Guild Wars 2

So much nerfs. Anet, why? ( -><- means interferes, conflicts )

Zealous Blade -><- Binding Jeaopardy -> Nerf
Right-Hand Strength -><- Inner Fire -> Nerf

Radiant Power (10% flat damage increase to conditioned foes) -> +25% crit to burning only foes -> 10% crit to burning only foes NERF

Radiant Retaliation (Retaliation damage scales from condition damage instead of power) – Power base starts out at 1000, Condi dmg base starts out at ZERO, you need to invest an extra 1000 from equipment to cover the ground then more. You could just dump those 1000 into power to DOUBLE your direct damage and your retal damage, what’s the POINT of this trait anyway?

Symbol Avenger (20% dmg increase while standing in your symbols: seemingly a buff but it does interferes with ele’s fire fields!!!)

Unscathed Contender -><- Master of Consecrations

RIP Guardians for PvE 2015. Chronomancers ftw!

I agree with everythng except fire fields. They’ve become way less important now that warriors stack all the might during combat. Fire fields are really a precombat stack

The main problems with the traits that I see are the loss of damage modifiers and the fact that you can’t have UC with master of consecrations at the same time.

This really blows. I don’t feel motivated to play my guardian much at all anymore. There’s no scepter power 10% modifier anymore and no powerful blades 10% modifier either.

What a shame. Evidently they must want less people to play this class in PvE for some reason.

I honestly don’t see it as a terrible change. Loss of damage mods sucks sure, but we aren’t losing any raw functionality. Numbers are numbers at the end of the day, and nobody is going to stop bringing guards because they do 10% less damage. SoA/WoR practically guarantee the guard a spot in any party without costing you on dps really, so I can see anet wanting to differentiate full DPS groups from supporty groups a bit more.

Saying guardians are going out of the “meta” (especially in pugs) is same as saying that warriors are going out. Guard will still be the profession that can carry the stupidest players trough pretty much any content with their amount of utility.

I don’t like the reduced range of virtues. In bad PUGs I often need the huge range to reach those rangers…
In good groups its no difference.

The other changes seems ok. Radiance is less attractive. It loses a 10% dmg mod, a 10% dmg mod for swords. I’m not sure if you really need the increased crit chance it offers, you should reach the cap with it.
If the new symbol trait is giving a 20% dmg mod: get a mace instead of a sword and thats it.

Linnael.1069:

I honestly don’t see it as a terrible change. Loss of damage mods sucks sure, but we aren’t losing any raw functionality. Numbers are numbers at the end of the day, and nobody is going to stop bringing guards because they do 10% less damage. SoA/WoR practically guarantee the guard a spot in any party without costing you on dps really, so I can see anet wanting to differentiate full DPS groups from supporty groups a bit more.

It is more like a 20%-25% damage nerf relative to all other classes had they not buff the other classes. With all other classes buffed, including necromancer – in form of condition damage buffs and rangers, it will feel over a 30% damage reduction nerf, not a 10%. Guardian is going from 4-5th place in term of damage down to last, probably lower than the Revenant.

In PvE there are already too many stupid pug groups that that has support guardians already, what nomad / cleric staff guards? This change will steer the general populace toward that direction even more.

Meta groups will just drop guardians and replace them with mesmer/chronomacers now.

You should do maths before starting to throw hyperbolic claims around. And besides record runs already threw their guardians away a long time ago in favor of mesmer portal tricks but in everyday runs guards still have a staple spot since it allows everyone to play more relaxed instead of try harding all the time.

Stars.2179:

Linnael.1069:

I honestly don’t see it as a terrible change. Loss of damage mods sucks sure, but we aren’t losing any raw functionality. Numbers are numbers at the end of the day, and nobody is going to stop bringing guards because they do 10% less damage. SoA/WoR practically guarantee the guard a spot in any party without costing you on dps really, so I can see anet wanting to differentiate full DPS groups from supporty groups a bit more.

It is more like a 20%-25% damage nerf relative to all other classes had they not buff the other classes. With all other classes buffed, including necromancer – in form of condition damage buffs and rangers, it will feel over a 30% damage reduction nerf, not a 10%. Guardian is going from 4-5th place in term of damage down to last, probably lower than the Revenant.

In PvE there are already too many stupid pug groups that that has support guardians already, what nomad / cleric staff guards? This change will steer the general populace toward that direction even more.

Meta groups will just drop guardians and replace them with mesmer/chronomacers now.

Exaggerating much?

If you compare the “relative damage loss” – which is far from accurate looking at the crit chance we can achieve without even having one point in precision – you should compare everything and anything which.

Did you see what boon conversion does to chill? Do you realize that in a point defense anone who dishes out chill risks to have hard countered all the parties conditions by shout guards? With two have to more shouts on the bar I already hear the tear drops.

there is so much other stuff … you can start crying in two weeks when reality has reveled itself

concerning PvE:
We can spec for high dps (http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgIBrALoBVw~)
with a GS/Mace+focus.

I do believe the highest dps for guard might be shifting away from ferocity to condition damage via burns simply becaise we can just take condi enhencement along the way of our damage modifiers. So rampager or sinister might be the way to go.

You act as if this was new information. Most of these changes have been known for a long time. And it’s not like GS+sw/f is the only thing that exists.
Is guardian the only class that can stack vuln? Take Zealous Blade.
Radiant retaliation already scaled better with condition damage than power. The updated radiant retaliation will supposedly scale even better.
Competent players aren’t particularly affected by symbols

All in all, I welcome our new Hammer+M/ForT overlords.

I dont play guard much..but I see guard got buffed. Sure scepter and sword wont be meta, but Symbol Avenger seems huge.

Also maybe mesmer can replace guard as pug carryier with distorsion affecting allies.

Stars.2179:

It is more like a 20%-25% damage nerf relative to all other classes had they not buff the other classes.

25% lost damage?

Yes, you lose vuln spam vs trashmobs if you stay at GS trait. But you get reduced GS skills which should increase your dmg vs. everything, not only trashmobs.
You get a 20% (?) dmg buff in symbols. A GS only Guard can keep his symbol up for 20% of the time, so its roughly a 4% dmg buff.
You lose a 10% dmg buff on sword. But most guards seems to camp GS anyway and nobody cares. Lets say the sword dmg buff decreases your total dmg by 5%. Its nearly the same as the new gained dmg buff in zeal with its 4%. Radiance loses its 10% dmg buff against condis. But you could still go for the 10% dmg buff under retaliation. Virtues offer retaliation so there should be some uptime. GS-Symbol does so, too.
You still get +10% crit chance.

Hammer, already a strong build, loses its blind spam and a 10% dmg mod. If you go for zeal, honor, virtues: it gains a 20% dmg mod, burning and heal on larger symbols, increased symbol dmg, might on crit, +1% dmg per boon, access to more stabi and condi remove. So an already strong guard build got a huge buff.

Taku.6352:

You should do maths before starting to throw hyperbolic claims around. And besides record runs already threw their guardians away a long time ago in favor of mesmer portal tricks but in everyday runs guards still have a staple spot since it allows everyone to play more relaxed instead of try harding all the time.

It’s stated above if you actually read and learn how to do the math. Guardians lost most their multipliers. 10% from powerful blades, 10% from radiant power, 20% from unscathed contender – which one would take master of consecration. It is at 1.1×1.1×1.2 = 1.452 which is actually a 45% lost in direct damage. Even if you count unscathed contender as only a 25% upkeep, it would be 1.1×1.1×1.05 = 1.2705 which is a 27.05% damage reduction. When I said 20% loss of damage, it is an understatement, not an exaggeration.

As for the argument that Guardian gain more power, ferocity and precision from gear, that’s true, but that’s the same for all classes which hasn’t ran 66xxx before, hence I put “relative” earlier. Other classes such as Eles and Warrior actually RETAIN their multipliers and got extra stuffs added.

Sure, because of the new gear stats you might see your damage unchanged or “increased” a little, but then every other classes has their damage multiplied by 1.2, or 1.3 instead of staying the same.

Also yes I agree that in record run nowaday guardians are already less seen but because what you said that guardians have something to contribute such as reflect and blocks and their damage is semi-decent that’s why you see many in pug groups. Now, guardians have the same things they have always contributed but their dps contribution will be pathetic compare to the rest of the other classes with the exception of possibly necro. Hence there are the more reason to not bring a guardian and replace it with a mesmer in meta runs instead, thus the POINT of this thread.

As for the trait Radiant Retaliation: the formula for retaliation is this:

Retaliation damage = 198 + (0.075 * Power)

In PvE, obviously Power > Condition Damage, now replace Power with Condition Damage

Retaliation damage = 198 + (0.075 * Condition Damage)

Obviously, the new retaliation damage would be lower, why would you even want to use it?

Stars.2179:

It’s stated above if you actually read and learn how to do the math. Guardians lost most their multipliers. 10% from powerful blades, 10% from radiant power, 20% from unscathed contender – which one would take master of consecration. It is at 1.1×1.1×1.2 = 1.452 which is actually a 45% lost in direct damage. Even if you count unscathed contender as only a 25% upkeep, it would be 1.1×1.1×1.05 = 1.2705 which is a 27.05% damage reduction. When I said 20% loss of damage, it is an understatement, not an exaggeration.

I dont get it.
why did we lose unsceathed contender? yes you loose 10% sword + 10% radient power modifier but you get 20% for mace on reduced cool downs… and better sustain.
And why wouldnt you go for hammer and 6/0/0/6/6 traitline for highest dps? (hammer/mace is where the dps will be I believe)

1.1 × 1.2. × 1.2 x 1.10 (power of Virtues) + (1.1 on for symbols) am I missing something?

Stars.2179:

Even if you count unscathed contender as only a 25% upkeep, it would be 1.1×1.1×1.05 = 1.2705 which is a 27.05% damage reduction.

WoR is not always needed. And if it is, the trait is not always needed.
So guards are not totally loosing unscathed contender.
You’re not always fighting with your sword, you might want to use your GS too.
To get the total amount of lost damage you have to take the actual damage and subtract the amount of damage before.
So your formula should be “dmg mod*dmg mod – old dmg mod*old dmg mod”.
Lets say you got a 50% uptime on retaliation (i think 100% could be possible), 4% for symbol dmg trait, 5% for sword: 1,05*1,04-1,1*1,05*1,05= ~ -12%

Lets say you get a 40% symbol uptime with a GS+mace: 1,05*1,08-1,1*1,05*1,05=~ -8%. Great.
You still get a 10% crit chance, an option to use unscathed, you can have more than 50% retaliation uptime, get more burn, etc.

Stars.2179:

Retaliation damage = 198 + (0.075 * Condition Damage)

Wiki says the formula for Radiant Retaliation is:
198 + (0.15 * Condition Damage)
twice the amount of the power formula. Makes a bit sense.
But only if you want to do dmg via retaliation. And if you want to run a condiguard at the same time, without using the burn trait. Well…Anet…

Did everybody forget about the quickness shout already? :<

Keksmuffin.1450:

Did everybody forget about the quickness shout already? :<

No, just it’s the same issue with litany, their counterparts are still far superior. (Rf and shelter)

Well if you’re talking about 8 (soon to be 9) classes and speed clears, well someone has to be first and someone has to be last. Generally there will be a 1-5 best classes and the other 7-3 (8-4 soon) will not be needed for the absolute fastest time possible.

Complaining about that is an insult to your own intelligence and that of everyone here.

What you should be looking at is the relative DPS difference between the classes and the utility they bring vs cost of the utility.

Generally I’m just going to wait and see how it plays out and for those that have a deeper knowledge of the games damage formulae and power coefficients to work out the DPS rankings.

Also bow down before your hammer guard overlords, carrying bad pugs with perma protection, healing and infinite light fields for that sweet retaliation my ele hates blasting. Good thing PS warrs are getting boosted to the point you’d have to be brain dead to not run it.

Asmodal.6489:

Stars.2179:

Guardians lost most their multipliers.

I dont get it.

why wouldnt you go for hammer and 6/0/0/6/6 traitline for highest dps? (hammer/mace is where the dps will be I believe)

At the cost of ALL mobility.

Currently guard’s had good mobility and could shadow some of the top burst builds.

Now, we loose ALL mobility to take the best burst build, yet other classes didn’t have to make the same sacrifice.

Additionally, we can keep the mobility, but SIGNIFICANTLY loose our burst. No one is going to stand in a kitten symbol…. just like only an idiot is going to stand in an necro well.

Good thing we’re getting pushed into using Bows and stacking Burns… sort of.

I think the changes are okay, and there doesn’t seem to be much DPS loss overall. Lets take a regular Greatsword/Sword + Focus setup as example.

We lost %10 damage from attacking a foe with condition, but we have %10 damage from having Retaliation. The modifier is not as easy to keep as before, but its still close. With Greatsword symbol, leaping after the symbol (Light Aura) and perhaps using Focus 5 (AoE Retal) after swap in the symbol would give some retaliation we can use. If Virtues was selected along with Zeal/Radiance combo, one can have nigh permanent Retaliation (Retal on using virtues, bonus Retal duration). If the setup still lacks Retal (solo situations) Save Yourselves can be used as a dps cooldown. With %1 damage bonus on each boon and Retal, it instantly gives %18 more dps – not withstanding the effects of the boons themselves. Overall, I think this can be a fair exchange and we can see Save Yourselves being used instead of Bane Signet as dps utility.

We lost Vulnurability on blind – as a Greatsword/Sword + Focus setup should always choose Zealous Blade (Greatsword trait). I didn’t like this as well, but I never considered Guardians particularly good about applying Vulnurability. Considering a group setup, with some other classes getting Vulnurability buffs I guess the loss evens out. As for the new Zealous Blade trait, we are now given %20 cooldown decrease on Greatsword, which should be a dps increase nonetheless.

We lost %10 damage for Sword, but we have %20 damage from maintaining symbols. These numbers aren’t direct damage increases of course. Assuming that in GS/Sw + F setup one uses the Sword half of the time at best (Greatsword can demand more time with its cooldowns) we lost at most %5 damage. With the new setup we have a symbol lasting for 4 seconds on 16 sec cooldown (%25 uptime). In a perfect world the change should neutralize the loss, as long as mobs don’t move outside the symbol. But honestly, did they ever do that?

We lost %3 damage from Fiery Wrath, but should the GS/Sw + F choose to go to Virtues (it seems best for that setup), the damage loss can be compensated with Power of the Virtuous.

So in my opinion, the numbers still seem the same with core traits – for GS/Sw + F. For other setups with higher symbol upkeep and Retal upkeep (I am looking at you Hammer/Mace + Focus) – the numbers should be much better.

Returning to GS/Sw + F setup, we should have about the same dps from traits with more utility, as we can go as deep as we want to Virtues without sacrificing any traits from other lines. We can finally have the Master and Greatmaster trait options in Virtues without thinking about Zeal and Radiance. It is true we can’t have Master of Consecrations with Unscathed Contender – but I don’t think it would be too big of an issue. I don’t know about you, but when I use Master of Consecrations in dungeons its because I can either not benefit that much from Unscathed Contender for the time, or I provide the majority of projectile defense. I am sure all of you are familiar with WoR/Shield of Avenger/WoR combo that comes with Master of Consecrations and if you are like me you are using this trait mostly for this combo. This combo still will be there as the duration of Shield of Avenger is increased by %50 (10 sec) as baseline. If you are using the trait for more condition removal (Purging Flames cooldown) – now we are free to choose Absolute Precision. If its for more fire field duration well, Phalanx Warrior is getting more popular. So, overall there shouldn’t be much loss in there.

Note: These are the damage modifiers that exist only in the core specs. It seems that with Dragonhunter we will have up to %25 more damage. And this thread is about PvE.

Stars.2179:

It’s stated above if you actually read and learn how to do the math. Guardians lost most their multipliers. 10% from powerful blades, 10% from radiant power, 20% from unscathed contender – which one would take master of consecration. It is at 1.1×1.1×1.2 = 1.452 which is actually a 45% lost in direct damage. Even if you count unscathed contender as only a 25% upkeep, it would be 1.1×1.1×1.05 = 1.2705 which is a 27.05% damage reduction. When I said 20% loss of damage, it is an understatement, not an exaggeration.

That’s a terrible way of estimating the change in dps. First of all, there is no reason to not take UC if you go into virtue. MoC is a situational trait, that most guardian use rarely. Both 6/6/2/0/0 and 4/6/2/0/2 already don’t use MoC and one of them don’t even use UC. So what, not having UC is a nerf to 6/6/2/0/0 which don’t use UC? Powerful blades is only for Sword, meaning that it’s not a 10% nerf, but more close to 3-4%, since less than half of your damage come from Sword in a normal rotation. Radiant Power didn’t disappeared. It’s now 10% crit chance, which is around 2-4% nerf depending on crit chance and crit dmg. So the first problem is that you are completely wrong with your assumption.

2nd, you only took 3 trait out of everything. You didn’t talk about the 3% nerf of fiery wrath, but you also didn’t talked about the 20% CD reduction for the GS, which is a huge deal. Hard to estimate the percentage of increased damage from that, but it’s substancial. You didn’t talked about the additional burning from Symbolic power. You didn’t talked about symbolic avenger, which could be a 20% damage increase (we don’t know yet the final number). You talk about the nerf to AW, but what about the fact that we won’t waste burning anymore. So many thing you didn’t took into account.

And you also didn’t took into account the new stats. Depending on how they choose to distribute them, we full zerker could have his damage buff by transferring some defensive stats from trait to only damage stats from gear.

The reality is that, until we can play with the number and see in-game all those details, we have not even a clue of what will be the dps of any profession. We can extrapolate, but really, we are all talking through our hats.

Arken.3725:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Did everybody forget about the quickness shout already? :<

No, just it’s the same issue with litany, their counterparts are still far superior. (Rf and shelter)

I’m not sure about that. Renewed focus is now the best option, but it’s mostly a defensive ability. The shout will be superior when dps is needed, which will be most dungeon.

The meta is going to change for sure. The question is how to effectively distribute the points in every specialization in order to maximize DPS. I do feel that many on this forum are being a little bit too dramatic right now regarding the announced trait changes. Although I have to admit I am somewhat less excited than before.

• It is almost certain that the Zeal specialization will become standard for dungeons. Symbolic Avenger and Fiery Wrath add a significant amount to personal damage so it simply can’t be ignored. The question remains how to effectively utilize Symbolic Avenger. Will it be Hammer, Mace or Greatsword?

• The Honor specialization can add a lot for Symbolic Avenger as Writ of Persistence gives the guardian a permanent symbol while adding a bunch of other attributes to symbols. The usefulness of this specialization will also depend on whether Empowering Might will get an ICD or not.

• The Virtue specialization will definitely be useful with Unscathed Contender and Virtuous Mallet. Otherwise more supportive traits like Absolute Resolution and Indomitable Courage can leave utility slots open for Bane Signet, Retreat or Wall of Reflection.

• The Radiance specialization doesn’t seem to work well together with the Zeal specialization. There could be a possibility for builds with burning by using the torch. Radiant Fire and Amplified Wrath still look like very interesting traits. Although I am still unsure how our damage potential is with burning. Perhaps we can stack up burning first with the torch and then switch over to hammer to do sustainable damage together with the symbols.

From a PvE perspective, I’m liking the change particularly the burn changes. While I am a little sad to sad the raw damage modifiers go out the window I do enjoy seeing the Guard’s high burn availability and even more so to see that my burns will actually make a difference (save a certain type of monster, cough). Even with no investment in condi duration/damage the added damage from the ticking burn makes up for the loss in raw damage. Running a few modest numbers I’d assume a Guard would be able to maintain 3-4 stacks of burning at minimum in which case that’s an added ~450 damage per second. Again, no clue what the actual numbers will be until we go live and can see what the sustain/application model will be. Though once Hunter comes out the spear of justice will heavy help to add burn ticks to our damage.

As far as the other damage modifiers are concerned.

A 45005 Sw/f + GS build would look something like this if spec’d for ZRVi
7% Fiery Wrath
10% Symbolic Exposure
10% Retribution
20% Symbolic Avenger (?)
20% Unscathed contender
x% Power of the Virtuous

M/F + GS
Elite shout for added damage.

Granted a build like that leaves many of our defensive options to be used offensively, but for PvE that’s generally not an issue.

Personally I run a 46202 build so choosing between MoC and UC is already a choice I’m making.

AW taking a nerf was needed. In burst numbers the 33% → 15% burning difference only lost a few hundred points of damage per second, but high stacks of burning with high malice stats could be be devastating in the long run.

Same with Radiance. Without any investment into precision you could have a 25% crit chance against burning foes + 15% for a main hand weapon + another 20% from fury generated by another Radiance trait. So a Guard could easily obtain a 60% crit chance before adding precision. The updated number is now 45% (10% instead of 25%) which even running full soldier’s would be a very solid number to have without very much effort. Again, theory vs reality for the time being.

Arken.3725:

Keksmuffin.1450:

Did everybody forget about the quickness shout already? :<

No, just it’s the same issue with litany, their counterparts are still far superior. (Rf and shelter)

In dungeons it’s obviously far better and less selfish than renewed focus in 90% of the situations. In the record runs that have guardians in it people are already using the tome which has like 6 times the cooldown and is clunky as hell. It’s quite a big buff for guardians in PvE imo.

The Fiery Wrath nerf is completely unjustified when you take into account the fact that burning uptime is already getting severely nerfed with the intensity stacking change. Pretty baffling IMO.

Wait seriously nobody in this thread looking at the new shout elite? It’s as much uptime as time warp, with a 30 second cooldown base so it’ll be up EVERY stack. If anything guards getting even more mandatory.

Linnael.1069:

Wait seriously nobody in this thread looking at the new shout elite? It’s as much uptime as time warp, with a 30 second cooldown base so it’ll be up EVERY stack. If anything guards getting even more mandatory.

this

Linnael.1069:

Wait seriously nobody in this thread looking at the new shout elite? It’s as much uptime as time warp, with a 30 second cooldown base so it’ll be up EVERY stack. If anything guards getting even more mandatory.

I’m not so sure. The quickness only lasts 5 seconds, and fury is already easily provided by warriors and eles. Sure, it’ll be a valuable skill, but at best it only makes up for all of the damage and utility nerfs we’re getting.

Time warp is still king due to the Quickness/slow for 10 seconds especially since it is considered as a glamour for trait purposes. Though I am absolutely okay with tossing aside a book in favor of an inspiring shout for Quickness. Honestly, I only every used Wrath for the quickness skill, and if I was really awesome that day I could pull off two quicknesses….at the cost of all that burn spam.

Black Box.9312:

The Fiery Wrath nerf is completely unjustified when you take into account the fact that burning uptime is already getting severely nerfed with the intensity stacking change. Pretty baffling IMO.

Im guessing they are assuming the base guard will be taking Radiance + Virtues for the ZF on crit and the Improved VoJ passive + PW which wont be terrible with the buff to burn duration

savacli.8172:

Time warp is still king due to the Quickness/slow for 10 seconds especially since it is considered as a glamour for trait purposes. Though I am absolutely okay with tossing aside a book in favor of an inspiring shout for Quickness. Honestly, I only every used Wrath for the quickness skill, and if I was really awesome that day I could pull off two quicknesses….at the cost of all that burn spam.

This is going to be better than time warp by far. Availability is the key here given that pretty much every fight is over in 5 seconds with quickness, and the ones that aren’t are the ones with invuln/block phases that waste time warp. Don’t forget the guard elite is a shout as well.

Strictly speaking PvE though burning uptime should still be viable with combined efforts from other classes (particularly from Fire Spec Ele’s).

As far as quickness goes: the availability of the raw boon itself? Yes, Fear my Wrath will be superior. Overall though Time Warp still has immense power due to its area pulsing effect that acts as a form of soft control since opposing players will suffer heavy drawbacks from fighting on that field. So for WvW or PvP the dual effect from the skill can be a game changer. Faster rezzing while your opponent has to spend more time to deliver a stomp? Whoa.

Anyways, we digress…

Guardian hype!

I’m levelling my guardian as we speak. Legit answers should I jump ship or will we be fine? Only other class I have is engi. Only other class I’d enjoy is probably mesmer or elementalist. Should I stay guard?

Fiery Wrath is a 3% damage loss while hitting a target on fire. 3% is literally nothing as far as time to kill goes.

If I’m in a dungeon, I’m going to be taking “FMW” over RF for sure.

Also, once again bowing to our Hammer/Mace overlords, let’s not forget the Mace trait in honor provides cd reduction for even more symbol uptime. Essentially permanent with the longer lasting symbols.

Vizardlorde.8243:

Black Box.9312:

The Fiery Wrath nerf is completely unjustified when you take into account the fact that burning uptime is already getting severely nerfed with the intensity stacking change. Pretty baffling IMO.

Im guessing they are assuming the base guard will be taking Radiance + Virtues for the ZF on crit and the Improved VoJ passive + PW which wont be terrible with the buff to burn duration

Even with that, I still don’t think that it’s worth nerfing the damage modifier, especially considering what we’re already losing with things like Radiant Power, Elusive Power, etc. If anything, it would have made more sense to move it up a tier in place of Kindled Zeal and keep it at 10%. That way it would actually have some decent competition between Zealous Blade and Binding Jeopardy while still being a strong choice itself.

Adjust.6903:

I’m levelling my guardian as we speak. Legit answers should I jump ship or will we be fine? Only other class I have is engi. Only other class I’d enjoy is probably mesmer or elementalist. Should I stay guard?

Enjoy until next week

Adjust.6903:

I’m levelling my guardian as we speak. Legit answers should I jump ship or will we be fine? Only other class I have is engi. Only other class I’d enjoy is probably mesmer or elementalist. Should I stay guard?

It will be just fine people are crying over nothing

I don’t know why they are pushing us into symbols, traps and similar she.it which are not even good in pve (light fields). If you give us symbol then give it a cripple or something worth slowing enemies in it. One dodge and you are out of symbol and god thank all those vigor things and sigils that improve dodge…..
As I said we need new dev who knows our skills not someone who don’t even play guardian at all.

Adjust.6903:

I’m levelling my guardian as we speak. Legit answers should I jump ship or will we be fine? Only other class I have is engi. Only other class I’d enjoy is probably mesmer or elementalist. Should I stay guard?

Guardian will still be the best class around, other classes just needed compensation for how awesome Guardian is

Ragnarox.9601:

I don’t know why they are pushing us into symbols, traps and similar she.it which are not even good in pve (light fields). If you give us symbol then give it a cripple or something worth slowing enemies in it. One dodge and you are out of symbol and god thank all those vigor things and sigils that improve dodge…..
As I said we need new dev who knows our skills not someone who don’t even play guardian at all.

I like that they push us toward symbols. It push toward more skillful use of, well of our skills. GS + M/x for exemple, will need a good rotation to achieve maximum dps. The difference between someone that master his guardian and someone that don’t will be more apparent.

Black Box.9312:

The Fiery Wrath nerf is completely unjustified when you take into account the fact that burning uptime is already getting severely nerfed with the intensity stacking change. Pretty baffling IMO.

how is the stacking part effecting the uptime???

VoJ passive proc now lasts 2 sec instead of 1sec … makes it twice as good for maintaing the burn stack. add in rune of flame legion and we are talking about 3secs every 5th strike.

Sword chain is also 2.5 secs means we got 100% uptime on burn form VoJ alone. mace and hammer can achieve 100% uptime with traited symbols easily.

If anything we got a buff on the uptime.

Thaddeus.4891:

Ragnarox.9601:

I don’t know why they are pushing us into symbols, traps and similar she.it which are not even good in pve (light fields). If you give us symbol then give it a cripple or something worth slowing enemies in it. One dodge and you are out of symbol and god thank all those vigor things and sigils that improve dodge…..
As I said we need new dev who knows our skills not someone who don’t even play guardian at all.

I like that they push us toward symbols. It push toward more skillful use of, well of our skills. GS + M/x for exemple, will need a good rotation to achieve maximum dps. The difference between someone that master his guardian and someone that don’t will be more apparent.

You can’t win in pvp without 1 range option. Mesmer will destroy you with shatter clones, necro will destroy you with aoe’s , rangers will kill you with traps (lost of them recently), thief will just stay out of symbols and range you with shortbow, warriors – well you know – burn you to death with shoutbow or hambow’s … symbols are bad even compared to DH traps….they are just death sentence.

Ragnarox.9601:

I don’t know why they are pushing us into symbols, traps and similar she.it which are not even good in pve (light fields). If you give us symbol then give it a cripple or something worth slowing enemies in it. One dodge and you are out of symbol and god thank all those vigor things and sigils that improve dodge…..
As I said we need new dev who knows our skills not someone who don’t even play guardian at all.

we already seeing phalanx warriors taking over the pre might stacking part. so the light field will not be as much of an issue. how we get pushed into traps is beyond me. yes the vurnability stacking is cool but it really is not needed. A lot of setups will be able to achieve that in other ways. and how come we are no on enemies dodging symbols in a PvE thread?

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

The Fiery Wrath nerf is completely unjustified when you take into account the fact that burning uptime is already getting severely nerfed with the intensity stacking change. Pretty baffling IMO.

how is the stacking part effecting the uptime???

VoJ passive proc now lasts 2 sec instead of 1sec … makes it twice as good for maintaing the burn stack. add in rune of flame legion and we are talking about 3secs every 5th strike.

Sword chain is also 2.5 secs means we got 100% uptime on burn form VoJ alone. mace and hammer can achieve 100% uptime with traited symbols easily.

If anything we got a buff on the uptime.

Sword is going in the garbage can as far as PvE is concerned, and you’re not going to get kittens in quickly and consistently enough for 100% uptime on VoJ passive with any other weapon. Best case scenario is that you get more than 50% uptime with the passive and the active becomes entirely useless in PvE.

Black Box.9312:

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

The Fiery Wrath nerf is completely unjustified when you take into account the fact that burning uptime is already getting severely nerfed with the intensity stacking change. Pretty baffling IMO.

how is the stacking part effecting the uptime???

VoJ passive proc now lasts 2 sec instead of 1sec … makes it twice as good for maintaing the burn stack. add in rune of flame legion and we are talking about 3secs every 5th strike.

Sword chain is also 2.5 secs means we got 100% uptime on burn form VoJ alone. mace and hammer can achieve 100% uptime with traited symbols easily.

If anything we got a buff on the uptime.

Sword is going in the garbage can as far as PvE is concerned, and you’re not going to get kittens in quickly and consistently enough for 100% uptime on VoJ passive with any other weapon. Best case scenario is that you get more than 50% uptime with the passive and the active becomes entirely useless in PvE.

As far as PVE is concerned you will have burn up all the time. because you can actually go for a 100% condi duration. which makes the base application last 4 secs.

adding in sigils of air and fire will work twords VoJ proc too so really I think you are crafting a problem where there is none.

Explain to me how burn uptime was better before if you just consider VoJ? And also if you factor in anything else that did not even change? Ji is the same duration, burn on block is longer… so how?

I really do not get it.

Currently with burning duration as is, by using the active you can apply 5 sec burning * 5 players, which is 25 seconds of burning, which is typically less than or equal to the cooldown of the virtue. With the current meta build, this also blinds the enemy, applies 3 stacks of vulnerability, and grants 3 might to allies.

With the changes, it’s unlikely that PvE meta will use Radiance, which means no blind, no vulnerability, and no +20% burning duration. This is compounded by the fact that with burning stacking in intensity, activating the virtue will grant 5 stacks of burning for 5 seconds, which leaves about 15-20 seconds of downtime where Fiery Wrath is entirely useless.

So at best? You can get decent burning uptime with VoJ passive at the cost of losing a ton of utility. That alone counts as a pretty hefty nerf to Fiery Wrath, albeit maybe an indirect one, if you ask me.

Also how exactly are you going to get +100% condi duration in PvE? I must have missed something important if that’s the case.

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

Asmodal.6489:

Black Box.9312:

The Fiery Wrath nerf is completely unjustified when you take into account the fact that burning uptime is already getting severely nerfed with the intensity stacking change. Pretty baffling IMO.

how is the stacking part effecting the uptime???

VoJ passive proc now lasts 2 sec instead of 1sec … makes it twice as good for maintaing the burn stack. add in rune of flame legion and we are talking about 3secs every 5th strike.

Sword chain is also 2.5 secs means we got 100% uptime on burn form VoJ alone. mace and hammer can achieve 100% uptime with traited symbols easily.

If anything we got a buff on the uptime.

Sword is going in the garbage can as far as PvE is concerned, and you’re not going to get kittens in quickly and consistently enough for 100% uptime on VoJ passive with any other weapon. Best case scenario is that you get more than 50% uptime with the passive and the active becomes entirely useless in PvE.

As far as PVE is concerned you will have burn up all the time. because you can actually go for a 100% condi duration. which makes the base application last 4 secs.

adding in sigils of air and fire will work twords VoJ proc too so really I think you are crafting a problem where there is none.

Explain to me how burn uptime was better before if you just consider VoJ? And also if you factor in anything else that did not even change? Ji is the same duration.

I really do not get it.

DH Bow + Permeating Wrath + Supreme Justice + Balthazar runes + air/fire sigils + anti thief traps

I don’t care if it ends up being a gimmick build I’m so excited I could pee!

Looks like we’re going to be all but Staff/Hammer/Bow for WvW w/ the occasional Condi (IE _ BURN ONLY) build….

There went what mobility we had.

I’m not looking forward to the changes at all – the Havoc Squads are all crying inside.

Back to the Healway – noodlearm build w/ “Settlers” and shouts. /cry.

Fiery Wrath took both a direct nerf (7%,) as well as a subtle nerf due to issues with burning uptime. Now, it looks like we’re going to be pretty dependant on other classes to help make use of this trait without putting together a burn-focus build. Though an Ele or Engi on the team should be able to maintain uptime on this.