Guild Wars 2

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong. Shouts are the best group support skills a guard has.

The fact is AH is probably the most viable and consistent pve build out there for guards.

FOR PVE ONLY.

No No No! Consecrations are best group support that guardians have. Wall of Reflect and Purging Flames are amazing. With Wall of Reflect being the show stopper that alone makes consecrations the best.

I generally only have 1 shout on my bar, if any at all. For fractals WoR, SOA, PF, and retreat are what takes turns on my bar. With Hallowed ground and SYG being situationally swapped in.

A full shout guardian is almost as bad a full shout warrior in PVE. Take that shhht and put in on the bench.

Um I did say pve in my post. You just took the first part of my post out of context and ignored everything else.

Consecrations are situational and do not synergize with traits while shouts synergize with AH as well as for example soldier runes and has a wider range and do not require you to stack inside the circle.

WOR and SOA I slot in for various encounters but for 90% of the other fights full shouts work far better with AH.

DeathPanel.8362:

Um I did say pve in my post. You just took the first part of my post out of context and ignored everything else.

Consecrations are situational and do not synergize with traits while shouts synergize with AH as well as for example soldier runes and has a wider range and do not require you to stack inside the circle.

WOR and SOA I slot in for various encounters but for 90% of the other fights full shouts work far better with AH.

My point, is AH is useless in dungeons to have since shouts are second class citizens in PVE. The only shout that is cool for any encounter in retreat, the only other team one is SYG which is super situational. SYS is really good for solo’ing with 25 in virtues, which AH builds generally don’t invest 25 in virtues since they aren’t worried about doing damage.

tl;dr : In PvE consecrations > shouts. AH = poop

DeathPanel.8362:

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong. Shouts are the best group support skills a guard has.

The fact is AH is probably the most viable and consistent pve build out there for guards.

FOR PVE ONLY.

No No No! Consecrations are best group support that guardians have. Wall of Reflect and Purging Flames are amazing. With Wall of Reflect being the show stopper that alone makes consecrations the best.

I generally only have 1 shout on my bar, if any at all. For fractals WoR, SOA, PF, and retreat are what takes turns on my bar. With Hallowed ground and SYG being situationally swapped in.

A full shout guardian is almost as bad a full shout warrior in PVE. Take that shhht and put in on the bench.

Um I did say pve in my post. You just took the first part of my post out of context and ignored everything else.

Consecrations are situational and do not synergize with traits while shouts synergize with AH as well as for example soldier runes and has a wider range and do not require you to stack inside the circle.

WOR and SOA I slot in for various encounters but for 90% of the other fights full shouts work far better with AH.

Soldier runes are useless because usually only 1 shout is ran anyway. It also have 5 useless stats on it. AH is selfish and used as training wheels or for wvw play, experienced guards dropped AH a long, long time ago for pve, honestly, if you are a good guard in pve you really won’t need it. And to say shouts are better than consecrations is just pure madness. Wall of reflection is one of the most amazing utility skills in the game, and you need MoC to make it last longer. Also others are good for either might stacking/condi removal/stability. Yes shouts are good, but not always useful. Where as you will always have 1 consecration on your bar if just for a fire field to blast in

Painbow.6059:

DeathPanel.8362:

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

DeathPanel.8362:

Wrong. Shouts are the best group support skills a guard has.

The fact is AH is probably the most viable and consistent pve build out there for guards.

FOR PVE ONLY.

No No No! Consecrations are best group support that guardians have. Wall of Reflect and Purging Flames are amazing. With Wall of Reflect being the show stopper that alone makes consecrations the best.

I generally only have 1 shout on my bar, if any at all. For fractals WoR, SOA, PF, and retreat are what takes turns on my bar. With Hallowed ground and SYG being situationally swapped in.

A full shout guardian is almost as bad a full shout warrior in PVE. Take that shhht and put in on the bench.

Um I did say pve in my post. You just took the first part of my post out of context and ignored everything else.

Consecrations are situational and do not synergize with traits while shouts synergize with AH as well as for example soldier runes and has a wider range and do not require you to stack inside the circle.

WOR and SOA I slot in for various encounters but for 90% of the other fights full shouts work far better with AH.

Soldier runes are useless because usually only 1 shout is ran anyway.

I just gave that as an example of synergies.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

DeathPanel.8362:

Um I did say pve in my post. You just took the first part of my post out of context and ignored everything else.

Consecrations are situational and do not synergize with traits while shouts synergize with AH as well as for example soldier runes and has a wider range and do not require you to stack inside the circle.

WOR and SOA I slot in for various encounters but for 90% of the other fights full shouts work far better with AH.

My point, is AH is useless in dungeons to have since shouts are second class citizens in PVE. The only shout that is cool for any encounter in retreat, the only other team one is SYG which is super situational. SYS is really good for solo’ing with 25 in virtues, which AH builds generally don’t invest 25 in virtues since they aren’t worried about doing damage.

tl;dr : In PvE consecrations > shouts. AH = poop

So protection and regen to the whole team with hold the line doesn’t count for anything? And how’s stunbreak/group stability in anyway situational? If that’s situational then by comparison consecrations are far more situational. Not to mention Ah triggers each time you do any shouts which grants you even more sustain.

You’ve yet to demonstrate or prove any of your assertions with any data or facts. I’ve pointed out the synergies with AH and the group support you gain from shouts while the best argument you’ve mustered is “AH = poop”.

Here is what AH does. It makes bad players think that running more shouts than necessary is a good idea. Then those same players, seem to use the shouts as either ways to heal themselves, or with soldier runes only use shouts to remove condi which is silly.

AH promotes bad game play. If you need a shout on your bar, then do it. But it doesn’t require AH, since it is a giant waste of valuable trait points.

If you want protection, get a hammer and give perma protection. 5 seconds on a 24 second cool down isn’t anything to brag about.

AH does have that drawback; players that use it tend to hit shouts as heals instead of when the shout SHOULD be used. That doesn’t make AH bad, it just makes it a tool that can be used improperly. Used correctly, it’s very effective, just like the meta used correctly, allows players to rely on their base toolset for sufficient defense, allowing them to focus on the more desirable features of the profession.

Bad players are bad, discouraging them from using AH doesn’t change that and throwing them into builds that need more skill than the average player has just amplifies their bad play.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Here is what AH does. It makes bad players think that running more shouts than necessary is a good idea. Then those same players, seem to use the shouts as either ways to heal themselves, or with soldier runes only use shouts to remove condi which is silly.

AH promotes bad game play. If you need a shout on your bar, then do it. But it doesn’t require AH, since it is a giant waste of valuable trait points.

If you want protection, get a hammer and give perma protection. 5 seconds on a 24 second cool down isn’t anything to brag about.

That’s your opinion and an unsubstantiated one. You are imagining a problem into being that doesn’t exist in the first place. The fact is AH synergizes perfectly with boon granting skills which happens to include shouts and even to your point hammer skills. And shouts happen to grant some of the most useful group buffs in the game such as stability, protection/regen, aegis/swiftness. Your assertion that getting AH wastes trait points is also completely unfounded as you’ve yet to show any evidence.

Sure in some situations WOR and SOA or some consecrations for example can be swapped in for certain encounters but the fact remains the synergy between shouts and AH makes the build one of the most viable pve/wvw zerg builds out there.

Also, 30% crit damage and 300 toughness which synergizes with retributive precision actually grants dps as well.

You are just spouting off the same tired and unsubstantiated talking points of those who deny AH is viable simply based on their own unsubstantiated biases and lack of understanding.

@Ob
But the heals are so pathetically small from it…. Its not even worth it. AH shines with a staff in PvP, since you can bunker hard with it. But in PvE, you simply should not run a staff. AH is just weak in dungeons. It is a waste of trait points.

@DP Anything is “viable”. Go look at naked dungeon runs. This isn’t the point. Its about choosing things over other things because they are better.

If your whole post was “Its viable, but not one of the best choices”, then I agree with you.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

@Ob
But the heals are so pathetically small from it…. Its not even worth it.

That’s funny because as much as everyone proclaims the greatness of 25 Virtue, I thought the exact same thing … the damage you get from it is so pathetically small from it that it’s not even worth it. I’m being a bit facetious here but the point is that heal accumulate. By itself, it’s not the greatest, but then again, if someone wants a healing build (whether we think it’s necessary or not), it’s how healing works in this game. From that concept, AH is plenty viable.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Anything is “viable”. Go look at naked dungeon runs. This isn’t the point. Its about choosing things over other things because they are better.

Um, it is EXACTLY the point because that’s what the OP is asking for.

Obtena.7952:

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Anything is “viable”. Go look at naked dungeon runs. This isn’t the point. Its about choosing things over other things because they are better.

Um, it is EXACTLY the point because that’s what the OP is asking for.

Anything is technically viable…. So we should say yes to everything…. You just need patience and a lot of time on your hands.

I’m only posting here, so some new person doesn’t wander in this forums and read about AH and decide to run it. Its not a good build. But if you don’t care about running efficient things, then ignore my posts.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

But the heals are so pathetically small from it…. Its not even worth it. AH shines with a staff in PvP, since you can bunker hard with it. But in PvE, you simply should not run a staff. AH is just weak in dungeons. It is a waste of trait points.

AH is for sustain, not direct healing. Also staff as well as other weapon sets all have uses that’s why any guardian who knows what he’s doing always carries extra staff in inventory or as secondary.

No one said you’re supposed to have a staff out at all times to fight with. You only swap it in for speed buffs or might stacking or line of warding while skipping and swap back to your hammer or GS or sword/focus for dps.

DeathPanel.8362:

any guardian who knows what he’s doing always carries extra staff in inventory or as secondary.

If you use a staff to skip, how does that help you in a fight? We aren’t talking about out of combat or running to the next spot. In combat, you should… Should use either gs+sword/focus or Hammer+GS or Sword/Focus or Use staff to drop line of warding then go hammer and never swap back until you get ooc.

Staff is only used to fight or swap to in combat by bad players…. But if you don’t care about optimal play, then please ignore my posts.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Obtena.7952:

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Anything is “viable”. Go look at naked dungeon runs. This isn’t the point. Its about choosing things over other things because they are better.

Um, it is EXACTLY the point because that’s what the OP is asking for.

Anything is technically viable…. So we should say yes to everything…. You just need patience and a lot of time on your hands.

BINGO! I’m glad you said it because THAT is what is true here. It’s not about bad this or awesome that, it’s about a bunch of people that insist others play the meta because they don’t like teaming non-meta players. Why? because it wastes their time. That’s not a problem that can be solved by discouraging players and builds.

Well I kinda like the meta, but I also like AH.
I think personally both are good for PvE and I do’t really care what other say because the whole purpose of this game originally was to play how you want not like other want and thats what metas tend to do. “Unless you run this you are not viabe”. WRONG. you are all forgeting what this game wanted for us to do and just pushing builds. You all are going to say that this doesn’t really matter but from my personal experience with both build right till now, I prefer AH. I pug most content and I must say, Shout give more support. WoR is great adn that one is a must when you know where to use but Purging flames requires for people to stay in the area. Now in Fractals this is good ppl usually stack, but in another dgns this doesn’t happen at all times and so ince the most content I run ppl don’t stack I foun that most times the consecration only ends up affecting just my than my allies. So don’t say shouts are bad because they aren’t, in a pug situation they end up being better in most cases because I can still give them boons or cleanse their condition and they are able to still do damage from a far if they choose too.

About damage, till now, since I do most with pugs, my biggest WW was 11k. With AH and Zerker my biggest was 9k. Less 2k but I got down way less time than with the meta. AH is more forgiving of mistakes than the meta, therefore I think it’s the best and optimal build for pugging and the meta is the best for organized groups. For instance if you have a core group done and you do most content with them, meta all the way. If you have to take newbies and pugs that don’t have mastered the class in most cases than go with AH. But I don’t really care what it is your build and you also shouldn’t. kitten if I cared i couldn’t do any content with my guild just 2 or 3 tops run metas with their class. Does that make them bad players? No. I can complete any content with them so far.

The OP asked for advice, some recomended the meta other didn’t, still that doesn’t make the other half right or wrong. Meta is an option, not an obligation, as AH is an option too, a viable one eitheir you want it or not. kitten for me any option is viable if it get the job done. And I mean if at the end I get the dgn done with no wipes and in a good time, I don’t care wich build they had but I’m sure it was viable

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

DeathPanel.8362:

any guardian who knows what he’s doing always carries extra staff in inventory or as secondary.

If you use a staff to skip, how does that help you in a fight? We aren’t talking about out of combat or running to the next spot. In combat, you should… Should use either gs+sword/focus or Hammer+GS or Sword/Focs or Use staff to drop line of warding then go hammer and never swap back until you get ooc.

Staff is only used to fight or swap to in combat by bad players…. But if you don’t care about optimal play, then please ignore my posts.

You do realize there’s 2 weapon slots for guardians right?

Who ever said you need to use the staff at all while fighting? You can either empower every 20 secs for 12 stacks of might to the team or you can save it as an emergency heal with AH in case you get low and heal is on cd. Or you can simply choose not to use it while in combat and use your primary weapon. Simply saying using a staff makes you bad just shows how simplistic and unsubstantiated your views are.

DeathPanel.8362:

Saint.5647:

AH has some good zerg utility in WvW. Aside from that, meditations would be better to run if you are going to roam.

Now in the realm of PvE, it is problematic (especially for someone without much experience with the class). AH is a huge trait investment in a tree that doesn’t really bring any benefits to the party, and only minimal benefits to the user.

The biggest problem with AH is that it reduces your personal DPS to a level of uselessness.
-AH pushes guardians into using shouts; this can be a huge waste of their utility slots
-The actual healing of AH is not so high that it can trivialize content; in short, you will be losing health a lot regardless if you are relying on AH for your survival
-What does that mean? It means that you will keep wasting boons on keeping yourself alive, instead of monitoring the team and using them as needed. This is where you see Guardians wasting Aegis or stability for a few heals.
-Better survivability would actually be attained with more survivable armor; there is no shame in starting off somewhere.
-It betrays the user into a sense of security and feeling of usefulness. In fact, they are pushing short lived boons to their benefit and to the detriment of the team.

This has been my experience with AH Guardians. As a Guardian main, I cannot recommend this build to anyone outside of WvW.

Wrong. Shouts are the best group support skills a guard has. Group Stability, aegis, and protection/regen and all of them synergize with AH.

Taking AH also does not nerf your dps since your dps is mostly determined by your gear choice. Not to mention taking AH gives you an additional 30% crit damage and 300 toughness, which also synergizes with retributive precision to give more precision and therefore dps.

The fact is AH is probably the most viable and consistent pve build out there for guards. It’s just that there’s an unending number of charlatans on the forums who think they are special and found some magical build that is somehow better when all facts show otherwise.

Ease up killer. That isn’t quite correct. As someone else pointed out, consecrations are the best things a Guard can bring to the fight from a PvE standpoint. The one shout worth keeping on the bar most of the time is “retreat” for that Aegis rotation. If you’re not taking Wall and Condi. cleanse, you may as well not be bringing the Guardian in the first place.

The AH should build is certainly not the most “viable” or “optimal” build. It is passable if that’s what you want to run, but it isn’t by any stretch a “good build” for PvE.

At worst, you get Guardians who use their shouts to heal themselves and waste the effects when they are actually needed. At best, you just get a decrease in overall efficiency from the wasted trait points.

DeathPanel.8362:

You do realize there’s 2 weapon slots for guardians right?

Who ever said you need to use the staff at all while fighting? You can either empower every 20 secs for 12 stacks of might to the team or you can save it as an emergency heal with AH in case you get low and heal is on cd. Or you can simply choose not to use it while in combat and use your primary weapon. Simply saying using a staff makes you bad just shows how simplistic and unsubstantiated your views are.

Its like you didn’t even read my post.. I clearly put GS+Sword/Focus or Hammer+… You know what.. It doesn’t even matter.

Next time anyone asks a question if their build is cool. I’ll say yes because Obtena said so. Since anything is cool. Just run it. Don’t even ask for advice here. No reason to learn how to optimize your guard. Just run whatever the heck you want.

Saint.5647:

At worst, you get Guardians who use their shouts to heal themselves and waste the effects when they are actually needed. At best, you just get a decrease in overall efficiency from the wasted trait points.

Again with this same tired and weak talking point. What is with this “wasted trait points” thing? People like you just assert things without substantiation. How about you actually show how the trait points are wasted and what would you not consider a waste before you blindly assert things you haven’t demonstrated?

AH is proven to be suboptimal in both terms of DPS and support for the party.

As I said before, if you wanna run AH and be suboptimal: it is a free world.

Also, if you think that by running AH you will have more survivability remember: you are not helping your party that much + you could obtain the same survivability by learning how to better use your Guardian’s skills (including dodge).

I also thought that AH was a powerhouse for dungeons and that I would be immortal with it and hence I could survive the longest and hence help more my party.
I was wrong.

DeathPanel.8362:

Saint.5647:

At worst, you get Guardians who use their shouts to heal themselves and waste the effects when they are actually needed. At best, you just get a decrease in overall efficiency from the wasted trait points.

Again with this same tired and weak talking point. What is with this “wasted trait points” thing? People like you just assert things without substantiation. How about you actually show how the trait points are wasted and what would you not consider a waste before you blindly assert things you haven’t demonstrated?

Why not go read the guide written by the most respected PVE guard. Its even stickied!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guide-DPS-Guardian-for-PVE/first

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

DeathPanel.8362:

You do realize there’s 2 weapon slots for guardians right?

Who ever said you need to use the staff at all while fighting? You can either empower every 20 secs for 12 stacks of might to the team or you can save it as an emergency heal with AH in case you get low and heal is on cd. Or you can simply choose not to use it while in combat and use your primary weapon. Simply saying using a staff makes you bad just shows how simplistic and unsubstantiated your views are.

Its like you didn’t even read my post.. I clearly put GS+Sword/Focus or Hammer+… You know what.. It doesn’t even matter.

Next time anyone asks a question if their build is cool. I’ll say yes because Obtena said so. Since anything is cool. Just run it. Don’t even ask for advice here. No reason to learn how to optimize your guard. Just run whatever the heck you want.

Well considering your most substantiated argument for your point was “AH = poop” as well as your other simplistic talking points I suppose it would be best for everyone that you don’t give advice on builds going forward.

DeathPanel.8362:

Well considering your most substantiated argument for your point was “AH = poop” as well as your other simplistic talking points I suppose it would be best for everyone that you don’t give advice on builds going forward.

Straw man argument. How cute

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

DeathPanel.8362:

Saint.5647:

At worst, you get Guardians who use their shouts to heal themselves and waste the effects when they are actually needed. At best, you just get a decrease in overall efficiency from the wasted trait points.

Again with this same tired and weak talking point. What is with this “wasted trait points” thing? People like you just assert things without substantiation. How about you actually show how the trait points are wasted and what would you not consider a waste before you blindly assert things you haven’t demonstrated?

Why not go read the guide written by the most respected PVE guard. Its even stickied!

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Guide-DPS-Guardian-for-PVE/first

That’s a relative statement. That topic is not related to this one. Obviously if dps is the main focus then the build will need to be different, but we are talking about the overall effectiveness of AH here so a dps guard build topic is totally irrelevant.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

DeathPanel.8362:

Well considering your most substantiated argument for your point was “AH = poop” as well as your other simplistic talking points I suppose it would be best for everyone that you don’t give advice on builds going forward.

Straw man argument. How cute

It’s not a strawman argument if I quote you verbatim on something you said. Unless you don’t know what a strawman argument is, which at this point is looking very likely.

DeathPanel.8362:

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

DeathPanel.8362:

Well considering your most substantiated argument for your point was “AH = poop” as well as your other simplistic talking points I suppose it would be best for everyone that you don’t give advice on builds going forward.

Straw man argument. How cute

It’s not a strawman argument if I quote you verbatim on something you said. Unless you don’t know what a strawman argument is, which at this point is looking very likely.

You are shifting the focus of the argument to an irrelevant thing. You are disregarding my actually argued points, to focus on something that has no baring on what we were discussing. There you go.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

DeathPanel.8362:

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

DeathPanel.8362:

Well considering your most substantiated argument for your point was “AH = poop” as well as your other simplistic talking points I suppose it would be best for everyone that you don’t give advice on builds going forward.

Straw man argument. How cute

It’s not a strawman argument if I quote you verbatim on something you said. Unless you don’t know what a strawman argument is, which at this point is looking very likely.

You are shifting the focus of the argument to an irrelevant thing. You are disregarding my actually argued points, to focus on something that has no barring on what we were discussing. There you go.

I quoted you verbatim on what you said directly related to the discussion, you accuse me falsely of strawman argument, and I pointed out why you are wrong, and now you are accusing me of shifting focus?

Shifting the focus is EXACTLY what you are trying to do via projection. You have already lost the main argument and have failed to attack me personally by accusing me of strawmaning and now the only resort you have left is to shift the focus while trying to project it onto me.

You’ve pretty much hit most of the standard debating fallacies already. Almost a textbook example of what not to do in debates.

If this was a debate class you’d get a F.
Class dismissed.

just came in to +1 hybrid, continue * eats popcorn *

DeathPanel.8362:

The fact is AH is probably the most viable and consistent pve build out there for guards. It’s just that there’s an unending number of charlatans on the forums who think they are special and found some magical build that is somehow better when all facts show otherwise.

I see you’re a pretty upset dude/dude-ette, so I won’t linger.

More prominent community members than I have demonstrated the worth of the current PvE Guardian Meta. You’ve already been linked Obal’s extensive work.

The Meta has rightfully shifted away from AH in the time since GW2 released. Lay out your facts that show otherwise or be on your way. I think you’ve done quite enough howling.

The OP is trying to get advice on builds. You seem to have a bone to pick with the Meta for whatever reason. Pick it and be done. Or lay out the buildcrafting behind your AH build that proves it is the most viable and consistent PvE build for Guardians. The onus is on you

People always seem to have a bone to pick with meta builds. And so they force their bad advice on unsuspecting newbies. Its pretty tragic that the ones that suffer from this meta hate are the people seeking honest advice.

It’s not a meta-hate. Some people just recognize that it’s not always the answer to every request for advice about builds.

You guys really need to chill
The OP is not even listening to this non-sence anymore if he’s smart. He asked for advice he got it it’s also up to him to follow as is up to anyone to use any build. Sure some want to be and use the best and they will follow the meta and change their builds as the class chanes. Some will use want they are most confortable behing the meta or AH. No one here is forcing anyon to use anything why trying to say that one is better than the other? Is up to the player and how he use the build. I must say I’ve been trying to use the meta and yet my results are pure failure and I feel like i’m being carryed and it will be up to me if I continue this way or I get back to my confort zone.

You look like the spvp comunity when I started playing spvp in which I would go bunker or I could gtfo and they wouldn’t even care when it’s proven that Guardian roamer is also viable and better than other classes at that job.

This forum has week mods otherwise this would be closed by now

Deathpanel damage builds can provide protection, blind, invuln, aegis, condi remove and stability just like AH does, while doing 10 fold the damage AH does. You’re only possible argument is " I provide heals " or " I can tank mobs" which are poor arguments since nothing in this game is difficult enough to require healers/tanks . But if I am wrong please inform my ignorance..

But in answer to OP, Ah isn’t worthless but it isn’t optimal. Just play how you want with like minded people who don’t use optimal builds and you’ll have fun:)

These threads always pop up, and it’s the same thing every time. Yes, AH isn’t needed for PvE, and there are more optimal builds. When it comes down to it just run the build you’re comfortable with. There’s no sense in going full zerker meta build if you just down every second, and can’t handle it.

Saint.5647:

The OP is trying to get advice on builds. You seem to have a bone to pick with the Meta for whatever reason. Pick it and be done. Or lay out the buildcrafting behind your AH build that proves it is the most viable and consistent PvE build for Guardians. The onus is on you

Thank you for trying to get the conversation back in the right direction. It’s disheartening to see all this back and forth on semantics, when my post that actually deals with a build theory gets passed over.

I’m curious to what opinions will be after ferocity is introduced too. With critical damage having diminished returns on points invested like with critical chance, I think there’s going to be a lot more value in these damage multipliers in the meta.

joey the creator.3587:

Deathpanel damage builds can provide protection, blind, invuln, aegis, condi remove and stability just like AH does, while doing 10 fold the damage AH does. You’re only possible argument is " I provide heals " or " I can tank mobs" which are poor arguments since nothing in this game is difficult enough to require healers/tanks . But if I am wrong please inform my ignorance..

Show Spoiler

hide spoiler

I’m wrong.

Lol you are wrong. Gear choice accounts for a vast majority of the dps for any given build. If you take full zerk on guard and only change the traits I don’t care what traits you choose you will not get a significant increase in dps over AH at least not without significantly impacting survivability.

How do I know this? Because unlike you and those uninformed like you I actually tested multiple builds as well as trait setups with guards. I have 2 fully geared lvl 80 guards and have pretty much play tested most of the builds I’ve seen in the forums as well as having gone through multiple sets of gears in iteration.

People like you just jump on the AH bashing bandwagon because it’s cookie cutter and you want to look like you are special or above it all, but it’s all hype when put to the real test and none of you can ever come up with actual evidence for your claims. AH is cookie cutter in pve for a reason, because it’s been proven and tested in actual gameplay by the general player base ever since release unlike the rogue builds that supposedly can perform better in pve that I’ve seen popping up but always failing to deliver. Until they alter guardian traits significantly and make different things in pve more viable, AH remains one of the most tested and proven pve build for guards hands down period.

Saint.5647:

DeathPanel.8362:

The fact is AH is probably the most viable and consistent pve build out there for guards. It’s just that there’s an unending number of charlatans on the forums who think they are special and found some magical build that is somehow better when all facts show otherwise.

I see you’re a pretty upset dude/dude-ette, so I won’t linger.

More prominent community members than I have demonstrated the worth of the current PvE Guardian Meta. You’ve already been linked Obal’s extensive work.

The Meta has rightfully shifted away from AH in the time since GW2 released. Lay out your facts that show otherwise or be on your way. I think you’ve done quite enough howling.

The OP is trying to get advice on builds. You seem to have a bone to pick with the Meta for whatever reason. Pick it and be done. Or lay out the buildcrafting behind your AH build that proves it is the most viable and consistent PvE build for Guardians. The onus is on you

This topic isn’t about building guard purely for full zerk meta. Maybe if you paid attention to the topic as well as my response when I was linked that you wouldn’t be making the mistake of assuming so. In fact my second guard is a full dps build not unlike that one so yet again you made unfounded assumptions regarding me having some form of gripe with the meta. My problem is with charlatans that haven’t actually tested any of their claims or shown any evidence and simply jumping on bandwagons to dismiss things they have no understanding of.

Contrary to your bandwagon fallacy “proven by the general player base ever since release” it’s really just your own opinion DeathPanel. You haven’t provided a build or referenced any facts, just that you’ve tested them yourself. And you didn’t even go in detail of what these tests were and how they translate into actual game play.

You’ve been relying on logical fallacies nearly every post, you’re not doing AH any favors. And this is coming from someone who sees AH as a viable choice for some, though suboptimal.

I guess this proves that AH is viable and stronk!
http://youtu.be/nEC2CmIcBD8

Interesting watching the evolution of your solo kills, from scepter (they are right, your scepter play was bad ><), to melee ah, to dps melee, and now the current meta build.

You didn’t even have wall of reflection on the first solo with scepter and it was painful to watch the adds swarm on you as you tried to smite them/kite them :p

So AH scepter with soldriers gear – 37 minutes
AH melee with soldiers gear – 29 minutes
DPS melee with zerker gear – 9.5 minutes

The soldiers gear was about 3 times slower than the zerker gear.

The only thing that would round out this whole thread is someone posting a ah melee with zerker gear solo and time :p

popcorn is so good.

For the love of god, stop comparing apples and oranges. At least if you wa nt to help OP, compare similar level of gear and different trait lines.

Sidenote, cool to see that people starting to admit that honor infact is a sponge, which i pointed out over 6 months ago when trying to promote virtues as a much better choice. Its really cool to see some of the antagonist in that thread now have jumped on the bandwagon, promoting virtues with the same level of conviction.

But seriously, the absolute amount of support that can be found in virtues is just meager. Sure the relative amount seems like a good trade off but if dps is what you want in pve encounter i seriously dont understand why you should invest one single point in virtues or honor.

The guardian has the majority of its support in the skills and the traitlines offer very little to enhance that, one or two traits being the exception.

People just put points in virtues to feel good about them selves when in reality, if dps is what matter, they should leave the traitline and invest max 5 points into.

@OP
10/25/30/0/5 Hammer/GS
full zerker, scholar runes, right food for the encounter.

DPS wise very close to all the meta builds and more dps than most of them. Tanky as hell with AH/medi. Difference in support is virtues. You wont be in charge of condiremoval on the team and no lowered cd on wall of reflection. That is what you loose out on.

CMF.5461:

Interesting watching the evolution of your solo kills, from scepter (they are right, your scepter play was bad ><), to melee ah, to dps melee, and now the current meta build.

You didn’t even have wall of reflection on the first solo with scepter and it was painful to watch the adds swarm on you as you tried to smite them/kite them :p

So AH scepter with soldriers gear – 37 minutes
AH melee with soldiers gear – 29 minutes
DPS melee with zerker gear – 9.5 minutes

The soldiers gear was about 3 times slower than the zerker gear.

The only thing that would round out this whole thread is someone posting a ah melee with zerker gear solo and time :p

You forgot to add the evolution of the Gandolf solo

Been running w 30 points in Valor for months. I like it

DeathPanel.8362:

joey the creator.3587:

Deathpanel damage builds can provide protection, blind, invuln, aegis, condi remove and stability just like AH does, while doing 10 fold the damage AH does. You’re only possible argument is " I provide heals " or " I can tank mobs" which are poor arguments since nothing in this game is difficult enough to require healers/tanks . But if I am wrong please inform my ignorance..

Show Spoiler

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I’m wrong.

Lol you are wrong. Gear choice accounts for a vast majority of the dps for any given build. If you take full zerk on guard and only change the traits I don’t care what traits you choose you will not get a significant increase in dps over AH at least not without significantly impacting survivability.

How do I know this? Because unlike you and those uninformed like you I actually tested multiple builds as well as trait setups with guards. I have 2 fully geared lvl 80 guards and have pretty much play tested most of the builds I’ve seen in the forums as well as having gone through multiple sets of gears in iteration.

People like you just jump on the AH bashing bandwagon because it’s cookie cutter and you want to look like you are special or above it all, but it’s all hype when put to the real test and none of you can ever come up with actual evidence for your claims. AH is cookie cutter in pve for a reason, because it’s been proven and tested in actual gameplay by the general player base ever since release unlike the rogue builds that supposedly can perform better in pve that I’ve seen popping up but always failing to deliver. Until they alter guardian traits significantly and make different things in pve more viable, AH remains one of the most tested and proven pve build for guards hands down period.

If we take 10/30/30/0/0 AH versus 20/25/0/0/25 meta, the AH build has 30% in damage modifiers + 30%+ crit dmg versus 30% (or 25% if on GS), + 100 power + X% (PotV) + 20% if using unscathed which depending on the boss can either be easy or hard to maintain. If we assume an average of five boons for PotV (might, fury, vigour are guaranteed at least) that leaves us with (on GS) a potential 50%+ in damage modifiers plus 100+ power on the meta build or 55%+ on sword versus 30%+ on the AH DPS build. The AH DPS build gives up the support utilities and DPS traits of virtues (master of consecrations, unscathed contender, absolute resolution, indomitable courage, even improved spirit weapon duration if shield of the avenger uptime is crucial for redundant traits like extra precision (when you can cap it anyway), extra toughness and AH which doesn’t matter when you’re taking huge hits at a time and are mostly using consecrations anyway.

So…

…the DPS ends up being fairly even. You just lose a bunch of support traits. If I personally could choose between having strong DPS + support versus just strong DPS, I’d take the former. You can quite easily argue that the main guardian support (consecrations) doesn’t require traiting, which is true, but then it depends on the content. If you want to have them up between fights more reliably (or chaining reflects against a boss like Alphard), wouldn’t you rather just take the virtues build which will give you equal DPS and faster cooldowns?

my 0.2 pennies

Brutaly.6257:

But seriously, the absolute amount of support that can be found in virtues is just meager. Sure the relative amount seems like a good trade off but if dps is what you want in pve encounter i seriously dont understand why you should invest one single point in virtues or honor.

You dont understand why we go in virtues? A 20% modifier and a 1% modifier per boon? Plus consecration cooldown which increases damage by having higher reflect uptime. And the option to get some extra condi cleanse. Do you even play the guardian? Not to mention you also have boon duration which is always nice aslong as you arent sacrificing anything for it.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Brutaly.6257:

But seriously, the absolute amount of support that can be found in virtues is just meager. Sure the relative amount seems like a good trade off but if dps is what you want in pve encounter i seriously dont understand why you should invest one single point in virtues or honor.

You dont understand why we go in virtues? A 20% modifier and a 1% modifier per boon? Plus consecration cooldown which increases damage by having higher reflect uptime. And the option to get some extra condi cleanse. Do you even play the guardian? Not to mention you also have boon duration which is always nice aslong as you arent sacrificing anything for it.

No, Brutaly don’t play a Guardian at all Spoj The Second. In fact, he doesn’t even play GW2…

Maybe you should get out a bit more and read. Brutaly was probably one of the first promoting builds and then updating his sticky that you would find up top.

Crapgame.6519:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Brutaly.6257:

But seriously, the absolute amount of support that can be found in virtues is just meager. Sure the relative amount seems like a good trade off but if dps is what you want in pve encounter i seriously dont understand why you should invest one single point in virtues or honor.

You dont understand why we go in virtues? A 20% modifier and a 1% modifier per boon? Plus consecration cooldown which increases damage by having higher reflect uptime. And the option to get some extra condi cleanse. Do you even play the guardian? Not to mention you also have boon duration which is always nice aslong as you arent sacrificing anything for it.

No, Brutaly don’t play a Guardian at all Spoj The Second. In fact, he doesn’t even play GW2…

Maybe you should get out a bit more and read. Brutaly was probably one of the first promoting builds and then updating his sticky that you would find up top.

That was sarcasm. And I thought it was pretty obvious. Sorry about that.

Spoj The Second.7680:

Crapgame.6519:

Spoj The Second.7680:

Brutaly.6257:

But seriously, the absolute amount of support that can be found in virtues is just meager. Sure the relative amount seems like a good trade off but if dps is what you want in pve encounter i seriously dont understand why you should invest one single point in virtues or honor.

You dont understand why we go in virtues? A 20% modifier and a 1% modifier per boon? Plus consecration cooldown which increases damage by having higher reflect uptime. And the option to get some extra condi cleanse. Do you even play the guardian? Not to mention you also have boon duration which is always nice aslong as you arent sacrificing anything for it.

No, Brutaly don’t play a Guardian at all Spoj The Second. In fact, he doesn’t even play GW2…

Maybe you should get out a bit more and read. Brutaly was probably one of the first promoting builds and then updating his sticky that you would find up top.

That was sarcasm. And I thought it was pretty obvious. Sorry about that.

No need, it was me obviously which is par for the course with me and this thread I’ll hook you up to later tonight with a few dyes

hendo.1940:

If we take 10/30/30/0/0 AH versus 20/25/0/0/25 meta, the AH build has 30% in damage modifiers + 30%+ crit dmg versus 30% (or 25% if on GS), + 100 power + X% (PotV) + 20% if using unscathed which depending on the boss can either be easy or hard to maintain. If we assume an average of five boons for PotV (might, fury, vigour are guaranteed at least) that leaves us with (on GS) a potential 50%+ in damage modifiers plus 100+ power on the meta build or 55%+ on sword versus 30%+ on the AH DPS build. The AH DPS build gives up the support utilities and DPS traits of virtues (master of consecrations, unscathed contender, absolute resolution, indomitable courage, even improved spirit weapon duration if shield of the avenger uptime is crucial for redundant traits like extra precision (when you can cap it anyway), extra toughness and AH which doesn’t matter when you’re taking huge hits at a time and are mostly using consecrations anyway.

So…

…the DPS ends up being fairly even. You just lose a bunch of support traits. If I personally could choose between having strong DPS + support versus just strong DPS, I’d take the former. You can quite easily argue that the main guardian support (consecrations) doesn’t require traiting, which is true, but then it depends on the content. If you want to have them up between fights more reliably (or chaining reflects against a boss like Alphard), wouldn’t you rather just take the virtues build which will give you equal DPS and faster cooldowns?

my 0.2 pennies

That’s one variant of AH you had there. But in reality AH builds can be anything x/x/30/x/x so you don’t actually need to necessarily give up support traits as you say. AH also gives decent sustain which is not present in that other build.

In addition, the dps build linked has to have some knights and other gear to make up for the squishiness which means it takes a hit on dps in that area whereas AH variant can go full zerk on every piece because it already gains the 300 toughness from traits alone.

It is true that 300 toughness does not work too well when you already have very high toughness but if you are using full zerk gear 300 toughness goes a long way. It is why most dps build splash in knights or other gear into their zerk builds because they know it would be way too squishy otherwise. AH does not suffer from that limitation and the 30% crit damage synergizes with your dps focus. So in reality depending on which variant of AH you use, your statements regarding support traits and toughness do not apply.