Guild Wars 2

Some posters here seem to think so. These posters support nerfs like SY (and likely the GS nerf, of which I am unfamiliar). There seems to be a pattern of whining about Guardian and the nerfs being received. Is this true?

In this game cant exist a SUPPORT ONLY class, because its against the non trinity concept.
But some changes, go in that way.

No. The Guardian is not support only. Everyone who genuinely believes that is misguided and doesn’t know the full potential of the profession. Guardians can be powerful in every aspect of the game, they just have an easier time focusing on support.
And as Ganzo says, this game doesn’t support the idea of “support only”. Some people would like it, but that would require remaking the game from scratch.

Ok so you have at least 2 posters here patting each other on the back and supporting the nerf because they believe it’s supposed to be a support class…Eg

Brutaly.6257

If the groupsupport side (removal of conditions) isnt the mainusage something is very wrong indeed

and,

evilcherry.1327

If you choose guardian and think it is able to actively pwn a fight you have got to the wrong class.

The guardian maxim is always react, defend, and outlast. Otherwise what would be the difference between them and warriors anyway…

Which conflicts hugely with this poster’s statement:

Lumines.3916

but you sure as hell can spin2win and mow down thieves like butter in hotjoin

Really look at the variation in the nerf supporters statements. It’s wildly conflicting. All trying to defend Anet and the nerfing that is going on.

wait they touch the hammer. the same people telling you everything is fine in their world (the crithammer world) will feel the same as many people feel currently for their build.

Wow, you are skewing words to an absurd level.

You cannot justify having a large number of strong boons, including fury, protection, ret, in a PVP scene at 40% uptime.
If guardian damage is, because of this nerf, put to an unacceptable level, then just increase baseline damage accordingly.

What I can never understand is people always want to have active abilities, active abilities, active abilities, and tons of cooldowns. I am happy with autoattacks as long as I got more tools to save everyone else’s kitten, while we already have better than average baseline damage.

If you are saying this is the definition of support class then I’d be happy to bite the bullet.

Yes you can justify it. That’s how the initial decision was made and really it’s the whole point of a Guardian.. but it’s being successively watered down. Buffing the ‘weaker’ classes would be better. And you know what remember that quote that other classes use for these situations, "it’s not supposed to be balanced ", or something… Guardians don’t get to use that line.

wolfie.7296:

Ok so you have at least 2 posters here patting each other on the back and supporting the nerf because they believe it’s supposed to be a support class…Eg

Learn to read and understand the basics, shouts (SY included) are supporttools which is easy to see since they all have range and are supposed to help (support) the team, if not they wouldnt have range at all.

What i commented on was that something is very wrong with a supporttool if the personal gain is bigger then the actual support and hence are chosen for non supportive gameplay. This is the case with SY, the nerf to it now makes the supportive aspect relatively stronger and the tool might start to serve its purpose.

This isnt the same as guardians being “support only” which is and has never been my opinion. Which is kind of obvious if just took 2 minutes to read the crithammer thread which basically is all about crits and damage.

wait they touch the hammer. the same people telling you everything is fine in their world (the crithammer world) will feel the same as many people feel currently for their build.

I assume this is directed versus me.

Lol, i couldnt care less as long as changes are balanced, as the last patch was. I can play with all sorts of setups and have no issues to perform in any scenario.

I just go with a lifeleech build with 1h sword/scepter and 80% critchance, it will be fine.

The main reason i wrote the crithammer thread was due to that fact that there were so many people trolling these forums stating that the hammer was useless when it wasnt. Its really weird that those whines actually stopped and really nothing has changed except the general knowledge of hammer gameplay.

I could write the same on every weapon we have, just to show you how to play it effectively. People should whine less and learn the class instead.

The fun part is a couple of those “hammer is useless whiners” now whine about other “useless” stuff and show a lack of knowledge regarding this professions ability to perform.

Each class is meant to have its little niche. Warriors are good for raw damage output, rangers are good for their sheer range, engineers are good for their endless utility and guardians are good for their incredible capacity to support. Of course you can specialise outside of these areas and often successfully – but it’s simply easier to spec into support and damage sponging.

You can’t support in 1v1 situations which often arise.

wolfie.7296:

You can’t support in 1v1 situations which often arise.

And if your into, or its a very common scenario, ie roaming, 1 vs 1 you trait meditations which are great in one on one.

And shoutguardians are still a kitten in 1 vs 1 and it doesnt matter if you use SY, SY is just an i win button versus a lot of classes in spvp. HtL and/or SYG works fine in 1 vs 1, espcially in tankbuilds whihc benefit more from retaliation which has 100% practical uptime without SY.

The whole point of creating builds is that they shouldnt solve all situations optimal, then there are no choices or tactical aspects to consider and no compromises to be made.

I think your last commen infact points out the “problem” with SY, being to good and a jack of all trades.

Urban.4875

People forget that the Guardian was intended as a support class and not the top tier DPS class. RF is powerful.

Again, I read this from some1 else this time.

Wolfie, this is getting beyond kitten You’ve twisted their words beyond belief. Perhaps they shouldn’t even bother explaining themselves because this thread is bloody stupid.

Brutaly that wasn’t directed to anyone in particular but those that feel ok whenever nerfs don’t affect their build.
If i remember well you were not a proponent of the GS.
A little question: how do you make greatsword work with the last SoW nerf?
Oh and one last thing: abstain from call others ignorants, that just puts you in the elitistic/egoistical group you pretend to not belong to.

SY is just an i win button versus a lot of classes in spvp

Really? When some other classes have CC plus 2 second kills? And it breaks stun once. After that you can be stunlocked and wiped off the board by any of the 2 second kill classes. Who btw, basically openly point out how op some of their abilities are. I mean Anet thinks Line of warding is more op than 100blades/elementalists/mesmers (and hence Line of Warding gets nerfed last patch) it’s insane.

A little question: how do you make greatsword work with the last SoW nerf?

The GS is still more than viable after the SoW nerf so treating it like it is a smashed recorded is pure false. Symbol builds still work and can still deal massive amount of damage(still the most in many cases).

Frankly, my opinion at this point is a guardian shouldn’t be going solo. You shouldn’t be trying to engage an opponent in 1v1, you should always have at least one partner around you. The guardian class exists to make his team stronger and in the process, make himself stronger.

Sorry but it looks like we’re a teamwork class.

Polle.6908”

You’ve twisted their words beyond belief.

I quote their words. And their words are clear about their view of the class as a “support” one. As stated, you can see this with their own words when they use the word “support” in relation to the Guardian. It’s undeniable.

wolfie.7296:

Urban.4875

People forget that the Guardian was intended as a support class and not the top tier DPS class. RF is powerful.

Again, I read this from some1 else this time.

Yes, Guardians are a support class.

Now, let me go back doing some DPS and winning with my squad (that i happily support) in sPVP, Pve, WvW, please, while you reroll (insert another class of your choice).

Have fun playing it!

So far the answer appears to be yes. Why these nerfs are coming in response to the classes who want the Guardian pushed fully into support.

wolfie.7296:

Urban.4875

People forget that the Guardian was intended as a support class and not the top tier DPS class. RF is powerful.

Again, I read this from some1 else this time.

bantapoo.1093:

Brutaly that wasn’t directed to anyone in particular but those that feel ok whenever nerfs don’t affect their build.

It do affect my spvp build and still i find it justified.

I quote their words. And their words are clear about their view of the class as a “support” one. As stated, you can see this with their own words when they use the word “support” in relation to the Guardian. It’s undeniable.

Are you stupid or what. Shouts are supporttools, this isnt the same as being support only.

If you dont want to support at all, you can go 1h sword and scepter and only use meditations (except merciful intervention which is support as well) and tome of wrath. Then you have no support, kitten i think its the only setup with zero support.

Mind you that you cant use offhand since those has supporttools in them as well.

We are by nature a supportive class which support to a certain degree based on traits and skills, this isnt the same as support only!!!!!

Please stop this non sense, it just turns more and more stupid for every second.

Arenanets own words:

“Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory.”

Stop the nonsense or reroll.

I’m quoting other people. They state what they want. Example:

Fabsm.5897”

So you’re whining about your inability to kill 1vs1, well, reroll (insert another class here) pls.

I repeat these are not my words. You shouldn’t be questioning me on this thread.

And I agree. If you want to be 1v1 supreme, the warrior might be more suitable for you.

But I’ll tell you this – three warriors versus three guardians? God kitten those signet babies are going down.

wolfie.7296:

I’m quoting other people. They state what they want. Example:

Fabsm.5897”

So you’re whining about your inability to kill 1vs1, well, reroll (insert another class here) pls.

I repeat these are not my words. You shouldn’t be questioning me on this thread.

And it only turns worse and worse.

He is not saying guardians in general i are unable to kill 1 vs 1, he says you are and urge you to reroll since only a completely incompetent person finds the guardian to lack in a 1 vs 1 or have built it to not perform great in one on one.

The only thing we can do is questioning you since you quote out of context and seem to have severe issues when it comes to reading and understanding.

NaturalOne.1982:

And I agree. If you want to be 1v1 supreme, the warrior might be more suitable for you.

But I’ll tell you this – three warriors versus three guardians? God kitten those signet babies are going down.

If people cant beat a 100 blade warrior in a 1 on 1 then they just arent any good. One of the easiest classes to handle in one on one. Just see to it that they miss on the first 100 blades and virtues and focus skill 5 effectively reduces the damage by more then half. Both can be used while knocked down

3 vs 3, the warriors wouldnt even drop one single guardian imo.

wolfie.7296:

You can’t support in 1v1 situations which often arise.

All your support skills still help yourself. If I’m running my Shout-Bunker build, I use my Shouts for my own benefit first, and the benefit of my team second. It’s a good, high-survivability build that just gets stronger with other people around.

Brutaly.6257:

Arenanets own words:

“Guardians are devoted fighters who protect their allies and smite their enemies by drawing from the power of their virtues. True guardians are brilliant tacticians and selfless defenders who know when to sacrifice their own defenses to empower their allies to achieve victory.”

Stop the nonsense or reroll.

Arenanet also said that each profession should be able to fulfill each role adequately. If Guardians are being pigeonholed into a support role (by either other players or the developers) there is a problem.
Luckily, Guardians can do great damage as well.

wolfie.7296:

So far the answer appears to be yes. Why these nerfs are coming in response to the classes who want the Guardian pushed fully into support.

Yes, this is the answer you’re looking for.

There is a plot we Guardian players are putting on to push our class fully into support.

Now you can reroll another class in peace.

Have fun playing this game, we will SUPPORT you ever!

The only problem there is that I have watched other Guardians play.

Ynna.8769:

Arenanet also said that each profession should be able to fulfill each role adequately. If Guardians are being pigeonholed into a support role (by either other players or the developers) there is a problem.
Luckily, Guardians can do great damage as well.

I totally agree and the guardian fulfills all roles in their own a unique way and i cant see that the patch today have changed that in any way or form.

OP just dont understand what people write and this thread should be closed.

wolfie.7296:

The only problem there is that I have watched other Guardians play.

I totally agree with that!
(you watched the bad ones)

The patch nerfed an ability that was good in 1v1s, as the down side did not come into play if you exclusively 1v1. So yes it specifically targets Guardians in 1v1 situations. How is that for “any way, shape or form”?

I do believe that “Save Yourselves!” was nerfed in an incorrect fashion but I understand why they did it – it’s supposed to be used to take conditions away from allies, not to turn yourself into an indestructible beast.

A more appropriate nerf would’ve been the following:
“If you do not take any conditions away from nearby allies upon activating this Shout, the boon duration is halved.”
But that’s difficult to include on a tooltip.

wolfie.7296:

The patch nerfed an ability that was good in 1v1s, as the down side did not come into play if you exclusively 1v1. So yes it specifically targets Guardians in 1v1 situations. How is that for “any way, shape or form”?

It’s designed to be a support ability, not a 1v1 ability. The way it used in PvP went against its intended use as designed by the developers.

Let’s not forget thieves oponly admit op powers and show it off in videos, but are not punished like Guardians are. This includes the bizarre Line of Warding nerf, more op than thieves, elems and mesmers.

wolfie.7296:

Let’s not forget thieves oponly admit op powers and show it off in videos, but are not punished like Guardians are. This includes the bizarre Line of Warding nerf, more op than thieves, elems and mesmers.

This is the more sensate line you wrote in this thread.

Now i can whine for a Line of Warding, because it’s totally undeserved. What good is nerfing a skill that is useful to keep things at range, while we’re horrible at range?

I bet that many WvW groups found the Wall of Reflection/Line of Warding combination too overwhelming at first contact (but then again, if you REALLY know how to play, you can dodge over).

But rest assured, no thief can ever kill us Guardians 1vs1 unless we’re talking of a protracted (3 minutes+) duel. And that is not happening anytime in sPvP.

Edit: Mesmer can kill us easily, and so necromancers, they’re a terrible mismatch for us.

So, uh, wolfie, I think you are getting the wrong idea..when people say we are a support class, that means we have a lot of skills that affect not only us, but others as well—that does not mean we cannot use it for our own selves.

I personally built my guardian for myself only and I think the role of Guardian is shouldn’t be a “Hey you—guardian over there, gimme some support plox bc that’s what you do” but more of a “Dang, I’m glad you are on my team”. Support is always there but we aren’t designed only for support, it’s just we can’t stop our virtues and some utilities from saving people from conditions or giving them might or whatnot.

Two things on SY patch, imo the nerf for SY shouldn’t be a big deal to anyone unless they pvp, wvw is even safe from this update which in my opinion affects your “true” character a lot more because it includes your armor specific focus.
Another thing is that SY is great and all, but it shouldn’t be your source of boons, otherwise you are taking the simple route to the class—think about what people actually use SY for—it’s not very strategic is it? I’ll admit to using SY for a great burst of strength and not really timing it well to get conditions off my teammates.

Guardians have so much to them, but we can’t have it all, the whole purpose of many skills and traits allows you to cater your character to your own liking. If an update has affected your gameplay to the point of uncomfortability, then you need to learn not to rely on too many things (I really hope a select bunch of skills weren’t the make it or break it for you when choosing a guardian—appreciate everything & learn what it has to offer). What is the problem with guardians really? We still have glass canon builds getting up to 11k damage output, we still have many options to break stuns and remove conditions. Guardians can do whatever the heck they want, so dont’ assume and mis-interpret updates.

wolfie.7296:

Let’s not forget thieves oponly admit op powers and show it off in videos, but are not punished like Guardians are. This includes the bizarre Line of Warding nerf, more op than thieves, elems and mesmers.

Punished? Really? You personally are being “punished”? Oh the hyperbole. I think you need to stop playing games and get some fresh air.

Punished? Really? You personally are being “punished”? Oh the hyperbole. I think you need to stop playing games and get some fresh air.

Yes. I specced both that and Line of Warding. Now I use neither. Which punishes me bc I can no longer enjoy using either ability. Anet has narrowed my choices.

Support Only

That is not what I was promised in the game trailers or the Manifesto. Each class should be able to fill the roles. If Elementalists can tank, I see no reason why I should be pigeonholed. No other class is.

Well, if you talk to DPS-oriented Guardians, it sounds like a lot of them are happy.

I think the point is that we CAN support really well, unlike a lot of other classes, so we’re kind of expected to. The soloing/DPS experience is better with a lot of other classes, so it sort of doesn’t make sense to play a Guardian if you don’t want to support, imo.

I’m just happy that we don’t utterly suck at solo and DPS, which is a refreshing change from a lot of other MMOs.

OP, I am not sure what the point of this post is other than to stir people up or complain…Guardians are still by in large in a fantastic position compared to many other classes. The class description when you create a guardian says “Guardians specialize in protective and defensive magic. A deep sense of loyalty fuels their passion and power. They’re also skilled with a variety of weapons which they put to good use against their enemies.” This sounds exactly like what a guardian is still currently, a fantastic blend of offensive and defensive/support capability for both yourself and your allies. Nerfs/buffs happen all the time in MMO’s adapt and move on or don’t play it’s really that simple but these types of posts do little to help convey any kind of constructive feedback. Just my two cents not that anyone asked lol….

LoL , this whole post reminds me of the time of miyamoto musashi , when dualwielding was considered fallacy and the proper way was to wield one long sword with 2 hands, and use your short sword as a back up.

Miyamoto musashi went," yea you guys do that , im just gonna use whatever is in my arsenal to pwn you" and soon developed the ni tou ichi ryu , a.k.a. the dual wield sword style.

Same can be said about the “save yourself” skill , people identified its strength, and instead of using it like a condition draw magnet for support, used it for a buff tool in fights . The main aim is to win and thats what they did . But GOD went , stop using your brains !!! i want it this way only ! nerf nerf nerf! One can only realise why the poeple are so up in arms for using their brains..

I don’t get it… they’ve only nerfed SY to 5 seconds as opposed to 10-ish seconds in a PvP setting but in return we received 3 buffs, and people are complaining that the guardian class is dead?

Kiijj.3594:

I don’t get it… they’ve only nerfed SY to 5 seconds as opposed to 10-ish seconds in a PvP setting but in return we received 3 buffs, and people are complaining that the guardian class is dead?

Some people can never be pleased.

Or, you could look at it the other way. This game is so close to perfect that people get even MORE annoyed with what few imperfections remain. It’s the whole proximity issue. If you know you’re not going to win, you don’t really care if you lose, but if you get attached to the idea of winning, it feels like something has been taken from you.

It should be a salute to the devs that people get more melodramatic about this game than the most partisan bickerers in the current US election.

@Kazzuki
Excellent and entertaining post, i enjoyed it immensly.

The only issue is that the whiners are actually the two hand sword blokes that actually think its the only way to solve the issue, winning that is, and have no other means to do it then an ability thats obvious and requires very little of the player.

The dual wielders are infact that ones that has discovered the true power of a guardian and that isnt relying on a single “doctrine” to play the game but actually can apply multiple tactics to win the battle.

Two hand swords play (SY) is rather simple compared to dual wielding (using the entire toolbox) that requires more techniques, movement and tactics.

Other then that a great post, thx.

Not at all. There are actually many ways to spec every class so it’s difficult to expect every “build” to be viable. Just look at the fact that a weapon dictates what skills you have. What if I like the aesthetics of a hammer but the skills of a sword? The line between legitimate complaints and “my way on the highway” is very thin.

Brutaly.6257:

The dual wielders are infact that ones that has discovered the true power of a guardian and that isnt relying on a single “doctrine” to play the game but actually can apply multiple tactics to win the battle.

Two hand swords play (SY) is rather simple compared to dual wielding (using the entire toolbox) that requires more techniques, movement and tactics.

This.

I am not interested in support, never was and never will be. But I like how the Guardian plays so that’s my profession of choice.

I enjoyed GS pre-nerf and stopped enjoying it post-nerf, not so much because of lower DPS but because combat with it became less fluid and thus much less fun for me.

These days I run with Sword/Focus + Scepter/Torch (and carry the staff for rare situations when it’s pure win, like say clearing out blossoms in TA). I swap weapons constantly. I gear Berserker, so my damage output is pretty beastly – be it solo or in groups. I rarely facetank, meaning I take great care with my positioning and movement, which is what makes combat fun for me. I use shouts because they benefit me (they also benefit my group but that’s a pleasant side effect, as far as I am concerned), and I am often the last man standing (figuratively, as I am a girl and play a female toon:)).

When people say Guardians are nothing but support I laugh.

When I see someone say guardian is support in an spvp match i make sure im top player in kills and taking nodes.

For the most part people know that the guardian is good in the right hands, im not the best but ive beat some people from Dara Mactire (yes the guild from wow that paid to have rank 1 glads in their guild) and they werent that great with their guardian, they would laugh when they 2v1’ed you and when they got 2v1’ed they would cry and moan.

Its not a support class and anyone who thinks so should learn to play.

What is a Guardian in GW2?

Take a Lotro Guardian, take a Lotro Minstrel, put ‘em in a blender, scrape out all the bits of aggro skills and taunts, pour out a little of the defenses because Guards are more squishy here, make sure there are no lumps of healing skills because we don’t really heal like a Minstrel, add in a little DPS powder to make up for it, bake at 425 degrees until golden brown, cool on a rack before serving. Voila, a GW2 Guardian.

I’m a huge fan of the Guardian in this game, the game itself is amazing and the Guardian is a blast to play.

I have built mine to be as ‘tanky’ as possible because I refuse to acknowledge the removal of the trinity, lol. There is some aggro mechanic going on with most mobs, but not all. I have no ‘taunts’ or artificial means to control and maintain aggro, but still I see my role in a group as being the ‘rock’ that the group is centered on, my buffs and heals are spammed continuously for my mates, I must contribute my share of DPS, but most of all I must stay alive so that we can all stay alive. I may not always dodge when I need to and I need to be able to absorb a few big hits and recover quickly. Typically I stand toe to toe with the ‘boss’ and try to round up as many lesser mobs as possible and keep them on me, despite the lack of more traditional aggro skills and mechanics. My squishier ranged DPS mates can stand back and fire away for the most part. My melee DPS pals can run in, strike, stick and move around me. These are traditional tank roles and it works well for me, and for my gang in this game.

Combat here is more fluid, homogenous and cross-supporting. Instead of dedicated and specialized Tank, Healer, CC, Buffer/Debuffer and DPS classes, think of it as removing the Healer, CC and Buffer/Debuffer completely and giving everyone both self- and group-healing skills, some CC skills, some buff skills (Boons), and some debuff skills (Conditions). Now add more DPS ability to the (typically) non-DPS classes.

Everyone in a fight needs to contribute DPS. No one can stand back and be a ‘healer’ or fully ‘support class’. Your group needs your DPS to be successful. So as a Guardian you have to wear many hats at once. This definitely keeps you your toes as you need to be much more engaged in combat than you are as a more traditional tank. Instead of just paying attention to the mobs, the peels. the adds and thinking only of aggro, you need to also watch everyone’s health, boons and conditions and act accordingly. And you have to be cranking in the DPS and not just tapping away on the mob while tanking. Throw in the (admittedly arbitrary) dodge-roll/big hit mechanic, that basically forces the entire group to both remain focused on the fight and move often, and combat becomes very fluid and dynamic.

As a long time ‘tank’ across multiple games, the whole idea of setting up good positioning where you are tanking all the mobs, standing in one spot for the whole duration of the fight, have them turned towards you, and your group is behind the mob banging away on him is usually out the window. The whole group in a GW2 fight is moving around a lot (moreso the melee types) and it’s more like a bar brawl than a set-piece battle. And, it’s fun as hell.

Here is my take on Guardian and our weapon sets/skills back this up. We as a class are a cross between a Warrior and a Wizard. So basically we are Mage Knights. Does this include support, sure all the classses can fill in a support role even Thiefs. But we are not limited to that in any way, shape or form. We can do DPS/Tank/Support roles just like all the other classes. It will basically come down to how your speced and what skills/weapon sets your using. If anyone makes claims that we are a pigeon holed class and can only do support functions, then don’t listen to them, their clueless anyways.