Guild Wars 2

Why is it multiplication >_>

It’s not just AH is inferior; it’s also a 30 point investment and valor isn’t that good. Besides Strength in Numbers, and the first minor trait, it’s honestly a huge joke in pve. You’re going to take crap like courageous return and might of the protector and lose out on radiant power? You’re going to sacrifice blinds? And there’s nothing good to go in the 2nd valor slot either.

swiftpaw.6397:

Why is it multiplication >_>

Cause damage modifiers are multiplicative not additive

CMF.5461:

[ … Very Long, Did Read! … ]

cheers. an overview of setup options is a good thing. some people cling to their statements without supplying background information, and in those cases, it often seems like such an overview is simply not in place.

Ok well then..

I’d like to point out that the ‘dead dps is no dps’ mantra that many people mindlessly chant can also be misleading. What if for example someone does 10 dps in 20 seconds but is dead for the last 5, and another person does 1 dps in 20 seconds but is alive the entire time. Who did more dps?

swiftpaw.6397:

I’d like to point out that the ‘dead dps is no dps’ mantra that many people mindlessly chant can also be misleading.

I don’t have a dog in this fight but don’t go saying people and mindlessly. This is simple math. X number of people in the group. If one of X is dead that means you now have 4 to do the work of 5.

Let’s not complicate things because there is more than just the build, eh? You can’t trait out stupidity or the player behind the keyboard.

Crapgame.6519:

swiftpaw.6397:

I’d like to point out that the ‘dead dps is no dps’ mantra that many people mindlessly chant can also be misleading.

his is simple math. X number of people in the group. If one of X is dead that means you now have 4 to do the work of 5.

If it’s simple math, then please address this:

Ok well then..

What if for example someone does 10 dps in 20 seconds but is dead for the last 5, and another person does 1 dps in 20 seconds but is alive the entire time. Who did more dps?

^I doubt that the difference in dps between a meta-build and a less optimal build (taking AH for example) is THAT big. Depending on the build and the skill of the player using it, I guess it equals out or at least almost equals out. And then there’s always the skill of the players you run with, which is a factor too. It might happen that they bring you into situations where you would die in a meta-build but could survive in a non-meta build; who knows.

I guess outside of speedruns it doesn’t really matter if you run meta or not, as long as your dps is still acceptable and you bring at least some useful things to the party.

Saturn.6591:

^I doubt that the difference in dps between a meta-build and a less optimal build (taking AH for example) is THAT big. Depending on the build and the skill of the player using it, I guess it equals out or at least almost equals out. And then there’s always the skill of the players you run with, which is a factor too. It might happen that they bring you into situations where you would die in a meta-build but could survive in a non-meta build; who knows.

I guess outside of speedruns it doesn’t really matter if you run meta or not, as long as your dps is still acceptable and you bring at least some useful things to the party.

When obal tested whirling wraths on the magecrusher, one meta guardian dealt the same amount of damage as five AH cleric guards.

hendo.1940:

When obal tested whirling wraths on the magecrusher, one meta guardian dealt the same amount of damage as five AH cleric guards.

True. But the guys was talking about suboptimal build with good DPS. Aka something like a AH build with full zerker gear/scholar Runes, not full Defensive, Cleric build which is the worst possible DPS of the game.

I prefer someone using a bit of defense in their build (just as much as they need to stay alive most of the game), then someone who go full DPS but can’t handle it. Of course i prefer even more someone with a Full DPS build that stay alive whatever happen, but not every people is playing the game enough to be that good. Everybody should make that their target and work toward that goal, but you need to have a build that follow you current skill in the game and with your current profession.

In brief I would just like to add for the OP’s sake that the core point of discussion here is the definition of a “viable” build.

If you consider “viable” everything that you can play (literally), then there will be a lot of options. In this case, yes, you can play AH in dungeons/fractals.

If you consider “viable” only the highest DPS (still with good support/survival), then you have very limited alternatives and AH is not one of them.

If you consider “viable” a build that will allow you to perform still very well in terms of DPS output and support but not the highest DPS build; then my answer is to play with a Hammer (with an appropriate build) and in case of desperate need: use Knight stats. And no, AH is not viable in this category.

Please check this link for the builds: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guide-DPS-Guardian-for-PVE/page/3#post3422624

Just my two cents.

J Eberle.9312:

Crapgame.6519:

swiftpaw.6397:

I’d like to point out that the ‘dead dps is no dps’ mantra that many people mindlessly chant can also be misleading.

his is simple math. X number of people in the group. If one of X is dead that means you now have 4 to do the work of 5.

If it’s simple math, then please address this:

Ok well then..

What if for example someone does 10 dps in 20 seconds but is dead for the last 5, and another person does 1 dps in 20 seconds but is alive the entire time. Who did more dps?

We don’t work in fictional numbers. The simple fact is if one person is dead 4 people have to make up the difference either by extra DPS or by extending the duration of the fight. Why is that so hard to understand?

PvE in this game isn’t about a certain spec or stat score. It is more about knowing the encounter. Some people do optimize their groups for the so called speed runs. We all know that some stats are changing because we, the player base, have made use of something that they didn’t actually intend. Hence the zerk / crit incoming changes.

Run AH. I don’ care. I don’t ask people when I do dungeons. My only question is:

Have you been in here before…

And that they can even tell a lie, agreed?

Saturn.6591:

^I doubt that the difference in dps between a meta-build and a less optimal build (taking AH for example) is THAT big. Depending on the build and the skill of the player using it, I guess it equals out or at least almost equals out. And then there’s always the skill of the players you run with, which is a factor too. It might happen that they bring you into situations where you would die in a meta-build but could survive in a non-meta build; who knows.

I guess outside of speedruns it doesn’t really matter if you run meta or not, as long as your dps is still acceptable and you bring at least some useful things to the party.

From Dubs calculations months ago, the difference is THAT big and is sometimes even bigger.

Crapgame.6519:

J Eberle.9312:

Crapgame.6519:

swiftpaw.6397:

I’d like to point out that the ‘dead dps is no dps’ mantra that many people mindlessly chant can also be misleading.

his is simple math. X number of people in the group. If one of X is dead that means you now have 4 to do the work of 5.

If it’s simple math, then please address this:

Ok well then..

What if for example someone does 10 dps in 20 seconds but is dead for the last 5, and another person does 1 dps in 20 seconds but is alive the entire time. Who did more dps?

We don’t work in fictional numbers. The simple fact is if one person is dead 4 people have to make up the difference either by extra DPS or by extending the duration of the fight. Why is that so hard to understand?

PvE in this game isn’t about a certain spec or stat score. It is more about knowing the encounter. Some people do optimize their groups for the so called speed runs. We all know that some stats are changing because we, the player base, have made use of something that they didn’t actually intend. Hence the zerk / crit incoming changes.

Run AH. I don’ care. I don’t ask people when I do dungeons. My only question is:

Have you been in here before…

And that they can even tell a lie, agreed?

So basically what I’m gathering from this big wall of text is no, you cannot mathematically explain the question posed to you. You don’t want to deal with ‘fictional numbers’ when you yourself are now working with a fictional situation in which 1 person is dead and 4 alive.

Ok good day to you sir, enjoy mediocrity.

Also I had a pretty good lol at ‘zerk not being intended’.

J Eberle.9312:

Crapgame.6519:

J Eberle.9312:

Crapgame.6519:

swiftpaw.6397:

I’d like to point out that the ‘dead dps is no dps’ mantra that many people mindlessly chant can also be misleading.

his is simple math. X number of people in the group. If one of X is dead that means you now have 4 to do the work of 5.

If it’s simple math, then please address this:

Ok well then..

What if for example someone does 10 dps in 20 seconds but is dead for the last 5, and another person does 1 dps in 20 seconds but is alive the entire time. Who did more dps?

We don’t work in fictional numbers. The simple fact is if one person is dead 4 people have to make up the difference either by extra DPS or by extending the duration of the fight. Why is that so hard to understand?

PvE in this game isn’t about a certain spec or stat score. It is more about knowing the encounter. Some people do optimize their groups for the so called speed runs. We all know that some stats are changing because we, the player base, have made use of something that they didn’t actually intend. Hence the zerk / crit incoming changes.

Run AH. I don’ care. I don’t ask people when I do dungeons. My only question is:

Have you been in here before…

And that they can even tell a lie, agreed?

So basically what I’m gathering from this big wall of text is no, you cannot mathematically explain the question posed to you. You don’t want to deal with ‘fictional numbers’ when you yourself are now working with a fictional situation in which 1 person is dead and 4 alive.

Ok good day to you sir, enjoy mediocrity.

Or you can’t do simple math?

Factual information because there is a set number of people that entered the dungeon. Factual information because any number of them can die. Factual information because those that are left alive now have to finish the factual encounter.

I’m not sure what planet you are on but maybe the math is different. But here on earth 1 + 1 = 2. 5 – 1 = 4. See the pattern or do we need to get Dora the Explorer involved or maybe the muppet’s ? Then there is time. Obviously 5 will finish quicker than 4 or 3 or 2, etc. Thus the comment dead people don’t DPS.

Note the OP asked: “I’m looking to run a build for PvE solo and dungeon PvE that is pretty durable but can still dish out enough damage to not be worthless.”

Do you see optimal in that sentence?

Crapgame.6519:

Note the OP asked: “I’m looking to run a build for PvE solo and dungeon PvE that is pretty durable but can still dish out enough damage to not be worthless.”

Do you see optimal in that sentence?

We also don’t see “complete kitten”. He came to the forum seeking good advice. Not Crapgame/obetena/aste/kyubi approved advice

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Crapgame.6519:

Note the OP asked: “I’m looking to run a build for PvE solo and dungeon PvE that is pretty durable but can still dish out enough damage to not be worthless.”

Do you see optimal in that sentence?

We also don’t see “complete kitten”. He came to the forum seeking good advice. Not Crapgame/obetena/aste/kyubi approved advice

Not sure what you actually read there buddy but maybe take a step back and re-read?

Please enlighten me to my so-called bad or approved advise? If you replay saying simple math then we agree. Dead people don’t bring anything to the table and leave more work for their team mates (unless you are soloing something). This is actually common sense. I’m pretty sure I said I don’t care about the traits used.

Anything else you would like to talk about? Want a jelly roll or maybe me to send you an un-identified dye?

If a party member deals 10k dps over 15 seconds and is dead for the last 5 seconds of a fight and another party member is dealing 2k dps over 20 seconds, being alive all time, who dealt more damage?

To make it clear for you: someone using a proper build could die after 5 seconds on any encounter in the game and would have still contributed a lot more than someone in random stuff, being alive all time.

J Eberle.9312:

We have already discussed why the OP may have mentioned AH, …..

And that’s the problem with how you have responded to him … you didn’t take his questions at face value. You just picked up the fact he wasn’t talking about meta, made some assumption that lead you to believe it was a great opportunity to sell it (like you do for everyone that asks for build advice), then got uppity when I challenged the idea there is life outside of playing meta. Let me quote myself to offer some advice when thinking of how to respond to people’s requests:

“Maybe people should stop assuming that every request for advice is a plea to ‘stop being bad players’.”

Crapgame.6519:

J Eberle.9312:

Crapgame.6519:

J Eberle.9312:

Crapgame.6519:

swiftpaw.6397:

I’d like to point out that the ‘dead dps is no dps’ mantra that many people mindlessly chant can also be misleading.

his is simple math. X number of people in the group. If one of X is dead that means you now have 4 to do the work of 5.

If it’s simple math, then please address this:

Ok well then..

What if for example someone does 10 dps in 20 seconds but is dead for the last 5, and another person does 1 dps in 20 seconds but is alive the entire time. Who did more dps?

We don’t work in fictional numbers. The simple fact is if one person is dead 4 people have to make up the difference either by extra DPS or by extending the duration of the fight. Why is that so hard to understand?

PvE in this game isn’t about a certain spec or stat score. It is more about knowing the encounter. Some people do optimize their groups for the so called speed runs. We all know that some stats are changing because we, the player base, have made use of something that they didn’t actually intend. Hence the zerk / crit incoming changes.

Run AH. I don’ care. I don’t ask people when I do dungeons. My only question is:

Have you been in here before…

And that they can even tell a lie, agreed?

So basically what I’m gathering from this big wall of text is no, you cannot mathematically explain the question posed to you. You don’t want to deal with ‘fictional numbers’ when you yourself are now working with a fictional situation in which 1 person is dead and 4 alive.

Ok good day to you sir, enjoy mediocrity.

Or you can’t do simple math?

Factual information because there is a set number of people that entered the dungeon. Factual information because any number of them can die. Factual information because those that are left alive now have to finish the factual encounter.

I’m not sure what planet you are on but maybe the math is different. But here on earth 1 + 1 = 2. 5 – 1 = 4. See the pattern or do we need to get Dora the Explorer involved or maybe the muppet’s ? Then there is time. Obviously 5 will finish quicker than 4 or 3 or 2, etc. Thus the comment dead people don’t DPS.

Note the OP asked: “I’m looking to run a build for PvE solo and dungeon PvE that is pretty durable but can still dish out enough damage to not be worthless.”

Do you see optimal in that sentence?

Firstly, I suggested a build that is a mix of dps and support which is what he is after.

Secondly. You still are avoiding the question because you don’t wish to entertain the scary idea that the people doing more dps, even when downed or dead for a % of the fight still contribute more than those who never go down and are in full pvt.

Thirdly, you are becoming aggressive and angry at me when really you should just be angry at the fact you cannot address the question. I’d be angry too if I was wrong.

And no Obtena, I recommended a build and it just happened to meta, probably because it’s a good build. You recommended a build and I said AH is still useless, not because it’s not meta but because AH is actually useless in dungeons. You then decided to argue semantics instead. I’m not really buying into your fear of people ‘selling meta’. Speaking of selling though, what am I getting for payment?

(That’s rhetorical don’t answer that.)

10k dps? Over 15 seconds or more? How?

And I still doubt that someone in full zerker gear and with 10/30/30/0/0 for example (taking AH) does 5 times less dps than someone in full zerker and a meta-build. Even with some pieces of knights-armor… I really can’t believe the difference in sustained dps is that huge. OF COURSE it will be if you take cleric or even magi gear and possibly all blues and trait like 0/0/30/20/20. But I doubt that this is what was meant with “taking AH”.

J Eberle.9312:

Crapgame.6519:

J Eberle.9312:

Crapgame.6519:

J Eberle.9312:

Crapgame.6519:

swiftpaw.6397:

I’d like to point out that the ‘dead dps is no dps’ mantra that many people mindlessly chant can also be misleading.

his is simple math. X number of people in the group. If one of X is dead that means you now have 4 to do the work of 5.

If it’s simple math, then please address this:

Ok well then..

What if for example someone does 10 dps in 20 seconds but is dead for the last 5, and another person does 1 dps in 20 seconds but is alive the entire time. Who did more dps?

We don’t work in fictional numbers. The simple fact is if one person is dead 4 people have to make up the difference either by extra DPS or by extending the duration of the fight. Why is that so hard to understand?

PvE in this game isn’t about a certain spec or stat score. It is more about knowing the encounter. Some people do optimize their groups for the so called speed runs. We all know that some stats are changing because we, the player base, have made use of something that they didn’t actually intend. Hence the zerk / crit incoming changes.

Run AH. I don’ care. I don’t ask people when I do dungeons. My only question is:

Have you been in here before…

And that they can even tell a lie, agreed?

So basically what I’m gathering from this big wall of text is no, you cannot mathematically explain the question posed to you. You don’t want to deal with ‘fictional numbers’ when you yourself are now working with a fictional situation in which 1 person is dead and 4 alive.

Ok good day to you sir, enjoy mediocrity.

Or you can’t do simple math?

Factual information because there is a set number of people that entered the dungeon. Factual information because any number of them can die. Factual information because those that are left alive now have to finish the factual encounter.

I’m not sure what planet you are on but maybe the math is different. But here on earth 1 + 1 = 2. 5 – 1 = 4. See the pattern or do we need to get Dora the Explorer involved or maybe the muppet’s ? Then there is time. Obviously 5 will finish quicker than 4 or 3 or 2, etc. Thus the comment dead people don’t DPS.

Note the OP asked: “I’m looking to run a build for PvE solo and dungeon PvE that is pretty durable but can still dish out enough damage to not be worthless.”

Do you see optimal in that sentence?

Firstly, I suggested a build that is a mix of dps and support which is what he is after.

Secondly. You still are avoiding the question because you don’t wish to entertain the scary idea that the people doing more dps, even when downed or dead for a % of the fight still contribute more than those who never go down and are in full pvt.

Thirdly, you are becoming aggressive and angry at me when really you should just be angry at the fact you cannot address the question. I’d be angry too if I was wrong.

And no Obtena, I recommended a build and it just happened to meta, probably because it’s a good build. You recommended a build and I said it was bad, because it happens to be bad, not because it’s not meta. I’m not really buying into your fear of people ‘selling meta’. Speaking of selling though, what am I getting for payment?

(That’s rhetorical don’t answer that.)

Maybe you should go back and re-read what I typed. I didn’t list a build (it matters not to me what you bring). I’m simply stating that someone in a downed state doesn’t contribute to dps.

Larger scale, similar concept though – how did that Tequatl or Marionette go when people are down?

If you want, I’ll send you a un-identified dye too since I’m so aggressive or wrong. Neither is right or wrong we just see things a bit different. /hug

J Eberle.9312:

And no Obtena, I recommended a build and it just happened to meta, probably because it’s a good build.

It ‘s certainly a good build but the OP didn’t ask for that. He asked if AH was viable and for a comparable build. Answering with the meta doesn’t address either of those things because meta isn’t comparable to an AH build for the particular features he was looking for.

Meta is good but, it’s not the ‘do everything for everyone’ build people want to envision it to. Maybe if the meta club people spent more time fostering and paying attention to how people want to play the game, then those players would get better faster on their own terms.

Obtena.7952:

J Eberle.9312:

And no Obtena, I recommended a build and it just happened to meta, probably because it’s a good build.

It ‘s certainly a good build but the OP didn’t ask for that. He asked if AH was viable and for a comparable build. Answering with the meta doesn’t address either of those things because meta isn’t comparable to an AH build for the particular features he was looking for.

Meta is good but, it’s not the ‘do everything for everyone’ build people want to envision it to. Maybe if the meta club people spent more time fostering and paying attention to how people actually play the game, then those players would get better faster on their own terms.

Again. Look at the OP.

Tolmos.8395:

So do you guys know of any still viable altruistic healing builds for solo/dungeon PvE, or if not, do you know something comparable that you might suggest? Thanks!

He doesn’t know what he wants. He doesn’t even know if AH is viable anymore, if it’s not then he wants a recommendation to something that will dish out good dps and support which is exactly the builds I supplied to him. They happen to be meta? Oh no. The sky is falling.

Wow….this is still going on? My math response was kind of tongue and cheek honestly.

I advocate the meta, it does what it is supposed to do.

Additionally I recognize that not all players are capable or like to run the meta, so I understand when people look for alternatives, and don’t question them. Instead I try to help with as little bias as possible.

Lastly, I spend more time on spread sheets and build calculators than I do in the game lately, because I like to theory craft and maybe find the “new” meta or something to that effect. So new ideas are welcome to me and problem sets that need an out of the box answer are fun to figure out.

All in all, I think we have exhausted this thread and are in need of a lock

J Eberle.9312:

He doesn’t know what he wants.

He knows he want’s something comparable to a build that gives the same durability and decent damage an AH build gives. Meta doesn’t deliver that without the skilled player behind the keyboard playing it.

CMF.5461:

Additionally I recognize that not all players are capable or like to run the meta, so I understand when people look for alternatives, and don’t question them. Instead I try to help with as little bias as possible.

^^ This.

Obtena.7952:

J Eberle.9312:

He doesn’t know what he wants.

He knows he want’s something comparable to a build that gives the same durability and decent damage an AH build gives. Meta doesn’t deliver that without the skilled player behind the keyboard playing it.

CMF.5461:

Additionally I recognize that not all players are capable or like to run the meta, so I understand when people look for alternatives, and don’t question them. Instead I try to help with as little bias as possible.

^^ This.

It really does not take a skilled player to run meta, and if you were reading I recommended a knight’s gear set for beginners. Whatever I’m just repeating myself. People say don’t bother, he’s a troll.. but I just feel bad for noobs given bad advice.

If you want comparable survivability to AH. Then you should go 10/25/0/25/10. Its not meta but it gives you a hp sponge which is more than enough to keep you alive plus it has more supportive traits. AH is bad, stay away from that trait and the selfish traitline it resides in.

Ideally you should just learn to play with 10/25/0/10/25 or another meta variant. You will become a much better player because of it.

ps. Im enjoying reading crapgame ignore the question about dps though. I guess noone likes being wrong even when a mathematical example is given to them to prove how silly they are being.

spoj.9672:

If you want comparable survivability to AH. Then you should go 10/25/0/25/10. Its not meta but it gives you a hp sponge which is more than enough to keep you alive plus it has more supportive traits. AH is bad, stay away from that trait and the selfish traitline it resides in.

Ideally you should just learn to play with 10/25/0/10/25 or another meta variant. You will become a much better player because of it.

ps. Im enjoying reading crapgame ignore the question about dps though. I guess noone likes being wrong even when a mathematical example is given to them to prove how silly they are being.

Like a little kid poking a stick at a dog behind a fence. I’m not ignoring you or your hypothetical question. 5 enter, 1 or more dies, dead people don’t dps. Do we need pretty graphs, charts, or anything else to help in the disagreement? In all fairness maybe we are talking apples to oranges because dps is Damage Per Second…

I believe Swift’s comment was something like"

“What if for example someone does 10 dps in 20 seconds but is dead for the last 5, and another person does 1 dps in 20 seconds but is alive the entire time. Who did more dps?”

Let us change this a bit because we all know even us keyboard turners do more than 1 DPS. Anyway, 10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (15 seconds) = 150. Second player did 10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (20 seconds) = 200. I don’t know, looks like the second fella did more damage over time because he or she was alive longer. But barring me changing it – math is funny that way – its a moot point because we really don’t have a reliable way of knowing how much each party member contributes. We just know, or assume to know, that when one or more people dye the fight will last longer because whatever amount of damage the others did is no longer present.

Again, it doesn’t matter to me what trait line up you bring. I said I don’t have a dog in the fight. I do, however, believe that we don’t deal damage when dead. Tell you what, I’ll send you a dye too.

Crapgame.6519:

spoj.9672:

If you want comparable survivability to AH. Then you should go 10/25/0/25/10. Its not meta but it gives you a hp sponge which is more than enough to keep you alive plus it has more supportive traits. AH is bad, stay away from that trait and the selfish traitline it resides in.

Ideally you should just learn to play with 10/25/0/10/25 or another meta variant. You will become a much better player because of it.

ps. Im enjoying reading crapgame ignore the question about dps though. I guess noone likes being wrong even when a mathematical example is given to them to prove how silly they are being.

Like a little kid poking a stick at a dog behind a fence. I’m not ignoring you or your hypothetical question. 5 enter, 1 or more dies, dead people don’t dps. Do we need pretty graphs, charts, or anything else to help in the disagreement? In all fairness maybe we are talking apples to oranges because dps is Damage Per Second…

I believe Swift’s comment was something like"

“What if for example someone does 10 dps in 20 seconds but is dead for the last 5, and another person does 1 dps in 20 seconds but is alive the entire time. Who did more dps?”

Let us change this a bit because we all know even us keyboard turners do more than 1 DPS. Anyway, 10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (15 seconds) = 150. Second player did 10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (20 seconds) = 200. I don’t know, looks like the second fella did more damage over time because he or she was alive longer. But barring me changing it – math is funny that way – its a moot point because we really don’t have a reliable way of knowing how much each party member contributes. We just know, or assume to know, that when one or more people dye the fight will last longer because whatever amount of damage the others did is no longer present.

Again, it doesn’t matter to me what trait line up you bring. I said I don’t have a dog in the fight. I do, however, believe that we don’t deal damage when dead. Tell you what, I’ll send you a dye too.

Nice that you completely ignored that the alive person in this example is using a bad build and so has less than 10% of the dps as the person who died. Going back to your example seeing as you completely missed our point.

10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (15 seconds) = 150. Second player did 2 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (20 seconds) = 40. So yeah seems like the dead player did more.

J Eberle.9312:

Secondly. You still are avoiding the question because you don’t wish to entertain the scary idea that the people doing more dps, even when downed or dead for a % of the fight still contribute more than those who never go down and are in full pvt.

Oh, I’m willing to entertain the idea. It isn’t scare at all but I am also not rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. I think I’ve been pretty clear it is also a time or duration issue. I’ll go so far has to say two people playing the same class, trait line up, and armor will have different numbers because of player skill.

We don’t have a reliable unit of measurement in the game which is displayed, agreed? We know it is damage per second but in this game it isn’t so readily visible. So we mostly go by theory crafting, build calculators, and voodoo dolls.

Check your in-game mails. I’ve sent a few dyes out – good luck

spoj.9672:

Crapgame.6519:

spoj.9672:

If you want comparable survivability to AH. Then you should go 10/25/0/25/10. Its not meta but it gives you a hp sponge which is more than enough to keep you alive plus it has more supportive traits. AH is bad, stay away from that trait and the selfish traitline it resides in.

Ideally you should just learn to play with 10/25/0/10/25 or another meta variant. You will become a much better player because of it.

ps. Im enjoying reading crapgame ignore the question about dps though. I guess noone likes being wrong even when a mathematical example is given to them to prove how silly they are being.

Like a little kid poking a stick at a dog behind a fence. I’m not ignoring you or your hypothetical question. 5 enter, 1 or more dies, dead people don’t dps. Do we need pretty graphs, charts, or anything else to help in the disagreement? In all fairness maybe we are talking apples to oranges because dps is Damage Per Second…

I believe Swift’s comment was something like"

“What if for example someone does 10 dps in 20 seconds but is dead for the last 5, and another person does 1 dps in 20 seconds but is alive the entire time. Who did more dps?”

Let us change this a bit because we all know even us keyboard turners do more than 1 DPS. Anyway, 10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (15 seconds) = 150. Second player did 10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (20 seconds) = 200. I don’t know, looks like the second fella did more damage over time because he or she was alive longer. But barring me changing it – math is funny that way – its a moot point because we really don’t have a reliable way of knowing how much each party member contributes. We just know, or assume to know, that when one or more people dye the fight will last longer because whatever amount of damage the others did is no longer present.

Again, it doesn’t matter to me what trait line up you bring. I said I don’t have a dog in the fight. I do, however, believe that we don’t deal damage when dead. Tell you what, I’ll send you a dye too.

Nice that you completely ignored that the alive person in this example is using a bad build and so has less than 10% of the dps as the person who died. Going back to your example seeing as you completely missed our point.

10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (15 seconds) = 150. Second player did 2 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (20 seconds) = 40. So yeah seems like the dead player did more.

Who does 2 dps? Its hypothetical data. If you want to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic go ahead but the ship is still going to sink? Now change the duration of the engagement to 90 seconds or longer.

Crapgame.6519:

spoj.9672:

Crapgame.6519:

spoj.9672:

If you want comparable survivability to AH. Then you should go 10/25/0/25/10. Its not meta but it gives you a hp sponge which is more than enough to keep you alive plus it has more supportive traits. AH is bad, stay away from that trait and the selfish traitline it resides in.

Ideally you should just learn to play with 10/25/0/10/25 or another meta variant. You will become a much better player because of it.

ps. Im enjoying reading crapgame ignore the question about dps though. I guess noone likes being wrong even when a mathematical example is given to them to prove how silly they are being.

Like a little kid poking a stick at a dog behind a fence. I’m not ignoring you or your hypothetical question. 5 enter, 1 or more dies, dead people don’t dps. Do we need pretty graphs, charts, or anything else to help in the disagreement? In all fairness maybe we are talking apples to oranges because dps is Damage Per Second…

I believe Swift’s comment was something like"

“What if for example someone does 10 dps in 20 seconds but is dead for the last 5, and another person does 1 dps in 20 seconds but is alive the entire time. Who did more dps?”

Let us change this a bit because we all know even us keyboard turners do more than 1 DPS. Anyway, 10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (15 seconds) = 150. Second player did 10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (20 seconds) = 200. I don’t know, looks like the second fella did more damage over time because he or she was alive longer. But barring me changing it – math is funny that way – its a moot point because we really don’t have a reliable way of knowing how much each party member contributes. We just know, or assume to know, that when one or more people dye the fight will last longer because whatever amount of damage the others did is no longer present.

Again, it doesn’t matter to me what trait line up you bring. I said I don’t have a dog in the fight. I do, however, believe that we don’t deal damage when dead. Tell you what, I’ll send you a dye too.

Nice that you completely ignored that the alive person in this example is using a bad build and so has less than 10% of the dps as the person who died. Going back to your example seeing as you completely missed our point.

10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (15 seconds) = 150. Second player did 2 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (20 seconds) = 40. So yeah seems like the dead player did more.

Who does 2 dps? Its hypothetical data. If you want to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic go ahead but the ship is still going to sink? Now change the duration of the engagement to 90 seconds or longer.

Its been proven that meta builds do over 50% more damage than various other crap builds. Are you intentionally being dense?

spoj.9672:

Crapgame.6519:

spoj.9672:

Crapgame.6519:

spoj.9672:

If you want comparable survivability to AH. Then you should go 10/25/0/25/10. Its not meta but it gives you a hp sponge which is more than enough to keep you alive plus it has more supportive traits. AH is bad, stay away from that trait and the selfish traitline it resides in.

Ideally you should just learn to play with 10/25/0/10/25 or another meta variant. You will become a much better player because of it.

ps. Im enjoying reading crapgame ignore the question about dps though. I guess noone likes being wrong even when a mathematical example is given to them to prove how silly they are being.

Like a little kid poking a stick at a dog behind a fence. I’m not ignoring you or your hypothetical question. 5 enter, 1 or more dies, dead people don’t dps. Do we need pretty graphs, charts, or anything else to help in the disagreement? In all fairness maybe we are talking apples to oranges because dps is Damage Per Second…

I believe Swift’s comment was something like"

“What if for example someone does 10 dps in 20 seconds but is dead for the last 5, and another person does 1 dps in 20 seconds but is alive the entire time. Who did more dps?”

Let us change this a bit because we all know even us keyboard turners do more than 1 DPS. Anyway, 10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (15 seconds) = 150. Second player did 10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (20 seconds) = 200. I don’t know, looks like the second fella did more damage over time because he or she was alive longer. But barring me changing it – math is funny that way – its a moot point because we really don’t have a reliable way of knowing how much each party member contributes. We just know, or assume to know, that when one or more people dye the fight will last longer because whatever amount of damage the others did is no longer present.

Again, it doesn’t matter to me what trait line up you bring. I said I don’t have a dog in the fight. I do, however, believe that we don’t deal damage when dead. Tell you what, I’ll send you a dye too.

Nice that you completely ignored that the alive person in this example is using a bad build and so has less than 10% of the dps as the person who died. Going back to your example seeing as you completely missed our point.

10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (15 seconds) = 150. Second player did 2 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (20 seconds) = 40. So yeah seems like the dead player did more.

Who does 2 dps? Its hypothetical data. If you want to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic go ahead but the ship is still going to sink? Now change the duration of the engagement to 90 seconds or longer.

Its been proven that meta builds do over 50% more damage than various other crap builds. Are you intentionally being dense?

Your math above is greater than 50% and you still didn’t address the duration part. Maybe we should party up in game and give this a test? I’ll be the one to live the duration of the fight and you can be the DPS who dies 15 seconds in? Or I can die and you survive. Or we can rock, paper, scissor it.

Or, we can both do the right thing and just end the conversation. We agree to disagree.

I say you guys fight IRL

Crapgame.6519:

Check your in-game mails. I’ve sent a few dyes out – good luck

The person who received the dyes was confused but I think he’s happy he got free stuff.

@ Cat, the fite irl should be in a tub full of jelly. I’d pay to watch that.

Crapgame.6519:

spoj.9672:

Crapgame.6519:

spoj.9672:

Crapgame.6519:

spoj.9672:

If you want comparable survivability to AH. Then you should go 10/25/0/25/10. Its not meta but it gives you a hp sponge which is more than enough to keep you alive plus it has more supportive traits. AH is bad, stay away from that trait and the selfish traitline it resides in.

Ideally you should just learn to play with 10/25/0/10/25 or another meta variant. You will become a much better player because of it.

ps. Im enjoying reading crapgame ignore the question about dps though. I guess noone likes being wrong even when a mathematical example is given to them to prove how silly they are being.

Like a little kid poking a stick at a dog behind a fence. I’m not ignoring you or your hypothetical question. 5 enter, 1 or more dies, dead people don’t dps. Do we need pretty graphs, charts, or anything else to help in the disagreement? In all fairness maybe we are talking apples to oranges because dps is Damage Per Second…

I believe Swift’s comment was something like"

“What if for example someone does 10 dps in 20 seconds but is dead for the last 5, and another person does 1 dps in 20 seconds but is alive the entire time. Who did more dps?”

Let us change this a bit because we all know even us keyboard turners do more than 1 DPS. Anyway, 10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (15 seconds) = 150. Second player did 10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (20 seconds) = 200. I don’t know, looks like the second fella did more damage over time because he or she was alive longer. But barring me changing it – math is funny that way – its a moot point because we really don’t have a reliable way of knowing how much each party member contributes. We just know, or assume to know, that when one or more people dye the fight will last longer because whatever amount of damage the others did is no longer present.

Again, it doesn’t matter to me what trait line up you bring. I said I don’t have a dog in the fight. I do, however, believe that we don’t deal damage when dead. Tell you what, I’ll send you a dye too.

Nice that you completely ignored that the alive person in this example is using a bad build and so has less than 10% of the dps as the person who died. Going back to your example seeing as you completely missed our point.

10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (15 seconds) = 150. Second player did 2 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (20 seconds) = 40. So yeah seems like the dead player did more.

Who does 2 dps? Its hypothetical data. If you want to rearrange the deck chairs on the Titanic go ahead but the ship is still going to sink? Now change the duration of the engagement to 90 seconds or longer.

Its been proven that meta builds do over 50% more damage than various other crap builds. Are you intentionally being dense?

Your math above is greater than 50% and you still didn’t address the duration part. Maybe we should party up in game and give this a test? I’ll be the one to live the duration of the fight and you can be the DPS who dies 15 seconds in? Or I can die and you survive. Or we can rock, paper, scissor it.

Or, we can both do the right thing and just end the conversation. We agree to disagree.

With 50% difference the dead person still does more.

10 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (15 seconds) = 150. Second player did 5 DPS (damage per second) * time alive (20 seconds) = 100.

Disagreeing with maths? This is amusing. Please keep going.

sigh

If you want to use math, then use numbers based on facts and not things arbitrarily made up.

Here is a list of potential damage modifiers based on trait points and power, considering both are wearing full zerker with scholars and wielding the greatsword and doing a whirling wrath, not counting bolts. (We can do sword too, but figured I would do the damage based off of whirling wrath cause people like to see that).

I also gave some leeway to the builds that would use empowering might and simulated 5 stacks of might on those ones specifically when totaling the power.

Keep in mind this does not take into account crit chance or sustained dps and real fight conditions, so these are just for the numbers and not to based your actual game play on.

The worst build that I mashed together did about 60% of the damage of the most optimal build a difference of 30% loss in damage (just for whirling wrath…not sustained dps or combat effectiveness).

So theoretically if a sucky build is 30% less effective than an optimal build, and an optimal build will do 10 “dps”, then a sub optimal build should do 6 “dps” or 60% of 10.

If the optimal build dies in 15 seconds, then in order for the sub-optimal build to out damage the optimal build they have to be alive and continue fighting for a total of 25 seconds.

The “best” AH build I have listed does 76% of the optimal damaging build with a difference of 24%.

So same scenario 76% of 10 = 7.6
10*15=150 damage done in 15 seconds
7.6*20=152 damage done in 20 seconds

You can pick and choose the duration of fight and length of time alive, to skew results any which way you please.

TLDR:
The point is/was that the meta is not “the most damaging” but it retains an optimal amount of damage while providing support and maintains, just enough survivability to finish most encounters.

If you find that survivability is not enough for your specific playstyle/group/reaction time, then adjust accordingly, but understand what you are sacrificing in team play in order to gain in self play.

crapgame, please don’t respond anymore if spoj retorts one more time, I won’t and its not productive for any of us. I probably shouldn’t have even put forth the effort I did in this post and let it die, but I was tired of the made up numbers

You guys seem upset. Maybe you should take a step back.

And in a real situation the difference is more than 30%. Noone who builds AH tries to get that close to meta. Anyway I wasnt even referring specifically to AH. I was comparing general subpar builds to meta. And that the “dead dps is no dps” mantra is a really stupid thing to say because meta builds can die early and still do more overall damage than the “play how you want” builds.

There are many reasons why AH builds are so bad:
1) Useless trait line, the toughness you gain from going 30 deep doesn’t do a whole lot unless you also gear for toughness. Gearing AND traiting for toughness is a huge dps loss that isn’t really affordable if you still want to deal your “share” of damage. The 5/15/25 traits are pretty bad compared to traits available in other lines. The choices in that line are also similarly bad
2) By putting 30 points into valor you miss out on about half of the damage multiplying traits, and you also miss out on critical quality of life traits from going down virtues. The opportunity cost is not something you can ignore.
3) Most AH builds also go deep into honor for the shouts and empowering might. While some of the traits are perfectly fine in this line, going deep into this AND valor gives up nearly all of the quality of life and damage modifiers that make the meta build so good.
4) While using zerker gear can mitigate some of the damage loss, missing out on the damage modifying traits and the trait line bonuses can’t be made up. Doing this btw means you can’t facetank anything, you gain maybe an extra hit you can take from a silver mob.
The net effect of the entire build is giving up nearly all of you damage ability, your ability to spam blinds and apply vuln and group burning. You GAIN a higher health pool, the ability to face tank open world mobs and dungeon trash and the ability and inducement to spam boons and use the staff (which is terrible btw). Since most of the boons you are spamming aren’t wanted or can be given with the meta builds, its a non factor. The only reason why you are granting boons is because you want to heal up. Heals that aren’t required with active dodging and blind/aegis use. AH builds encourage selfish and ineffective play that is effectively just leaching off the group because you aren’t doing anything needed or wanted. The ideas that lead to AH being “good” are using arguments that try to force a trinity. A mechanic that is not in this game. Parties don’t need healers or tanks. Individual heals work better and the aggro tables aren’t conducive to “holding” aggro Parties need damage focused players who provide their share of needed boons and utility.

notabot, I also endorse and encourage the meta build, but this isn’t what the previous discussion was about.

In the event that someone is incapable or unwilling to run the meta build, then what alternatives are there? If the issue is dying a lot more than attacking, then many players flock to self sustain abilities.

Enter the statement: “Dead dps is no dps”.

Then the argument went from zerker meta can do more dead than cleric AH. After some quabbling, I attempted to put context into the discussion with the so called for math. My attempt was to show zerker meta versus zerker AH, and then to try to quantify how close or far away a dead dps is to a lower consistent dps in “theory”.

End result was it depends on the parameters you set, and those can be skewed in favor of either argument.

This was responded back with a “you mad bro” and then enter you. A lot of other reading and tangents that you apparently did not look at, but you are taking the discussion/argument to a whole different place and backtracking a lot, just fyi.

Meta is optimal, if you can’t you can do just fine mixing it up, but you won’t be optimal. If that is alright with the player who is uncomfortable with meta, then that is their choice.

My only reason for jumping in is to pull away from the argument and add context to the statements being used. Again, I endorse and encourage people to run the meta, and I agree with the others who say to try the meta. I simply disagree with the disdain and hate being spewed from some people.

If that still does not work, you are not “drastically and grievously” wrong for doing something else that it should offend others because you are a horrible spot of filth on this world and you should be ashamed of yourself….

No you just need to adjust some things so that you feel comfortable and capable in your own play.

I read the entire thing, including the OP. OP wasn’t rejecting the meta build, he was wanting to know if AH was viable (which it isn’t by most terms of viable that matter) and if it wasn’t what alternatives were there. The meta build is just as survivable, if not more so, as the typical AH 12 months ago meta build. Any attempt to defend a AH build is backtracking 12 months to a time and place that no longer exist.

As for the dead dps is no dps argument, a AH zerker build isn’t really any more survivable in areas where such arguments might be valid than the meta build. You lose active survival skills compared to meta AND the static survival the cleric/knights/valk armor/trinkets that normal AH builds provide. Its like the worst of both worlds.

I would rather have a meta guy go down occasionally while being useful 99% of the time than a toon that ineffectively putters around looking busy. Your “best” ah build does 76 percent of what a meta character does? 24 percent less dps is huge, esp if you were to say nerf everybody in a party by a similar amount. Across an entire party it more net loss than just 4 manning content. I’ll have to say this: sometimes you are in a group and it feels like you are the only one doing anything. You go down because you miss a skill/lag/other guys does something stupid you are trying to compensate for( long fights make these errors more likely). Party damage grinds to near 0. I’ve seen the effigy in CoF actually heal with 4 characters attacking it after i went down. . Nobody who actually would run with the AH in the first place is going to use the 76% effective build anyways.

Giving bad advice is not a virtue. Telling people that AH is viable is a lie, because it is not at all viable. It’s at best a crutch, a crutch that actually just hobbles you into a series of bad choices that ends up in a best case scenario being 3/4’s as effective as you should be, and in a most like scenario half the player that even a scrub with a modified meta build (like using knights) is. I pug a fair amount its fairly obvious when a new pet trash builds like the scepter/smite build or a staff AH build is being pushed. Its a nightmare of dealing with would be healers/tanks/resmonkeys trying to get through content with the most pants on head strategies and builds possible. Anybody pushing AH is part of the reason why pugging is such a nightmare of bearbows, fearmancers and gandalf staff guardians. Don’t be part of the problem, be part of the solution. Friends don’t let friends AH. This isn’t from any sort of elitism (I’m not particularly good, its why I rely on the superior survival/damage of the meta build), its doing everybody a favor. Don’t waste your time and gold on trash builds, don’t encourage people to waste their time and gold on trash builds.

So for the first 6-8 months we couldn’t finish any dungeons because AH was the primary build guardians used and the game was just awful because nothing ever died because it out healed our dps??!? Or was it just as capable in a fight, albeit not as optimal and fast?

Also, the point of AH is that scales badly with healing power, so you actually want to use dps gear with it.

Players should not use AH to tank, but to “sustain” in normal combat. If the fights do not finish before other resources do, because of bad dps, gear, dodging, then having this cushion helps them.

I’m trying to agree with you guys that meta is good and the ideal way to play, In fact I run meta. Yet at the same time I acknowledge that it isn’t the “only” way to do it….

This is the whole contention. The fact that someone does not “min/max” and dares to play “your” game incorrectly. How narrow minded and unoriginal, but I can’t please everyone though, so I fold.

Enjoy lording over everyone else with your magical internet kitten of greatness. I hope many phat lewtz and fast runz come your way. Woe be the noobz who cross your path, for their lives cut short and their dreams do shatter.

Stand TALL among those who have fallen, feel great and walk forward…tall…proud….a shining example to all humanity that greatness is in your grasp, for you are able to do what someone else has told you to do, and guard it well with blind eyes and deaf ears. Go onward, brainless and unafraid, spew forth the words that others have given to you and speak! spread the glory yet to unfold that is your legacy!

….ok I’m done being sarcastic, I gotta remember this is the internet and not to try to reason with people.

CMF.5461:

….ok I’m done being sarcastic, I gotta remember this is the internet and not to try to reason with people.

People are probably feeling the same way about trying to reason with you.

J Eberle.9312:

CMF.5461:

….ok I’m done being sarcastic, I gotta remember this is the internet and not to try to reason with people.

People are probably feeling the same way about trying to reason with you.

Read his bold text please.

For what it is worth obviously we are all doing it wrong anyway because there is the pending adjustments coming down the content patch to crit or such. This thread has been beat to death and we all agree to disagree on some of the talking points.

AH has some good zerg utility in WvW. Aside from that, meditations would be better to run if you are going to roam.

Now in the realm of PvE, it is problematic (especially for someone without much experience with the class). AH is a huge trait investment in a tree that doesn’t really bring any benefits to the party, and only minimal benefits to the user.

The biggest problem with AH is that it reduces your personal DPS to a level of uselessness.
-AH pushes guardians into using shouts; this can be a huge waste of their utility slots
-The actual healing of AH is not so high that it can trivialize content; in short, you will be losing health a lot regardless if you are relying on AH for your survival
-What does that mean? It means that you will keep wasting boons on keeping yourself alive, instead of monitoring the team and using them as needed. This is where you see Guardians wasting Aegis or stability for a few heals.
-Better survivability would actually be attained with more survivable armor; there is no shame in starting off somewhere.
-It betrays the user into a sense of security and feeling of usefulness. In fact, they are pushing short lived boons to their benefit and to the detriment of the team.

This has been my experience with AH Guardians. As a Guardian main, I cannot recommend this build to anyone outside of WvW.

I thought it’d be interesting to see if I could make a “viable” AH build. Going to use knight’s gear too!

20/0/30/0/20 “Build A”
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQJARSlUg6CHGyKEf4ESmCRCBrUEP3z1jEiiYIA-jQBBYfBK7sIasFXFRjVXDT5iIqWKgIWGB-e

20/25/0/0/25 “Build B”
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fUAQNAsdRlUg6CHGyKEf4ESODRCBtZAQHUli45eA-jgBBYfCiUBBKzsIasFXFRjVXDT5iIqWKgIWGB-e

I’d like to take a look at these two side by side.

Build A has + 13% crit damage and + 100 power.
Build B has + 6% crit chance and + 15% damage multiplyer (+ 10% with sword, about + ~2.5% with weapon swaps)
Build A has ~3k armor Build B has less than 2200.

Build B has blind on VoJ and no recharge of VoJ on kill.
Build A has increased survivability with AH and Strength in Numbers.
——————————————————————————

Now, does build A hit like a wet noodle? I don’t think it falls into the detriment to the party like people have been saying. Is that ~15% damage loss offset by survivability?

Short answer: Great for PUGs and suboptimal for organized runs.

Saint.5647:

AH has some good zerg utility in WvW. Aside from that, meditations would be better to run if you are going to roam.

Now in the realm of PvE, it is problematic (especially for someone without much experience with the class). AH is a huge trait investment in a tree that doesn’t really bring any benefits to the party, and only minimal benefits to the user.

The biggest problem with AH is that it reduces your personal DPS to a level of uselessness.
-AH pushes guardians into using shouts; this can be a huge waste of their utility slots
-The actual healing of AH is not so high that it can trivialize content; in short, you will be losing health a lot regardless if you are relying on AH for your survival
-What does that mean? It means that you will keep wasting boons on keeping yourself alive, instead of monitoring the team and using them as needed. This is where you see Guardians wasting Aegis or stability for a few heals.
-Better survivability would actually be attained with more survivable armor; there is no shame in starting off somewhere.
-It betrays the user into a sense of security and feeling of usefulness. In fact, they are pushing short lived boons to their benefit and to the detriment of the team.

This has been my experience with AH Guardians. As a Guardian main, I cannot recommend this build to anyone outside of WvW.

Wrong. Shouts are the best group support skills a guard has. Group Stability, aegis, and protection/regen and all of them synergize with AH.

Taking AH also does not nerf your dps since your dps is mostly determined by your gear choice. Not to mention taking AH gives you an additional 30% crit damage and 300 toughness, which also synergizes with retributive precision to give more precision and therefore dps.

The fact is AH is probably the most viable and consistent pve build out there for guards. It’s just that there’s an unending number of charlatans on the forums who think they are special and found some magical build that is somehow better when all facts show otherwise.

Saturn.6591:

^I doubt that the difference in dps between a meta-build and a less optimal build (taking AH for example) is THAT big. Depending on the build and the skill of the player using it, I guess it equals out or at least almost equals out. And then there’s always the skill of the players you run with, which is a factor too. It might happen that they bring you into situations where you would die in a meta-build but could survive in a non-meta build; who knows.

I guess outside of speedruns it doesn’t really matter if you run meta or not, as long as your dps is still acceptable and you bring at least some useful things to the party.

Assuming that the only changing variable is trait set, then you’re right, the DPS difference isn’t that big at all (for your given example of 10/30/30 vs. meta). That’s purely DPS though. When you put 30 points into valor, you’re sacrificing all of your utility traits, for something that isn’t overly amazing, short of the 30 crit damage. Taking AH doesn’t mean you instantly do poop DPS, but it does mean that you’re investing a lot of points into a line that isn’t as good as people think it is.

As for your last paragraph, yea, pretty much. The general idea though is to convince people that there are better alternatives, and why they should consider using them. Some people are better than others at achieving this. Ideally, people wouldn’t need to take AH, because it’s not too useful and it’s quite an expensive trait. On the other hand, it only really becomes a big problem for PUG groups when people who run AH, decide that it needs to combined with full clerics/PVT. If they used AH with the other 40 points being used well, and with offensive gear/runes, then it would be better for everyone.

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong. Shouts are the best group support skills a guard has.

The fact is AH is probably the most viable and consistent pve build out there for guards.

FOR PVE ONLY.

No No No! Consecrations are best group support that guardians have. Wall of Reflect and Purging Flames are amazing. With Wall of Reflect being the show stopper that alone makes consecrations the best.

I generally only have 1 shout on my bar, if any at all. For fractals WoR, SOA, PF, and retreat are what takes turns on my bar. With Hallowed ground and SYG being situationally swapped in.

A full shout guardian is almost as bad a full shout warrior in PVE. Take that shhht and put in on the bench.