Guild Wars 2

Where are you not going to dodge? If you don’t dodge, you’ll lose your aegis. If you lose your aegis, you lose the +20% damage modifier. This is still within the context of dungeons. You’re taking these examples of DPS as if you everything you fight is a test dumby that doesn’t attack.

there is no contradiction in dodging to keep your aegis and how useless elusive power is but the thing is that you need to dodge every 5s to keep endurance below 100%.

Do you dodge every 5 s in a dungeon/fractal?

If you dodge every 15th second to avoid damage/keep aegis the net effect from elusive power is approx 3%. That is the reality. Personally i dont have to dodge every 15th seconds in fractals to keep aegis but that might be my playstyle but it works at level 40 at least.

Tbh pve is close to test a dummy and also the best place to test mechanics which is the main reason why i even run fractals.

I’d like to see you maintaining your Aegis and Scholar buff throughout at least 90% of a fractal 40+, I’d be very impressed.

When doing something like Lupicus, yes. You need to dodge quite a lot. This could cause a bias view from me because all I really do is Arah. You don’t really have to dodge that much when you do a 4-5 man with a Mesmer, but 1-3 the fights longer, you get targeted with more abilities.

Brutaly speaks truth, elusive power sucks though I feel like I should correct few things.

Dodge takes 0.75s and sometimes you have to dodge twice (ashyn, lupi, etc). Saying how often you have to dodge depends on how many guardians you have in party and what content you do.

Haviz is correct about the lenght of the dodge. I took the liberty to add in a 0,25 seconds for two reason:

1. Dodging in general brings you out of position/range/los so you need a couple of tenth of a sec to commence doing damage.

2. 1s is dividable with 5s which makes the illustration of the usefulness of elusive power easier to understand.

Sorry for that.

Amins.3710:

spoj.9672:

Amins.3710:

Obtena.7952:

Also, LAWL at people telling Brutaly he doesn’t have any idea.

There are a WHOLE lot of new people on our Guardian forums who really just don’t have a clue.

LOL at people thinking being known means they are always right. I dont know who he is or you for that matter. But im guessing WvW players? If so, you cant really claim to be experts on dungeons or PvE.

Psst… take a look at the Sticky’s…

It helps to be informed about the people you’re making comments about.

Why? If i think your wrong im not going to change my opinion just because your known by casuals. What makes you think you know better than me?

I think the point is that Brutaly DOES know his Guardian gameplay. Maybe you don’t agree with him but if you take the time to peruse his posts and are an intelligent individual, you will realize that his information is given with authority, with sound assessment and well spoken. He at least deserves a greater respect than to be insulted by Guardian forum tourists telling him he doesn’t know.

OK, enough kissing kitten. Bottom line … there are a handful of individuals here that shouldn’t be immediately dismissed when they have an opinion on something. If your going to disagree, you better have a comparable depth of knowledgeable, have some context to frame your opinion … or be extremely obtuse.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I have absolutely no idea who Brutaly is and I doubt any of the dungeon crawlers in the actual dungeon forum know who he is.

We don’t care if he’s known or has a sticky, if we think he’s wrong we’ll say so.

Obtena.7952:

I think the point is that Brutaly DOES know his Guardian gameplay. Maybe you don’t agree with him but if you take the time to peruse his posts and are an intelligent individual, you will realize that his information is given with authority, with sound assessment and well spoken. He at least deserves a greater respect than to be insulted by Guardian forum tourists telling him he doesn’t know.

OK, enough kissing kitten. Bottom line … there are a handful of individuals here that shouldn’t be immediately dismissed when they have an opinion on something. If your going to disagree, you better have a comparable depth of knowledgeable, have some context to frame your opinion … or be extremely obtuse.

I never said he doesnt know his stuff. But claiming his opinions are more valid than mine is completely ignorant. He said in another thread hes no pve pro, so maybe you guys should pay a little more respect to those of us who do know our dungeon stuff. The same stuff goes on on the necro forums. One player is highly respected by the average necro player because he does loads of theory crafting and build videos, everyone jumps to support him and back him up even when hes not right. They dont look at it objectively, they just follow like sheep.

spoj.9672:

He said in another thread hes no pve pro, so maybe you guys should pay a little more respect to those of us who do know our dungeon stuff.

Brutaly.6257:

Personally i dont have to dodge every 15th seconds in fractals to keep aegis but that might be my playstyle but it works at level 40 at least.

… he’s got his playstyle down to to the point where he’s doing this. To me that’s meaningful and goes beyond ‘knowing dungeon stuff’. There are more examples of his expertise, far beyond the scope of this thread. More pro than you give him credit for (or himself).

Frankly, no one shows the kind of depth of Guardian knowledge this man has on this forum. The proof is simply to read some of his posts for yourself. He’s not the only one either. We are lucky to have a number of intelligent posters here who are objective and know how to back up their opinions with their experience and tests. Furthermore, the results are corroborated, so it’s not just frivolous farming of postcount on their part. Their contribution is selfless and furthers the collective knowledge of the profession.

None of this is a discredit to the occasional poster of course. Their experiences are also valuable to the player who’s level of play hasn’t ascended to these subtle considerations. Simply based on the amount I have learned from him, Foofad and a number of others, I can safely say that they have established themselves as something more than ‘a guy with an opinion’. Authority is the word I’m looking for here.

Clearly he’s no Dungeon Runner… He’s just on Fractals lvl 40.

Stop appealing to authority, you’re not going to sway anyone.

I’m more interested in the content of a person’s posts, not who they are. To offer an example, you Obtena post absolutely nothing of significance while Brutaly is trying to give statistics to support what he is saying. I’m far more interested in that, than you trying to say “well he’s awesome so he must be right”.

Have to agree with colesy. Though Brutaly didn’t perhaps give a better alternative to my proposal, he did explain why a trait I thought was a good investment, wasn’t as good as I thought it was.

His fanboy followers on the other-hand don’t particularly do any favours.

guys, time to reel it back in now, i think we scared OP away. :///

Amins.3710:

spoj.9672:

Amins.3710:

Obtena.7952:

Also, LAWL at people telling Brutaly he doesn’t have any idea.

There are a WHOLE lot of new people on our Guardian forums who really just don’t have a clue.

LOL at people thinking being known means they are always right. I dont know who he is or you for that matter. But im guessing WvW players? If so, you cant really claim to be experts on dungeons or PvE.

Psst… take a look at the Sticky’s…

It helps to be informed about the people you’re making comments about.

Oh lord Jesus there’s a sticky. This changes everything. :O

akamon.2769:

guys, time to reel it back in now, i think we scared OP away. :///

Ah but you see. This is no longer about the OP! This is about a clash of opinions…

This. Is. WAR!!!!

ah, in that case, war on.

OP, look what you’ve created. ; )))
(either way, still lot of good info to be had. to a certain extent… lol)

Obtena.7952:

I think the point is that Brutaly DOES know his Guardian gameplay. Maybe you don’t agree with him but if you take the time to peruse his posts and are an intelligent individual, you will realize that his information is given with authority, with sound assessment and well spoken. He at least deserves a greater respect than to be insulted by Guardian forum tourists telling him he doesn’t know.

OK, enough kissing kitten. Bottom line … there are a handful of individuals here that shouldn’t be immediately dismissed when they have an opinion on something. If your going to disagree, you better have a comparable depth of knowledgeable, have some context to frame your opinion … or be extremely obtuse.

Remember how this discussion started? Brutaly claiming that people would take Honor into DPS builds just for a “hp cushion”, which is outright bull manure.

Amins.3710:

Clearly he’s no Dungeon Runner… He’s just on Fractals lvl 40.

And I’m on 80. Does that make my opinion more valid?

haviz.1340:

Amins.3710:

Clearly he’s no Dungeon Runner… He’s just on Fractals lvl 40.

And I’m on 80. Does that make my opinion more valid?

You missed the point, as most of the people in these threads have been doing lately…

Guys, taking things out of context means you’re not understanding what the discussion is about OR you haven’t read what’s been stated previously.

My comment was just pointing out that he does run dungeons, as someone previously called him a “WvW’er”… which clearly isn’t ~just~ the case… he does both.

A

Me on the other hand… you won’t see me inside dungeons.. that was sooo 10 years ago!
=]

EDIT: Doesn’t mean that there’s not good information / insight into new builds in these discussions, as Akamon has stated.

CptAurellian.9537:

Remember how this discussion started? Brutaly claiming that people would take Honor into DPS builds just for a “hp cushion”, which is outright bull manure.

I think his point was that people take Honor in DPS builds because they are ignorant of how to get better DPS from a different trait allocation … he just said it in a nicer way.

Obtena.7952:

CptAurellian.9537:

Remember how this discussion started? Brutaly claiming that people would take Honor into DPS builds just for a “hp cushion”, which is outright bull manure.

I think his point was that people take Honor in DPS builds because they are ignorant of how to get better DPS from a different trait allocation … he just said it in a nicer way than I just did.

Well then hes ignorant of why you take a dps guard. The reason many dps guards go into honor is for pure of voice.

Depends on what you call a DPS guardian …

spoj.9672:

Obtena.7952:

CptAurellian.9537:

Remember how this discussion started? Brutaly claiming that people would take Honor into DPS builds just for a “hp cushion”, which is outright bull manure.

I think his point was that people take Honor in DPS builds because they are ignorant of how to get better DPS from a different trait allocation … he just said it in a nicer way than I just did.

Well then hes ignorant of why you take a dps guard. The reason many dps guards go into honor is for pure of voice.

I think he (they?) are referring to me. I said take 25 into honor, because it allows you to get the most flat damage modifiers (vs if you had put those 25 elsewhere). I was proven that it wasn’t as good as I thought it was, however I don’t believe there was ever a recommendation of where to put the 25 instead, probably most of it into virtues.

@Obtena

The trait spread I suggested was what I believed (was told) was the highest ‘DPS’ spread a guardian could have, due to having the most % base damage modifiers. I’d call a DPS guard, a guardian whose main objective is to get the highest sustained damage output that they can.

The Mexican Cookie.3690:

I think he (they?) are referring to me. I said take 25 into honor, because it allows you to get the most flat damage modifiers (vs if you had put those 25 elsewhere). I was proven that it wasn’t as good as I thought it was, however I don’t believe there was ever a recommendation of where to put the 25 instead, probably most of it into virtues.

@.

Virtues is better… however, as it has been discussed elsewhere, you’re going to pick up the DPS in Virtues from Burning and then Boons on yourself.

If you have other people placing burning on your target (primarily single targets for bosses), it really does effect the effectiveness of it… so i’m not entirely sure it would be the best for single target as we all know ele’s / engi’s condi builds are better than guards.

Having said that though, you ~do~ pick up a solid 20% boon duration and Virtue recharge…

I would agree with that definition of DPS guardian so back to spoj ….

I don’t think someone that doesn’t believe that a DPS guardian should take 30 Honor for Pure of Voice is ignorant because that trait doesn’t DO anything if your goal is to increase you sustained damage.

What that DOES tell me is that any Guardian taking Pure of Honor then flipping around and saying you need to be uber-DPS with full Zerkers in all PVE content is being hypocritical.

Amins.3710:

You missed the point, as most of the people in these threads have been doing lately…

That was a sarcasm but you can get people misunderstanding others when someone says that typical honour guardian puts those points for hp cushion and then says something about PVT which is forbidden word in dungeons.

Obtena.7952:

I would agree with that definition of DPS guardian so back to spoj ….

I don’t think someone that doesn’t believe that a DPS guardian should take 30 Honor for Pure of Voice is ignorant because that trait doesn’t DO anything if your goal is to increase you sustained damage.

What that DOES tell me is that any Guardian taking Pure of Honor then flipping around and saying you need to be uber-DPS with full Zerkers in all PVE content is being hypocritical.

Because you take a dps guard for the support they provide while dealing good damage. You can go maximum dps, but you almost always need someone in the group to have condi cleanse. The maximum damage role is pretty much never taken by the guard, thats left for LH ele’s, warriors, thieves… basically every class except the guardian. Because the guard has such good defensive traits that can be taken without sacrificing too much dps.

haviz.1340:

Amins.3710:

You missed the point, as most of the people in these threads have been doing lately…

That was a sarcasm

Whoops! I missed it. Sorry

spoj.9672:

Obtena.7952:

I would agree with that definition of DPS guardian so back to spoj ….

I don’t think someone that doesn’t believe that a DPS guardian should take 30 Honor for Pure of Voice is ignorant because that trait doesn’t DO anything if your goal is to increase you sustained damage.

What that DOES tell me is that any Guardian taking Pure of Honor then flipping around and saying you need to be uber-DPS with full Zerkers in all PVE content is being hypocritical.

Because you take a dps guard for the support they provide while dealing good damage. You can go maximum dps, but you almost always need someone in the group to have condi cleanse. The maximum damage role is pretty much never taken by the guard, thats left for LH ele’s, warriors, thieves… basically every class except the guardian. Because the guard has such good defensive traits that can be taken without sacrificing too much dps.

Not to harp this point but I feel like I was just double talked here:

If DPS is the ultimate setup for PVE, always
… and anything but DPS setup is worthless in PVE, even for Guardians
… then how can you advocate 30 points for a defensive trait in a defense-oriented line?

I agree with Obtena. The only reason I thought points in Honor was a good a point investment was for the 25 minor, which turns out wasn’t so great. Pure of voice is a pretty questionable investment on a full damage guard.

Maybe 20/30/0/20/0? That gives you 5%+ GS damage off of zeal (IIRC) and enough honour points for empowering might. Or you could go 10/30/0/20/10 for quicker consecration cooldowns (WoR).

swiftpaw.6397:

Uhm idk if it’s been discussed.. But you can be both tanky and supporty and still run full zerker just fine.

No you can’t because running full Zerker means you’re a kitten elitist scum who is selfish and won’t rez other players and don’t even know how to play the game just grind CoFp1 and hates Magic Find so you should be banned from playing my game.

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

Obtena.7952:

I would agree with that definition of DPS guardian so back to spoj ….

I don’t think someone that doesn’t believe that a DPS guardian should take 30 Honor for Pure of Voice is ignorant because that trait doesn’t DO anything if your goal is to increase you sustained damage.

What that DOES tell me is that any Guardian taking Pure of Honor then flipping around and saying you need to be uber-DPS with full Zerkers in all PVE content is being hypocritical.

Because you take a dps guard for the support they provide while dealing good damage. You can go maximum dps, but you almost always need someone in the group to have condi cleanse. The maximum damage role is pretty much never taken by the guard, thats left for LH ele’s, warriors, thieves… basically every class except the guardian. Because the guard has such good defensive traits that can be taken without sacrificing too much dps.

Not to harp this point but I feel like I was just double talked here:

If DPS is the ultimate setup for PVE, always
… and anything but DPS setup is worthless in PVE, even for Guardians
… then how can you advocate 30 points for a defensive trait in a defense-oriented line?

Because every moment you are dead or dying is impacting your DPS. The 30 points in a defensive line allows you that sweetspot of realism between damage output and surivability and the reality that condition cleanse is pretty important for some portions of the content.

DPS is absolutely primal in the game but does not mean that you 100% sacrifice all vestiges of self-preservation in pursuit of it.

Kirschwasser.3972:

DPS is absolutely primal in the game but does not mean that you 100% sacrifice all vestiges of self-preservation in pursuit of it.

I agree with that but it seems that line of thinking doesn’t resonate with the people pushing the idea that DPS is best for PVE which was the point I was making with Spoj who thinks anyone that doesn’t understand why a DPS build wouldn’t use PoV is ignorant.

It only doesn’t resonate if you’re trying to think purely in black and white.

Obtena.7952:

Kirschwasser.3972:

DPS is absolutely primal in the game but does not mean that you 100% sacrifice all vestiges of self-preservation in pursuit of it.

I agree with that but it seems that line of thinking doesn’t resonate with the people pushing the idea that DPS is best for PVE which was the point I was making with Spoj who thinks anyone that doesn’t understand why a DPS build wouldn’t use PoV is ignorant.

I didnt say that rofl. I said him claiming that “honour in a dps build is for a hp sponge” is ignorant. Honor is for pure of voice. I dont take pure of voice anymore in my dps build but 0/30/0/30/10 is a perfectly valid dps build, its not the best for damage but its good and it provides good support.

AH, that’s music to my ears. Here I was thinking that anything that wasn’t full DPS zerkers builds was just useless, deserved a kick and made you a selfish leeching baddie.

Kirschwasser.3972:

swiftpaw.6397:

Uhm idk if it’s been discussed.. But you can be both tanky and supporty and still run full zerker just fine.

No you can’t because running full Zerker means you’re a kitten elitist scum who is selfish and won’t rez other players and don’t even know how to play the game just grind CoFp1 and hates Magic Find so you should be banned from playing my game.

Never a truer word spoken.

*wipes tear from eye *

Obtena.7952:

AH, that’s music to my ears. Here I was thinking that anything that wasn’t full DPS zerkers builds was just useless, deserved a kick and made you a selfish leeching baddie.

It appears somebody has an axe to grind.

Or maybe axe does too much DPS for your liking?

Maybe I do but not without reason … some health humility should clear up some inconsistent messaging for people asking questions as well.

so basically we are down to that PoV is such great support that it warrants a 30 points investment that could be invested in higher dps in any of the other lines or better support/dps thru virtues.

Sorry i dont buy it, especially since purging flames cleanses an entire team on multiple conditions, adds much more might per minute compared to EM (and even more in a elite surroundings since most fights are over in a very short time) if you just trait it in virtues. Even though tougher to cordinate.

Because every moment you are dead or dying is impacting your DPS. The 30 points in a defensive line allows you that sweetspot of realism between damage output and surivability and the reality that condition cleanse is pretty important for some portions of the content..

Which illustrates my point since condi removal can
be found in virtues/utilities.

Honor is more or less an HP cushion with a 30 point condiremoval trait which add very little value when using 1-2 other utilities like WoR, HR or spirit weapons. I think that sums it up.

Pure of voice gives you potentially 3 seperate condi removals. The other condi removals are higher cooldown. For fights like alpha p1 the burning attack happens at pretty spread out intervals. You can cleanse it more effectively with shouts and pure of voice. Its a good trait when you arent maxing out the kitten but as you have said there are alternatives. And even though elusive power isnt that greakittens still something, so honor isnt completely wasted. You also get EM which is not a bad trait either. If you want examples of bad traits just look at the necro, most of them are a complete joke.

Honor is more or less an HP cushion with a 30 point condiremoval trait which add very little value when using 1-2 other utilities like WoR, HR or spirit weapons. I think that sums it up.

I ran 10/30/30/0/0 with about 10.8k HP just fine in dungeons and I’d only consider myself a decent player. Zerker guardians absolutely do not need the HP cushion, it’s the utility skills which is what makes guards take points in honour, just how phantasm mesmers take points in inspiration (warden’s feedback is insane) but it boosts vitality too.

.. BUT BUT … zerker guardians don’t need anything but DPS … DPS is the ultimate best ever for PVE. Remember? Anything else is just pure noob! That kind of thinking will get you kicked from teams!

30 honor is just crap for a DPS build. The stats are wasted, the trait points are wasted.

And empowering might boosts group DPS.

colesy.8490:

And empowering might boosts group DPS.

Wow, you’re a little behind today aren’t you … Empowering might isn’t honor 30 or PoV.

BTW, didn’t this thread already cover how situational (and mediorce) EM is? Ah well, I’m sure you gave it a good read. You seem to be following along quite closely.

spoj.9672:

Pure of voice gives you potentially 3 seperate condi removals. The other condi removals are higher cooldown. For fights like alpha p1 the burning attack happens at pretty spread out intervals. You can cleanse it more effectively with shouts and pure of voice. Its a good trait when you arent maxing out the kitten but as you have said there are alternatives. And even though elusive power isnt that greakittens still something, so honor isnt completely wasted. You also get EM which is not a bad trait either. If you want examples of bad traits just look at the necro, most of them are a complete joke.

Potentially is the word, it only applies in triple shout builds which have to give up more “important” utilities like WoR, shield of the avenger, purging flames and hallowed ground both which removes/prevent conditions as well. Or why not bow of truth if its condi thats the issue on a particular boss.

And tbh all members of a coordinated team should have at least one condiremvoal with short cd, preferably team wide.

I have done all dungeons in a coordinated team, incl fractals, and i have never felt that conditions even is an issue. Maybe its different in speedruns but i dont do those since i dont farm anything in this game.

In pugs i see a use for it since you cant control the setup but i premades it has no value at all to me.

I didnt mean its wasted but we should at least look upon it compared to virtues.

And compared to virtues it only adds 3k health, 300 healing power and PoV, in general. There are exceptions in specific weapons setups.

colesy.8490:

Honor is more or less an HP cushion with a 30 point condiremoval trait which add very little value when using 1-2 other utilities like WoR, HR or spirit weapons. I think that sums it up.

I ran 10/30/30/0/0 with about 10.8k HP just fine in dungeons and I’d only consider myself a decent player. Zerker guardians absolutely do not need the HP cushion, it’s the utility skills which is what makes guards take points in honour, just how phantasm mesmers take points in inspiration (warden’s feedback is insane) but it boosts vitality too.

Which is my point that when people invest 30 points in honor that is the main reason, HP, since there are other and just as good solutions to add support/utility and dps in other lines.

Why not 10/25/0/10/25 and you have all the support in the world, higher dps, shorter cd on that one crucial shout, SyG, traited consecrations for max might stacking when needed and you can swap superior aria for larger symbol for max symbol dps on moving targets or longer lasting symbols on stationary targets and ofc the added support those symbols add when traited.

Just an example of a much more group centric build with higher dps.

colesy.8490:

And empowering might boosts group DPS.

Marginally, since the aoe is just tiny small. The team virtually has to be in the area of a symbol for it to hit. Its only in full out melee fights where this trait ever shine. Its 1-3 stacks on the team and approx 3 on you.

And not even then. if you have 20 points in honor use 2h mastery with traited consecrations and you have at least 15 stacks for 36 sec per 45 seconds and you can fill in the might gap with max 2 s delay and with a bigger aoe and the support those 2 consecrations add in general.

For pve there is only one trait, in a weapon neutral build, that has considerable value, PoV but is it worth 30 points?

If you can play well enough it is bad investment imo.

I just want to point out that some dps groups used to run PoV on their dps guardians because the condi removal helps the team to maintain 90%+ health for scholar rune procs