Guild Wars 2

This is a topic I’ve been curious about for a while now. What kind of change do these spells do you think would bring them into the meta game, in any setting?

I would like for this post to be a place for people to discuss this and throw some ideas around.

We saw a few changes to them several patches ago, but they’re still utterly unused. Personally, I struggle to identify one or two key changes that would encourage Guardians to give up other critical skills.

What are your thoughts?

I haven’t played guardian in competitive PvP, but I have used a spirit weapon build in casual PvP. I’ve also used it in WvW, but it has obvious problems there.

Now, keep in mind that my build is an all spirit weapon build. That is, it’s a gimmick build. It takes all spirit weapons and all spirit weapon traits (or at least all the ones I could fit). It’s possible that spirit weapons would be better outside of a gimimck build, but I haven’t tried using them in that context. For reference, the build I use is: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fVAQNArdSlsApKoFBxOI8DRh8gkVdLDdp6JBecVMA-T1BGwAkV/x9+DSV+B4UKIWfjelgHeSBkC4ilRA-w.

A few things I’ve noticed are as follows:

1. No stability on the spirit weapons. This is often a critically key component to a guardian’s kitten nal as it helps them hold nodes in PvP, or just prevent them from being CC’d in general. They also have the best access to skills that grant stability to allies, meaning that they’ll often be relied upon in order to contribute this during team fights. This deficiency makes it so that guardians lose one of their key strengths in exchange for something that is not one of their key strengths.

2. Unreliable stun break. The shield has a stun break, but it can be quite unreliable. You have to have the shield summoned to begin with, and if the shield ends up exploding in AoE or runs off somewhere, it might not be around to help you when you need it. Additionally, this stun break does not provide stability or any other effect, making it arguably the weakest stun break the guardian has.

3. Poor condition clearing. The bow can clear conditions, but it’s not very good at it. If they bow gets CC’d or explodes, then the condition clearing is also gone.

4. Uncontrollable positioning. This affects particularly the shield and bow. The shield will occasionally pop it’s bubble even though it’s not in an ideal position. For instance, the guardian can be on a PvP node against a ranger, and the shield may decide to pop it’s shield off the node, meaning the guardian make take some fire or possibly have to move off the node in order to benefit from the shield. There’s no way to manually order the shield to sit in the position you want it in. You also can’t really tell the bow who to target with its shots, so it may remove conditions from you when your ally is melting to death a little ways away.

5. No way to have it all. You can’t take all 4 spirit weapons, so you always need to give something up. If you give up the sword, you lose damage. If you give up the hammer, you lose CC. If you give up the shield, you lose defence. If you give up the bow, you lose healing. With my build, I usually use the sword, hammer, and then either the shield or bow depending on the matchup (I find I use shield most often). A more defensive build would maybe be inclined to use the shield and bow, and give up either one or both of the sword and/or hammer.

Compare this to something like meditations, where you can have damage, two stun breaks that don’t need to be pre-summoned, fairly reliable condition cleansing including one full cleanse, healing, and at least one blink. It’s much easier to fit everything you need in a medi build than it is a spirit weapon build. Warriors have a similar case with stances. Endure pain, berserker’s stance, and balanced stance are the holy trinity of stances because they provide a well rounded package the warrior needs for utility. You generally can’t take frenzy because you have to give up one of the other critical things.

6. They die. They don’t make any effort to dodge AoEs, and you can’t reposition them to keep them safe. This is especially a problem with the bow, because there’s no reason for it to be in combat at all. If they die, then it can put some gaping holes in your defences, or really neuter your damage or CC capabilities. With something like meditations, the opponent can’t really counter them so directly (in fact, they can’t even be interrupted, aside from litany of wrath, but that thing needs to be buffed ), so there’s less risk involved in those utilities.

7. Too much investment for traits. In order to get all the spirit weapon traits in my build, it requires 6 in zeal and 4 in radiance. In general, these are not commonly used trait lines, and they’re missing some other key things that guardians often use. First of all, toughness, vitality, and healing power are lower by not investing into honour and valour heavily, and this spirit weapon build will also be missing things like selfless daring, absolute resolution, and fiery wrath. In comparison, meditations have 3 key traits in honour, which has generally more desirable minor traits and gives you much more flexibility for the rest of the build.

8. Insane leash range. This is maybe a bit of a double-edged sword, because it can be useful as well as harmful. The spirit weapons seem to have a very large leash range, to the point where you can be on the mid node, and they can be on one of the side nodes fighting people there. The problem with this is that the AI can make them wander over there after someone, and there’s no easy way to recall them like you can do with ranger pets. If your hammer runs up a hill after someone and then you need it to bash the thief that’s on your back, you’re out of luck. If you pop the active skill with the thief targeted, the hammer will just use it in open space and it will be wasted.

So, what to change? Well I don’t know that I’m the best to give suggestions, but I think a first step might be to condense the number of traits that spirit weapons use. To begin with, A Fire Inside requires a 4 point investment in radiance, which is an uncommon choice even in the most experimental of builds. If it was, say, rolled into the Wrathful Spirits trait (zeal grandmaster), it would free up 4 trait points for other things without sacrificing the potential power of spirit weapons.

Furthermore, it’s a bit odd to have two cooldown traits. You need one trait to lower the cooldown for the actual spirit weapon summons, and then another one to lower the cooldown for the active skills for the spirit weapons. This is very uninteresting as far as traits go. Perhaps Spirit-Weapon Mastery could be rolled into Expeditious Spirit, and a new trait could be made that would let spirit weapons do something else interesting, like… I dunno, give periodic regen in an AoE or something.

As far as the spirit weapons themselves, the shield would be much better if it wasn’t prone to wandering off on it’s own. Reducing the leash range for all the spirit weapons would perhaps be helpful (and more sensible), but I think the shield should be on your butt at all times. It serves no purpose for it to go wandering off on it’s own because it’s not really helping anyone at that point. It would be nice if it could be manually moved around, although GW2 doesn’t seem to be capable of handling that functionality yet.

I think adding a short duration stack of stability to the shield’s active skill would make it a bit better. Maybe even make it so that the guardian automatically gets one on use, and then it provides one to whoever it bounces too. Alternatively, let it apply it’s aegis and weakness (and maybe stability, if added) in an AoE instead of relying on a bounce mechanic. This would make it more reliable and less clunky, as well as making it better able to contribute in team fights.

It would also be nice if the bow made an effort not to get itself killed because it’s not going to be helping anyone if it sits in a meteor shower dying. Again, if it would be manually repositioned, that would be nice, but that doesn’t seem to be a possibility. It would be nice if it could fire while moving, so it could stay with you much more easily.

I’d also like to see the bow have additional condition removal power. Perhaps two conditions per shot (maybe lowering the shot frequency slightly), and having the active skill also remove a few conditions instead of only doing healing. Alternatively, maybe have it so that it can shoot multiple allies at once instead of just one, so that it can actually contribute quite significantly in team fights.

I think the hammer and sword are in fairly good spots (especially the hammer). The only thing I’d like to see from them is that the active abilities teleport the weapon to the target. As it stands, the sword and hammer will use their active abilities even if the target is out of range, completely wasting them. If they were able to teleport to the target, they’d be much easier to use in combos and coordinated team strikes, and the issue with the weapons wandering off on their own would be less problematic.

As for use in WvW, I don’t think you can really fix them in the current state. It has the same problem as minionmancers and turret engineers. The things just explode too easily and contribute too little to team fights to make them useful. You could perhaps use a spirit weapon build for a roaming group, but it would be very easy for your enemy to just turn the opposite direction and walk away if they wanted to.

For PvE… I dunno, it’s a bit tough to suggest things there because most things will work in PvE. The shield does see some use due to the projectile defence, but otherwise the only way to make them viable in that format is to have them pump out extreme damage.

Well, that’s the best I’ve got unfortunately. Hopefully a better player with more experience will be able to give better suggestions. And no, making them into engineer kits is not a solution.

Yamsandjams.3267:

(…)
Well, that’s the best I’ve got unfortunately. Hopefully a better player with more experience will be able to give better suggestions. And no, making them into engineer kits is not a solution.

^this to.

Yam already said everything what is wrong about SW, wich i cant find eneugh +1.
At the momment im hoping Anet will change the traits on HoT release for something usable outside PVE.

As i stated on other thread, one way to bring SW to a possible meta would be a complete rework or a massive (overpowered) overhaul to keep SW in pair with the updates that other classes got over time to be viable in combat or be in pair with meta.

I gave some of those OP’ed brainstorming ideias in other thread not so long ago.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/spirit-weapon-build/first#post4951446

They used to have much lower damage but were invincible, this meant they were decent in PvE (not meta though).

Frankly though I think a few things should happen

1: Merge their traits till you have about half as many as now & all in a single trait line. (having to spend 1/2- 3/4 of your traits on them sucks, especially when it still leaves you so weak to so many things)

2: Redesign them to be more akin to mobile invulnerable banners that follow the guardian around granting a passive bonus & can be activated to grant an active bonus in exchange for being used up (unless traited)

For instance, sword could grant + condition damage & the active could cause allies next X attacks to inflict bleed or torment.

Hammer could grant + power and the active could cause the guardians next attack to be a knock down.

Bow could grant + precision & its active could be a condi clear with AOE heal.

Shield could grant + vitality & its active could be to create a bubble which blocks ranged attacks.

As I see it, the only way spirit weapons will ever be useful is if minion AI is updated to not suck miserably.

I can’t even begin to describe what needs to change. I believe the whole concept simply needs a wipe and a fresh start. VERY few things about SW’s are working well.

Have the spirit weapons stick to the guardian on each side of him. The spirit weapons attack/cleave as long as you’re in a 240 radius.

You can command the spirit weapons to leave you, chasing an enemy until it gets in the range to use its usual Command abilities. Afterwards it comes back to you and becomes static once more until you command it again.

Spirit weapons gives off their Command Combo effects when they die. Similiar how the Ranger’s Pets uses their abilities when they die or how an Engi Turrets explode when they die. Give Spirits some love too.

Yamsandjams.3267:

6. They die. They don’t make any effort to dodge AoEs, and you can’t reposition them to keep them safe. This is especially a problem with the bow, because there’s no reason for it to be in combat at all. If they die, then it can put some gaping holes in your defences, or really neuter your damage or CC capabilities. With something like meditations, the opponent can’t really counter them so directly (in fact, they can’t even be interrupted, aside from litany of wrath, but that thing needs to be buffed ), so there’s less risk involved in those utilities.

There isn’t a similar function mechanic in the game that does not suffer from the doesn’t dodge/aoe problem, spirit weapons are not alone there just look at nercomancer minions, mesmer illusions and ranger (pets and spirits what was the designer thinking on that one)

Sure they made mistakes with the spirit weapons from the beginning, but I doubt that the designer really want to deal with the amount of vitriolic feeback that would come from improvements that would satisfy as ‘viable’ is not exactly a easily definable term.

Make them act like Kits – or Firey Greatsword.

Problem fixed.

Otherwise, give them the health/dmg reduction prior to their nerf a year ago.

They shouldn’t be viable in pvp at least. We have enough braindead npc builds with all those turret engis and whatnot.

Amins.3710:

Make them act like Kits – or Firey Greatsword.

It sounds good
But will require too much effort from Anet I fear.

Kicast.1459:

Amins.3710:

Make them act like Kits – or Firey Greatsword.

It sounds good
But will require too much effort from Anet I fear.

It also won’t directly fix the issue.

Look at the ele conjured weapons. Outside of PvE stuff, FGS is used for escaping/mobility purposes 4/5 times, and the flame axe and earth shield are virtually unused. The ice bow is generally only used to pop the #4 (and maybe #5), and the lightning hammer is an uncommon build choice at the best of times.

How can they ensure spirit weapons won’t suffer the same fate if they can’t do it for ele conjured weapons?

Not to mention, it would screw up some of the things they already do well. If you look at my build, it can churn out quite potent extended CC damage combos by utilizing the spirit hammer in conjunction with the hammer weapon CC skills as well as the sceptre’s immobilize. If they change it so that I need to equip the hammer to replace my current skills, that stuff vanishes.

It’s not that spirit weapons can’t do some good things, it’s just that they tend to pale in comparison to other utilities, particularly meditations and shouts (signets are possibly worse off than spirit weapons). They don’t have to completely redesign them in order to be good. In fact, such drastic changes could easily just make them worse.

robertul.3679:

They shouldn’t be viable in pvp at least. We have enough braindead npc builds with all those turret engis and whatnot.

It’s funny you say this because PvP is the only format in which they’re possibly viable.

In PvE, only the shield is really viable due to it’s projectile block, but even then it’s only really needed at high level fractals. In WvW they either get exploded or they simply can’t contribute enough to the fight.

In contrast, PvP’s smaller scale combat and necessity of objectives (i.e. holding nodes in conquest) make it so that spirit weapons can be utilized more effectively. In particular, the full-on spirit weapon build I linked can fare quite well in 1v1 situations. It’s fun to take it into a dueling server.

So if they do as you say and make them non-viable in PvP completely, then they will lose the last place where they actually have a bit of relevance.

Turrets are the same thing. People complain a lot about turret engineers in PvP, but you also need to understand that that’s the only place where they’re at least semi-viable. All other areas of the game are drastically anti-turret.

Personally, if you could summon the spirit weapon and have an option to equip it instead of it having the command skill the same way and elementalist can with their conjured equips, with the weapons coming with with a whole set of skills different from their normal weapon counter parts (like sword of justice having different skills from GS, or spirit hammer having different skills from the usual hammer) it would be really cool. This way, you don’t need to worry about having the weapons knocked around, and they could operate the exact same way elementalist weapons with their duration/durability. To be honest, I was hoping the specialization would center around an unarmed guardian (like a monk) and then having them conjure weapons as part of their profession skills for awesome amount of versatility.

i’ve always enjoyed the summoner type-classes the most in rpgs and seeing spirit weapons getting phased out to a state of a mere bonus to your other skills is shocking.

the kind of mechanic i would want introduced is an option for a guardian to fully specialize in summoning and commanding those weapons.

to achieve this, 3 major things need to be changed:

1) re-introduce damage reduction. summoning them just to see them getting blown up is demotivating at least.

2) add viable traits. im not talking about the number of traits, its about the quality. sws need to perform significantly (!) better when having installed the corresponding traits.

3) abolish/greatly reduce the cd on the summon. when specializing in sws, i need to have them available whenever i need them as they would be my main – if not only – source of damage.

and/or:

4) greatly increase the maximum duration. i can live with them being destroyable, but right now, whenever i’ve killed something, i need to wait for the weapons to disappear and then wait at least 40 seconds to be able to summon them again. thats just plain annoying!

( anet could change the way summoning spirit weapons work – why not make the skill an on/off switch like the ranger has for their pets? )

those proposals are not even world-changing. its all it really takes to make spirit weapons viable again.

After all of the incarnations of spirit weapons I have come to settle on this:

Spirit weapons should not be target-able – Originally they were invuln but target-able and this was aggravating. Having them target-able is very messy because the more random things a player has to sift through to actually target there opponent the more frustrated he will become. Remove the ability to target spirit weapons and players have no need to worry about not being able to target their opponent, but how to counter the spirit weapons that are out.

Spirit Weapons should not have HP – They were originally invulnerable and that was fine. They need to be beneficial to the guardian and last a duration but they don’t need to be kill-able, they will go away once their duration runs out.

Spirit weapons are not pets, clones or turrets. They are not as effective as those especially with the lack of traits available for them. Make these two changes and I believe they would be a lot more usable. If we could implement them more into traits (perhaps 1-2 more) they could be a viable build option.

Are spirit weapons bad now? No, but they are just not as effective as other options.

SlayerSixx.5763:

Personally, if you could summon the spirit weapon and have an option to equip it instead of it having the command skill the same way and elementalist can with their conjured equips, with the weapons coming with with a whole set of skills different from their normal weapon counter parts (like sword of justice having different skills from GS, or spirit hammer having different skills from the usual hammer) it would be really cool. This way, you don’t need to worry about having the weapons knocked around, and they could operate the exact same way elementalist weapons with their duration/durability. To be honest, I was hoping the specialization would center around an unarmed guardian (like a monk) and then having them conjure weapons as part of their profession skills for awesome amount of versatility.

This idea is something I really like.

There’s another concept I’ve been playing around with, and that is SW’s being used a more local minions than traveling minions. Think of them as traditional SW’s, but each under the effect of Ranger’s “Guard” shout. In this way, you could cast them on a targeted location and they would proceed to protect that spot. Perhaps each of them has a skill or two that they will use automatically (like a healing aoe or something) OR they each have a unique AI built in (maybe shield will prioritize giving protection to the lowest hp ally in its range). Imagine approaching the enemy’s home in PvP to cast a spirit sword on it, to help with the offense. Perhaps it blinds or burns your opponent during the fight. Then, after the sword expires or you’re ready to leave, you case the hammer on the point to a sustained defensive position. The hammer might be able to knock an enemy off the point before a decap, earning your team some extra time and points.

So, combining these two ideas: SW’s could be cast on target locations, where they will continue to act as local defensive units until they die or expire. However, the guardian (or maybe a teammate?) could walk up to the location of the initial cast and straight up wield the SW. This would grant them a whole new set of skills with a charge mechanic, just like Ele. I feel that these charges should be low in number, as this is a dual use skill. Each weapon would have a very specific role to play with unique skills.

What do you guys think of something like this? I think it’s a creative solution that offers lots of variability to Guardian without simply mimicking existing mechanics.

Make them invulnerable in Pve as they were on release and they’ll be good to go.

I think making SW invulnerable, or increasing their resistance to zergs would be a bit too much of a buff. Personally, I like it that counterplay for SW could involve killing, or CCing them. They could use some additional toughness/health though (maybe 2.8k defense, and 25k hp at lvl 80) so they don’t die to random cleaves in small scale battles.

Imo, the best change to SWs would involve making them go into cool down as soon as they’re summoned (30s of weapon, followed by 15s of no weapon, pretty fair imo), and also adding a bit of utility to their command skills:
-sword command as a leap finisher
-hammer command causes weakness
-bow auto attack heals, and bow command also blinds
-shield command still breaks stuns, but grants aegis and targets allies, not foes

Spirit weapon should remain complete trash until they get entirely overhauled. AI does not deserve to be relevant at all. I would only support spirit weapons if they required significant more micromanagement or active play otherwise buffing them would be a mistake from a pvp perspective.

Unless they do 3 things spirit weapons will remain complete trash

1: Make the Ai better
&
2: Put on their GM trait “Also increases spirit weapons health by 100%”
&
3: Make their Cd timer start as soon as they are summoned (as much as you sacrifice for them they need a much higher up time)

Unless that happens nobody will use them (with the exception of shield)

Frankly though I think they should just redesign them to be immortal mobile banners that follow the guardian around providing a passive buff & can be activated for an active buff

Make them all more like shield. They’re not going to passively damage things, they’ll have activations and passive buff type things. Sword will hang out and give a small precision buff. Hammer give a small power buff, and Bow a healing power buff.

Yup, banners that follow you with activated attacks and longer reuses/shorter uptime.

With that I’d make them untargetable and unkillable. They just hang out and do their thing, when you activate them they do their VERY easily seen tells and people can dodge them if they’re paying attention.

That’s how I’d do it. I mean, shield is the only good spirit weapon, I wonder why? wouldn’t it make sense to have the others work similarly?

Spirit weapons were fun to goof around with at the beginning when they were almost impossible to damage. That is pvp at least I have no clue about how they ever were in pve. They have to be basically invulnerable due to there timer to be useful. There is too much random crap in group fights to kill them.

Jerus.4350:

That’s how I’d do it. I mean, shield is the only good spirit weapon, I wonder why? wouldn’t it make sense to have the others work similarly?

Shield isn’t really a good spirit weapon. Its only use is for 20 seconds reflect which is mostly for the golem boss at every CoE path.

My suggestion:

• Give SW complete immunity again.
• SW gets very short leash range. It can’t go away farther than melee range.
• SW flip over skill will allow the SW to attack from a far and then runs back to the guardian.

runeblade.7514:

Jerus.4350:

That’s how I’d do it. I mean, shield is the only good spirit weapon, I wonder why? wouldn’t it make sense to have the others work similarly?

Shield isn’t really a good spirit weapon. Its only use is for 20 seconds reflect which is mostly for the golem boss at every CoE path.

Umm it’s a huge part of most fractals, and the AegisX2 per shield is nice as well for doing things like facetanking Archie to keep him stable for faster kills, and mossman for reflect and aegis.

MoC traited, WoR, hit shield at 22/23 on WoR reuse, when shield falls you’ll have WoR popping back up for near complete overage for about 36s.

Jerus.4350:

Umm it’s a huge part of most fractals, and the AegisX2 per shield is nice as well for doing things like facetanking Archie to keep him stable for faster kills, and mossman for reflect and aegis.

MoC traited, WoR, hit shield at 22/23 on WoR reuse, when shield falls you’ll have WoR popping back up for near complete overage for about 36s.

And this is why Anet stated making unblockable attacks more common in PvE.

Bran.7425:

Jerus.4350:

Umm it’s a huge part of most fractals, and the AegisX2 per shield is nice as well for doing things like facetanking Archie to keep him stable for faster kills, and mossman for reflect and aegis.

MoC traited, WoR, hit shield at 22/23 on WoR reuse, when shield falls you’ll have WoR popping back up for near complete overage for about 36s.

And this is why Anet stated making unblockable attacks more common in PvE.

Mhm, and rightfully so, now if they would just do the job completely and change the animations so they make sense

The Sword’s command needs to be changed from striking it’s current location to striking your current target like the Hammer.

Yamsandjams.3267:

1. No stability on the spirit weapons.

2. Unreliable stun break.

That’s why there’s always sacrifices to make. You have no reliable way from getting CC’d, so you need to take more blocks and blinds with you, like mace or focus, or both. This also makes the case for SW, you can still control them while you’re being CC’d. Command the Hammer to knockback your opponent when they CC you to give you breathing room.

Yamsandjams.3267:

3. Poor condition clearing.

True here. Zero cleansing once Bow is gone. With certain SW builds, the best you can do is mitigate it with more healing and keep kiting and surviving till your Bow is ready again.

Yamsandjams.3267:

4. Uncontrollable positioning.

Simultaneously tracking where your SWs are at any given time during a fight takes skill and practice. Macro-management of SW positioning would be way too complicated. It’s also why I never take the SW Shield ever, it’s pretty useless. It should belong to an Engi as a shield turret. At least with Bow, it will cleanse something, follow you somewhere, and you’re able to control where the barrage healing arrows will be.

Yamsandjams.3267:

5. No way to have it all. You can’t take all 4 spirit weapons, so you always need to give something up. If you give up the sword, you lose damage. If you give up the hammer, you lose CC. If you give up the shield, you lose defence. If you give up the bow, you lose healing. With my build, I usually use the sword, hammer, and then either the shield or bow depending on the matchup (I find I use shield most often). A more defensive build would maybe be inclined to use the shield and bow, and give up either one or both of the sword and/or hammer.

There’s also no reason to maximize all your skill slots to be all SWs. I think it’s pretty much given if you’re going to do a SW build, taking Sword and Hammer is a requirement, then possibly take SYG for the 3rd slot. It gives you something to alternate, if one is down and on CD, the other is up by your side. If you’re taking all 3 SW slots, there’s no reason to take Bow and Shield together. Once your main Sword/Hammer is down on CD, you pretty much just have your main 1-5 weapon skills.

Yamsandjams.3267:

6. They die.

Same thing for all summons. However, the other summons have effects when they die: Engi turrets detonate, Necro minions leave poison clouds, Hunter spirits trigger skills on death, and Mesmer clones explode. This is where the SW is lacking. However unlike other classes, the Guardian has access to multiple aoe heals, Staff 2, Staff 4, Mace 2, Shield 5, Healing Breeze, etc, that make SW at least a little more viable and live a little longer than your average summon. But yes, they will still die in a blink for WvW.

Yamsandjams.3267:

7. Too much investment for traits.

Can also be said for Meditation/Heal builds right? You go full 6 into something to get maximum benefit. And unless you’re a condi build, you don’t really need anything into Radiance. Look what else you’re picking up in Zeal, all of the Symbol traits (symbol @ 50%hp, pulse Vuln, increase dmg). Pair that with full Honor also picking up all Symbol traits (larger, lasts longer, pulse heal). I might be wrong, but no other skill has 6 full traits dedicated to it. This makes Symbols really really powerful.

Yamsandjams.3267:

8. Insane leash range.

My experience has always been 70% useful 30% harmful. In most of my experience in pvp, you will forever tag a runaway enemy as in-combat until they run into one of your teammates for an easy kill.

So, what to change? Well I don’t know that I’m the best to give suggestions, but I think a first step might be to condense the number of traits that spirit weapons use. To begin with, A Fire Inside requires a 4 point investment in radiance, which is an uncommon choice even in the most experimental of builds.

I completely agree there. Radiance for SW should be done away with completely and instead be an inherent attribute. Much like the Guardian, they should apply 1s Burning for every 3 hits (since a normal Sword/Hammer chain is 3 hits).

And like I said earlier, I’d love to see a trait where “does X on death.” Since they are on the Zeal line with Symbol traits, the obvious thing would be something like “Spirit Shield applies Symbol of Protection on death.” Another idea is to have them mimic their weapon counterpart such as “Spirit Sword does Whirling Wrath on death.” Finally, I’d love the ability to control the AoE command of the Sword, just like the Bow.

Yamsandjams.3267:

“Furthermore, it’s a bit odd to have two cooldown traits. You need one trait to lower the cooldown for the actual spirit weapon summons, and then another one to lower the cooldown for the active skills for the spirit weapons.”

Not really, most (all?) summons have this in common. One to reduce their summon recharge, the other to reduce their skill recharge. Mesmer clones (which aren’t even true summons) also have these as separate traits of reduced summon recharge and reduced skill recharge. And like all summons, cooldown starts at death, not after summoning.

Yamsandjams.3267:

“As far as the spirit weapons themselves, the shield would be much better if it wasn’t prone to wandering off on it’s own. "

Agree here as well. The Shield should be close to the player as it has no point being by itself in the middle of a battlefield and remain completely stationary. I mean it was a really long time since they fixed the Mesmer’s Illusionary Warden (phantasm that twirls in place) to actually move around to their target.

Yamsandjams.3267:

“Compare this to something like meditations, where you can have damage, two stun breaks that don’t need to be pre-summoned, fairly reliable condition cleansing including one full cleanse, healing, and at least one blink. It’s much easier to fit everything you need in a medi build than it is a spirit weapon build. "

“As for use in WvW, I don’t think you can really fix them in the current state. It has the same problem as minionmancers and turret engineers.”

Like you said, you can’t have everything. And It’s impossible to do so. That’s like trying to make full banner warriors as effective as shout ones. I wouldn’t say it’s a “problem that needs to be fixed.” It’s just different tools for different purposes, and SW just isn’t the right tool for anything outside of 1v1 or small group roaming.

To me the problem has always been something is broken in the scaling curves. At level 20 the spirit greatsword is preposterously powerful. It has a forced-taunt effect – you can grind something to half health, pop the sword and in one swing it’ll take agro from you. At lower levels I’ve watch it tank a veteran and 2 normal and not die before timing out.

The problem is as you level goes up its stats both in terms of durability and damage fail to keep pace. It’s like the spirit weapons are always green gear (if they had a slot) and while that’s fine at 20 its garbage at 80.

Quality of Life Issues:

• Sword miss. Would be more reliable if sword teleported to target on command or could not be commanded when out of range to actually hit.
• Shield ends up in random spots after bounces. It will bounce, teleport back to start, then take 6 steps and bubble. If the command skill refreshed the bubble skill and it would bubble instantly upon returning to its origin, that would make it more reliable. I don’t like chasing the dome.
• Bow Hugging. The player nearest the bow gets cured and repositioning the bow is not possible in combat. So your bow may stay behind to cure an afk or backline guy. If it always shot at you and cured you and allies around you, then that would be more reliable.
• Command Out of Range. If you use a Command skill when the spirit weapon is out of range of the target, the skill will go off, the weapon will attack partway to the target, and the command will go on full cooldown. If the spirit weapon is out of range of the target, the skill should not activate. Keeping track of spirit weapons moving around is nearly impossible in large fights, so don’t allow us to waste command skills.
• Shortest Duration, Longest Cooldown pets. 60s cooldown on 20s pet or 48s cooldown on a 30s pet. One is usable every 80s, the other is usable every 78s. If you use a Spirit Weapon and don’t need it, you have to wait about 80s before you can use it again. Something to alleviate this would be nice… like, “spirit weapon recharge is halved if it is not killed.”

spirit sword:

after casting first hit is the current command skill after that normal autattack for every 1s at the 10th second again the command. If the spirit weapon is killed it will explode or if it is killed the recast is halfed or ghost of mhenlo will show up pick it up and fight for you for 10s

With the new specialization system, they’ll be condensing a lot of the traits down, so that’s one big problem solved. Some of the stuff is going to become baseline too (I think they said the duration is). So that’s one big headache with the spirit weapons down. I’m more excited to play a SW build now.

mambastik.8735:

Simultaneously tracking where your SWs are at any given time during a fight takes skill and practice.

I’m a bit confused by this. What sort of skill is involved here, and how to you practice this? I can make note of where the spirit weapons are, but the positions they decide to stand in or the speed at which they adhere to my commands are determined by the AI. As I have no direct influence over the AI algorithms, I’m not really sure how I can practice the positioning of the weapons and become more skilled at it.

In my mind, there would need to be some specific pattern of manipulation that could be learned and refined, but I’m not seeing that as far kitten positioning is concerned.

mambastik.8735:

Macro-management of SW positioning would be way too complicated.

This further confuses me. Macro-management is a skill that can be practised. It was something available in GW1, and is the same sort of skill you would utilize in an RTS. I think having that sort of control over the spirit weapons would provide a great way for players to maximize their usefulness as well as apply a meaningful and tactical mechanism.

As far as “way too complicated”, I don’t think it would be as far as a player’s skill is concerned. One is always able to practice to get better at something. It would only be too complicated from a usability standpoint as the GUI and game engine is not designed to support this style of play in general. I think this is what will ultimately prevent this level of change from entering the game, although I still believe this sort of change would be beneficial to anyone wanting to run spirit weapons.

The bow is a healing ability…maaaaybe it should go in the healing slot?

Silhouette.5631:

The bow is a healing ability…maaaaybe it should go in the healing slot?

Now you’re just talking crazy.

Although in all honesty, I think it’s a good idea. However, the skill would need to have its functionality reworked to fit that role better, and a new spirit weapon would need to be created to take its place.

Unless of course they make shelter a spirit weapon healing skill. Because, you know… it summons up a shield to protect you while healing. Tell me that doesn’t make more sense than a shout.

Yamsandjams.3267:

mambastik.8735:

Simultaneously tracking where your SWs are at any given time during a fight takes skill and practice.

I’m a bit confused by this. What sort of skill is involved here, and how to you practice this? I can make note of where the spirit weapons are, but the positions they decide to stand in or the speed at which they adhere to my commands are determined by the AI. As I have no direct influence over the AI algorithms, I’m not really sure how I can practice the positioning of the weapons and become more skilled at it.

In my mind, there would need to be some specific pattern of manipulation that could be learned and refined, but I’m not seeing that as far kitten positioning is concerned.

Yes positions are decided by AI, which is exactly why you need to practice your multi-tracking skills. Where am I, where are my SWs, where is the enemy, is my Hammer in range for knockdown, if I knockdown with my Hammer, is my Sword close by for the command, etc. It’s a skill many WvW’ers have, it’s called not putting your blinders on. Those who don’t have this skill will chase an enemy without realizing they’ve just run straight into a zerg. It’s training yourself to get out of tunnel vision. To learn to left-click camera pivot to scan your environments mid-fight.

Yamsandjams.3267:

mambastik.8735:

Macro-management of SW positioning would be way too complicated.

This further confuses me. Macro-management is a skill that can be practised. It was something available in GW1, and is the same sort of skill you would utilize in an RTS. I think having that sort of control over the spirit weapons would provide a great way for players to maximize their usefulness as well as apply a meaningful and tactical mechanism.

As far as “way too complicated”, I don’t think it would be as far as a player’s skill is concerned. One is always able to practice to get better at something. It would only be too complicated from a usability standpoint as the GUI and game engine is not designed to support this style of play in general. I think this is what will ultimately prevent this level of change from entering the game, although I still believe this sort of change would be beneficial to anyone wanting to run spirit weapons.

I haven’t played GW1 so I can’t comment on that. Yes in terms of gameplay/UI it would be way too complicated. Yes we all can practice it since it’s the type of skill you would utilize in an RTS, but this isn’t an RTS. Right-click turns your character, left-click turns the camera, what type of RTS-practiced skill would transfer over? How would you create a bounding box to select your SWs like you would in any other RTS? Would I have to do some ninja finger contortions to do some hotkeys? What about including move, stop, hold, attack, attack-move for each of the SWs? Would it turn into some kind of “required skill: 150APM” to master RTS-style summons? Would the UI turn into some cluttered WoW-styled UI that looks like a ’95 IE with 50 addons?

In the end, summons would just turn into a burden. And those playing their single characters with no summons can solely focus on what they are doing and what you are doing, and they will run circles around you while you fiddle around with all the extra UI and hotkeys and whatnot. Eventually will you practice enough to get used to it? Sure. But the learning curve is just that much steeper. You would need 2-3 times more practice to get to the same level of your opponent. It’s not something I would want anyone to go through, because it’s not fair.

mambastik.8735:

Yamsandjams.3267:

mambastik.8735:

Simultaneously tracking where your SWs are at any given time during a fight takes skill and practice.

I’m a bit confused by this. What sort of skill is involved here, and how to you practice this? I can make note of where the spirit weapons are, but the positions they decide to stand in or the speed at which they adhere to my commands are determined by the AI. As I have no direct influence over the AI algorithms, I’m not really sure how I can practice the positioning of the weapons and become more skilled at it.

In my mind, there would need to be some specific pattern of manipulation that could be learned and refined, but I’m not seeing that as far kitten positioning is concerned.

Yes positions are decided by AI, which is exactly why you need to practice your multi-tracking skills. Where am I, where are my SWs, where is the enemy, is my Hammer in range for knockdown, if I knockdown with my Hammer, is my Sword close by for the command, etc. It’s a skill many WvW’ers have, it’s called not putting your blinders on. Those who don’t have this skill will chase an enemy without realizing they’ve just run straight into a zerg. It’s training yourself to get out of tunnel vision. To learn to left-click camera pivot to scan your environments mid-fight.

Yamsandjams.3267:

mambastik.8735:

Macro-management of SW positioning would be way too complicated.

This further confuses me. Macro-management is a skill that can be practised. It was something available in GW1, and is the same sort of skill you would utilize in an RTS. I think having that sort of control over the spirit weapons would provide a great way for players to maximize their usefulness as well as apply a meaningful and tactical mechanism.

As far as “way too complicated”, I don’t think it would be as far as a player’s skill is concerned. One is always able to practice to get better at something. It would only be too complicated from a usability standpoint as the GUI and game engine is not designed to support this style of play in general. I think this is what will ultimately prevent this level of change from entering the game, although I still believe this sort of change would be beneficial to anyone wanting to run spirit weapons.

I haven’t played GW1 so I can’t comment on that. Yes in terms of gameplay/UI it would be way too complicated. Yes we all can practice it since it’s the type of skill you would utilize in an RTS, but this isn’t an RTS. Right-click turns your character, left-click turns the camera, what type of RTS-practiced skill would transfer over? How would you create a bounding box to select your SWs like you would in any other RTS? Would I have to do some ninja finger contortions to do some hotkeys? What about including move, stop, hold, attack, attack-move for each of the SWs? Would it turn into some kind of “required skill: 150APM” to master RTS-style summons? Would the UI turn into some cluttered WoW-styled UI that looks like a ’95 IE with 50 addons?

In the end, summons would just turn into a burden. And those playing their single characters with no summons can solely focus on what they are doing and what you are doing, and they will run circles around you while you fiddle around with all the extra UI and hotkeys and whatnot. Eventually will you practice enough to get used to it? Sure. But the learning curve is just that much steeper. You would need 2-3 times more practice to get to the same level of your opponent. It’s not something I would want anyone to go through, because it’s not fair.

A more simple way to do this is simply add the old Hero UI to spirit weapons so we can control them better. This also gives them a chance to get more than one command ability which is a nice buff.

a big issue for spirit weapons is that there isn’t a good weapon that both uses symbols and synergizes well with them.

For a spirit weapon build you’re gonna be doing a burning build, which means you’re taking torch as it benefits the most from the radiance tree. However, you’re also gonna need a weapon that you can use with this that has a symbol, because the zeal tree only has minors that benefit that.

This only leaves you with mace as an option. Mace has very little synergy with the spirit weapons build as it’s more of a protection and support weapon, while spirit weapons are more for a DPS type of build. Especially with how the radiance tree is built.

If smite was considered a symbol, or if sword had a symbol, then spirit weapons would be in a better spot. At the moment, there is a big lack of synergy between spirit weapons and the tree they’re put into. Until this changes, the spirit weapons suffer from a tree that really doesn’t synergize with them at all.

Also, why isn’t the bow a heal skill? seriously?

Throw them all into one elite, done.

striker.3704:

a big issue for spirit weapons is that there isn’t a good weapon that both uses symbols and synergizes well with them.

For a spirit weapon build you’re gonna be doing a burning build, which means you’re taking torch as it benefits the most from the radiance tree. However, you’re also gonna need a weapon that you can use with this that has a symbol, because the zeal tree only has minors that benefit that.

This only leaves you with mace as an option. Mace has very little synergy with the spirit weapons build as it’s more of a protection and support weapon, while spirit weapons are more for a DPS type of build. Especially with how the radiance tree is built.

If smite was considered a symbol, or if sword had a symbol, then spirit weapons would be in a better spot. At the moment, there is a big lack of synergy between spirit weapons and the tree they’re put into. Until this changes, the spirit weapons suffer from a tree that really doesn’t synergize with them at all.

Also, why isn’t the bow a heal skill? seriously?

If anything, Mace has the most synergy with SW’s as it’s got the fastest recharge on it’s symbol to take advantage of those sweet symbol traits in Zeal. That’s still not saying much because the GM trait for SW and Symbol damage multiplier are conflicting. I’m still not seeing SW’s very useful.

I use scepter/focus with my SW guard. The ranged root is essential to pinning down targets so they can’t run from the sword/hammer and with the incredible long leashes on SW you need a ranged weapon to actually capitalize on their burning desire to hunt enemies all the way out to draw distance .

One of yall had a point that Spirit weapons could get an upgrade on their skill factor. Hammer could have a target effect so we could point where we want it to hammer. Same for Sword. I see this especially useful for a number of reasons.

Obtena.7952:

striker.3704:

a big issue for spirit weapons is that there isn’t a good weapon that both uses symbols and synergizes well with them.

For a spirit weapon build you’re gonna be doing a burning build, which means you’re taking torch as it benefits the most from the radiance tree. However, you’re also gonna need a weapon that you can use with this that has a symbol, because the zeal tree only has minors that benefit that.

This only leaves you with mace as an option. Mace has very little synergy with the spirit weapons build as it’s more of a protection and support weapon, while spirit weapons are more for a DPS type of build. Especially with how the radiance tree is built.

If smite was considered a symbol, or if sword had a symbol, then spirit weapons would be in a better spot. At the moment, there is a big lack of synergy between spirit weapons and the tree they’re put into. Until this changes, the spirit weapons suffer from a tree that really doesn’t synergize with them at all.

Also, why isn’t the bow a heal skill? seriously?

If anything, Mace has the most synergy with SW’s as it’s got the fastest recharge on it’s symbol to take advantage of those sweet symbol traits in Zeal. That’s still not saying much because the GM trait for SW and Symbol damage multiplier are conflicting. I’m still not seeing SW’s very useful.

That’s what I’m saying though, the mace symbol does synergize with the adept traits, but none of the other qualities of the mace do.
-the mace has very slow auto attack skill, where you want a fast swinging weapon for proccing burning and crits as much as possible. This is compounded with the up-coming trait changes in radiance that make crits proc even more burning and other effects.
-When you have both mace and torch equipped, you have no access to any built in CC outside of the spirit hammer. If you do stun someone with the spirit hammer, by the time you get in range to hit the enemy with your symbol, it takes so long to place it, that they can get up and out before even taking 2 ticks from it.
-the block on the mace is at most a minor inconvenience as you don’t have any traits to take advantage of it. The spirit shield does a better job over all accomplishing this, even if it only blocks projectiles.
-Since the radiance tree needs crits and you need survivability so your weapons can do their thing, the heal on the mace auto attack is a waste as you need to be stat’d for healing power to get a noticeable benefit from it.
-the benefits you get from the minor traits (10% more symbol damage and a couple of stacks of vulnerability) are incredibly meager even for minor traits.

In fact, the zeal trait line is easily comparable to the older death magic trait line. The old death magic trait line used to have “spawn a jagged horror” as the first adept minor trait, and “more toughness per minion” as a master minor trait. While these both in theory synergize within themselves, If someone wanted to take the death magic trait line, they’d need to deal with those two traits being incredibly mediocre if they didn’t run minions.

A simple way to fix it would be to take the current minors and combine them all into a symbol mastery trait, and instead make zeal focus more on power and burning builds. IE
adept minor- zealous strike- when you burn a foe, gain (1) might, 5 second cooldown.
master minor- firey wrath
grand master minor- kindled Zeal (changed from 13% to 7%)

By making the tree more general and allowing players to pick traits to specialize it, it makes the spirit weapons build stronger as a whole. While the example I gave above might not be balanced in any way, the general idea is still the same. The zeal tree is obviously about power builds and damage (with burning), so why not make the minor traits reflect that?

An Idea to make Spirit Weapons more dependable:

Spirit Weapons have Conjure Charges

• Spirit Weapons are invulnerable but have a set number of Charges like Conjured Weapons.
• Each time they use one of their skills, a charge is used up.
• When all Charges are used or if the duration is reached, the weapon Despawns.
• Thematically they become less like minions and more like autonomous Conjured Weapons.

An Idea to make Spirit Weapons more dependable, more skillful, and less messy to use:

Spirit Weapon Swapping

• Allow only one Spirit Weapon to be summoned at one time.
• That Spirit Weapon will stay out a long time and is very hard to kill (possibly invulnerable or very quickly resummonable). The point is that you can pretty much always have one Weapon out.
• Summoning a Spirit Weapon despawns any Spirit Weapon you currently have out and puts it on a Cooldown. (Summoning a Weapon would be sorta like using an Attunement.)
• If you need more defense, have out the Shield. If you need condi-cleanse, have out the Bow. If you need a Blast Finisher, summon the hammer, etc. (Skillful, thoughtful usage).
• Having 1 spirit weapon skill in your build would provide a reliable benefit (as reliable as AI can be).
• Having multiple Spirit Weapons in your build would allow you to cycle through the passive and active usages.
• Gone would be the days of taking 5-7 seconds to summon all your spirit weapons at once and try to activate their command skills before they die (messy implementation).
• Gone would be the days of having all your spirit weapons on long-cooldowns after they all get melted at once.
• This change would make Spirit Weapons a very distinguished stand-out in the pet department, instead of the shortest duration, longest cooldown squishy something-of-a-joke pet we have today.

striker.3704:

For a spirit weapon build you’re gonna be doing a burning build

Not if you’re going to optimize for Symbols, then you can go into Honor and pick up the rest of the Symbol traits. You wouldn’t need to touch Radiance unless you truly wanted to pick up every single possible SW trait for the sake of making a fully-fledged SW build. Even SW duration in the Virtue line is optional, because in the middle of battle, when would a SW last it’s full duration anyway? Which brings me to:

striker.3704:

the benefits you get from the minor traits (10% more symbol damage and a couple of stacks of vulnerability) are incredibly meager even for minor traits.

At Honor, you can pick up 10% more damage, bringing a total of 20% more damage for Symbols. Not bad at all I’d say.

striker.3704:

This only leaves you with mace as an option. Mace has very little synergy with the spirit weapons build as it’s more of a protection and support weapon, while spirit weapons are more for a DPS type of build.

On the contrary. Like Obtena said, it has the most synergy for SW than any other weapon. You’re picking up Symbol traits along Zeal, and no other weapon has a near 100% Symbol uptime than a mace. Sure there’s no mace-specific trait within Zeal, but all the Symbol traits just scream mace. You’re right, SW are more for a DPS style build, and what’s better than a weapon which can nearly keep 100% uptime ticking Vulnerability for all your SWs to take advantage of?

striker.3704:

the mace has very slow auto attack skill, where you want a fast swinging weapon for proccing burning and crits as much as possible.

When traited, mace’s Symbol only has a 2 second window (6s duration, 8s CD) in which there is no Symbol on the ground. When you factor in auto-attack + ticking Symbol, then applying Burning doesn’t seem too slow.

striker.3704:

When you have both mace and torch equipped, you have no access to any built in CC outside of the spirit hammer. If you do stun someone with the spirit hammer, by the time you get in range to hit the enemy with your symbol, it takes so long to place it, that they can get up and out before even taking 2 ticks from it.

Optimizing for Symbols means you’re playing for sustainability, not for burst. Knocking someone down just to apply a Symbol on top of them is unnecessary. People evade through and teleport away from Meteor Showers and Chaos Storms and Null Fields, but when’s the last time you saw someone trying to escape a Symbol for their own safety? Enemies know they can walk through Symbols like it’s nothing and the only reason they avoid it is so they can stay out of combat.

striker.3704:

the block on the mace is at most a minor inconvenience as you don’t have any traits to take advantage of it. The spirit shield does a better job over all accomplishing this, even if it only blocks projectiles.

Even if there’s no mace-specific traits within Zeal, I’d hardly call the block an inconvenience. It blocks and does more damage than hammer#2, how is that any inconvenience at all? And at 60 seconds, the spirit shield is tied for 3rd highest CD utility just behind 120s Sanctuary and 80s Hallowed Ground, all for something that doesn’t move. It will block projectiles for itself, not for you.

runeblade.7514:

My suggestion:

• Give SW complete immunity again.
• SW gets very short leash range. It can’t go away farther than melee range.
• SW flip over skill will allow the SW to attack from a far and then runs back to the guardian.

I think this suggestions are on the money here. I would suggests this:

• Give them a health bar but they stay until dead.
• Stay at melee range and follor the guard like its shadow. The guard is to defend the people the spirit weapons to defend the guard.
• rework a little bit the effects:
  – Hammer melee damage. Active knockdown+damage.
  – Sword melee damage.
  – Shield proyectile protection. Active clear conditions+break stun.
  – Bow only ranged damage. Active something like barrage from ranger with ligth. Bow won’t fire if the mob is closer than x units.

The AI should choose by priority attacking mobs that are not targeted by the guard, more defense rol. The bow should choose the closes.

The traits could improve the damage and life of the spirit weapons. also give them another passive/active effect.

Yeah, they really should just have the spirit weapons stay close enough to the guardian to be inside his symbols. That way we could heal/buff them, ya know as if we were some kinda support class -.-