Guild Wars 2

You can be pist swear me or even report me of my topic but think for a moment about the guardian and i want to hear about your perspective about your current guardian and effectiveness pvp pve wvw
from all forum many topic talking about clases i have notest that the guardian i hear no complaining that were strong ,,OP’’ only that were underpowered in some sort
we dont have hii health poll,
no mobility,
no long range wep acces,
no condition (or chains) acces,
i want to hear more BUT……
i want to hear some good parts about the guardian

only thing guardians are needed is the 3rd hammer chain skill, and swiftness aoe “bots”.

I’d say guardians are one of the more balanced classes right now. Aside from some issues with spirit weapons, most of our skills are useful and have viable applications in a variety of builds, from consecrations, to shouts, to meditations (the last of which were given a nice buff recently). We don’t have any “terrible” weapons and our dps is actually very good for a class with so many defensive buffs. We’re also always useful in groups in dungeons and fractals thanks to reflects, blocks, stability, blinds, group heals and group condition removal, none of which is unwelcome. We certainly have a lot to offer.

I’d say our only real shortfalls involve condition builds and mobility. Comparing that to some of the shortfalls of other classes, and it doesn’t seem so bad. O_o

We’re perfectly fine in PVE and WvW.

Guardian is never a bad addition in PVE and groups will actively seek them as they can make things much easier. Good Aegis rotations, Blinds, Reflections, Condi removal. Add in a little healing and then the good ol’ Hammer if you need it. Really shouldn’t be any complaints by anyone in the PVE realm, unless maybe an open world player being jealous of the Usain Bolt warriors. I’m never even against a second guard in my party, I’ll happy play second fiddle and swap to a 46202 DPS build Yay big numbers!

WvW guardians are a staple. Pack 2 of them in every frontline party for optimal results. Pull out that hammer and press 3 while attacking to lock them down and let the necros wipe them out. Honestly just about as simple as that. Toss in the swiftness trains and what not. Ohh, you don’t like fighting in a large group, prefer the roaming? Ok, Meditation! Focus bomb them with a quick JI into whirling wrath and ohh… they’re dead already…

I could see how some may have complaints in PVP/Roaming though, we lack a true condi build and well, condi builds are the biggest cheese in the game. GW2 did a terrible job with conditions and well, they just left guardians out of the mix. Still, I’m no pro, hate PVP in general for this game (usually love it) but I’ve done pretty well with Meditation builds and that little buff we got recently (it’s not huge but it’s something).

In WvW Guardians are very wanted. They offer everything a group could possibly want: Swiftness, Stability, Condition Removal, Damage Prevention… A WvW group (no matter how big or small) will never turn down a Guardian. Even a bad or mediocre Guardian can be extremely useful.

In PvP Guardians feel more or less balanced (in my opinion and I don’t play other professions often). There are some issues with the profession, but other professions also have their own issues. The biggest problem a Guardian has in PvP is that a few other professions can fill the roles a Guardian can play and do so as effective as a Guardian for slightly less effort.

If both classes are of the same skill level it would be very difficult if not impossible to beat an Engi, Ele or Necro. The best you could hope for is to hold out for help.

So yeah, due to inattention we’ve become the underdog.

The new meta seems to be 2 Eles and another bunker. Some people keep playing guardian because they are comfortable with it. But more commonly its 2 eles and an engie.

We are still fine in WvW and PVE but our long cd are making us less desirable in spvp.

Relentliss.2170:

If both classes are of the same skill level it would be very difficult if not impossible to beat an Engi, Ele or Necro. The best you could hope for is to hold out for help.

I don’t entirely agree. I have no issues with Engi and Necros. I’d have to be top notch to face Eles though. In all we can pretty much hold our own vs most classes.

From what i’ve seen the new meta are normally x/x/6/6/x, Staff, supplying might and heals to Ele’s, or >insert sustain dmg here< classes.

Saiyan.1704:

Relentliss.2170:

If both classes are of the same skill level it would be very difficult if not impossible to beat an Engi, Ele or Necro. The best you could hope for is to hold out for help.

I don’t entirely agree. I have no issues with Engi and Necros. I’d have to be top notch to face Eles though. In all we can pretty much hold our own vs most classes.

From what i’ve seen the new meta are normally x/x/6/6/x, Staff, supplying might and heals to Ele’s, or >insert sustain dmg here< classes.

You talking about killing or holding out? When I play my Engie I can kill about 5/6 guardians. The 6th holds out a long time. I consider myself average.

Necros are a 50/50 mixed bag as their specs vary so much. They just last forever with their double health pool.

50/50 meaning power or condi i guess? necro run exactly 2 builds in pvp.

PvE: any thing works here
WvW (raids): still useful, albeit mostly boring
WvW (duels): strong
WvW (roaming): useless and hopeless
PvP: Guardians no longer are required

Yep, is Guardian in a good spot (as always): I did replace my Guard for my Warr in June and even after the Warr nerf my Warr is still well ahead in proficiency and fun.

I’m not sure if I agree that roaming Guardians are useless and hopeless. They have a few drawbacks (slow as hell), but they can still contribute a lot. Granting boons and removing conditions is never not useful, neither is stacking Might, offering Swiftness and Stability or dealing good damage. (I’m not saying a single build can accomplish all those things).

Is a Guardian required for roaming? No. But that doesn’t make them useless. Ideally, no profession should be mandatory for anything.

And, well, when roaming, you take the players you can get. You work and exploit the strengths your group does have to offer, not lament the things you can’t offer.

Ynna.8769:

I’m not sure if I agree that roaming Guardians are useless and hopeless. They have a few drawbacks (slow as hell), but they can still contribute a lot. Granting boons and removing conditions is never not useful, neither is stacking Might, offering Swiftness and Stability or dealing good damage. (I’m not saying a single build can accomplish all those things).

You are thinking more in the “N vs N” small skirmish component of the term “roaming”, in which Guardians is ok. I was thinking more in the “solo roaming”, which means being able to cut down dolyaks, take camps and also to kill lone players without assist. And in those task, as lone roamer, Guardians have a big “nope” over His heads: they are slow moving around the map, they lack tools to properly disengage or evade encounters against the odds. If you build for sustain, you’ll not be able to kill enemies, if you build for the kills, you will not be able to sustain yoursefl enough. Other classes can outpace you while keeping enough punch to kill foes and enough sustain to being able to fight outnumbered if you have advantage in skill. That doesn’t happens using a Guardian.

“IN.A.GOOD.PLACE.TM”

This is a joke

oh, excuse me, guardians are “bad” at one niche of the game (solo roaming) that was never ever focus of any balancing?

pve: reflects are as useful as ever, stability has it’s place, only class i would swap guard for would be a mesmer or maybe engineer

pvp: meditation build melts faces when dueling any other berserker class, ranging from “strong” to “hard counters”

wvw: GWEN anyone? ok, they are less than amazing in solo roaming such a shame, totally ruins the class.

Okey from the preview skill changes the devs are rly rly ignoring the guardian pvp discussion wep skills acces and i find it near perfect ignorance towards the guardian shield skills and now engy and warr share a same skill use,
the bane signet (do enyone of you use it ever at that colld ?)
mace + warr
non guard
a small good news we get ,,Retreat reduced from 60s to 40s’’ good ?
I would really want to get a vip preview on the skill changes(guardian) to start crying till the changes patch are up

to OP: do you even play Guardian?!
I really do not see any problem in both WvW and PvE for Guardians. On the contrary I feel it is one of the most consistent professions.
For PvP: I rarely saw a competitive team without a Guardian.

I strongly advise you to read the sticky posts on the Guardian GW2 Forum.

Buran.3796:

Ynna.8769:

I’m not sure if I agree that roaming Guardians are useless and hopeless. They have a few drawbacks (slow as hell), but they can still contribute a lot. Granting boons and removing conditions is never not useful, neither is stacking Might, offering Swiftness and Stability or dealing good damage. (I’m not saying a single build can accomplish all those things).

You are thinking more in the “N vs N” small skirmish component of the term “roaming”, in which Guardians is ok. I was thinking more in the “solo roaming”, which means being able to cut down dolyaks, take camps and also to kill lone players without assist.

Fair point. I’ve done this on occasion and doing this is extremely annoying/difficult for Guardians.

That being said, I don’t think this is the sort of content you should balance the game about. If this is the only thing that Guardians aren’t as good at as other professions, I’d say Guardians are in a pretty good spot.

(And since I only really play Guardian, I can’t really guess at how hard this solo-roaming is for other professions.)

adozu.6398:

pvp: meditation build melts faces when dueling any other berserker class, ranging from “strong” to “hard counters”

Meditation is strong in duels, duels have small impact in high level PvP matches, in which mobility, sustain and support weight a lot more. In the past Guardians used to be the quintaessential holders, but this is not longer true. In the 2-3 last big tournaments (including ToL 2) half of the top teams didn’t use a Guardian at all, a meta which is currently the dominating pattern in NA and is being increasingly popular in EU.

So, yes, Guardians are decent at PvE (in which every class works), in duels (a game mode which lacks official support) and is still relevant in WvW raids, but they don’t work at all as roamers and they are fading in PvP, replaced by other classes which fit better in most of roles.

Guardian hammer need to be like ele one (at least similar skills) becouse wariors hammer is similar to eles.

or at least make some new weapon skills that we can choose to have.

Ok after reading all the comments,this is what i think, are guardians a balanced class?

no.this is why.think about it, most of the other classes can have HYBRID builds which can allow them to fight with damage/cc/ conditions . As for guardians we rely purely on direct damage.if we try to go with hybrid builds,we end up sacrificing so much,sure we fit nicely as a support role but on a 1v1 situation in a skirmish oh boy you need to be really good..for all those who said that guardians are great for wvw ,sure i agree but its always because youre playing as a support role, not as a roamer,if you do try to roam there is always something you end up sacrificing and other roaming classes will kill you which is fine as long as you are given a chance to defeat them,it all comes down to cool downs of your skills. as for pve great class,thats understandable because youre fighting predictable AI ,but once again what do we have to sacrifice? HP.a full zerker guard with full power and precison traited ends up having 11k health and we are supposed to be a melee class.

finally lets get to the nitty gritty of things for pvp.

most classes have got another class/build that hard counters them unless if youre playing a hybrid build which allows you to cater to different types of builds.with the guardian the issue is the cooldowns are way way too high.elite skill (renewed focus , which is the only viable elite) has such a high cd and its only lasts for 2 sec.the ranger signet of stone or the warrior endure pain dwarfs it, as the duration on those skills are way higher and they dont keep you stuck in an animation,thats a really big thing.please pay attention to this anet. if i was to go for a shouts build then the cool downs on my meditation skills would be too high vice versa .which makes hybrid build quite poor.

i can tell because i play a lot of pvp.once a guardian uses his elite and healing skill,most likely he’s cooked.as he has minimal mobility and cc.i can understand why anet doesnt want to give guardians mobility as it would make guardians op, but really without mobility or movement impeding conditions,guardians will eventually be discarded as a choice for pvp as the new meta is moving towards roaming builds.

2 things you can do anet to fix all these issues are:

1.INTRODUCE MOVEMENT IMPEDING SKILLS to the guardian,they would still be different to warriors as warriors have both mobility and movement impeding skills and thats fine if we only have movement impeding skills. mind you warriors also have great damage mitigation like endure pain and an awesome cleanse (cleansing ire and berserkers stance) so i dont think that it would be unfair,i mean you did give mesmers torment on auto attack.so it wouldn’t be a great deal to give guardians cripple on certain skills

2. REDUCE COOL DOWNS ON SKILLS ,this alone will revolutionize the guardian as a class trying to keep up to the meta,cool downs shouldn’t be anything more than 27 seconds untraited.this change here will allow for so much build diversity.

leonidash.9416:

1.INTRODUCE MOVEMENT IMPEDING SKILLS to the guardian,they would still be different to warriors as warriors have both mobility and movement impeding skills and thats fine if we only have movement impeding skills. mind you warriors also have great damage mitigation like endure pain and an awesome cleanse (cleansing ire and berserkers stance) so i dont think that it would be unfair,i mean you did give mesmers torment on auto attack.so it wouldn’t be a great deal to give guardians cripple on certain skills

2. REDUCE COOL DOWNS ON SKILLS ,this alone will revolutionize the guardian as a class trying to keep up to the meta,cool downs shouldn’t be anything more than 27 seconds untraited.this change here will allow for so much build diversity.

This is what we have been calling for since Day 1. Add in a legitimate condition build and our class would be in a much better place.

Our class don´t need condition builds. Only a few more balanced and viable powerbuilds.

i agree guardian needs less reliance on long cd’s in order to be viable in competitive pvp. when I play my engi its ridiculous how I can kite around LoSing 2/3 players for 5 minutes, all but one leave, I come back and beat him 1v1 because I have no cd’s and can heal to full in 20s. On guardian that would never even be close to possible because 1) I’d die while outnumbered within 10s due to no disengage; 2) I’d lose the 1v1 afterwards because I’d have no cds

adozu.6398:

50/50 meaning power or condi i guess? necro run exactly 2 builds in pvp.

Depends on what build you are running and what build they are running. Eg terrormancer is very effective at shutting down med guardian as he has no stability.

Relentliss.2170:

adozu.6398:

50/50 meaning power or condi i guess? necro run exactly 2 builds in pvp.

Depends on what build you are running and what build they are running. Eg terrormancer is very effective at shutting down med guardian as he has no stability.

completely wrong, medi guard is one of the very very few specs that can beat a terrormancer 1v1

leonidash.9416:

no.this is why.think about it, most of the other classes can have HYBRID builds which can allow them to fight with damage/cc/ conditions . As for guardians we rely purely on direct damage.if we try to go with hybrid builds,we end up sacrificing so muc

I run a hybrid build, x/x/6/x/x
I’ve switched from Carrion to Berserker to Knight’s how ever I please with little to no issues. Guardians ARE one of the most balanced class in the game. Maybe not better in terms of one build owning all, like the war or engi, but we definitely have more build diversities.

What gets me the most are peels. Darn near every class can peel away immediately like the warrior. Or can kock down a crown like the Engi or mesmer. Yet us spear head guardians can’t keep you where we want you unless we change our entire build to Immobilize/knockdown, which doesn’t work for every build. And at best, that’s only for 1 person.

Most guardians have at least one skill that they can switch out before a match. What we need is a skill that causes Cripple if used in a Light combo field. It wouldn’t break us at all and we don’t have to change our entire build for it

Booms.2594:

Relentliss.2170:

adozu.6398:

50/50 meaning power or condi i guess? necro run exactly 2 builds in pvp.

Depends on what build you are running and what build they are running. Eg terrormancer is very effective at shutting down med guardian as he has no stability.

completely wrong, medi guard is one of the very very few specs that can beat a terrormancer 1v1

Fear Fear Fear …more fear if your still alive… your dead… yeah great counter. Unless the guy is really bad I don’t see it happening. And yeah I’ve killed a few terrormancers but they were not great players. And if I was running shout build vs them it would be a big stalemate as they have about 40-50k health to burn through.

Saiyan.1704:

I run a hybrid build, x/x/6/x/x
I’ve switched from Carrion to Berserker to Knight’s how ever I please with little to no issues. Guardians ARE one of the most balanced class in the game. Maybe not better in terms of one build owning all, like the war or engi, but we definitely have more build diversities.

Be interested in your observations. Was trying out some different gear set ups over the weekend and I really find the damage weak with everything except Beserker. I had some luck with Knights but only vs squishy targets.

Relentliss.2170:

Booms.2594:

Relentliss.2170:

adozu.6398:

50/50 meaning power or condi i guess? necro run exactly 2 builds in pvp.

Depends on what build you are running and what build they are running. Eg terrormancer is very effective at shutting down med guardian as he has no stability.

completely wrong, medi guard is one of the very very few specs that can beat a terrormancer 1v1

Fear Fear Fear …more fear if your still alive… your dead… yeah great counter. Unless the guy is really bad I don’t see it happening. And yeah I’ve killed a few terrormancers but they were not great players. And if I was running shout build vs them it would be a big stalemate as they have about 40-50k health to burn through.

Saiyan.1704:

I run a hybrid build, x/x/6/x/x
I’ve switched from Carrion to Berserker to Knight’s how ever I please with little to no issues. Guardians ARE one of the most balanced class in the game. Maybe not better in terms of one build owning all, like the war or engi, but we definitely have more build diversities.

Be interested in your observations. Was trying out some different gear set ups over the weekend and I really find the damage weak with everything except Beserker. I had some luck with Knights but only vs squishy targets.

try a regular 2 1 6 1 4 medi build and if youre still losing to ANY terror mancers then you suck.

Booms.2594:

Relentliss.2170:

Booms.2594:

Relentliss.2170:

adozu.6398:

50/50 meaning power or condi i guess? necro run exactly 2 builds in pvp.

Depends on what build you are running and what build they are running. Eg terrormancer is very effective at shutting down med guardian as he has no stability.

completely wrong, medi guard is one of the very very few specs that can beat a terrormancer 1v1

Fear Fear Fear …more fear if your still alive… your dead… yeah great counter. Unless the guy is really bad I don’t see it happening. And yeah I’ve killed a few terrormancers but they were not great players. And if I was running shout build vs them it would be a big stalemate as they have about 40-50k health to burn through.

Saiyan.1704:

I run a hybrid build, x/x/6/x/x
I’ve switched from Carrion to Berserker to Knight’s how ever I please with little to no issues. Guardians ARE one of the most balanced class in the game. Maybe not better in terms of one build owning all, like the war or engi, but we definitely have more build diversities.

Be interested in your observations. Was trying out some different gear set ups over the weekend and I really find the damage weak with everything except Beserker. I had some luck with Knights but only vs squishy targets.

try a regular 2 1 6 1 4 medi build and if youre still losing to ANY terror mancers then you suck.

Haha, I run a similar build: 2/0/6/2/4

AGGabriel.9230:

Okey from the preview skill changes the devs are rly rly ignoring the guardian pvp discussion wep skills acces and i find it near perfect ignorance towards the guardian shield skills and now engy and warr share a same skill use,
the bane signet (do enyone of you use it ever at that colld ?)
mace + warr
non guard
a small good news we get ,,Retreat reduced from 60s to 40s’’ good ?
I would really want to get a vip preview on the skill changes(guardian) to start crying till the changes patch are up

You came to these conclusion based on two skills getting an improvement? I would say you jumped the Grand Canyon to get to it.

Guardians are well balanced over a wide range of game elements. I think the primary issue is we don’t get much variation over the things we are good at so play is predictable, stale, etc…

Booms.2594:

Relentliss.2170:

Booms.2594:

Relentliss.2170:

adozu.6398:

50/50 meaning power or condi i guess? necro run exactly 2 builds in pvp.

Depends on what build you are running and what build they are running. Eg terrormancer is very effective at shutting down med guardian as he has no stability.

completely wrong, medi guard is one of the very very few specs that can beat a terrormancer 1v1

Fear Fear Fear …more fear if your still alive… your dead… yeah great counter. Unless the guy is really bad I don’t see it happening. And yeah I’ve killed a few terrormancers but they were not great players. And if I was running shout build vs them it would be a big stalemate as they have about 40-50k health to burn through.

Saiyan.1704:

I run a hybrid build, x/x/6/x/x
I’ve switched from Carrion to Berserker to Knight’s how ever I please with little to no issues. Guardians ARE one of the most balanced class in the game. Maybe not better in terms of one build owning all, like the war or engi, but we definitely have more build diversities.

Be interested in your observations. Was trying out some different gear set ups over the weekend and I really find the damage weak with everything except Beserker. I had some luck with Knights but only vs squishy targets.

try a regular 2 1 6 1 4 medi build and if youre still losing to ANY terror mancers then you suck.

Meh I think you are killing bad players and calling that good. I kill a lot of bad/average Necros but don’t consider that a big deal. A good Terrormancer will kite you like crazy and wear you down. The fight will be very prolonged. When you hit the phase where your abilities are on CD you will be in trouble. Usually, the fight is determined by whoever has buddies that rotate around faster.

Relentliss.2170:

Booms.2594:

Relentliss.2170:

Booms.2594:

Relentliss.2170:

adozu.6398:

50/50 meaning power or condi i guess? necro run exactly 2 builds in pvp.

Depends on what build you are running and what build they are running. Eg terrormancer is very effective at shutting down med guardian as he has no stability.

completely wrong, medi guard is one of the very very few specs that can beat a terrormancer 1v1

Fear Fear Fear …more fear if your still alive… your dead… yeah great counter. Unless the guy is really bad I don’t see it happening. And yeah I’ve killed a few terrormancers but they were not great players. And if I was running shout build vs them it would be a big stalemate as they have about 40-50k health to burn through.

Saiyan.1704:

I run a hybrid build, x/x/6/x/x
I’ve switched from Carrion to Berserker to Knight’s how ever I please with little to no issues. Guardians ARE one of the most balanced class in the game. Maybe not better in terms of one build owning all, like the war or engi, but we definitely have more build diversities.

Be interested in your observations. Was trying out some different gear set ups over the weekend and I really find the damage weak with everything except Beserker. I had some luck with Knights but only vs squishy targets.

try a regular 2 1 6 1 4 medi build and if youre still losing to ANY terror mancers then you suck.

Meh I think you are killing bad players and calling that good. I kill a lot of bad/average Necros but don’t consider that a big deal. A good Terrormancer will kite you like crazy and wear you down. The fight will be very prolonged. When you hit the phase where your abilities are on CD you will be in trouble. Usually, the fight is determined by whoever has buddies that rotate around faster.

I duel noscoc.

Saiyan.1704:

leonidash.9416:

no.this is why.think about it, most of the other classes can have HYBRID builds which can allow them to fight with damage/cc/ conditions . As for guardians we rely purely on direct damage.if we try to go with hybrid builds,we end up sacrificing so muc

I run a hybrid build, x/x/6/x/x
I’ve switched from Carrion to Berserker to Knight’s how ever I please with little to no issues. Guardians ARE one of the most balanced class in the game. Maybe not better in terms of one build owning all, like the war or engi, but we definitely have more build diversities.

What gets me the most are peels. Darn near every class can peel away immediately like the warrior. Or can kock down a crown like the Engi or mesmer. Yet us spear head guardians can’t keep you where we want you unless we change our entire build to Immobilize/knockdown, which doesn’t work for every build. And at best, that’s only for 1 person.

Most guardians have at least one skill that they can switch out before a match. What we need is a skill that causes Cripple if used in a Light combo field. It wouldn’t break us at all and we don’t have to change our entire build for it

see what you are saying kinda makes sense although condi guard,i dont know about that but on an overall note sure i agree with you but i think what you didnt get is my opinion of what a balanced class is.to me its not about not having any weaknesses, but what a balanced is,its a class that allows for many variations in builds aka hybrid builds and capabilities as a class without sacrificing too much i.e being able to DEAL with everything but not necessarily beat everything as that would depend on skill. in other words what you said about being able to peel away is somewhat relevant,i definitely agree with your idea on cripple.its maybe the most important change a guardian needs together with lower cooldowns as we have poor mobility.

now that change is what would make us a balanced class. other classes are more balanced as they have more variety,a good example is a pu mesmer which has a hybrid direct/condi damage and a lot of stealth.why do you think guardians are being removed slowly from high tier pvp matches.well the answer is cooldowns and mobility(peeling away)

Buran.3796:

WvW (roaming): useless and hopeless

I disagree entirely. I run a meditation build in WvW and roam just fine. The problem is that I’m pigeonholed into using traveler’s runes just to be able to keep up, which limits the potential that could be better suited with a more offensive rune set. And that’s not even counting the fact that guardians don’t have any sort of soft CC aside from a small handful of immobilizes that don’t synergize well with each other.

Now? been a away for a while?.

Guardian can’t

1. escape
   and
2. heal up like Engi, Ele, Warrior and Thief…

Just saying.

I don’t play/care about pvp

Guardians:

Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.

The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)

Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.

ArchonWing.9480:

I don’t play/care about pvp

Guardians:

Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.

The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)

Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.

but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp

Booms.2594:

ArchonWing.9480:

I don’t play/care about pvp

Guardians:

Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.

The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)

Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.

but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp

If your opponent is are complete kittens, sure why not, thou the same can be said for every other class in the game…

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

ArchonWing.9480:

I don’t play/care about pvp

Guardians:

Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.

The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)

Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.

but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp

If your opponent is are complete kittens, sure why not, thou the same can be said for every other class in the game…

im talking about top (top top top) tier pvp

Booms.2594:

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

ArchonWing.9480:

I don’t play/care about pvp

Guardians:

Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.

The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)

Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.

but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp

If your opponent is are complete kittens, sure why not, thou the same can be said for every other class in the game…

im talking about top (top top top) tier pvp

Sadly design should not be based about what the top 1% can do with it, but what your average joe can.

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

ArchonWing.9480:

I don’t play/care about pvp

Guardians:

Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.

The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)

Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.

but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp

If your opponent is are complete kittens, sure why not, thou the same can be said for every other class in the game…

im talking about top (top top top) tier pvp

Sadly design should not be based about what the top 1% can do with it, but what your average joe can.

Apolo, i think some classes are designed/update for that matter.

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

ArchonWing.9480:

I don’t play/care about pvp

Guardians:

Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.

The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)

Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.

but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp

If your opponent is are complete kittens, sure why not, thou the same can be said for every other class in the game…

im talking about top (top top top) tier pvp

Sadly design should not be based about what the top 1% can do with it, but what your average joe can.

Actually, designing the game balance around the average player is terrible in terms of making it competitive. Games between randoms are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things because players simply aren’t aware of the counters and often times they are decided simply due to whoever plays less poorly.

Games should be designed at the skill cap. Other players can rise to it. But if the game is broken then no amount of rising will fix it. And how can you expect a game to have a high skill cap when you’re balancing it relative to the floor? The result would be extremely shallow, and then you’d get things with the depth of open world content.

It’s a bit of irony because that would mean a lot of what people including what myself post would not be that relevant, but it’s also true, and yes I think the comments of more experienced players do override my own comments. Too many posts on these forums create a paradigm around the poster’s own self, and thus is an attempt to balance the game around themselves. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it must be taken with a grain of salt. This is especially true when people start talking about nerfing classes they have never played and the most experience they’ve had is looking up that class’s traits and skills on the wiki.

ArchonWing.9480:

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

ArchonWing.9480:

I don’t play/care about pvp

Guardians:

Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.

The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)

Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.

but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp

If your opponent is are complete kittens, sure why not, thou the same can be said for every other class in the game…

im talking about top (top top top) tier pvp

Sadly design should not be based about what the top 1% can do with it, but what your average joe can.

Actually, designing the game balance around the average player is terrible in terms of making it competitive. Games between randoms are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things because players simply aren’t aware of the counters and often times they are decided simply due to whoever plays less poorly.

Games should be designed at the skill cap. Other players can rise to it. But if the game is broken then no amount of rising will fix it. And how can you expect a game to have a high skill cap when you’re balancing it relative to the floor?

5 Randoms in a pug != 5 Average Joes In a Premade Team.

The games that balance and design around the top 1% of premade teams with under 20ms ping connections, invariably fail because that does not represent the bast majority of their player base. Kind of like this one did on lunch when pvp crashed and burned.

There is a reason world of Warcraft has a bigger pvp crowd, being a pve game and being this a pvp king successor.

Apolo.5942:

ArchonWing.9480:

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

ArchonWing.9480:

I don’t play/care about pvp

Guardians:

Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.

The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)

Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.

but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp

If your opponent is are complete kittens, sure why not, thou the same can be said for every other class in the game…

im talking about top (top top top) tier pvp

Sadly design should not be based about what the top 1% can do with it, but what your average joe can.

Actually, designing the game balance around the average player is terrible in terms of making it competitive. Games between randoms are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things because players simply aren’t aware of the counters and often times they are decided simply due to whoever plays less poorly.

Games should be designed at the skill cap. Other players can rise to it. But if the game is broken then no amount of rising will fix it. And how can you expect a game to have a high skill cap when you’re balancing it relative to the floor?

5 Randoms in a pug != 5 Average Joes In a Premade Team.

Relative to best, they might as well be. And besides, there’s a whole host of high level play in between.

The games that balance and design around the top 1% of premade teams with under 20ms ping connections, invariably fail because that does not represent the bast majority of their player base. Kind of like this one did on lunch when pvp crashed and burned.

There is a reason world of Warcraft has a bigger pvp crowd, being a pve game and being this a pvp king successor.

Oh, we’re talking about Blizzard now? You know what one of their top pvp games is? Starcraft 2. They focus balance exclusively on the stats of the top leagues and tournaments. I’m sure that game didn’t sell well at all. Or its predecessor, lol. Let’s just say they don’t take in account what platinum league players say very much.

Or just maybe, just maybe, Blizzard’s a bigger name?

Of course, Blizzard’s UI making makes it far more accessible to casual players, which Arenanet needs to learn.

i think what sizer said about why he loves this game “it’s actually balanced around high skill level rather than the average baddies unlike virtually every other mmo” should be considered

ArchonWing.9480:

Apolo.5942:

ArchonWing.9480:

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

ArchonWing.9480:

I don’t play/care about pvp

Guardians:

Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.

The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)

Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.

but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp

If your opponent is are complete kittens, sure why not, thou the same can be said for every other class in the game…

im talking about top (top top top) tier pvp

Sadly design should not be based about what the top 1% can do with it, but what your average joe can.

Actually, designing the game balance around the average player is terrible in terms of making it competitive. Games between randoms are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things because players simply aren’t aware of the counters and often times they are decided simply due to whoever plays less poorly.

Games should be designed at the skill cap. Other players can rise to it. But if the game is broken then no amount of rising will fix it. And how can you expect a game to have a high skill cap when you’re balancing it relative to the floor?

5 Randoms in a pug != 5 Average Joes In a Premade Team.

Relative to best, they might as well be. And besides, there’s a whole host of high level play in between.

The games that balance and design around the top 1% of premade teams with under 20ms ping connections, invariably fail because that does not represent the bast majority of their player base. Kind of like this one did on lunch when pvp crashed and burned.

There is a reason world of Warcraft has a bigger pvp crowd, being a pve game and being this a pvp king successor.

Oh, we’re talking about Blizzard now? You know what one of their top pvp games is? Starcraft 2. They focus balance exclusively on the stats of the top leagues and tournaments. I’m sure that game didn’t sell well at all. Or its predecessor, lol. Let’s just say they don’t take in account what platinum league players say very much.

Or just maybe, just maybe, Blizzard’s a bigger name?

Of course, Blizzard’s UI making makes it far more accessible to casual players, which Arenanet needs to learn.

You wanna know what is even bigger than SC2, LoL, they constantly make changed based on feedback from average joe, and what they perceive to be the general feeling of the player base.

Should high skill lvl players be consulted, certainly, but they should be consulted in regards to fine tuning balance, not on general game design. Does a Skill need an extra second CD? sure go ask the top 1%, having a class that has both its signature skills being fixed ground targeting on a game based on fluid dynamic combat, that’s quite beyond the high skill lvl players, regardless of whether they can make it work or not.

Check out Tap Dat Mouse on YouTube. He has some great builds and advice on how to play the guardian.

IMHO, the guardian is the most interesting class to play. I love the ebb and flow of combat, the look of heavy armor with a Greatsword, and the meditations are some of the coolest skills in the game!

By the way, OP, I hope English is a second language for you. No offense intended…

Apolo.5942:

ArchonWing.9480:

Apolo.5942:

ArchonWing.9480:

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

Apolo.5942:

Booms.2594:

ArchonWing.9480:

I don’t play/care about pvp

Guardians:

Great in PvE
Great in wvw >3 people, dominant and mandatory as numbers increase to the point where compositions demand at least 1 guardian per party in zergs
Mediocre at solo roaming wvw though not necessarily hopeless but nothing compares with a thief anyways.
In general the presence of guard stacks benefits guardian greatly due to their low base health.

The underdog IMO is the necromancer, and the class in the worst spot. It is the worst class in pve and while great in large scale wvw tends to be a poor roamer. (Good duelist, but much like the guardian has little in the way of disengage and pursuit)

Note that I judge in relative terms. You can definitely roam on any class but some are just easier than others to get results.

but then it also wins every 1v1 and 2v2 in the game for pvp

If your opponent is are complete kittens, sure why not, thou the same can be said for every other class in the game…

im talking about top (top top top) tier pvp

Sadly design should not be based about what the top 1% can do with it, but what your average joe can.

Actually, designing the game balance around the average player is terrible in terms of making it competitive. Games between randoms are irrelevant in the grand scheme of things because players simply aren’t aware of the counters and often times they are decided simply due to whoever plays less poorly.

Games should be designed at the skill cap. Other players can rise to it. But if the game is broken then no amount of rising will fix it. And how can you expect a game to have a high skill cap when you’re balancing it relative to the floor?

5 Randoms in a pug != 5 Average Joes In a Premade Team.

Relative to best, they might as well be. And besides, there’s a whole host of high level play in between.

The games that balance and design around the top 1% of premade teams with under 20ms ping connections, invariably fail because that does not represent the bast majority of their player base. Kind of like this one did on lunch when pvp crashed and burned.

There is a reason world of Warcraft has a bigger pvp crowd, being a pve game and being this a pvp king successor.

Oh, we’re talking about Blizzard now? You know what one of their top pvp games is? Starcraft 2. They focus balance exclusively on the stats of the top leagues and tournaments. I’m sure that game didn’t sell well at all. Or its predecessor, lol. Let’s just say they don’t take in account what platinum league players say very much.

Or just maybe, just maybe, Blizzard’s a bigger name?

Of course, Blizzard’s UI making makes it far more accessible to casual players, which Arenanet needs to learn.

You wanna know what is even bigger than SC2, LoL, they constantly make changed based on feedback from average joe, and what they perceive to be the general feeling of the player base.

Should high skill lvl players be consulted, certainly, but they should be consulted in regards to fine tuning balance, not on general game design. Does a Skill need an extra second CD? sure go ask the top 1%, having a class that has both its signature skills being fixed ground targeting on a game based on fluid dynamic combat, that’s quite beyond the high skill lvl players, regardless of whether they can make it work or not.

Which still doesn’t address my main point. I was talking about balance and competitive gameplay since the topic was win/loss, not general usability or accessibility. The average player can always get better. The game changes and for example, going zerker in dungeons is no big secret that only the top players can do. That viewpoint might have been different two years ago. So I ask, if you balance the game around the average person, then it will simply become imbalanced as they get better.

Some viewpoints are just more valuable than others. And there being 8 professions in the game, it would take a long time just to play 1 to a high level, and thus perspective of the whole picture is already hard enough to gather— that doesn’t really leave much room for noise. Now, I’m not saying that people should be forbidden from balance input, but at the same time if it gets ignored, then I can’t really complain either.

Besides, where do you think the “meta” comes from— builds made by top players that the average joe copies.

But can balance be achieved if the game is fundamentally design flawed?. Its no big secret this games pvp failed miserably.

You have classes where 2/3ds of its signature skills are useless in 2/3rds of the game.

Classes static over time ground target skills in a game designed around fluid moving combat.

Gross advantage of ranged over melee in 2 out of the 3 game modes of the game.

The game is fundamentally design flawed it goes beyond simple balancing and its essentially dead pvp and wvw show it very much.