Guild Wars 2

What if Shelter gave protection for 6 seconds once it ended and had a base CD of 24 seconds?

How about making it so that Litany of Wrath heals you for 400 every second you go without taking damage and lasts for 10 seconds?

Shelter is fine where it is, though Litany of Wrath could use either higher base heal value or a higher %Damage conversion to heal. or maybe 1-2 seconds more on its duration. it had its niche pre-DH, and the thing going for it was the lower CD, than Shelter, but with Purification in the picture there’s almost no point.

A guardian and slight buffs in one sentence? Art thou insane? Guardians dont deserve buffs. If u give it protection. For some reason Traps will be able to oneshot the all players including team members including the entire kittening map and nuke it into oblivion. Just because u gave the healing skill a slight buff. Also shield of courage will be able to protect IRL projectiles throughout your monitor.

Lucentfir.7430:

Shelter is fine where it is, though Litany of Wrath could use either higher base heal value or a higher %Damage conversion to heal. or maybe 1-2 seconds more on its duration. it had its niche pre-DH, and the thing going for it was the lower CD, than Shelter, but with Purification in the picture there’s almost no point.

Shelter only gets used by some Guardians in PvE. I think it needs to be reworked. The CD should be low (as in 20 seconds) or it should give you a boon. Or shoot, make it so we can attack while blocking…

mrauls.6519:

Lucentfir.7430:

Shelter is fine where it is, though Litany of Wrath could use either higher base heal value or a higher %Damage conversion to heal. or maybe 1-2 seconds more on its duration. it had its niche pre-DH, and the thing going for it was the lower CD, than Shelter, but with Purification in the picture there’s almost no point.

Shelter only gets used by some Guardians in PvE. I think it needs to be reworked. The CD should be low (as in 20 seconds) or it should give you a boon. Or shoot, make it so we can attack while blocking…

I normally swap to Shelter, if I’m not traiting for traps(Piercing Light and Hunter’s Determination), or if there’s Double Power Rev on the other side. If you want to at least fix shelter, Shelter needs to front load the heal on use rather towards the end. That way if random unblockable rupt lands, you still get the heal, but you lose your block and have it go on full CD as always. Or they can jsut reverse it, and make it not go on full CD if it gets interrupted. What I really want to see made better is Litany of Wrath, that needs a bit of love.

Shelter is ok for begginers but Purification trap is better for skilled players.

Litany of wrath….that skill is pure garbage, I don’t think anything than huge buff can save its existence. Something like 50% dmg taken + 50% dmg given is healing you for 6 sec. or something like initial heal increase from 1600 to 5600 + 50% dmg converted to healing for 6 sec.

Shout heal could use 2 stacks of stability cause its channeled skill.

We could get some:

Spirit weapon heal – something like scrapper gyro heal.
Focus of protector – heals for 700 every 2 sec + protection.

Consecration heal:

Something like Chrono well heal.
XXX XXX → initial heal 4000 + ending heal 3000
converts 2 conditions into boons. 3 pulses. Pulse every 2 seconds.

Shelter could become a consecration and pulse Aegis for 2-3s while reducing damage by 20%. Keep the hps the same and it should synergize much better with traits like Pure of Heart or Shattered Aegis. Likewise, it would fit in perfectly with other consecrations and how they interact with the Master of Consecrations trait.

Litany isn’t terrible when fully traited (hps is fairly decent without doing damage), though I wouldn’t complain about dropping the recharge to 25s (20s traited).

And then yeah, Spirit Weapon heal of some sort would be nice. My OCD wants there to be 6 utility skills of each skill type.

Honestly I hate purification its dumb. Shelter was better because you could time it with their burst and I think it takes more skill and fits in with the guard vibe. But with purification you just throw it down and watch as someone heals you. Littany of wrath should heal for more per hit. revs get 100% we should at least get 75%.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Shelter could become a consecration and pulse Aegis for 2-3s while reducing damage by 20%. Keep the hps the same and it should synergize much better with traits like Pure of Heart or Shattered Aegis. Likewise, it would fit in perfectly with other consecrations and how they interact with the Master of Consecrations trait.

Litany isn’t terrible when fully traited (hps is fairly decent without doing damage), though I wouldn’t complain about dropping the recharge to 25s (20s traited).

And then yeah, Spirit Weapon heal of some sort would be nice. My OCD wants there to be 6 utility skills of each skill type.

Don’t be ridiculous. Shelter/shield of courage/renewed focus are the only way to negate coordinated bursts. Pulsed aegis does not help you in wvw or people would be using it https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Precognition

Considering that Shelter and consecrations have pretty much nothing to do with each other (Shelter isn’t AoE, it’s not supportive, and it’s not targeted), I don’t think Shelter should become a consecration. In fact I don’t think it should be buffed much (if at all) since it’s still one of the best guardian heals. If it became a consecration, its duration would be doubled with the consecration trait, which doesn’t sound remotely balanced to me.

I think Heal Area (or something like that) would be really cool for a consecration heal.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Don’t be ridiculous. Shelter/shield of courage/renewed focus are the only way to negate coordinated bursts. Pulsed aegis does not help you in wvw or people would be using it https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Precognition

We can get far, far more out of our aegis blocks (or blocks in general) than a mesmer can. Not to mention, there’s no reason aegis couldn’t be pulsed every 1/2 or 1/4s. There’s a lot you can change when you’re in the business of brainstorming.

Here’s an idea for shelter as a consecration:

Consecrate the ground beneath you with a field of light. Allies that pass through the field gain a Shelter which blocks attacks for 1.5 seconds. (Combo field: Light)

Field duration: 3 seconds, Cast time: 1/2s, Healing: same as shelter’s current value, Cooldown: 35 seconds.

It seems rather messy, but if we simply converted the current shelter to a consecration it would be quite op when traited (24s cd, 4 seconds of blocking. Heck, I’d use this over purification easily). If shelter were changed to act like this, it would function as more of a team utility/defence (for which guardian is already specialized in) and wouldn’t be horribly op if traited.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Don’t be ridiculous. Shelter/shield of courage/renewed focus are the only way to negate coordinated bursts. Pulsed aegis does not help you in wvw or people would be using it https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Precognition

We can get far, far more out of our aegis blocks (or blocks in general) than a mesmer can. Not to mention, there’s no reason aegis couldn’t be pulsed every 1/2 or 1/4s. There’s a lot you can change when you’re in the business of brainstorming.

Even if aegis pulsed every 1/4 of a second. It would still be inferior.
A single Rapid Fire would make you vulnerable to all other damage from their team.

You like the idea because of the potential for trait synergy.

But do you really think they would allow you to heal five people for 6k+ while healing you an additional 3000? Subsequently causing 12,600 damage in the area, and 1k+ ticks of retaliation to anyone aoeing from afar.

What would occur is they would nerf the traits, or they would triple the cooldown for the skill.

There is no way they would change shelter and keep everything else as it was.

The devs want to avoid the hate from guardians for making healing breeze inferior again. As well as the hate from chronomancer/ranger/necromancer for producing a vastly superior ground targeted aoe healing field.

Arcaedus.7290:

Here’s an idea for shelter as a consecration:

Consecrate the ground beneath you with a field of light. Allies that pass through the field gain a Shelter which blocks attacks for 1.5 seconds. (Combo field: Light)

Field duration: 3 seconds, Cast time: 1/2s, Healing: same as shelter’s current value, Cooldown: 35 seconds.

It seems rather messy, but if we simply converted the current shelter to a consecration it would be quite op when traited (24s cd, 4 seconds of blocking. Heck, I’d use this over purification easily). If shelter were changed to act like this, it would function as more of a team utility/defence (for which guardian is already specialized in) and wouldn’t be horribly op if traited.

This won’t work either. Look at Well of Precondition as it was before
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Well_of_Precognition&oldid=1133602
Vs now
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Well_of_Precognition
It had nothing to do with mesmer’s ability to use a utility 4 times in a row if necessary, because distortion/blur doesn’t stack. It has to do with limiting ways to attack while blocking/invulnerable.

• How do you counter shield of courage? Unblockables and/or juking.
• How about distortion? Mesmer can only share 1s every 5 seconds. To put 2s on 5 teammates would require wasting more than a minute in cooldowns.
• And stances? They are selective in what they protect.
• Obsidian flesh? 50 second cooldown.

To give allies a block they did not have to channel would require a skill with close to a minute cooldown. And it would not protect against all forms of action.

Shelter is essentially Infuse Light/Defiant Stance, but it blocks all incoming attacks for a short time rather than inverting their damage. Any unblockable damage you receive during it, barring a full interrupt, is nothing compared to the cc and conditions those other two heals receive (and have to deal with when the inversion ends).

You don’t know what you have.

Just categorize shelter as a meditation.

sorrychief.2563:

Just categorize shelter as a meditation.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_skills
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

The only instances where your health can be denied are if you run into a ward/wall that ccs, an engie/necro/guardian uses an unblockable cc, or for some reason a warrior/revenant is making their ccs unblockable with skills/traits.

So only 20ish skills out of hundreds can stop you from healing.

Shelter is arguably the best heal in the game, being slightly above withdraw (which can only be stopped with wards/walls or guardian pull skills) because the evade on withdraw is half the duration of the block from shelter.

You don’t know what you have.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Even if aegis pulsed every 1/4 of a second. It would still be inferior.
A single Rapid Fire would make you vulnerable to all other damage from their team.

You like the idea because of the potential for trait synergy.

But do you really think they would allow you to heal five people for 6k+ while healing you an additional 3000? Subsequently causing 12,600 damage in the area, and 1k+ ticks of retaliation to anyone aoeing from afar.

What would occur is they would nerf the traits, or they would triple the cooldown for the skill.

There is no way they would change shelter and keep everything else as it was.

The devs want to avoid the hate from guardians for making healing breeze inferior again. As well as the hate from chronomancer/ranger/necromancer for producing a vastly superior ground targeted aoe healing field.

Most of this is true, but it also requires best case scenario with 0 leeway in build, potential targets, and more. This is a case where it sounds interesting enough to have it tested in a dev build. Since we don’t have that we’ll never know what its capabilities/imprint on the game truly are. However, that shouldn’t stop us from talking about it.

The other direction we could go is to create a Untyped/New skill category where Shelter would be aligned (which is most likely the better option overall), but that requires a lot more thinking than how someone might put Shelter into an existing skill category.

sorrychief.2563:

Just categorize shelter as a meditation.

It’s bugged me for awhile that most meditations are instant skills. Since when does someone meditate instantly? In that sense, I wouldn’t mind RF and Shelter being meditations, and moving Smite, JI, CoP, MI, and LoW to another skill type. However, that’s a lot of work for probably not much gain.

Ghotistyx.6942:

Most of this is true, but it also requires best case scenario with 0 leeway in build, potential targets, and more. This is a case where it sounds interesting enough to have it tested in a dev build. Since we don’t have that we’ll never know what its capabilities/imprint on the game truly are. However, that shouldn’t stop us from talking about it.

The other direction we could go is to create a Untyped/New skill category where Shelter would be aligned (which is most likely the better option overall), but that requires a lot more thinking than how someone might put Shelter into an existing skill category… [Snip]

You obviously don’t play WvW
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_
if you think 5 players receiving 8 hits over 3 seconds is "best case. "

And you don’t know anything about the other classes if you think all heals need a skill type.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mending
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ether_Feast

Don’t ask for changes that will result in nerfs to the class or the skill.

Anet has a history of messing up the balance on skills that lacked type. Just ask the necros screaming for their heal to have the “shelter treatment” https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/REVERT-THE-CONSUME-CONDITION-CHANGES/first#post5153877

You don’t know what you have.

Daniel Handler.4816:

sorrychief.2563:

Just categorize shelter as a meditation.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_skills
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

The only instances where your health can be denied are if you run into a ward/wall that ccs, an engie/necro/guardian uses an unblockable cc, or for some reason a warrior/revenant is making their ccs unblockable with skills/traits.

So only 20ish skills out of hundreds can stop you from healing.

Shelter is arguably the best heal in the game, being slightly above withdraw (which can only be stopped with wards/walls or guardian pull skills) because the evade on withdraw is half the duration of the block from shelter.

You don’t know what you have.

Oh, I think I do. Been playing guardian for over 2 years now across all game modes. I have a pretty good idea of what Shelter can and can’t do. When HoT came out, I was extremely reluctant to switch over to Purification. After a lot of deliberation, talking with fellow players and advice from excellent duelists (in both pvp and wvw) I made that switch and it helped me to see that Shelter really isn’t all that. Don’t get me wrong, Shelter is an outstanding heal and is still a strong choice that competes exquisitely with Purification. I still use it often, but it’s not the be-all-end-all for guardians like some make it out to be.

Fact of the matter is that it’s not strong enough of a skill that it merits remaining uncategorized. Uncategorized skills are an artifact of the July 26th patch of 2015 which heavily revamped traits. At that time, categorizing particular skills would have made them OP, but nearly a year out from HoT, that wouldn’t be the case.

The only logical categorization for Shelter would be a consecration. The problem is that having Master of Consecrations add on 2s to the current Shelter would make it grossly op whereas nerfing shelter’s block time to a low enough duration (such that when traited, it would no longer be op) would make it completely useless if not traited. That’s why many are so willing to propose new ideas for Shelter so that it can become a consecration.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Such glorious preaching that nary a mortal ear could hear

Don’t hurt yourself on that soapbox

Well he’s right, so.

Arcaedus.7290:

Don’t get me wrong, Shelter is an outstanding heal and is still a strong choice that competes exquisitely with Purification. I still use it often, but it’s not the be-all-end-all for guardians like some make it out to be.

So if you think Shelter competes with Purification, which is probably one of the best heals in the game, why exactly do you think Shelter should be buffed? Just because it isn’t flat-out the best heal for guardians doesn’t mean it needs buffs. If anything, Signet of Resolve/Litany of Wrath should be the ones getting buffs, and Purification should get some nerfs if it’s so much better than the other heals (and it seems like it is).

Arcaedus.7290:

The only logical categorization for Shelter would be a consecration. The problem is that having Master of Consecrations add on 2s to the current Shelter would make it grossly op whereas nerfing shelter’s block time to a low enough duration (such that when traited, it would no longer be op) would make it completely useless if not traited. That’s why many are so willing to propose new ideas for Shelter so that it can become a consecration.

Shelter becoming a consecration wouldn’t be logical at all. Literally the only similarity Shelter has with consecrations is that it has a duration, which isn’t really much of a similarity. It isn’t ranged, it isn’t targeted, it isn’t AoE, and it isn’t supportive.
Shelter would fit into meditations, but meditations already have a heal, technically speaking. Not that meditations or shelter should be made even stronger by Shelter becoming a meditation, but I wouldn’t mind Shelter becoming a meditation assuming a balanced way to do it was implemented.

mrauls.6519:

Lucentfir.7430:

Shelter is fine where it is, though Litany of Wrath could use either higher base heal value or a higher %Damage conversion to heal. or maybe 1-2 seconds more on its duration. it had its niche pre-DH, and the thing going for it was the lower CD, than Shelter, but with Purification in the picture there’s almost no point.

Shelter only gets used by some Guardians in PvE. I think it needs to be reworked. The CD should be low (as in 20 seconds) or it should give you a boon. Or shoot, make it so we can attack while blocking…

I use shelter on WvW with mace/shield shout build, since i dont have gap closers i actually need those extra block, and i can clear 2 condis with shelter.
Atacking or doing anything else while on shelter would be nice to.

Altough for the heals in think shouts are lacklusting on heal, stability stacks, and the shout “kill ourselves” needs to be changed since we lost the boon duration wich the class was initially designed to have while using shouts.

Fashion Mage.3712:

So if you think Shelter competes with Purification, which is probably one of the best heals in the game, why exactly do you think Shelter should be buffed? Just because it isn’t flat-out the best heal for guardians doesn’t mean it needs buffs. If anything, Signet of Resolve/Litany of Wrath should be the ones getting buffs, and Purification should get some nerfs if it’s so much better than the other heals (and it seems like it is).

I wasn’t arguing for a direct buff to shelter. My point is that all uncategorized skills should be categorized and the argument that “categorizing them would make them op!” is no longer valid. Assigning a skill-type to shelter would be an indirect buff, which is fine as it wouldn’t be fair to assign a skill-type which inadvertently nerfs shelter.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Shelter becoming a consecration wouldn’t be logical at all. Literally the only similarity Shelter has with consecrations is that it has a duration, which isn’t really much of a similarity. It isn’t ranged, it isn’t targeted, it isn’t AoE, and it isn’t supportive.
Shelter would fit into meditations, but meditations already have a heal, technically speaking. Not that meditations or shelter should be made even stronger by Shelter becoming a meditation, but I wouldn’t mind Shelter becoming a meditation assuming a balanced way to do it was implemented.

Well Shelter obviously can’t be contorted into a spirit weapon and having two heal skills assigned to one skill-type is completely unprecedented (it would also show favoritism) so that only leaves consecrations. With a bit of creativity one can see shelter as a consecration: You’re affecting the space around you to effectively block harm from coming to yourself/allies. We do currently have a skill like that and it’s called Sanctuary, but there are other ways to modify shelter so that it seems unique. One such way is adding functionality. For example: upon casting you still receive your 2s blocking bubble and heal (so the core of the skill is still there) and additionally create a field which benefits/buffs allies in some way that current consecrations do not. This would encapsulate the “consecration” theme quite well if you ask me.

Arcaedus.7290:

Daniel Handler.4816:

sorrychief.2563:

Just categorize shelter as a meditation.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_skills
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Unblockable

The only instances where your health can be denied are if you run into a ward/wall that ccs, an engie/necro/guardian uses an unblockable cc, or for some reason a warrior/revenant is making their ccs unblockable with skills/traits.

So only 20ish skills out of hundreds can stop you from healing.

Shelter is arguably the best heal in the game, being slightly above withdraw (which can only be stopped with wards/walls or guardian pull skills) because the evade on withdraw is half the duration of the block from shelter.

You don’t know what you have.

Oh, I think I do. Been playing guardian for over 2 years now across all game modes. I have a pretty good idea of what Shelter can and can’t do. When HoT came out, I was extremely reluctant to switch over to Purification. After a lot of deliberation, talking with fellow players and advice from excellent duelists (in both pvp and wvw) I made that switch and it helped me to see that Shelter really isn’t all that. Don’t get me wrong, Shelter is an outstanding heal and is still a strong choice that competes exquisitely with Purification. I still use it often, but it’s not the be-all-end-all for guardians like some make it out to be.

Fact of the matter is that it’s not strong enough of a skill that it merits remaining uncategorized. Uncategorized skills are an artifact of the July 26th patch of 2015 which heavily revamped traits. At that time, categorizing particular skills would have made them OP, but nearly a year out from HoT, that wouldn’t be the case.

The only logical categorization for Shelter would be a consecration. The problem is that having Master of Consecrations add on 2s to the current Shelter would make it grossly op whereas nerfing shelter’s block time to a low enough duration (such that when traited, it would no longer be op) would make it completely useless if not traited. That’s why many are so willing to propose new ideas for Shelter so that it can become a consecration.

If you play all game modes then you know how worthless purification is outside of PvP.

Purification has the potential to heal 8k+ and prevent 10 attacks to the guardian (5 that miss and 5 that are dazed).

Shelter has the potential to heal 4k+ and block all attacks for 2 seconds.

• Shelter wins in WvW because the backline/gank are primarily ranged (ele/necro/revenant and mesmer/ranger). With necro wells being some of the only unblockable damage. Also bombing on commander exceeds ten attacks/hits.
• Shelter wins in raids because the enemy has breakbars. Bosses will force you to dodge, and the heal allows you to conserve one dodge.
• Shelter wins in fractals because the enemy has breakbars or ranged trash mobs, or trash mobs are using their basic attacks on .5 second interval applying 20 attacks over 2 second.
• Shelter wins in PvE for the same reason as fractals (think pocket raptors)

Shelter doesn’t compete with purification at all. It competes with receive the light (self sustain vs group sustain)

Purification competes with signet of resolve (shorter cooldown/cast 8k burst heal and 5 daze/blind from trap vs longer cooldown/cast 8k burst heal from any range and condi removal from passive).

And purification competes with Litany when both are traited (same cooldown, longer cast 8k burst heal and 5 daze/blind from trap vs same cooldown, shorter cast 6k heal from any range and 2k+ sustain heal from maintaining dps).

You can try to undersell shelter all you want, but the devs didn’t touch it for a reason.
And you should be glad they didn’t.

In exchange for the potential to reduce consume conditions to 20 with traits, it now has 5 more seconds in cd and applies 5 stacks of vulnerability to the user. When they trait it their heal also blinds them. Adding more self conditions to corruption is interesting, putting self conditions on a heal that cleanses you is not. They have transfers but for important situations.

Here is what would happen:

1. whatever consecration shelter became, its cooldown would increase, as that happened to every single uncategorized heal
2. people would complain because it would be worthless without the right tree. Like litany is without traited meditations. Like receive the light is without traited shouts. Like signet of resolve is without traited signets. And purification already requires a tree to use.
3. you and other guardians would beg ANET to revert the change. They would laugh and just reduce the harm slightly. But there would still be a harm to anyone not running virtues.

Do you really think they are competent enough to balance it in a desirable way?

And why the hell would you want to mess it up for other players just because purification is better for “duelists.” It doesn’t take “2 years” to realise all gameplay is not 1v1 and melee.

Edit: the argument is not that categorizing makes the OP. The arguement is that categorizing makes them worse. It is a nerf. How do you think Anet got away with increasing the cooldown on Withdraw https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/support/bugs/Withdraw-heal-not-updated yet they still to this day have not updated the healing to compensate.

edit: Tldr; all good heals are worse off from being categorized. They were nerfed for the potential to be slightly better if you traited them.

Arcaedus.7290:

I wasn’t arguing for a direct buff to shelter. My point is that all uncategorized skills should be categorized and the argument that “categorizing them would make them op!” is no longer valid. Assigning a skill-type to shelter would be an indirect buff, which is fine as it wouldn’t be fair to assign a skill-type which inadvertently nerfs shelter.

Why does everything have to be categorized? If they wanted to buff Shelter then they would’ve done so already, with or without categorization (although they specifically chose not to categorize Shelter). I don’t think Shelter is weak at all either, especially since it’s used and preferred in virtually all game modes except PvP (where it’s still an alternative to Purification).
I can’t see any reason to categorize Shelter as a consecration besides the fact that people want an easy buff to the skill since a lot of guardians use virtues and there’s almost no trade-off for picking the consecration trait.

Arcaedus.7290:

Well Shelter obviously can’t be contorted into a spirit weapon and having two heal skills assigned to one skill-type is completely unprecedented (it would also show favoritism) so that only leaves consecrations. With a bit of creativity one can see shelter as a consecration: You’re affecting the space around you to effectively block harm from coming to yourself/allies. We do currently have a skill like that and it’s called Sanctuary, but there are other ways to modify shelter so that it seems unique. One such way is adding functionality. For example: upon casting you still receive your 2s blocking bubble and heal (so the core of the skill is still there) and additionally create a field which benefits/buffs allies in some way that current consecrations do not. This would encapsulate the “consecration” theme quite well if you ask me.

Yeah, except Sanctuary actually does affect a space and Shelter doesn’t. Again, Shelter isn’t a “bubble”, Sanctuary is. They’re two very different abilities even though they’re both protective abilities.
Shelter (selfish block) is almost opposite in design to consecrations (ranged support). You can add whatever inappropriate clunk to Shelter, but it’d likely result in nerfs to Shelter’s true functionality and result in the skill being less defined in theme and gameplay (which is bad).

You guys saying Shelter should be a concentration are all wrong. It would totally be a meditation and Litany of Wrath would totally become a concentration that is an AoE area that would let allies heal for the damage they would do.

And for people wondering why others want every skill to have a type: completeness. I bet if you asked them if Anet should make a spirit weapon heal and elite and fill in the other holes among all of the classes, almost all of those people would want those holes filled.

Azoqu.8917:

You guys saying Shelter should be a concentration are all wrong. It would totally be a meditation and Litany of Wrath would totally become a concentration that is an AoE area that would let allies heal for the damage they would do.

And for people wondering why others want every skill to have a type: completeness. I bet if you asked them if Anet should make a spirit weapon heal and elite and fill in the other holes among all of the classes, almost all of those people would want those holes filled.

What is this almost all crap? Stop speaking for other people. When the heal is already good many people don’t want it changed. The same type of debate has already happened with Mesmers and their uncategorized heal. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Ether-feast/first#post5584121

And when the skill is bad, even with almost unanimous calls for change they don’t do it. https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/josh-what-about-mending-physc-skills/first In fact they just nerf the skill.

Physical skills were already the worst utilities on Warrior, yet they couldn’t even find a way to balance a 20% cd reduction to Mending. A skill many Warriors call terrible.

You are asking them to nerf shelter Stop it.

Here is how the categorization worked for the heal skills. Beyond the traits that now affected them

• Mirror: unchanged cd
• Ether renewal: received +3 seconds in cd (no extra healing to compensate)
• Healing Spring/Troll Unguent: unchanged cd
• We Heal As One: unchanged cd, gained a boon share with pet effect
• Consume Conditions: received +5 seconds in cd (no healing to compensate), and 5 stacks of vulnerability on use
• Receive the Light: unchanged cd
• Withdraw: received +3s cd, eventually 10% extra healing (for a 20% cd increase, so less hps than before), and the ability to also remove torment
• Hide in Shadows: unchanged cd, gained the ability to also remove confusion
• To the Limit: unchanged cd, potential healing reduced by a third, gives aoe 25 endurance.

By looking at this list you can tell how strong a heal was before HoT. Things that were unchanged or gained a single buff were lackluster before but now have good traits/runes. Things that received cd nerfs were great before, and have great traits (but without the traits they are worse than their preHot version).

Of the great heals, ether renewal/withdraw/consume conditions. Which way do you want Shelter to be changed? All got more cd, some got an added effect.

My guess is shelter would be increased to 40 seconds. Because a traited 20% of that would be 32, which matches the 2 extra seconds MoC gives you.

But since everyone runs Virtues why do you care?

Wrong.

Now you have a skill that is less useful unless you want to sacrifice the dps of unscathed contender.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Tldr; all uncategorized heals are worse off from being categorized. They were nerfed for the potential to be slightly better if you traited them.

Not true. Your example for necros is applicable but counterexamples lie in warrior’s “To the Limit!” and ranger’s “We Heal as One,” as well as Troll Unguent. Also your point on Withdraw’s healing value not being updated to compensate for extra cd is not a valid argument to support your tldr statement there. That failure can credited more to the dev team’s forgetfulness or neglect; as far as I’m aware they have not ever stated that Withdraw is fine and doesn’t need its heal updated since they announced that its healing would be updated during big skill/trait overhauls back in the July 26, 2015 patch.

The key lies in balancing the skill’s untraited version, traited version and previously uncategorized version. Do I think they can balance this in a desirable way? Absolutely, and you should too. I’ll admit that the balance team did not balance as well as they should have with certain skills but it’s not an impossible task to do for the remaining 3 heals. It is, however, more difficult for shelter since there aren’t a lot of options for an easy as well as balanced skill-type assignment.

Shelter is in a good spot but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t be in a better one. I never claimed that my suggestion was a solution. It’s part of the brainstorming process. You can be a part of it too if you want.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Why does everything have to be categorized? If they wanted to buff Shelter then they would’ve done so already, with or without categorization (although they specifically chose not to categorize Shelter). I don’t think Shelter is weak at all either, especially since it’s used and preferred in virtually all game modes except PvP (where it’s still an alternative to Purification).
I can’t see any reason to categorize Shelter as a consecration besides the fact that people want an easy buff to the skill since a lot of guardians use virtues and there’s almost no trade-off for picking the consecration trait.

ANet stated as part of that trait/skill overhaul that they wanted all heal/utility/elite skills to be more well-defined in their roles and thus embarked on a journey to assign a skill-type to all type-less skills. That journey remained incomplete for pretty good reasons; certain skills (like shelter) would either be OP if assigned a skill-type or would need to be redesigned to thematically fit the skill type which could essentially ruin the place that skill currently had in any of the game modes.

Assigning a skill-type is about defining the skill’s role, not about buffing or nerfing. Doing so isn’t necessary (as is evidenced by 3 still unassigned healing skills), but it would be a very interesting update for the skills assuming the devs can find a balanced way to assign the skill types.

Arcaedus.7290:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Tldr; all uncategorized heals are worse off from being categorized. They were nerfed for the potential to be slightly better if you traited them.

Not true. Your example for necros is applicable but counterexamples lie in warrior’s “To the Limit!” and ranger’s “We Heal as One,” as well as Troll Unguent. Also your point on Withdraw’s healing value not being updated to compensate for extra cd is not a valid argument to support your tldr statement there. That failure can credited more to the dev team’s forgetfulness or neglect; as far as I’m aware they have not ever stated that Withdraw is fine and doesn’t need its heal updated since they announced that its healing would be updated during big skill/trait overhauls back in the July 26, 2015 patch.

The key lies in balancing the skill’s untraited version, traited version and previously uncategorized version. Do I think they can balance this in a desirable way? Absolutely, and you should too. I’ll admit that the balance team did not balance as well as they should have with certain skills but it’s not an impossible task to do for the remaining 3 heals. It is, however, more difficult for shelter since there aren’t a lot of options for an easy as well as balanced skill-type assignment.

Shelter is in a good spot but that doesn’t mean it couldn’t be in a better one. I never claimed that my suggestion was a solution. It’s part of the brainstorming process. You can be a part of it too if you want.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Why does everything have to be categorized? If they wanted to buff Shelter then they would’ve done so already, with or without categorization (although they specifically chose not to categorize Shelter). I don’t think Shelter is weak at all either, especially since it’s used and preferred in virtually all game modes except PvP (where it’s still an alternative to Purification).
I can’t see any reason to categorize Shelter as a consecration besides the fact that people want an easy buff to the skill since a lot of guardians use virtues and there’s almost no trade-off for picking the consecration trait.

ANet stated as part of that trait/skill overhaul that they wanted all heal/utility/elite skills to be more well-defined in their roles and thus embarked on a journey to assign a skill-type to all type-less skills. That journey remained incomplete for pretty good reasons; certain skills (like shelter) would either be OP if assigned a skill-type or would need to be redesigned to thematically fit the skill type which could essentially ruin the place that skill currently had in any of the game modes.

Assigning a skill-type is about defining the skill’s role, not about buffing or nerfing. Doing so isn’t necessary (as is evidenced by 3 still unassigned healing skills), but it would be a very interesting update for the skills assuming the devs can find a balanced way to assign the skill types.

In my previous comment I was only thinking of certain examples. And have since corrected myself.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Ideas-for-Heals/first#post6315201

Heals that were frequently used, before HoT, received nerfs from categorization. And are now worse off unless traited. Perhaps the sole exception being troll unguent, but it is a heal over time.

Ether Renewal, Withdraw, Corrupt Conditions were nerfed.

As for Withdraw it received a tool tip change to reflect the supposed 10% healing increase almost a year later
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Withdraw&direction=next&oldid=1162418

And it still is less hps than before. The cd was increased by 20% but the healing only by 10%. Ergo a 10%(or 20% if the tooltip is wrong) nerf to hps on a class with 11k base health.

Shelter has all the usage characteristics of the heals that got buffed nerfed.

Daniel Handler.4816:

In my previous comment I was only thinking of the certain examples.
But I reassessed the all statement.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Ideas-for-Heals/first#post6315201

Now all heals that were good before HoT received nerfs from categorization. And are worse of unless traited.
Ether Renewal, Withdraw, Corrupt Conditions.

As for Withdraw it received a tool tip change to reflect the change almost a year latter
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Withdraw&direction=next&oldid=1162418

And it still is less dps than before. The cd was increased by 20% but the healing only by 10%. Ergo a 10%(or 20% if the tooltip is wrong) nerf to the hps of a heal skill on a class with 11k base health.

Shelter has all the usage characteristics of the heals that got buffed nerfed.

If that’s the case, then I would by default interpret this as the dev team implying that Withdraw is balanced (if not traited for) considering all of the other changes thief received after the trait overhaul patch. I can see your point though: withdraw could definitely be another example of a skill poorly adapted for skill categorization.

For your statement about shelter: If this was pre-HoT then I would absolutely agree with you. Now, if you compare shelter to both what we received (Purification) as well as what other classes received, it could stand to receive a few indirect buffs through skill categorization without coming across as OP or ruining its currently beloved place in the game.

To illustrate: If shelter maintained its current personal 2s block, healing value, cast time, 30s cd AND also had some sort of new functionality tacked on to it which would thematically categorize it as a consecration, I don’t think it would be OP. This of course all depends on what that functionality is. Realistic worst case scenario is that untraited, shelter becomes a 35s cd, and the new functionality just barely doesn’t make up for the additional 5s cd. Some builds would be screwed, others would be helped and new builds would arise. That’s just how change works though.

Daniel Handler.4816:

My guess is shelter would be increased to 40 seconds. Because a traited 20% of that would be 32, which matches the 2 extra seconds MoC gives you.

But since everyone runs Virtues why do you care?

Wrong.

Now you have a skill that is less useful unless you want to sacrifice the dps of unscathed contender.

I would totally expect that CD to become 40s . Also I am not in favor of making it a concentration but a meditation so running virtues would not affect it at all. Since it is a meditation maybe it would also lose the cast time so the untraited version still gains a “buff” even though the CD got nerfed. Also with the buff to resolve less people are running virtues since you do not need to in order to get your condition removal anymore.

And my idea for changing Litany of Wrath into a concentration that heals allies for the damage done in the area also helps with the healing aspect of Guardian. I really wish they would help out healing Guardians some more, mainly with buffs to staff but I’ll take anything fun.

Arcaedus.7290:

Daniel Handler.4816:

In my previous comment I was only thinking of the certain examples.
But I reassessed the all statement.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Ideas-for-Heals/first#post6315201

Now all heals that were good before HoT received nerfs from categorization. And are worse of unless traited.
Ether Renewal, Withdraw, Corrupt Conditions.

As for Withdraw it received a tool tip change to reflect the change almost a year latter
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Withdraw&direction=next&oldid=1162418

And it still is less dps than before. The cd was increased by 20% but the healing only by 10%. Ergo a 10%(or 20% if the tooltip is wrong) nerf to the hps of a heal skill on a class with 11k base health.

Shelter has all the usage characteristics of the heals that got buffed nerfed.

If that’s the case, then I would by default interpret this as the dev team implying that Withdraw is balanced (if not traited for) considering all of the other changes thief received after the trait overhaul patch. I can see your point though: withdraw could definitely be another example of a skill poorly adapted for skill categorization.

For your statement about shelter: If this was pre-HoT then I would absolutely agree with you. Now, if you compare shelter to both what we received (Purification) as well as what other classes received, it could stand to receive a few indirect buffs through skill categorization without coming across as OP or ruining its currently beloved place in the game.

To illustrate: If shelter maintained its current personal 2s block, healing value, cast time, 30s cd AND also had some sort of new functionality tacked on to it which would thematically categorize it as a consecration, I don’t think it would be OP. This of course all depends on what that functionality is. Realistic worst case scenario is that untraited, shelter becomes a 35s cd, and the new functionality just barely doesn’t make up for the additional 5s cd. Some builds would be screwed, others would be helped and new builds would arise. That’s just how change works though.

You have to remember that purification comes from an elite trait line. Shelter can be run in any build.

https://www.google.com/?ion=1&espv=2#q=shelter+treatment+consume+conditions+site:forum-en.guildwars2.com

Do not try to fix what isn’t broken. Or terrible things can occur.

Well… The topic kinda got lost in that Shelter-conversation.

Taking into account some of what’s been said before me, here are my ideas:

Litany of Wrath: Skill type changed from Meditation to Consecration. Now affects 5 players in a radius of either 180 or 240, with initial healing only on the player himself. The secondary effect pulses 1 times every second. Duration unchanged. Combo field: Light. Now only converts condition damage to healing, with a rate of 50%.
Litany of Wrath is crap and needs changes. It always felt to me more like a consecration than a meditation.

“Receive the Light”: Baseline healing to allies reduced by 25%. Now affects allies around you instead of in front of you. Radius: 400. Scaling to allies from Healing Power increased to 0,4 from 0,2.
“RtL” is terrible in WvW or PvP since you barely ever have time to target it correctly. This new functionality would make it tons better. And let’s face it, nobody uses it in PvE either.

Shelter: Is now a meditation. Base healing reduced by 20%. Cast time reduced to 1s. Cooldown reduced to 20s.
Guardian is missing a low cooldown healing skill. Shelter fits the bill. Not sure how this change would affect it. Needs some serious feedback.

Signet of Resolve: Passive effect extends to nearby allies as well. Radius: 300.
A good heal already but really gets trampled by the other skills anyway as it currently is. This would bring a support aspect to it.

I’m not gonna touch the trap-heal since I really like how it works. The selfishness and the risk/reward relation on it is great. I would however touch on its trait but that’s another matter for another thread.

As another note, I would really like guardian to be a support oriented profession at its base. That way, current and future ESpecs can be oriented to more selfish styles of gameplay. That is the basic reasoning behind most of my suggested ideas here and elsewhere as well.

Signet of Resolve is already at 35s

Ghotistyx.6942:

Signet of Resolve is already at 35s

Really? Well okey nvm that then. Was relying on information from the editor. I guess it hasn’t been updated there yet?

Arcaedus.7290:

Assigning a skill-type is about defining the skill’s role, not about buffing or nerfing. Doing so isn’t necessary (as is evidenced by 3 still unassigned healing skills), but it would be a very interesting update for the skills assuming the devs can find a balanced way to assign the skill types.

The ironic part is that changing shelter’s functionality so you can cram it into the consecration skill type would do the opposite of defining Shelter’s role.

Yannir.4132:

“Receive the Light”: Baseline healing to allies reduced by 25%. Now affects allies around you instead of in front of you. Radius: 400. Scaling to allies from Healing Power increased to 0,4 from 0,2.
“RtL” is terrible in WvW or PvP since you barely ever have time to target it correctly. This new functionality would make it tons better. And let’s face it, nobody uses it in PvE either.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Guardian_-_AH_Frontliner
I also don’t see the need to turn Receive the Light into Wash the Pain Away.

Yannir.4132:

Ghotistyx.6942:

Signet of Resolve is already at 35s

Really? Well okey nvm that then. Was relying on information from the editor. I guess it hasn’t been updated there yet?

GW2skills hasn’t been updated since the last big patch, so there will be a lot of changes you wouldn’t have seen.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Arcaedus.7290:

Assigning a skill-type is about defining the skill’s role, not about buffing or nerfing. Doing so isn’t necessary (as is evidenced by 3 still unassigned healing skills), but it would be a very interesting update for the skills assuming the devs can find a balanced way to assign the skill types.

The ironic part is that changing shelter’s functionality so you can cram it into the consecration skill type would do the opposite of defining Shelter’s role.

Except that it wouldn’t? I’m not sure what you think I was getting it, but my suggestion was this: keeping shelter’s function identical to what it is now, then adding functionality isn’t going to take anything away from the skill.

@ Yannir: I really like your idea of making Litany a consecration which opens shelter to meditations. The only problem I see is that this would involve devs going back on their original decision that made Litany a meditation (which is something I can’t remember them ever having done before).

They certainly had no qualms about removing and replacing tomes. I’d say the same could probably be done for Litany of Wrath if they felt like it.

Fashion Mage.3712:

Yannir.4132:

“Receive the Light”: Baseline healing to allies reduced by 25%. Now affects allies around you instead of in front of you. Radius: 400. Scaling to allies from Healing Power increased to 0,4 from 0,2.
“RtL” is terrible in WvW or PvP since you barely ever have time to target it correctly. This new functionality would make it tons better. And let’s face it, nobody uses it in PvE either.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Guardian_-_AH_Frontliner
I also don’t see the need to turn Receive the Light into Wash the Pain Away.

Yet the skill is never mentioned aside from the skillbar whereas Shelter is in several places in the description. That’s the skill that actually belongs to the build. You should read the build before posting.

It’s more a QoL change anyway, but I wouldn’t mind having an actual group healing skill like druids and eles do. Empower doesn’t really cut it. You could give a better suggestion instead of just being salty.

Yannir.4132:

Fashion Mage.3712:

Yannir.4132:

“Receive the Light”: Baseline healing to allies reduced by 25%. Now affects allies around you instead of in front of you. Radius: 400. Scaling to allies from Healing Power increased to 0,4 from 0,2.
“RtL” is terrible in WvW or PvP since you barely ever have time to target it correctly. This new functionality would make it tons better. And let’s face it, nobody uses it in PvE either.

http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Guardian_-_AH_Frontliner
I also don’t see the need to turn Receive the Light into Wash the Pain Away.

Yet the skill is never mentioned aside from the skillbar whereas Shelter is in several places in the description. That’s the skill that actually belongs to the build. You should read the build before posting.

It’s more a QoL change anyway, but I wouldn’t mind having an actual group healing skill like druids and eles do. Empower doesn’t really cut it. You could give a better suggestion instead of just being salty.

What the hell are you smoking.

“Receive the Light!” ? Shelter for more personal sustain

Is the first sentence after the variants skill bar.

And shelter is mentioned only one other place: “Use Shelter and Renewed Focus to escape damage.”

This is not “several times” in the description. This is once when they are both mentioned to describe variants. And shelter is then mentioned again to describe in general.

Read the build yourself.

RtL is common in WvW shout builds .

^

Yannir.4132:

It’s more a QoL change anyway, but I wouldn’t mind having an actual group healing skill like druids and eles do. Empower doesn’t really cut it. You could give a better suggestion instead of just being salty.

If I see another point-blank AoE healer in GW2, I’m going to scream.

Well, for starters, the staff could use a mini-rework. I don’t see why Empower needs to immobilize the user, have a huge channel time, and still only be point-blank 600 range while only providing a decent-ish heal.
Concerning heal skills specifically, I wouldn’t mind it if Litany just got removed to make way for a consecration heal, and Shelter became a meditation with appropriate nerfs so as to not imbalance it.

I must be missing something… when I don’t need to use DH and take Valor instead, I have a lot of fun with Litany traited with Smiter’s Boon and Monk’s Focus. It’s a huge burst heal (base heal plus monk’s focus is processed twice), AOE damage and removes 2 conditions with a 24 second recharge.

I think all Guardian heals besides Purification are lame anyway, but Litany is the only one that’s at least a little fun. Merely my opinion of course.