Guild Wars 2

Hi all, thought some might find this useful.

I have used my excel client of gw2 to calculate effective power and then estimated dps of a variety of specs while using a variety of gear setups.

The specs I tested were:
*15/15/0/20/20
*15/25/0/20/10
*10/30/0/5/25
*10/25/0/10/25
*20/30/0/10/10
*20/25/0/0/25
*0/0/30/30/10

The gear setups I tested were (sigils were always force + accuracy unless otherwise specified):
*Full zerker with night sigil, night + force when duel wielding.
*Full zerker.
*Valk armor/weapons, zerker trinkets.
*Knight armor/weapons, zerker trinkets.
*Soldier armor/weapons, zerker trinkets.
*Full valk.
*Full knight.
*Full soldier.
*Full celestial.

Assumptions I made:
*Scholar runes at all times.
*Spotter (150 precision).
*Banner (170 precision, 15 crit damage).
*25 might.
*25 stacks of bloodlust.
*100% fury.
*100 power, 10% crit damage food.
*+10% damage potion.
*5 active boons power of the virtuous where applicable.
*No unscathed contender.
*25% vulnerability.
Radiance X, Zeal II, Zeal VII for GS & Zeal IX for scepter. Writ of Persistence in Honor whenever possible. RHS whenever 30 in honor.

How did I calculate dps?
By using the effective power / base power to find an overall modifier to the base damage of a weapon. I used 416.8 as the base dps of 1h, 420 as the base dps of non-WoP hammer, 520 as the base dps of WoP hammer, 489 as the base dps of greatsword, 467 as the base dps of scepter. (Note on scepter : I assume all orbs connect. This is highly unlikely unless you’re fighting a large stationary target. This is the best case scenario). All of these numbers reconcile with the skill coefficients and numbers found on the wiki or through testing in the event that the wiki was incorrect (such as whirling wrath).

For average 1h+GS rotations I used:
(
( (Sword EP/916) * (416.8*10) )
+
( (GS EP/916) * (1428+1428+1016+3726) )
)
/24
..where the 1428+1428+1016+3726 shows the two whirling wraths, symbol, and 9 seconds of auto attack.
I also found that even in the typical hammer specs, swapping from hammer to GS for some burst resulted in a dps increase in some scenarios.

All effective power numbers should be reproducible via websites like buildcraft, which I believe uses the same behind the scenes mechanisms as I do.

Anyway, here’s the results in a jpg format:
http://s27.postimg.org/nf571pco3/guarddps.jpg

As you can see.. for gear zerker is obviously the highest dps, usually followed by valk/zerk, then knight/zerk, then soldier/zerk, then full valk, then full celestial, then full knight, then full soldier.
All of the specs performed close to each other besides the 30 val 30 hon spec. The 15/25/0/20/10 hammer build manages to keep up with the 1h/gs ones, being only ~5% or so behind, while the 15/15 variant drops another ~10% or so in exchange for the perma prot & everything else which comes with that type of build. For single target fights I’m a fan of the scepter, but it loses a whole lot of dps when the target is moving or small enough to avoid most of the orbs. I would like to see this turned into a real symbol which guarantees the damage.

I also added damage reduction, hp, and effective hp.. which should act as a way of indicating how much burst damage you can take before you die (otherwise I would have included healing, which becomes far too variable). From this you can see that valk not only out-damaged knight but has more effective hp without heals. I suppose the question on valk vs knight for a touch of survivability comes down to a question of what you see yourself dying from most – burst 1shots etc or a slow war of attrition.

As a bonus I added a full cleric/boon 0/0/30/30/10 selfish build to show that at best it can use hammer + WoP to achieve just under 1/3 the damage a real zerker will do. Not great. With staff camping I’d guess less than half of that, so you may as well just assume this guy is doing 0 dps. Better hope the heals and boons are worth it.

Any questions please ask.

What about assassin/zerk mix? Having everything zerk except for head, shoulder and boots which are assassins?

Having things like a weapon or armor as assassin increases the ep by a fraction of a percent in the best scenarios (15.15.0.20.20) and is a loss at worst (anything with rhs). The value increases If you don’t have spotter/banner and becomes an increase even for 1hs. If you’re rich buy both and alternate, if you’re poor it’s not enough difference to lose sleep over.

Just spotted the Anet forum messed with my formulas via formatting. I’ll fix that later..

Is the 170 power banner missing just in the buff list or in the calculations themselves, too?

Both. I forgot the possible second banner.
Please don’t make me recalculate everything .. /cry.

Two questions:

How did you arrive at your numbers for the base DPS of a weapon? Ex. 489 for Greatsword.

Would you consider adding a few more non-100% damage builds for comparison? Looking specifically at hybrids, which aren’t represented at all. It’s fine to see the extremes – Meta and wet noodle Cleric AH/PoV – but I’m not the only one interested in seeing the middle ground as well.

Edit: I’m, also having trouble parsing your formula. It looks like you’re saying:

[(Effective Power / Base Power) * (Base DPS) * (Greatsword Rotation Total Damage)] / 24 (time, possibly?)

Which I have issues with, but I don’t think I’m reading it right.

Yeah you’re not reading it right. The forum formatting tools messed it up. Sorry.

For the 1h+2h rotation I use the following:

(
( (Sword EP/916) * (416.8*10) )
+
( (GS EP/916) * (1428+1428+1016+3726) )
)
/24

This estimates 10 seconds of sword dps which is the sword’s effective power divided by base power to get your ‘multiplier’ (example : someone with 1832 power does twice the damage a 916 power player does, so the multiplier is 2). You then multiply that by how much base damage you see yourself doing in 10 seconds. In this case I have estimated the sword base dps as 416.8. Over ten seconds I see myself doing 4168 base damage, so I multiply that by the effective power multiplier.

Same for the greatsword, except instead of simply using 416.8 as the estimated base dps thanks to only using sword’s auto attack, I have to factor in active skills. 1428 is the base damage for WW assuming you do it from within the mob, 1016 is the base damage for symbol, and 414 is the base damage of the greatsword auto attack. During the typical perfect rotation you’d use WW to take you from time point 0 to time point 2, Symbol to take you to time point 3, and then need to wait 9 time points before WW was off cooldown at time point 12. You then use WW again to take you to time point 14. I have conservatively estimated 2 seconds per WW and 1 second for the symbol.

This means that you get 2 WW, 1 symbol, and 9 seconds of auto attack dps at a base of 416.8 over a total of 14 seconds, and a further 10 seconds of the 1h auto. Add them all together using the weapon specific effective power multipliers and divide by the total time taken, 24.

I’m not 100% sure on the precise cast time on WW/Symbol, but the base dps figures are taken from both the wiki and in game tests.

To answer your question about how I reached a base of 489 dps for the greatsword by itself:
1428+1428+1016+19 seconds of auto attack dps @ 414dps per 24 second cycle = 11738. 11738/24 = 489. The reason swapping 10 of those seconds for 1h auto attack dps at 416.8dps is so beneficial is that usually the 1h effective power multiplier is a lot higher.

There is obviously something to be said for perfect rotations.. they are unlikely.. but this is the best way I have of giving some kind of estimate. The other flaw is obviously that auto attacks rarely slot perfectly into set amounts of seconds.

To answer your question about middle ground, I’m happy to run any suggestions you have. However I might argue that the middle ground you might look for would simply include the best bang for buck traits mixed with a bunch of survivability gear. Eg 10/30/0/5/25 in pvt if you don’t want to go zerker.

11k HPs on nearly all the best DPS builds?! IMHO That’s simply not playable.

This is useful, thanks.

I’ve never tried to look closely into DPS guardian, because in my opinion the damage is not worth the sacrificed tankiness, not only EHP but traits too. In my eyes, this spreadsheet supports that thought. Am I reading it incorrectly or missing something?

xFireize.6318:

This is useful, thanks.

I’ve never tried to look closely into DPS guardian, because in my opinion the damage is not worth the sacrificed tankiness, not only EHP but traits too. In my eyes, this spreadsheet supports that thought. Am I reading it incorrectly or missing something?

AH build using knights/soldier or other think rely on Heal/HP/Armor to mitigate damage.
A DPS build like the top one rely on Reflects/Projectile Absorb/Aegis/Weakness/Protection/Blind

It’s a totally different gameplay and is much more punishing but once you get the hang of it, you can survive just as easily with all the DPS bonus.

Svarty.8019:

11k HPs on nearly all the best DPS builds?! IMHO That’s simply not playable.

you are wrong.

Svarty.8019:

11k HPs on nearly all the best DPS builds?! IMHO That’s simply not playable.

This shows how unplayable it is http://youtu.be/whAcKsXHvxw
Dead zerkers do zero dps as you can see.

Trice.4598:

xFireize.6318:

This is useful, thanks.

I’ve never tried to look closely into DPS guardian, because in my opinion the damage is not worth the sacrificed tankiness, not only EHP but traits too. In my eyes, this spreadsheet supports that thought. Am I reading it incorrectly or missing something?

AH build using knights/soldier or other think rely on Heal/HP/Armor to mitigate damage.
A DPS build like the top one rely on Reflects/Projectile Absorb/Aegis/Weakness/Protection/Blind

My AH front-line bunker guardian build has access to and rely on all of those too (plus heal), sitting at 34k EHP. Like I said, the reward is still not worth the punishment IMO. I’m just looking at it from a WvW perspective, where I need to survive an enemy’s zerg burst bomb.

I am thinking to make a guardian with a higher DPS after I finished ascended armor for my current build. I doubt I will go full berserker with 20/25/0/0/25 though.

Svarty.8019:

11k HPs on nearly all the best DPS builds?! IMHO That’s simply not playable.

Where do I even begin…

swiftpaw.6397:

Svarty.8019:

11k HPs on nearly all the best DPS builds?! IMHO That’s simply not playable.

Where do I even begin…

Begin away!

It’s perfectly playable if you are good at dodging, don’t waste aegis, know when to blind, when to reflect, when to cleanse and when to shelter.
The question is – will your team mates decked out in celestial gear running a condi spec keep themselves alive? If the answer is no then the damage and attacks aimed at you increase, and you’ll have a tougher time.

In short, in good groups, you could probably get away with 1k health most of the time. Getting hit is rare. In bad groups? There are a few trains of thought. Some say you should double the group’s dps by being one of the only decent players. Some say otherwise. For example I am likely to do a few fotms today. One at 40+ which I will almost certainly use a glass zerker for, and one at 30+ with friends who don’t follow the meta and like to take it slow, for which I will probably use a cleric to ensure nobody dies and everybody has fun.

fadeaway.2807:

It’s perfectly playable if you are good at dodging, don’t waste aegis, know when to blind, when to reflect, when to cleanse and when to shelter.

Oh sorry, I didn’t realise this class was solely for elitists. My bad.

Svarty.8019:

fadeaway.2807:

It’s perfectly playable if you are good at dodging, don’t waste aegis, know when to blind, when to reflect, when to cleanse and when to shelter.

Oh sorry, I didn’t realise this class was solely for elitists. My bad.

lol dodging is elitism now.

Get the memo fade, geez.

I don’t think dodging fits in with the heavy armor style of a guardian, and tbh it’s a crutch for bad players to avoid damage. I’ve taken the keybinding off and facetank everything like boss.

Svarty.8019:

fadeaway.2807:

It’s perfectly playable if you are good at dodging, don’t waste aegis, know when to blind, when to reflect, when to cleanse and when to shelter.

Oh sorry, I didn’t realise this class was solely for elitists. My bad.

Sorry, I didn’t know being a good player automatically made someone an elitist.

It’s times like this I can’t believe the people on this forum are real.

I’m scared.

Colesy, hold me.

swiftpaw.6397:

Svarty.8019:

fadeaway.2807:

It’s perfectly playable if you are good at dodging, don’t waste aegis, know when to blind, when to reflect, when to cleanse and when to shelter.

Oh sorry, I didn’t realise this class was solely for elitists. My bad.

lol dodging is elitism now.

Get the memo fade, geez.

Imagines Svarty in game

He rage quits pug dungeon when he sees people dodging. Goes to guild chat “You wouldn’t believe these mean elitists! They were DODGING!! I will not be a part of their filthy elitism!”.

swiftpaw.6397:

I’m scared.

Colesy, hold me.

Evaded!

I’m sorry swiftpaw, I’m an elitist. did you see that dodge?

You made your point, there’s no need to kitten up the first page of this thread with insulting posts completely unrelated to the OP.

When I was told about this thread, I couldn’t believe in its existance.
I left the secure, warm lands of another subforum to face… face this… well.
It’s ridiculous how there are people out there still advocating the usefulness of berserker over good stat combos like cleric, knight or sentinel. Have you ever heard of a templar, a supporter, a divine warrior in other dungeons that’s wearing dps gear and speccing max dps? No?
The guardian is a supporter, first and foremost: you have to heal your team, protect it against your enemies. Svarty is right: you can’t play a build that requires dodges and using your cooldowns to save yourself or remove conditions while they should be used to heal your team; also, if you dodge you lose dps and you break aggro from the enemies, while you should be tanking them instead, doing damage to them so your team doesn’t take aggro.
This should be the ABC of guardians. I can’t believe at the amount of elitism in this thread… Pfff, dodging and blind.

deSade.9437:

…

I’d bet that someone will appear who believes all this.

deSade.9437:

When I was told about this thread, I couldn’t believe in its existance.
I left the secure, warm lands of another subforum to face… face this… well.
It’s ridiculous how there are people out there still advocating the usefulness of berserker over good stat combos like cleric, knight or sentinel. Have you ever heard of a templar, a supporter, a divine warrior in other dungeons that’s wearing dps gear and speccing max dps? No?
The guardian is a supporter, first and foremost: you have to heal your team, protect it against your enemies. Svarty is right: you can’t play a build that requires dodges and using your cooldowns to save yourself or remove conditions while they should be used to heal your team; also, if you dodge you lose dps and you break aggro from the enemies, while you should be tanking them instead, doing damage to them so your team doesn’t take aggro.
This should be the ABC of guardians. I can’t believe at the amount of elitism in this thread… Pfff, dodging and blind.

NO ENCOURAGEMENT ALLOWED

I love the table, makes me feel even more confident that I made the right decision getting the celestial/soldier hybrid gear, as balanced build is what I was aiming at.

Arlette.9684:

I love the table, makes me feel even more confident that I made the right decision getting the celestial/soldier hybrid gear, as balanced build is what I was aiming at.

Can you link me to what you use? I was looking for a celestial hybrid build of some sort I use this atm and it’s too squish for me…
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAR8dlUgiC3FSHEfIFSODRCBtZAQHUVh4BrAGB-jgCBYfJDbBg8DiKYIzJPKrJSCiFXFRjVtET9KR6XC1A-e

swiftpaw.6397:

NO ENCOURAGEMENT ALLOWED

Sowwy, mom. Errr I mean filthy elitist, vade retro!

There are different builds for a reason. Tanks guardians, DPS guardians, etc. are all useful have have their own uses. Just because someone uses full clerics doesn’t mean that their bad. It means that they’re going for support instead of dps. Why don’t we appreciate the variation that the guardian can do. Your cup of team may be DPS guard, but it is not everyone’s tea. Other people may like coffee better, so they go support. (I’m not calling any type of guardian a certain substance, but just a different flavor.) Some people have different ideas about the guardian, and should be allowed to mess with their own builds until they have what they want exactly in a build. Instead of elite zerg or selfish cleric, why don’t we go with dps and support. I hope that i at least tried to argue for build diversity, and won it with some people.

My cup of team is not carrying bads.

NevilleDevil.4530:

There are different builds for a reason. Tanks guardians, DPS guardians, etc. are all useful have have their own uses. Just because someone uses full clerics doesn’t mean that their bad. It means that they’re going for support instead of dps. Why don’t we appreciate the variation that the guardian can do. Your cup of team may be DPS guard, but it is not everyone’s tea. Other people may like coffee better, so they go support. (I’m not calling any type of guardian a certain substance, but just a different flavor.) Some people have different ideas about the guardian, and should be allowed to mess with their own builds until they have what they want exactly in a build. Instead of elite zerg or selfish cleric, why don’t we go with dps and support. I hope that i at least tried to argue for build diversity, and won it with some people.

I felt the same way when I first started. But once you realize the nature of pve in this game, you realize how useless and bad for your team non-dps builds are. Dps guardian still has all the support needed for any pve content in the game. Until there are drastic changes, full dps groups will always fair better than balanced.

Cruxiis.3574:

Arlette.9684:

I love the table, makes me feel even more confident that I made the right decision getting the celestial/soldier hybrid gear, as balanced build is what I was aiming at.

Can you link me to what you use? I was looking for a celestial hybrid build of some sort I use this atm and it’s too squish for me…
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAR8dlUgiC3FSHEfIFSODRCBtZAQHUVh4BrAGB-jgCBYfJDbBg8DiKYIzJPKrJSCiFXFRjVtET9KR6XC1A-e

This is what I’m running, keep in mind I only have 2 ascended trinkets due to lack of laurels, optimally i’ll be switching those for some more celestial/berserker-valkyrie mix

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAR8dlUgiDnGyOEf4ESmiVCBxUURw31DIKiaIA-jUDBYLCyEEQ0HBO5TQM7RZtMsIasqaQ6FYKTK1qXA2bA2cQ+ELrWKgtGDA-w

Edit: This is strictly roaming WvW, for PvE you’re better off getting a different rune set and ditching some of the HP altogether. I’d go with something like this:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAR8dlUgiDnGyOEf4ESmiVCBxUURw31DIKiaIA-jUzAYLBZCCEVIwJfBxsnyaxtIasqaI9CmqUpW9CYvBs5QejlVLFwWjBA-w

laharl.8435:

NevilleDevil.4530:

There are different builds for a reason. Tanks guardians, DPS guardians, etc. are all useful have have their own uses. Just because someone uses full clerics doesn’t mean that their bad. It means that they’re going for support instead of dps. Why don’t we appreciate the variation that the guardian can do. Your cup of team may be DPS guard, but it is not everyone’s tea. Other people may like coffee better, so they go support. (I’m not calling any type of guardian a certain substance, but just a different flavor.) Some people have different ideas about the guardian, and should be allowed to mess with their own builds until they have what they want exactly in a build. Instead of elite zerg or selfish cleric, why don’t we go with dps and support. I hope that i at least tried to argue for build diversity, and won it with some people.

I felt the same way when I first started. But once you realize the nature of pve in this game, you realize how useless and bad for your team non-dps builds are. Dps guardian still has all the support needed for any pve content in the game. Until there are drastic changes, full dps groups will always fair better than balanced.

Even though best dps is the fastest way to get through content because anet made all classes heal themselves and 99.99999% of pve is stupid easy. Everyone has a way to play where it makes it fun for them. I guess that is the point of what I’m trying to say. If the game is not fun, then why play at all. So if you find a more support build more fun then I understand why you do so. I know some people will disagree with me, but honestly have fun with your class. Don’t make it a trudge for yourself to play a certain way because it the most dps way.

The problem with that is if you are in a dungeon with 4 other people. You have the potential to ruin their fun by playing a poor build.

Agree, your own fun is one thing but there are 4 other people to consider.
The trick is to identify what the group is looking for..If you’ve got 3-4 other people all suited up in zerker stats asking for a speedrun, it would be really rude to show up in cleric gear and slow them down. Don’t do that!

If you can find a group who don’t mind taking it slower, perhaps who might also be casual/badly geared/specced themselves.. (friends, casual guildies, newbies perhaps) well then anything goes. It might make the run faster overall to go zerker yourself so you can help burst things down but nobody is going to get upset if you don’t.

I’ve been alternating between my full cleric build and my regular zerker builds in fotm for some time now. Only 10 minutes ago I stood besides 3 dead and 1 downed party members vs Mai Trin, got the 2nd guy back on his feet and we quite simply stood there and facetanked every single attack while we rezzed the party one by one thanks to regen, battle presence, healing symbols, virtues + renewed focus, some dodge heals, correct usage of purging flames, empower etc. Even hard fractals such as dredge and shaman become a joke (albeit slower fights). You can’t provide that level of team support to a bad group as a zerker. You shouldn’t need to. But hey, sometimes the group calls for it.

At the end of the day if you want to be a full cleric or something, go ahead… but make sure you only join the groups who don’t mind it. Do not go around thinking you are optimal and deserve to be in the level 49 meta speed clear groups, because they will hate you for it.

Oh, I will point out some serious disadvantages which people often don’t think about with support builds.

The radius on shouts is awful. Hold the line is a great heal in theory but with 600 radius unless your group is disciplined you’ll miss half of them.
Same with battle presence, 600 radius.
Same with your dodge roll, on paper a 1-2k heal is great but with 240 radius it really has to be ‘aimed’ at people who are dying.
Empower suffers the same fate with a 600 radius.
Symbols we all know about.

The best heal by far is the 1200 radius virtue, and that’s better used as a condition cleanse… which funnily enough can also be done by a zerker.

And finally, if you can’t get rid of poison or get hit by agony, the heals are chopped down. Support is very situational. Tank stats only work when you take damage. Zerker DPS is permanent

swiftpaw.6397:

The problem with that is if you are in a dungeon with 4 other people. You have the potential to ruin their fun by playing a poor build.

This is my final words on the topic, there are two different parts to the game, the build and the player skill. If the player has the best build but has no skill, then the player will ruin your fun.

People preform better when they are playing a build that they like. They tend to pay more attention to the game and preform better.

Also, having people run different builds and test different stats, allow people to discover the next “best” build.

If you may feel like that may ruin your fun, then just play with people who are on your trusted people list. That should be an easy solution to your fun ruining problem. Instead of forcing builds on someone, just not play with them. It’s that simple and your fun is not ruined.

obal.3218:

Svarty.8019:

11k HPs on nearly all the best DPS builds?! IMHO That’s simply not playable.

This shows how unplayable it is http://youtu.be/whAcKsXHvxw
Dead zerkers do zero dps as you can see.

But this is not how the average game goes for many people. Here’s your random average Joe video: http://youtu.be/o0G3i9DLhUE

I use zerker gear myself with a hammer build when I’m pugging but I seriously wonder how people are able to survive in average pugs with the number 1 DPS build in OP’s list?

Noah.4756:

obal.3218:

Svarty.8019:

11k HPs on nearly all the best DPS builds?! IMHO That’s simply not playable.

This shows how unplayable it is http://youtu.be/whAcKsXHvxw
Dead zerkers do zero dps as you can see.

But this is not how the average game goes for many people. Here’s your random average Joe video: http://youtu.be/o0G3i9DLhUE

I use zerker gear myself with a hammer build when I’m pugging but I seriously wonder how people are able to survive in average pugs with the number 1 DPS build in OP’s list?

The person in the video had bad utility choice, no weapon swap?, no energy sigils?, and didn’t know what to do in phase 2. You can just put wall up and stand in it with shield of wrath up and be fine, dodge backwards waiting half a second and dodging forwards while casting aegis, dodge backwards and use renewed focus or shelter and walk back to him and be fine. Guardians have so much at their disposal for survival that using it properly is better than trying to tank hits. You just have to know the fight and get used to using what you have.

I would agree the 20/25/0/0/25 build is not for the average pug in Arah and suggested in my guide taking 10/25/0/10/25 or 10/30/0/5/25 in that case depending on your skill level. However, someone claimed it was unplayable so I just provided that to show otherwise. I use 20/25/0/0/25 everywhere but fractals and do fine. Our typical lupi fights don’t push him nearly that far into phase 3 and I usually get targeted by the single target life steal and am fine. I have 2x aegis, renewed focus, shield of wrath, wall of reflection, and shelter to keep me alive. Most classes going into the fight won’t have nearly as much as that to negate damage.

NevilleDevil.4530:

laharl.8435:

NevilleDevil.4530:

There are different builds for a reason. Tanks guardians, DPS guardians, etc. are all useful have have their own uses. Just because someone uses full clerics doesn’t mean that their bad. It means that they’re going for support instead of dps. Why don’t we appreciate the variation that the guardian can do. Your cup of team may be DPS guard, but it is not everyone’s tea. Other people may like coffee better, so they go support. (I’m not calling any type of guardian a certain substance, but just a different flavor.) Some people have different ideas about the guardian, and should be allowed to mess with their own builds until they have what they want exactly in a build. Instead of elite zerg or selfish cleric, why don’t we go with dps and support. I hope that i at least tried to argue for build diversity, and won it with some people.

I felt the same way when I first started. But once you realize the nature of pve in this game, you realize how useless and bad for your team non-dps builds are. Dps guardian still has all the support needed for any pve content in the game. Until there are drastic changes, full dps groups will always fair better than balanced.

Even though best dps is the fastest way to get through content because anet made all classes heal themselves and 99.99999% of pve is stupid easy. Everyone has a way to play where it makes it fun for them. I guess that is the point of what I’m trying to say. If the game is not fun, then why play at all. So if you find a more support build more fun then I understand why you do so. I know some people will disagree with me, but honestly have fun with your class. Don’t make it a trudge for yourself to play a certain way because it the most dps way.

I don’t necessarily find a support build to be fun. I find being useful to my team to be fun. When I started I thought being mainly support was useful. Eventually, as I learned the game, I found that is not at all true. So I switched to dps while providing the right kind of support. I find that being peak usefulness to my team is the most fun for me.

OP. Since 5 points for vigor on crit is an immense quality of life improvement and seeing as you put 20/25/0/0/25 first and 20/30/0/10/10 second, how would 25/30/0/5/10 work? Assuming I don’t care for retreat cd. I’ll do the math myself but I was kinda hoping you already did it. I expect it to be between them, below the first and above the second.

robertul.3679:

OP. Since 5 points for vigor on crit is an immense quality of life improvement and seeing as you put 20/25/0/0/25 first and 20/30/0/10/10 second, how would 25/30/0/5/10 work? Assuming I don’t care for retreat cd. I’ll do the math myself but I was kinda hoping you already did it. I expect it to be between them, below the first and above the second.

It would indeed go second but you must consider the viability of the build. I’d go and also say that 20/30/0/10/10 is hardly viable.

25 is Zeal is a really low DPS increase that I would not consider. If you are to put 20, you must consider using Greatsword as main DPS so the 30 in Radiance is also not the best investment along with the 15 in Zeal which will shine in Hammer perma protection build (15/15/0/20/10 with 10 point left) but with Greatsword – Sw/Fc it won’t help much with vuln.

I’d say overall your idea is not bad but you are sacrificing a lot of quality of life for low DPS increase. I’d still go 10/30/0/5/25, you get the vigor, access to more condi cleanse, about 4-5% Damage increase (which cover the 5% GS lost in zeal) from 25 in virtue along with faster recharge/longer boon duration and you get back the 30 in radiance for crit chance while Auto attacking with Sword.

Also the chart did not consider unscathed contender which is nice when fight don’t require the condi cleanse. There is a good amount of fight where I can keep it up for more than half the fight. (CoE, AC, TA, and probably more)

Another anecdote on the whole zerker cleric stuff. I just ran a fotm38 as a 0/0/20/30/20 cleric. Regen, battle pres, symbols etc.. crazy healings per second. First three fractals almost nobody died. Then we get the molten facility end boss. My shouts, symbols, dodge heal, empower etc all become utterly useless thanks to the mobile nature of the fight combined with the small radius.

I was fairly comfortable with my own survivability, so I put on my zerker gear, equip unscathed contendor. Long story short I ended up soloing the first boss from 1/3 hp to 0 and auto rezzing the party.

In the right situations I’m finding cleric builds and gear to be fantastic. Static fights mostly. In the wrong situations you’re a total waste of space.

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anyway back to the original topic..
Yeah I can see 25/30/0/5/10 being slightly better dps than 20/30/0/10/10 because it has 50 more power, and better than 10/30/0/5/25 depending on how many boons you have. I guess the difference is slightly under 5% assuming 5 boons. How much value you place on that honor trait.

Don’t forget though. The reason we don’t just go something like 10/30/30/0/0 for even more dps is because the gw2 pve meta is basically selecting 5 people with huge dps and asking who can sacrifice the least dps for the most support. You can bet if most other classes could trade under 5% of their dps away for consecration mastery, absolute resolution and 25% boon duration they would take it.

deSade.9437:

The guardian is a supporter, first and foremost: you have to heal your team, protect it against your enemies. Svarty is right: you can’t play a build that requires dodges and using your cooldowns to save yourself or remove conditions while they should be used to heal your team; also, if you dodge you lose dps and you break aggro from the enemies, while you should be tanking them instead, doing damage to them so your team doesn’t take aggro.

While I do not completely disagree with your opening statement regarding what the Guardian is, you are also somewhat wrong.

There is no primary class meta in the game has it relates to DPS, Healing, or Tanking. Therefore, you are offered up different traits and gear to accommodate either of the play styles. By that very nature alone you are incorrect in that a Guardian is a supporting class.

You gear and trait for your play style. No more, no less. Because of the state the designers and developers believe the class to be in is another story and thread all together and probably means why people say we are the best supporting player and will never have the leading role.

I would love to try this in spvp.

Looking at this made me want to log in and play my Guardian again. Then I remembered what stacking was…

Hmm… maybe I’ll still log in sometime and learn Arah.

I agree that you are offered different traits and gear to accommodate either of the play styles. At the same time, however, each class does have their own strength. For e.g., guardian will maximize its strength if one goes bunker and take dmg for the team, while provide support for members. Same as war. goes full zerker and concentrate on dps. Of course you can go full zerker on guard. or go meat shield for war. but that is not the class’s strength lie in.
I actually tired of such AH/zerker discussion, you play however you are pleased. In the end, in pve what matters is that how well you know the fight/boss rather than you personal build.

deSade.9437:

deSade.9437:

The guardian is a supporter, first and foremost: you have to heal your team, protect it against your enemies. Svarty is right: you can’t play a build that requires dodges and using your cooldowns to save yourself or remove conditions while they should be used to heal your team; also, if you dodge you lose dps and you break aggro from the enemies, while you should be tanking them instead, doing damage to them so your team doesn’t take aggro.

While I do not completely disagree with your opening statement regarding what the Guardian is, you are also somewhat wrong.

There is no primary class meta in the game has it relates to DPS, Healing, or Tanking. Therefore, you are offered up different traits and gear to accommodate either of the play styles. By that very nature alone you are incorrect in that a Guardian is a supporting class.

You gear and trait for your play style. No more, no less. Because of the state the designers and developers believe the class to be in is another story and thread all together and probably means why people say we are the best supporting player and will never have the leading role.

KingZ.2314:

. In the end, in pve what matters is that how well you know the fight/boss rather than you personal build.

Agreed.