerics = meh, just hope he’s the only one.

Apparently, you are a pro-PvE’er and not one who plays WvW religiously. PVT is the bomb in WvW for a guardian, as well as aspects of mixed knights.