Guild Wars 2

Oh yea, this thread again. Guardians aren’t designed to be escape artists, they’re designed to soak up & mitigate damage. Having said that, we have sword teleport, Retreat!, Save Yourself!, GS leap, hammer dome, staff wall….a bunch of stuff to improve our speed and hamper the baddy’s.

Most of you are responding to me with the positive sides of the guardian lol like i am not aware of them. Understand that i know all about those and they are not neccessary to bring up at all and this thread is not about that. There are plenty of threads about our good side. This one is about a lack of a mechanic in the class that pushed me to shelve it.

Also most of you respond with things back at me that i never even stated anywhere.
I do not wanna be able to just stand in a zerg of 50 ppl alone and get away. I want when my side is retreating to be able to retreat with them!! How hard is this to understand lol. Most of the time i cant cause theres no mob, my purge sills are on cooldown, i have allot of aggro on me due to my battle presence as melee and a guardian. I also am not saying we have 0 survivability i am saying we have 0 panic buttons! We survive and tank plenty and it is amazing. But create any other class with our same stats and similar traits and they tank just as well and have panic buttons.

Heres a situation that has happend not just once, please read carefully and then tell me what more could i have done:

Me and a thief and a mesmer + 50 more others on our side meet an enemy zerg. We start fighting. The ranged classes get in to the usual ranged dmg aoe standoff and nothing is happening. We just ressin the sqwishies that die to aoe. So its the melee’s job to start pushing and we as guardians are godlike in this department. So me the guardian and the thief and mesmer start pushing them and breakin up their zerg since we are on TS its all in sync. They know i have to be up front so the support me and follow targets. But the enemy is resilliant and decides to push back. Our ranged ppl start backing off leaving us unsupported. This is the melee curse.
Ofcourse me and my pt is the first to get focused since we are up front in their face (closest Tab) and we have to back up. So we try to back up.
The thief stealths and de-aggros the enemy zerg then blinks away with shortbow.
The mesmer switches place with clone then stealths and hes gone from enemy aggro.
The guardian clenses all the roots stuns and what not starts moving but is still everyones target since he is so freakin visible. Look for a mob, no mob around. While im cleansing the debuffs from me i try to snowleopard it gets interuppted cause of long cast. I’ve also tested renewed focus and tomes here and mercyfull intervention even lol but nope again and again im crippled, imobilzed pinned down. No rune effect is effective enough to have helped me out of that “stunlock” No mather what i do i cant lose target. I spamm all my blinds but its not enough. Soon im dead.
I see my friends the thief and mesmer are already 1200+ range away. My side is now badly damaged and moving more and more back, Then i see if theres a chance to get ressed for a few sec and confirm and go repair and get back with the group that got away.

^this is what im talkjng about,
not 1v1s (wich are in guardians favor most of the time and maybe this is why ppl say we op lol)
not 1v50
not about the good things.
Im bringing up this thing that iv noticed we lack and am here tellin you to be aware of it. You will be in these similar situations form time to time and remember if you were on another class you would not have died then and there.

Can we just end this thread now and let the op go be a ele so we can kill him on his new toon? Really nothing you have stated is true. It’s just your lack of knowledge about your class and more so other classes. My advice is you should spend a couple weeks in spvp and learn counters.

Well the simple solution is don’t retreat. Stand and fight and be aggresive (this works better then you expect).

When i run with my guild (10-15 members) and we face a zerg. We almost never retreat but charge them head on because most of them will retreat because they are afraid of dying.

StugLyfe.2134:

Can we just end this thread now and let the op go be a ele so we can kill him on his new toon? Really nothing you have stated is true. It’s just your lack of knowledge about your class and more so other classes. My advice is you should spend a couple weeks in spvp and learn counters.

Your respons is “try a small scale 5v5 or 8v8 to see how you could learn to survive in the other completly different way of pvp” lol pro tip and sooo on point xD

SintLucifer.4206:

Well the simple solution is don’t retreat. Stand and fight and be aggresive (this works better then you expect).

When i run with my guild (10-15 members) and we face a zerg. We almost never retreat but charge them head on because most of them will retreat because they are afraid of dying.

I hear ya man and it works at times definetly. But in times that it doesnt work and enemy aint afraid of dying you have to retreat. Classes have a huge chance of retreating but guardian in the end has very few real ones.

Most of the people in the thread are tellin me l2p lol how can i l2p without a propper de aggro skill also knows as a panic button. I can not l2p a thing that isnt there in the game!

Listen man I came here to try and help you out but you seem to know it all. You have L2P issues but can’t admit that because you’re so L33T nothing more to do here m8. I would still help you in game if you like. PST me anytime we can Wv3 togethor depending on server.

I think most of your are missing Hostility’s point by trying to tell everyone work-arounds. That point is Guardians are missing two important aspects all other classes do a lot better with: range and escape.

I’ve only done a little W3 myself, but lets face it, W3 is a range game. If you go melee, you need good escape.

Sure all of you do have some good suggestions, and I’ll take these to mind, but maybe there does need to be some changes. Increase scepter’s range, give us a bow or gun. A simple un-fix to sword #2 to require no target. Increase the range for Merciful Intervention and definitely reduce that CD.

Not asking for all of those, but just throwing out some ideas there.

So your issue is with your team then. If your team falls back and you rushed you are more than likely going to die. I kittened about that on the WvW forums for my server that people needed to grow some balls. I also learned not to expect zergs to leap in like i do unless it is a few people from my guild. It is just a matter of adjusting your gameplay. As i said before hit and run tactics are sometimes required as a guardian in a zerg because the second you go in and no one follows, you are in trouble regardless of class.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

I think most of your are missing Hostility’s point by trying to tell everyone work-arounds. That point is Guardians are missing two important aspects all other classes do a lot better with: range and escape.

I’ve only done a little W3 myself, but lets face it, W3 is a range game. If you go melee, you need good escape.

Sure all of you do have some good suggestions, and I’ll take these to mind, but maybe there does need to be some changes. Increase scepter’s range, give us a bow or gun. A simple un-fix to sword #2 to require no target. Increase the range for Merciful Intervention and definitely reduce that CD.

Not asking for all of those, but just throwing out some ideas there.

See this dude gets it. If its clear to him after a little wvwvw imagine how clear it is to me after 4 months of constant wvwvw in t1 and t2.

Yes you give good tips and workarounds but im just telling you everything you told me i have already tried and tested them. Its not enough to get me out of those situations. It just lacks a de-aggro part.

had a good in game chat with OP he seems like a good person and is gonna role a ele. Sweet gl and hope you like it better.

All the dude is saying that Guardian class has limited options when escaping.
Skills have nothing to do with the post.

Skills + Means >>>> Skills

It will be always like that… And while you are emphasizing so greatly on defender’s skills, why wont you bring in the skills of attackers in the equation? Attacker is also doing his best to make sure that you don’t escape.

You all have agreed that Guardian lacks in this front.

I am playing guardian because I love the class & I wont change. Guardian can stand at some places where others fail. i.e. I have cleared the harpies fractal with just 2 falls with another guardian. Two of us went the whole way due to our support skills.

But that doesn’t change the fact Guardian class has some fatal weaknesses hard-coded in it. You cant say, “Ohhh too bad for you.. You need to be really skilled to play Guardian”. That’s simply not the point here.

This class is like trying to stop smoking -.- It kills me eventualy but its so goood at allot of stuff lol.

After talkin to StugLyfe in game he reminded me of mercyfull intervention teleport that i tested a while ago. At that time it kept porting me to pets before the ppl retreating since pets stayed closer to me in the frey of battle.

Playin wiht it for 20 min now zerg vs zerg and spammin the skill as soon as its up to see if there was a stealth fix to it or somethin and also i remember anet saying healing skills now prioritize players over pets. Might have affected Mercifull too.

So far no pet teleports unless its just me and the pet upfront and other ppl are outside of 1200 range. So i hope i can confirm its lookin for ppl first then pets. I can use it when im front line and no other person around. Sure its not stealth but ill manage if it gives me a few sec to target a distant mob xD
I could live with this semi panic button on my zerg setup toolbar.

So the quittin is postponed for a day or two!

Ya I think MI works much better now, though it’s still a dice roll depending on who’s in your zerg. Watch out if a thief is in even deeper than you are – ported to a friendly thief once only to watch him stealth and me become the only target!

I really think both teh 1-h sword and Judge’s intervention teleports should work as straight ahead teleports if we don’t have a target selected.

Kurieg.4158:

Ya I think MI works much better now, though it’s still a dice roll depending on who’s in your zerg. Watch out if a thief is in even deeper than you are – ported to a friendly thief once only to watch him stealth and me become the only target!

I really think both teh 1-h sword and Judge’s intervention teleports should work as straight ahead teleports if we don’t have a target selected.

Yep sure feels better still no pet ports just gotta watch where ur allies are. Lill more survivability indeed.

Your suggestion would be awesome and basicly fix a whole lot of aggro off us fast

Why not liking the guardian for the stuff it brings to a team, instead of disliking it for the stuff it doesnt bring?

Gurdians bring blocking abilities like no other class. #5 on staff, #5 on hammer and sanctuarry can keep people away from your team in open gate defenses for 10+ seconds. Heck even shield #5 works wonders doing that. Guardians also brings stability to the team, along with group retaliation and protection like no other class.

Use it right, and your team will never want to go without you. Here´s a video that shows what im talking about:

Smokee.1754:

Why not liking the guardian for the stuff it brings to a team, instead of disliking it for the stuff it doesnt bring?

Gurdians bring blocking abilities like no other class. #5 on staff, #5 on hammer and sanctuarry can keep people away from your team in open gate defenses for 10+ seconds. Heck even shield #5 works wonders doing that. Guardians also brings stability to the team, along with group retaliation and protection like no other class.

Use it right, and your team will never want to go without you. Here´s a video that shows what im talking about:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IS0TJU59ESk

Yep i kno all about that mate ankittenhankfull to anet we gots them Great things we can do indeed. Still i think we need a rework on escape methods to bring us on par with others. I dont like beeing fed to enemy cause of mechanics ingame

Still think we need a better scepter range or other range options, but that’s on a different thread anyways

While I agree that guardians lack the overall mobility of some classes, they are not broken because of it by a long shot. I leverage this issue by carrying a staff/hammer combo. I have realized through experience that I rarely have need of any other weapon types unless I am actively at a seige with a pitched battle raging back and forth. It is not difficult to get out of combat at a seige and equip weapons more suited to what you are trying to accomplish; Scepter/Focus for example.

Also, I tend to change utilities on the fly and have purchased them all for my character. Different situations require different things so I watch for things I have seen in the past and prepare accordingly. Yes, I stick to the main three my build was created around, but I will swap them for a specific plan or purpose.

You get 3 or more guardians in a group, you can push into the other teams line with long lasting stability and regeneration. You do this on your own, you have to be really fussy about your targets and you obviously will not last long in the middle of a zerg solo. Using AH a few guardians are very strong, solo they are weak compared to alot of classes.

They nerfed our mobility in beta. It would be nice to remove the nerfs.

I’m a thief, and personally, the only character I avoid fighting against during WvW (in 1v1 I’d try, but never during a zerg fight), are guardians … Sure I know how to escape them when they are going to beat me to pulp if my utilities aren’t on CD, but I can’t defeat them. (Just want to add, with my build it’s hard to actually have my utilities not on CD since I use them during the fight..)
Just wanted to add my 2 cents

Personally I get what hostility is trying to say
even if he is doing in the most dickish way possible.
He’a just saying that the guardian needs like 1 escape move of some sort and that they shouldn’t always be the class that takes the downfall when the zerg starts to go bad.

Honestly I kinda get where hes coming from I do hate getting chased by 4-5 guys left by a zerg for 10 minutes till they finally get me down because even though I’m able to outlast and regen from there hits for awhile the are still always in hitting range of me so I never really had a chance to get away.

If I could make just a slight change to the guardian class I would actually just make judges intervention both a target and a leap. It wouldn’t be like were an ele and running around with ride the lightning every 15 seconds but it will allow us to have a minor mimic of the skill (be aware judges intervention has a 45 second cd ,36 if traited but honestly that’s two ride the lightnings) so its not a huge mimic of the move just something to get us a little piece of evasive movement.

Relentliss.2170:

You get 3 or more guardians in a group, you can push into the other teams line with long lasting stability and regeneration. You do this on your own, you have to be really fussy about your targets and you obviously will not last long in the middle of a zerg solo. Using AH a few guardians are very strong, solo they are weak compared to alot of classes.

They nerfed our mobility in beta. It would be nice to remove the nerfs.

I can imagine how deadly 3-4 guardians with a good setup pushing ppl forward with wall and staff and good dmg can be. I mean if i can push back 20 ppl alone imagine 3 or 4 more >.<
And ya its really really fussy doin it alone if i miss a retreat action for a split second everyones on my kitten xD

How was the mobility different in beta? I know hp was bigger too and flashing blade had ground. Dunno bout rest.

Was roaming with a D/D Ele yesterday in EB we were capturing camps and everything until we finally got shut down… by a group of 8 people. She told me to run and I’m like… dude I have no escape mechanisms… and there she lightnings away… it was fun while it lasted and at one point we were holding pretty well against 4 of them, but more of their buddies showed up.

I feel you bro!
I love roaming, but sadly … Guardians cannot roam alone because they lack mobility.

>> How was the mobility different in beta? I know hp was bigger too and flashing blade had ground. Dunno bout rest.

In Beta you could use Flashing Blade or JI to port back to friendly targets. It made a lot of sense in WvW. You could use JI + leap to get into your foes. Chuck down some smack, swap to sword/shield, and Flashing Blade back to your friends. THIS is the reason we have no speed boost like every other class in the game. They nerfed this non-aggressive leaping but never gave us a signet or tactic to boost our speed. It was a subtle but huge nerf.

I get where the OP is coming from as well. I just think that’s it’s an unreasonable position to have. Guardians don’t have ranged options for a reason, as well as any other deficiency you want to say they possess. I can’t believe that a lack of some ability is just a frivolous decisions on the part of the devs. If you feel trolled, it’s because it shows a lack of comprehension to why certain design decisions are affecting Guardians.

Furthermore, people are capable of performing very well with Guardians so the statements being made are not representative of the general capability of Guardians. In other words, the OP is making biased predispositions with the intention of turning players off of the class. Those players need to figure out what works for them. It’s the player, not the class.

Relentliss.2170:

>> How was the mobility different in beta? I know hp was bigger too and flashing blade had ground. Dunno bout rest.

In Beta you could use Flashing Blade or JI to port back to friendly targets. It made a lot of sense in WvW. You could use JI + leap to get into your foes. Chuck down some smack, swap to sword/shield, and Flashing Blade back to your friends. THIS is the reason we have no speed boost like every other class in the game. They nerfed this non-aggressive leaping but never gave us a signet or tactic to boost our speed. It was a subtle but huge nerf.

Omg O.O
Saving JI then piggyback on some running friendly would work wonders >.< 1200 range escape like every other freakin class -.-

*crys in a corner cursing the devs

Maybe we shud start a petition to get that thing back?

I was talking about Judges intervention not merciful …. merciful is a dungeon skill IMO

AND when combined with Sword 3 it gives u 1800m of instant Blink add that to GS 3 and wow 2400M, you can be gone fast but you have to practice this. The trick is u have to target something ahead of u IE any enemy on the flank or a creature etc. We need a trait for Ground targeting Meditations IMO.

Yep i know all about the mobs. if i spot a mob i usualy survive exaccly how u said it. Wish there were more mobs tho lol they aint around everywhere. At least more rabbits anet!

have you used scepter, staff, hammer or GS? i’ve stopped many people on the run before. i’ve stopped even more trying to get into their keep / tower that we’re zerging.

on the other side, i’ve escaped squads of 10 people chasing me and watch as they give up. i’ve managed to take down two people while trying to run form a group of 15.

the Guardian can be extremely effective and amazing in WvW.

akamon.2769:

have you used scepter, staff, hammer or GS? i’ve stopped many people on the run before. i’ve stopped even more trying to get into their keep / tower that we’re zerging.

on the other side, i’ve escaped squads of 10 people chasing me and watch as they give up. i’ve managed to take down two people while trying to run form a group of 15.

the Guardian can be extremely effective and amazing in WvW.

Yep had scepter shield and focus and gs and sword all the combos tried. Even condition duration increases + signet of corruption and knockdown and hammer spirit. Ppl are just too slippery when skilled Would you like me to tell you how they got away like what skills and such?

I’v also escaped 10 ppl and managed to down hell even 5 ppl at once with my aoe.
JI 1.3k burning + Focus aoe crit 5-6k then mighty blow 7k boom few more swings ppl dead lol prolly all in bezerk but whateva.

Ok seriously lol

People keep telling me all day today about the good sides of this class for some reason or common knowledge that should be learned within 4 months of gameplay lol. Some are even acting like its a sin to talk bad about the guardian like its a perfect class without any flaws lol.

What’s up with that what are you/they trying to accomplish?

I know about all the things guardian is good at. Hell it kept me playing for 4 months riding on the good stuff. That doesnt mean i should ignore all the things guardian is bad at (escape and range) while every other class is good at it.

Im just here to inform u a legit reason for me to drop the class for a while hoping for a change and to inform you to be aware of the fact we had an escape system and it was nerfed for some weird reason and that today i feel it in my way of gameplay constantly since im doing pvp on a whole bigger level than ever before.

I dont need cheering up or all the positive thinking lol. Im already cheerful and positive thinking. Unless Anet changes back some skills the reality is the same no mather how much u sugarcoat it or troll me to l2p lol

Hostility.4961:

Most of you are responding to me with the positive sides of the guardian lol like i am not aware of them. Understand that i know all about those and they are not neccessary to bring up at all and this thread is not about that. There are plenty of threads about our good side. This one is about a lack of a mechanic in the class that pushed me to shelve it.

So you only want posts from people who agree with you? Sorry bud, you started a conversation in an open forum.

Your point is that Guardians can’t escape and retreat.
Our point is that’s not what the Guardian was designed for.

If you want a retreating profession, reroll. You have to play a profession to its strengths. It’s like complaining in the thief forum that they don’t have tanking skills. Really, you have to play to the strengths and not be upset when a profession can’t do everything better than the rest. Guardians have escape skills, just not the best. Learn to use em better, or stand strong and face your enemy.

Agree with Seras and the others.

Every class in GW2 has weakness, the guardians main weakness are 1) craptastic range attacks 2) lack of escape tools.

Now i agree that running in small scale/solo wvw with a guardian requires a lot of awareness or you will get caught by random larger groups. But that is the price we pay for our fantastic utility, control and survivability. Yea if you want to be a tunnel vision dps then a guardian isnt the best choice, but if you want a class that will make a massive difference in group vs group fighting then its the best choice.

The guardian might be the most group “depended” class in WvW, the more ppl and the better the organization, the better the guardian gets.

You made me laugh so much today !

Go ahead, try the elementalist in WvW ahahah, if you think guardians are squishy you’ll love elementalists !! Anyway I don’t know what you’re complaining about you have a guardian, I’ve been able to escape from groups of 5-10 alone with my virtues, ring of warding, retreat, save yourselves, etc..etc… staff # 3 and #5… and I’m sure they were crying ’ WHY WON’T YOU DIE !!’ Sure we could have an easy escape like teleport anywhere we want but hey you can’t have everything.

Everyone loves us and everyone hates especially thiefs since they can’t one-shot us. Oh did I mention Thiefs ? You’ll love them as well as an ele ;3

Seras.5702:

Hostility.4961:

Most of you are responding to me with the positive sides of the guardian lol like i am not aware of them. Understand that i know all about those and they are not neccessary to bring up at all and this thread is not about that. There are plenty of threads about our good side. This one is about a lack of a mechanic in the class that pushed me to shelve it.

So you only want posts from people who agree with you? Sorry bud, you started a conversation in an open forum.

Your point is that Guardians can’t escape and retreat.
Our point is that’s not what the Guardian was designed for.

If you want a retreating profession, reroll. You have to play a profession to its strengths. It’s like complaining in the thief forum that they don’t have tanking skills. Really, you have to play to the strengths and not be upset when a profession can’t do everything better than the rest. Guardians have escape skills, just not the best. Learn to use em better, or stand strong and face your enemy.

You tell me we werent designed for escape in a thread that i started about how we lack escape. Lol. I came here to make ppl aware of a lack of something in a class just like thers 100 more posts about our lack of range.

So while all other classes have at least one way of gaining distance fast by design the guardian was designed for cannonfodder?
Tell me then why were we designed with escape skills in beta (JI could be used on friendly targets) and that got removed.
What if its a bug in Judges intervention and ppl just settle for less not knowing better and the class suffers. It sounds like bad design if our 1200 range skill needs a mob to be targeted lol.

Hostility, let me ask you a question:
Do you think it would be fair for the class with the highest survivability in the game to get even more escape tools? And its not like we dont have escape, just dont have as many as other classes.

Thing is, if guardians wants more escape tools we will have to give up something else, since everything the class is balanced on a golden weight: if you want something you need to give something. So what skill(s) do you want to trade for an effective escape tool?

Then you could say that Guardians are underpowered and need a overall buff and then the devs, 80% of all guardians and all the other classes would laugh their kitten off.

Its like the lack of range options debat, yes we have kitteny range because we got over the top utility and survivability. If we gave up some of our utility/survivability the devs would properly gives us range and more escape tool since we then would need it.

Konfuzfanten.6503:

Every class in GW2 has weakness, the guardians main weakness are 1) craptastic range attacks 2) lack of escape tools.

And you don’t see what’s severely wrong with that!?

All classes should have one or the other. If you’re going to have decent range ability then you should have crappy escapes, if you’re melee, which is what guardian really is, then you need a good escape to get out of ranged fire.

One should cancel out the other. A class shouldn’t have a double cancel with theses two particular points.

Survivability is not only related to toughness, HP and healing power, in fact in wvw mobility + steath offers much more survivability than VTH especially when u face multiple numbers.
In this point, guardian is far from highest survivability in wvw. Ele, thief, mesmer, engi have better survivability than guardian.
Norn guardians have much better survivability than other races simply becoz of the snow leopard steath+charge.

Konfuzfanten.6503:

Hostility, let me ask you a question:
Do you think it would be fair for the class with the highest survivability in the game to get even more escape tools? And its not like we dont have escape, just dont have as many as other classes.

Thing is, if guardians wants more escape tools we will have to give up something else, since everything the class is balanced on a golden weight: if you want something you need to give something. So what skill(s) do you want to trade for an effective escape tool?

Then you could say that Guardians are underpowered and need a overall buff and then the devs, 80% of all guardians and all the other classes would laugh their kitten off.

Its like the lack of range options debat, yes we have kitteny range because we got over the top utility and survivability. If we gave up some of our utility/survivability the devs would properly gives us range and more escape tool since we then would need it.

CRrabbit.1284:

Survivability is not only related to toughness, HP and healing power, in fact in wvw mobility + steath offers much more survivability than VTH especially when u face multiple numbers. In this point, guardian is far from highest survivability in wvw. Ele, thief, mesmer, engi have better survivability than guardian.

Yes survivability is not only tgh, vita, healing, stealth or running away. Its also about how long you can keep a zerg one in place and survive: no one does that better then guardians(Tankcat engi can do something similar, but doesnt have the cc to back it up). WvW isnt about 1vsX fighting, its XvsX fighting. The guardian is not design to be a gung ho lone ranger, but a mass control class. And we pay for that ability in terms of range firepower and escape tools.

Lets say we kept a our current defensive abilities and then got a powerful 1200 ft range option or even more escape tools, how would you die? You would be then guy with the most avoidance skills, best armour, medium-high HPs, great heal abilities, multiple blinds, most cond removers, near perma swiftness AND then the ability to pewpew ppl at 1200 ft or instant escape combat? You cant see thats broken? I would call that game breaking.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

And you don’t see what’s severely wrong with that!?

No i dont, because i can see why we dont have those tools, and we are not the only class that sucks at getting away. Ask a necro or warrior about escape tools.

If you say sacrifice the contribution to battle against escape skills, I will agree.
But it’s nothing related to survivability. For survivability itself, it’s no matter 1vX or XvX. Thief or ele already give the best explanation of this word.

Konfuzfanten.6503:

CRrabbit.1284:

Survivability is not only related to toughness, HP and healing power, in fact in wvw mobility + steath offers much more survivability than VTH especially when u face multiple numbers. In this point, guardian is far from highest survivability in wvw. Ele, thief, mesmer, engi have better survivability than guardian.

Yes survivability is not only tgh, vita, healing, stealth or running away. Its also about how long you can keep a zerg one in place and survive: no one does that better then guardians(Tankcat engi can do something similar, but doesnt have the cc to back it up). WvW isnt about 1vsX fighting, its XvsX fighting. The guardian is not design to be a gung ho lone ranger, but a mass control class. And we pay for that ability in terms of range firepower and escape tools.

Lets say we kept a our current defensive abilities and then got a powerful 1200 ft range option or even more escape tools, how would you die? You would be then guy with the most avoidance skills, best armour, medium-high HPs, great heal abilities, multiple blinds, most cond removers, near perma swiftness AND then the ability to pewpew ppl at 1200 ft or instant escape combat? You cant see thats broken? I would call that game breaking.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

And you don’t see what’s severely wrong with that!?

No i dont, because i can see why we dont have those tools, and we are not the only class that sucks at getting away. Ask a necro or warrior about escape tools.

cannons.8109:

Hostility.4961:

I’v also escaped 10 ppl and managed to down hell even 5 ppl at once with my aoe.
JI 1.3k burning + Focus aoe crit 5-6k then mighty blow 7k boom few more swings ppl dead lol prolly all in bezerk but whateva.

How are you getting these numbers? Mind sharing your build or posting a video of this?

Wish i frapsed it as it was hillarious. This was one of my "keep high hp and solid armor but go all out on dmg build tests. Prepare for wall of text as its complicated

To achive those numbers you have to focus on % base dmg increasing skills and items and highest crit dmg items like beserker or valkirie.

Traits —-—-
You see base % dmg increase is 1.5 times greater than crit % dmg. So 10% dmg boost to burning targets is 15% in crit dmg and 10% dmg to targets with condition is 15% more crit dmg. These two traits stack and your targets will almost always burn or have a condition on them from activating your virtue of justice and Judges intervention. They also stack with Do 10% more damage while under the effect of aegis so your initial attack is boosted fer sure and it lasts untill they hit you. Valor gives 25% crit dmg boost. So you build like this to get max dmg boost posible with some decent traits.

Zeal: 10 ( II)
Radiance: 25 (II, IX)
Valor:25 (I, VI)
Virtues: 10 (I)

Eqipment:——-
You can either go full on glass cannon with beserker set but i dont recommend that so go for Valkirie to reach 17300 hp.
Beserkers spineguard with beserker jewel. Accesories are valkirie with valkirie jewel.

Now lets add a rune with base dmg or crit dmg to armor. There are many here to pick from and some beat having jewels on armor instead like the rune of thief wich is 10% base dmg while behind or beside a foe. Or that rune that gives 15% crit dmg while under the effect of Fury wich u can achive on demand from Save your selfs. Rune of Scholar offers the highest dmg boost of a total of 23% boost to crit dmg while health is above 90% and 165 power wich is insane. If you want more vit while keeping crit dmg boost go for Rune of Worm 165vit (19k hp) and 9% crit dmg boost.

Now lets put Sigil of force on valkirie weapons during daytime and Sigil of night wich is 10% dmg during night. Another 7.5% crit daytime dmg boost and 15% night time boost from one weapon. Imagine sword + focus with 2 Sigils of night. Thats 20% base dmg boost and ya they stack. I found that Hammer and Focus give most reliable aoe dmg. What you combo with focus is up to you. Gs + Hammer works wonders too or GS + Something+Focus. All weapons with either Sigil of force or Sigil of night depending what time of the day it is.

Food to fix crit rate:——-
Use Maintenance Oil food and Sigil of perception on a secondary weapon to fix that low crit rate.
With just Maintenance Oil your crit rate is at around 25%. Then you either kill 25 mobs in wvwvw within 2-3 min or go on kill 25 ppl in row ^^ You end up with 38% crit rate with full 25 stack of percision. 58% while furys on. You can improve crit rate if you wish more with a different rune on armor like Pack, Thief and so on.

What about tougness:
You will have 2377 armor with this build. Use signet of Judgment if this low armor bothers you wich is aprox 300 more toughness so 2777 armor wich aint all that bad.
Protection up time is 17 seconds from Virtue of courage + Save your selfs. Use them before you engage enemy. Get the hell out how ever you can when they aint up xD

Utilities: Save your selfs or Stand your ground for stability, signet of judgement and Judges intervention. Renewd focus for more protection uptime and more chance to burn.

Now lets add up all the dmg boost and see what we get in crit dmg boost

50% standard crit boost that all classes get.
Traits: 70% total crit dmg.
Armor: 17% + rune (from aprox 10 to 23%)
Accesories: 36% total crit dmg boost
Food: 15% while moving
TOTAL OF 211% crit dmg

That my friend is how you get highest dmg output with decent hp on a guardian ^^
Insane dmg where in 2 seconds you can down a person.

Konfuzfanten.6503:

CRrabbit.1284:

Survivability is not only related to toughness, HP and healing power, in fact in wvw mobility + steath offers much more survivability than VTH especially when u face multiple numbers. In this point, guardian is far from highest survivability in wvw. Ele, thief, mesmer, engi have better survivability than guardian.

Yes survivability is not only tgh, vita, healing, stealth or running away. Its also about how long you can keep a zerg one in place and survive: no one does that better then guardians(Tankcat engi can do something similar, but doesnt have the cc to back it up). WvW isnt about 1vsX fighting, its XvsX fighting. The guardian is not design to be a gung ho lone ranger, but a mass control class. And we pay for that ability in terms of range firepower and escape tools.

Lets say we kept a our current defensive abilities and then got a powerful 1200 ft range option or even more escape tools, how would you die? You would be then guy with the most avoidance skills, best armour, medium-high HPs, great heal abilities, multiple blinds, most cond removers, near perma swiftness AND then the ability to pewpew ppl at 1200 ft or instant escape combat? You cant see thats broken? I would call that game breaking.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

And you don’t see what’s severely wrong with that!?

No i dont, because i can see why we dont have those tools, and we are not the only class that sucks at getting away. Ask a necro or warrior about escape tools.

……except that they have range. They can choose to go melee or range. Guardians do not have that choice.

You can also input range without making it overpowered easily. Why does have a 1200 range option have to be powerful? It could be the crappiest dps weapon in the game, but it would at least give us the option of not jumping in just to be zerged.

Also, there isn’t a need for a huge escape means. What about the suggestions made already such as making sword #2 non-target dependent? I’d hardly say they would be unbalanced.

Also, “most avoidance skills” and “medium-high hps”? Lol, Whaaaaat!?

We already have the crappiest 1200 range DPS weapon (it’s only good DPS at shorter range, but will actually travel out to 1200 range).

What, you don’t like splattering bubbles across the breadth of a zerg?

Konfuzfanten.6503:

Hostility, let me ask you a question:
Do you think it would be fair for the class with the highest survivability in the game to get even more escape tools? And its not like we dont have escape, just dont have as many as other classes.

Thing is, if guardians wants more escape tools we will have to give up something else, since everything the class is balanced on a golden weight: if you want something you need to give something. So what skill(s) do you want to trade for an effective escape tool?

Then you could say that Guardians are underpowered and need a overall buff and then the devs, 80% of all guardians and all the other classes would laugh their kitten off.

Its like the lack of range options debat, yes we have kitteny range because we got over the top utility and survivability. If we gave up some of our utility/survivability the devs would properly gives us range and more escape tool since we then would need it.

You know why ppl think guardians op tank moving fortress? Its cause we are forced to play that gamestyle while others have a choice! If we go pure dmg we are paper while others are acually playable in full dps due to range and escape. We arent playable as much as them so ppl lock them selfs in this “ima tank” brainlock when in fact thats the only way to be.

I have made my friends toons as survivable as a guardian and more than that while having a bonus of escape tools. On classes that have high dmg skills from the start so when focusing on tanking they end up with more survivability than a guardian and same dmg and utilities as guardian . Also any class can be build for support too if you focus on it while keeping survivability and same dmg guardian does. Wheres the balance now? Read on to get the full picture.

I have made a thief mesmer warrior elementalist and mesmer in ptv gear and/or valkirie gear. Then i used different runes to mimic protection for ex for thief and warrior. Earth rune or Rune of Sanctuary on these is godlike also melandru if u wanna focus against conditions. Add -40% conditon food and 70 vit to these runes. Or boon duration traits for protection uptime. These are all great survival sources to add on to theirs.

Thief has stealth and shortbow for escape. Imagine this mechanic while having 20k hp 3k attack 2700+ armor and their inbuild dmg boosters lol quickness to name one. Steal into a zerg dagger storm swicth to shortbow fire off 2-3 clusterbombs you just did insane aoe dmg now stealth and blink away with shortbow if enemy focuses you.

Warrior has dmg mitigation with utility and shield that reflects projectiles, insanely high hp, can keep elite skill up that gives an insane boost and perma swiftness almost constantly has cc with hammer, has a fast dash of 1200 with gs. They have insanely higher dps than guardian when full dps now imagine when i toned the dmg down to close to guardian dmg while bringing up the tank sides of warrior.

On ele i used Melandru rune for extra toughness since its light armor and it gives 25% less condition and stun duration. Add 33% less duration of Cripple, Chill and Imobilize from trait and food wiht -40% condition duration. We talkin bout 98% less duration of conditions that pin you down! I walked through arrowcart aoe fire totaly immune! Use mistform when you are stunned and you wont be imobilized due to that 98% less.
With D/D setup swith to earth gain protection use Churning Earth aoe to charge then teleport into a crowd Aoe goes off instantly then. Use Ring of Earth then switch to fire use ring of fire for more aoe dmg and condition use Burning lightning to do more dmg and some distance then swith to lightinig Shocking aura then RIde the lightning back to your zerg safely. Mist form first if ur stunned when focused.

Mesmers got aoe stealth and clones Aoe dmg thats disruptive too. Imposiblle to kill with this setup. Can also make Wall of reflection if traited. Mesmer portal brings the entire zerg into the center of enemy zerg lol talk bout dps skill xD

I havent had access to a necro 80 or ranger 80. I can theorycraft from what iv seen necros do with their tripple hp bars and fear and other skills. So i dont find them lacking survivability. They can stay at range so no need to get away from focus.
Rangers too got range duh :P Send pet in with 30k hp pewpew from 1200+ no danger at all. Got plenty of time to retreat when u can acually see if enemy zergs about to move on you from all the dead guardians on the floor kittenolol xD

With practice these classes become deadly, insanely survivable and beyond guardians escape skills. Now compare what you can do on the guardian when playing other classes guardian style ^^

See how we are pushed into support in the back only or die trying forward? I dont like these choices i dont like them one bit lol.

Forgot to say a good combo is: Have Focus out and use 5 then immediately switch to hammer (cast ring of warding if ur fast enough but u dont have to this is only to lock them in place for focus aoe) then Judges Intervention to get into a crowd of 3-5 ppl. This will burn them for like 1500 if i remember right and give u that dmg boost from traits. By this time your Focus 5 will go off and if crit 5k+. You wont lose aegis at first so more dmg Now use Mighty blow wich if crits will do 5k+ depending on who u hittin. Then just do what ever i usualy just whaled at them with hammer or kick em out of the ring with banish haha.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

1) we are the class with the most avoidance skills/passives. If you dont know that then aint playing a guardian.
2) i should have said effective HPs.

At first I was going to post my analysis on this thread, but then I realize OP doesn’t want people to disagree with him. He wants people to look at his views and accept what he says as truth.

If you feel like you suck as a guardian, change classes. But don’t sit there and go “lol u think I don’t know that?” Welcome to the forums. It seems like you’re whining. A lot. The people posting on this thread are giving advice, and all you do is go “I tried everything and it didn’t work.”

Well why the hell is it working for us and not you? Doesn’t seem like a class issue if it works for other people and not you. I don’t need a flashy “escape skill” to survive. I just use my skill to escape. Teleports, Line of Warding, knockbacks, knockdown, immobilized. It’s easy.

I play WvW a lot, with several different builds. I’ve done a pure DPS gank build, didn’t die as often as you make it seem like. Did a pure defensive build, had no problem escaping from 10 people.

Seems like you’re just playing guardian wrong. Don’t post a thread like this if you can’t accept people disagreeing and giving advice.

I will kitten well bring Player skill into this, because I’ve played Guardian “inside and out” for 4 months too, and I’m having 0 problems in World vs World. You act like you know the class better than anyone else, so why is it that you’re having problems and not us? Why do you say you’ve tried everything, and yet you still seem to have so much problems? Don’t sit there and act like “Oh I’m right because I played the class a lot.”

Go make your elementalist. Seems like Guardian wasn’t your strong point after 4 months of playing it. Maybe you’ll have better luck as an Ele.

Konfuzfanten.6503:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

1) we are the class with the most avoidance skills/passives. If you dont know that then aint playing a guardian.
2) i should have said effective HPs.

I’m going to assume you mean avoidance as in damage avoidance, not as in avoiding the enemy which was the point of this thread. If that’s the case, then yeah, I’ll give you those two points. But no amount of hps and damage avoidance is going to help when you get focused, which you do when you go melee, which is a guardians only real means of contributing dps to the party. Unless that is, you play support and watch from the back.

I also noticed you continue to ignore my counter arguments to yours. Does that mean you concede to them :p

Sokina.8041:

At first I was going to post my analysis on this thread, but then I realize OP doesn’t want people to disagree with him. He wants people to look at his views and accept what he says as truth.

If you feel like you suck as a guardian, change classes. But don’t sit there and go “lol u think I don’t know that?” Welcome to the forums. It seems like you’re whining. A lot. The people posting on this thread are giving advice, and all you do is go “I tried everything and it didn’t work.”

Well why the hell is it working for us and not you? Doesn’t seem like a class issue if it works for other people and not you. I don’t need a flashy “escape skill” to survive. I just use my skill to escape. Teleports, Line of Warding, knockbacks, knockdown, immobilized. It’s easy.

I play WvW a lot, with several different builds. I’ve done a pure DPS gank build, didn’t die as often as you make it seem like. Did a pure defensive build, had no problem escaping from 10 people.

Seems like you’re just playing guardian wrong. Don’t post a thread like this if you can’t accept people disagreeing and giving advice.

I will kitten well bring Player skill into this, because I’ve played Guardian “inside and out” for 4 months too, and I’m having 0 problems in World vs World. You act like you know the class better than anyone else, so why is it that you’re having problems and not us? Why do you say you’ve tried everything, and yet you still seem to have so much problems? Don’t sit there and act like “Oh I’m right because I played the class a lot.”

Go make your elementalist. Seems like Guardian wasn’t your strong point after 4 months of playing it. Maybe you’ll have better luck as an Ele.

If u get away by casting a 1 second cast skill called line of warding from 10 ppl those people are pure junk players lol
One dodge over the line or 1200 range immobilize while your standing there casting line of warding or ring and ur dead.

We have single target knobacks knodowns so i dunno how you cc 10 ppl to stop them in tracks. You got 2 teleport skills one on a weapon thats 600 range (lol) needs a target and second one as utility that needs an enemy target or mob. What if theres no enemy or mob to teleport to? So please dont tell me thats effective escape mechanics compared to other classes XD You are still there free to be targeted and anihilated unless people after you are a pack of lvl 10s

You think you have 0 problems cuase u arent aware of the problem im talkin about but i am so i brought it up here.

Fact remains we have no real escape skills and unless anet gives us with extra programming theres nothin to not agree about lol. So i dunno why ppl are trying to not agree with me about something that we obviously lack when u see it in the game design.