Guild Wars 2

Want to maximize usage of critical chance vs critical damage. I currently run with 37% crit chance and 68% crit damage. How much crit damage do you recommend for this crit chance? So that I´m not wasting stat points in too much crit chance or damage.

I’ve looked at this but your question is a little confusing so I’m going to say stuff, you can let us know if that’s answering your question.

Your primary resource is the chart on this page: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Critical_hit

If you do some math, you can find out the percent increase by moving in any direction in the chart.

IF you are trying to get the most damage for a build possible, the answer is you don’t balance your crit chance and damage. You simply take the highest damage gear possible: This is Zerker gear.

IF you are trying to move in the chart and determine the best bang for your crit chance and damage gear values, then I would advise you get around 50% – 60% crit chance, then try to get equal amounts of crit chance and damage after than. WHY?

Take at look at the damage increase at 0 Crit damage and 50% Crit chance. If you add 5 more crit damage, you move to 1.275. If you add 5 more crit damage, you get 1.275. Therefore, if you are at the point, getting crit damage vs. chance does not affect your damage (ignore sigil on crit effects for the moment). You want to follow this line of ‘equivalent damage increases’ if I have understood your question correctly.

The cool thing is that you can actually make a build really easily with this concept. You just start with Knights until you are at 50-55% crit chance, then load up on the zerkers. You almost follow this line with that. That’s a nice way to get a good balance for a build IMO.

I´ve seen that chart and it doesn´t clarify the answer I need. I´ve already seen it somewhere on this forum but not finding it atm.
I don´t run full Zerk that´s why i´m asking this question. My build puts me with 35-37% crit chance. I don´t want to be wasting stat points (e.g. crit chance 20% damage 100% or chance 50% and damage 30%), just want to make the best use of my build in terms of damage output.

For example, if I run with 35% critical chance, how much damage should I have in order to make the most out of these stats?

Look up effective power, that’s the number you should try to maximize in any given build.

He’s not after a maximized build (because the answer is just zerkers for that).

If I understand correctly, he’s asking for a build where he gets equal damage increases by balancing between crit damage and chance.

You won’t be wasting stat points in crit damage because you damage increases regardless …. but you won’t be getting equivalent damage increases between crit damage and chance until you reach about 50-60% crit chance.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Your not really going to get many left over gear slots if you target that crit chance anyways. Maybe it will be a more relevant question once we get ascended gear.

Obtena.7952:

He’s not after a maximized build (because the answer is just zerkers for that).

If I understand correctly, he’s asking for a build where he gets equal damage increases by balancing between crit damage and chance.

You won’t be wasting stat points in crit damage because you damage increases regardless …. but you won’t be getting equivalent damage increases between crit damage and chance until you reach about 50-60% crit chance.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Your not really going to get many left over gear slots if you target that crit chance anyways. Maybe it will be a more relevant question once we get ascended gear.

The problem with this question (as phrased here) is that it depends on the exchange rate between % crit dmg and % crit rate — which is not constant across equipment or across traits.

At 50% crit rate and 50% crit dmg, when you crit you do 2.0 dmg, and you do this 50% of the time — so your average dmg is 1.5 (== 2.0 * .5 + .5). If you increase precision by 64, you increase crit rate by 3%, and the new average damage multiplier is 1.53 (== 2.0 * .53 + .47). If you increase critical damage by 5% (the ratio for 1h weapons), then you only increase the average damage multiplier to 1.525 (== 2.05 * .5 + .5).

Now — let’s assume 90% crit rate and 90% crit damage — average of 2.26 (== 2.4 * .9 + .1). Increase crit rate by 3% and you get 2.302 (2.4 * .93 + .07); increase crit damage by 5% and you get 2.305 (2.45 * .9 + .1). Somewhere between those, the curve crosses … but you may have other sources of precision and critical damage.

If the ratio is 1:13 or worse for crit dmg, precision is often better — or approximately as good. If the ratio is 1:5 (what you get for trinkets), then crit damage is probably better. If you’re really aiming to optimize this, you have to consider the ratio on a per-item basis:

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Item_nomenclature#Comparison_of_numeric_vs._percentage_attributes

I´m not asking for a build, it´s a simple question.

In your opinion, if I have 35% crit chance how much crit damage should I have and why?

Or if I want to use 65-68% critical damage, at how many crit chance should I play?

Just want to understand if i´m wasting too many points in precision or crit chance or if these stats are ok

Your stats seem fine; I would worry more about power than I would about Crit Damage at that point. Obviously, I don’t know what this build is meant for (I would recommend different things for PvE vs. WvW vs. Roaming), but I would say that you could easily get 1800-2000 power out of that Crit Damage and Crit Chance, depending on how glassy you want to be.

Nespinha.3165:

I´m not asking for a build, it´s a simple question.

In your opinion, if I have 35% crit chance how much crit damage should I have and why?

Or if I want to use 65-68% critical damage, at how many crit chance should I play?

Just want to understand if i´m wasting too many points in precision or crit chance or if these stats are ok

As advice — I would aim for 50-60% crit rate without fury. With a good group, you’ll get fury and perhaps some add’l precision, putting you near the limit. Given on-proc effects for crit rate, it’s probably worth it to do this — though the math for pure dps will generally give the largest marginal reward for increasing the stat which is lower. E.g. assuming 3% crit rate =~ 5% crit dmg:

from 0% crit dmg 35% crit rate:
1.175 -> 1.19 crit rate or 1.1925 crit dmg (crit dmg is better)
from 50% crit dmg 35% crit rate:
1.35 -> 1.38 crit rate or 1.3675 crit dmg (crit rate is better)
from 70% crit dmg 35% crit rate:
1.42 -> 1.456 crit rate or 1.4375 crit dmg (crit rate is better)
from 30% crit dmg and 60% crit rate:
1.48 -> 1.504 crit rate or 1.51 crit dmg (crit dmg is better)

(this seems like it’d be fun to create a calculator … but I’d guess that there’s one somewhere if you search).

Even when crit dmg is better, it’s only marginally better until you get to a much higher crit rate.

And of course, there are some things which can’t be crit’ed, meaning only power would benefit you for those.

(edit: lol, “as” + “5%” => kitten)

Nespinha.3165:

I´m not asking for a build, it´s a simple question.

In your opinion, if I have 35% crit chance how much crit damage should I have and why?

Or if I want to use 65-68% critical damage, at how many crit chance should I play?

Just want to understand if i´m wasting too many points in precision or crit chance or if these stats are ok

You’re asking the wrong question.

linuxotaku hit the nail on the head: The issue is that some gear gives more critical damage per point of other stats than other slots. So when you’re trying to avoid wasting stats, the way you do that is by making sure that the gear you wear that IS specific to damage is in the correct slot. You can figure out all of the ratios very simply; Look at Berserker stat gear for any given slot, divide the total non-crit damage stat points by the crit damage. e.g. 60 power 40 precision 6% crit damage – 100/6, gives you 16 stat points per crit damage point. The lower the number, the better. Trinket wise, accessories give you the best ratio of crit damage, and Exquisite Rubies are the best upgrades for that purpose as well. For armor, Shoulders, Gloves, and Boots give the best ratios.

So here’s how you would address your scenario: You look at your build, and you say “Okay, I have roughly the stats that I want, but I want to make it as efficient as possible.” Let’s say you’re wearing all Knights armor and all Berserker trinkets. What you’ll find is actually more efficient is if you swap out your Knights Shoulders, Gloves, and Boots for Berserker (because of better ratios of crit damage to normal stats) and then replace your rings and possibly amulet with Knights. Your stats will be roughly equal to before, but you will be getting more efficient conversions of other stats to critical damage.

Basically you can think of it like this: Start off designing your build without damage in mind, and then salt to taste with Berserker gear until you hit the damage point you want in that build. When you do that, start replacing slots with berserker gear that have the best ratios first, which is Accessories (like Ruby Orichalcum Earrings). Then move on down the list until you finally hit whatever your target stats are for damage.

The reason you have to do it like this is that you can’t really say “for x crit damage y crit chance is optimal” because you’re locked in to specific stat distributions. You don’t get to allocate stats point by point in this game. The only thing that really matters is that Berserker gear is the best direct damage gear in the game, and so any time you’re building direct damage into your loadout you should always do so by giving yourself Berserker gear. Adding Berserker gear will always give you more DPS, more efficiently, than any other stat distribution.

linuxotaku.4731:

The problem with this question (as phrased here) is that it depends on the exchange rate between % crit dmg and % crit rate — which is not constant across equipment or across traits.

Thanks for providing the math part because frankly, I’m just too lazy for that it loses most people, so I don’t bother.

I’ve been through the same question myself but once I realized it’s more about the limitation on gear vs. engineering my stats, I dropped the whole idea. I do wish it was more like this though.

foofad.5162:

Nespinha.3165:

I´m not asking for a build, it´s a simple question.

In your opinion, if I have 35% crit chance how much crit damage should I have and why?

Or if I want to use 65-68% critical damage, at how many crit chance should I play?

Just want to understand if i´m wasting too many points in precision or crit chance or if these stats are ok

You’re asking the wrong question.

linuxotaku hit the nail on the head: The issue is that some gear gives more critical damage per point of other stats than other slots. So when you’re trying to avoid wasting stats, the way you do that is by making sure that the gear you wear that IS specific to damage is in the correct slot. You can figure out all of the ratios very simply; Look at Berserker stat gear for any given slot, divide the total non-crit damage stat points by the crit damage. e.g. 60 power 40 precision 6% crit damage – 100/6, gives you 16 stat points per crit damage point. The lower the number, the better. Trinket wise, accessories give you the best ratio of crit damage, and Exquisite Rubies are the best upgrades for that purpose as well. For armor, Shoulders, Gloves, and Boots give the best ratios.

So here’s how you would address your scenario: You look at your build, and you say “Okay, I have roughly the stats that I want, but I want to make it as efficient as possible.” Let’s say you’re wearing all Knights armor and all Berserker trinkets. What you’ll find is actually more efficient is if you swap out your Knights Shoulders, Gloves, and Boots for Berserker (because of better ratios of crit damage to normal stats) and then replace your rings and possibly amulet with Knights. Your stats will be roughly equal to before, but you will be getting more efficient conversions of other stats to critical damage.

Basically you can think of it like this: Start off designing your build without damage in mind, and then salt to taste with Berserker gear until you hit the damage point you want in that build. When you do that, start replacing slots with berserker gear that have the best ratios first, which is Accessories (like Ruby Orichalcum Earrings). Then move on down the list until you finally hit whatever your target stats are for damage.

The reason you have to do it like this is that you can’t really say “for x crit damage y crit chance is optimal” because you’re locked in to specific stat distributions. You don’t get to allocate stats point by point in this game. The only thing that really matters is that Berserker gear is the best direct damage gear in the game, and so any time you’re building direct damage into your loadout you should always do so by giving yourself Berserker gear. Adding Berserker gear will always give you more DPS, more efficiently, than any other stat distribution.

The reason I asked this is to equilibrate the build and stats as much as I can (seems stupid but I´m really a perfectionist..). The build is meant to be used in PvE and WvW, without the need to change armor, just a few trinkets.

Following purgatoryz´s advice, I´m now looking more into effective power rather thar x crit chance/damage (using buildcraft do to this). I´ve never actually looked at this value. Now I´m ranging effective power between 3000-3200. Do these values really differ that much in terms of output damage?
(In my case this would mean 3200 with 10% boon duration or 3000 with 40% boon duration)

Also thanks for helping out

3000-3200 isn’t going to make a whole lot of difference. For comparison though, a full DPS build is gonna be on the order of 5000-6000.

foofad.5162:

3000-3200 isn’t going to make a whole lot of difference. For comparison though, a full DPS build is gonna be on the order of 5000-6000.

Yes I know, this is not a full dps build and that´s why im concerned in optimizing the dps while maintaining the survivability and want.

The 3000-3200 difference was to ask wether this difference justifies using boon duration runes or not, since I never used them before..

You’re going to have to elaborate on what your build is if you want that kind of a judgement call. If you don’t have many boons to speak of (Meditations build, Consecrations, etc) then it’s pointless. If you do, then go for it. Boon duration is very valuable and can make or break certain builds.

I use a standard 0/0/30/30/10 AH and shout build both for PvE and WvW (for WvW I put on a few soldier trinkets, I don´t like having gear for one game content only).

I used to run a DPS build, but since I mainly play high level fractals with random groups (that vary in quality) I´d rather use a more balanced build. That´s why I want to maximize/optimize DPS, keeping the survivability that I want. Since I never actually looked at effective power, I have no clue what I can call good or bad value. From what I´ve read today, 3000-3200 is not significantly different, and an increase in 30% boon duration could definitely make a big difference

Also take in to mind the amount of hits per time you get also effects your choice.

rapid damaging weapons like staff, scepter (and sword/greatsword to an extent) benefit more from higher crit damage attached to a good crit, because you are getting more hits in, so statistically you are more likely to reach enough hits to benefit from crit damage going off from crits,
Hammer for example is a weapon i’d focus mostly crit chance, as its a slow 1 time big hitter, you would like to make most of the hits you get in.

Generally, gaurdian outside of pve should focus as much as possible crit chance over damage. in pve maximize whatever floats your boat, mobs don’t dodge.

I dun think there is a optimal crit chance vs crit damage ratio. If u are talking about a 1% increase in crit chance vs 1% increase in crit damage, then increase in crit chance is better.
However there is a different tradeoff for different equipment, hence it is difficult to compare.

And I think u mixed it up with power vs precision whereby there is indead a table regarding the optimal amount of power for a certain level of crit chance and crit damage.
I think that in your case precision will be more useful since u already have alot of crit damage from the valor line. And having higher precision allow u to trigger empowering might and vigor more consistenly.
As a disclaimer, I am not entirely sure I am right though.

Check this thread and the charts there (especailly “golden ratios”):

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/players/Damage-Power-Precision-and-Golden-Ratios

Citizen Shane

For any specific character that you want to maximize damage, you can apply the data as follows:
(1) look at your critical strike damage level
(2) refer to the golden ratio for the closest level
(3) calculate your power-to-precision ratio by dividing power by precision
(4) compare the 2 ratios. If your current ratio is below the golden ratio, take points out of precision and put them into power (if possible) until you get to the golden ratio. If your current ratio is above the golden ratio, take points out of power and put them into precision (if possible) until you get to the golden ratio.
You will need to re-evaluate this whenever your critical strike damage changes if you want to remain at optimal direct damage output.

Hurrakan.4259:

Check this thread and the charts there (especailly “golden ratios”):

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/players/Damage-Power-Precision-and-Golden-Ratios

Citizen Shane

For any specific character that you want to maximize damage, you can apply the data as follows:
(1) look at your critical strike damage level
(2) refer to the golden ratio for the closest level
(3) calculate your power-to-precision ratio by dividing power by precision
(4) compare the 2 ratios. If your current ratio is below the golden ratio, take points out of precision and put them into power (if possible) until you get to the golden ratio. If your current ratio is above the golden ratio, take points out of power and put them into precision (if possible) until you get to the golden ratio.
You will need to re-evaluate this whenever your critical strike damage changes if you want to remain at optimal direct damage output.

That table is for power vs precision. Not crit damage vs crit chance

I’m resurrecting this page from the depths of page 9ish for the following reasons:
1) my computer has been dead for the past few months, and I didn’t get a chance before
2) also, I couldn’t find the link I wanted
3) I have that link
4) since I’m logged into my tablet already, might as well. Still provides good info

And without further ado,
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1li5q3/breakeven_points_of_power_vs_precision_mathtable/

Basically, use your crit chance and crit damage (+50% for innate bonus) and it tells you the required power before more crit chance will improve damage. For example, my guardian build to the best of my memory has 30% chance and ~42% damage, so that means when i have more than 2963 power (42% + 50% innate), then i souls invest in more precision. You can reverse engineer this to see whether more precision or crit damage will result in a better power score. Full zerker provides the best spread obviously, bit this is helpful when mixing and matching non zerker pieces.

I’d like to thank Obtena for helping me cast the lure to this thread, my memory for reminding me Obtena posted here, and my mom for always believing in me.