Guild Wars 2

Writ of Impedement: Grandmaster trait in Zeal. Symbols cause 1s Chill per pulse.

Replaces Wrathful Spirits.

This would do a lot for the Guardian IMO.

1.) Gives more control options which are relatively lacking if you don’t dedicate to them, and which Symbols (currently) fail to give. Using this on the Staff for example, lets you guard allies and control the flow of battle. You could have the hard counter of Line of Warding along with Symbol of Swiftness against anyone who got passed.

2.) Synergy with Symbolic Exposure (Vulnerability per pulse). Symbolic Exposure can be good as long as enemies stay in the Symbol which is difficult to do in PvP. With Chill, it would make this trait more useful

3.) Makes Symbol of Protection a more useful chain finisher. Currently enemies are only struck by 1 hit from Symbol of Protection if they’re smart, because the longer cast time ususally means they’ll know it’s coming.

4.) Gives more synergy inside of the Greatsword. As it is now, you have the Pull/WW combo, but WW can end up useless against competent enemies due to the movement speed decrease. With a chill on Symbol of Wrath you still have to work to get them hit by the Symbol, but it gives you another option to hit enemies with a burst.

5.) Turns the Staff into a potential kiting option. The Staff is mostly a utility weapon and an AoE spam. But, if the Symbol could chill then you would have the ability to kite more easily, set up Orb of Light attacks, and give yourself time to hit Empower.

6.) Makes the Mace a more threatening combat weapon rather than suited mostly just for ‘bunkering’. At the moment it’s basically impossible to fight a fast moving enemy with the mace. You have no movement impairments, and you have no gap closers (all other melee weapons do). If Symbol of Faith could chill then you would still have to work to get the enemy hit by it, but if you could get close enough then you would be rewarded for skilled usage.

7.) An effective option for more capacity to stay in melee. This is something the Guardian is missing because of a lack of cripples and easy access to swiftness, among fewer gap closing options.

The major point I want to make here is that this trait could equalize the Sword/GS and Mace/Hammer. The Sword is easily able to gap close and has no symbol. The GS has a slightly longer cooldown gap closer and less range than the Sword, and has one long-cooldown symbol. The Hammer doesn’t have a large gap closer, but has control abilities and a symbol off the ‘1’ chain. The Mace has no CC or gap closer but has a long-duration symbol on command. It doesn’t buff what doesn’t need buffing, and gives viable movement impairments to the weapons that need it.

8.) Good synergy with Zealot’s Speed (5 in Zeal). Minor, but still useful for when you get focused in melee at 25% health, and instantly are able to chill your enemy and give you a last second chance. That’s what this trait used to be for as it gave Swiftness but now just retaliation.

9.) Synergy with Honor. Pretty obvious; two potentially offensive symbol traits for duration and size.

10.) Gives more viable options than 30 Valor. Having a very good reason to go 30 Zeal opens up a lot of possibilities for Guardians, and the +300 Power becomes more desirable.

11.) Overall, balanced. Per pulse, 1s Chill. This means you have to hit them with the Symbol, and they have to stay in the symbol. You can’t spam Symbols either, so you’ll have to have skilled usage. It’s also a Grandmaster, so to get this you also have to sacrifice. If you try to go 30 Altrusitic Healing as well, then you’ll only have 10 points left and won’t benefit from Honor traits.

Your thoughts? If you have any related ideas, feel free to post them. Looking for ideas on how to make offensive/control oriented Guardians more competitive, while not becoming overpowered.

Other:

Wrathful Spirits-
Increases spirit weapon damage by 10%
Increase spirit weapon damage by 10% and spirit weapon commands cripple foes for 3s.

Scepter Power-
Scepter damage is increased by 5%.
Scepter damage is increased by 5% and Smite also inflicts 2s Cripple.

Powerful Blades-
Sword and Spear damage is increased by 5%.
Sword and Spear damage is increased by 5%, and Flashing Blade and Brilliance also inflict 2s cripple.

Mace of Justice-
Mace damage is increased by 5%.
Mace damage is increased by 5% and Symbol of Faith has 50% chance to inflict 1s Cripple.

Greatsword Power-
Greatsword damage is increased by 5%.
Greatsword damage is increased by 5% and Whirling Wrath projectiles have a 50% chance to inflict 1s Cripple.

We know what is the class problem, but i dont think this is the solution.
We need something that can be used with all our builds (like a total simbols\consecration modification) and only when this mechanic is created, they can add improvement via traits.

So i agree with you, because we need something to keep the enemy on our range (cripple is the best option), but i dont think that a single grand master trait can help us. This, can be useful, only when guardians will have access to a deepest control mechanic.

Ganzo.5079:

We know what is the class problem, but i dont think this is the solution.
We need something that can be used with all our builds (like a total simbols\consecration modification) and only when this mechanic is created, they can add improvement via traits.

So i agree with you, because we need something to keep the enemy on our range (cripple is the best option), but i dont think that a single grand master trait can help us. This, can be useful, only when guardians will have access to a deepest control mechanic.

You have to sacrifice something. If people go 30 Valor for survival, they can’t have it all. The problem IMO is that where we should have better offensive or control options, we don’t, and so the only viable choice is survival and support (30Valor+20Honor). There needs to be more of a reason to go into the other lines, and there needs to be better Grandmaster traits. At the moment, we could just rename the Guardian the “Altrustic Healer”.

Alarox.4590:

Ganzo.5079:

We know what is the class problem, but i dont think this is the solution.
We need something that can be used with all our builds (like a total simbols\consecration modification) and only when this mechanic is created, they can add improvement via traits.

So i agree with you, because we need something to keep the enemy on our range (cripple is the best option), but i dont think that a single grand master trait can help us. This, can be useful, only when guardians will have access to a deepest control mechanic.

You have to sacrifice something. If people go 30 Valor for survival, they can’t have it all. The problem IMO is that where we should have better offensive or control options, we don’t, and so the only viable choice is survival and support (30Valor+20Honor). There needs to be more of a reason to go into the other lines, and there needs to be better Grandmaster traits. At the moment, we could just rename the Guardian the “Altrustic Healer”.

Sure, but keep the enemy on range is a primary guardian need. when you have satisfied this need, you can improve it, and in this case, your idea will shine.

But this trait alone, is only another patch to our frankenstein class

Ganzo.5079:

Alarox.4590:

Ganzo.5079:

We know what is the class problem, but i dont think this is the solution.
We need something that can be used with all our builds (like a total simbols\consecration modification) and only when this mechanic is created, they can add improvement via traits.

So i agree with you, because we need something to keep the enemy on our range (cripple is the best option), but i dont think that a single grand master trait can help us. This, can be useful, only when guardians will have access to a deepest control mechanic.

You have to sacrifice something. If people go 30 Valor for survival, they can’t have it all. The problem IMO is that where we should have better offensive or control options, we don’t, and so the only viable choice is survival and support (30Valor+20Honor). There needs to be more of a reason to go into the other lines, and there needs to be better Grandmaster traits. At the moment, we could just rename the Guardian the “Altrustic Healer”.

Sure, but keep the enemy on range is a primary guardian need. when you have satisfied this need, you can improve it, and in this case, your idea will shine.

But this trait alone, is only another patch to our frankenstein class

It couldn’t hurt could it? ArenaNet balances very slowly to avoid breaking things, and to rework so many skills and weapons would take time. I agree that more smaller things could be done over time, but I think this Grandmaster would help in the current game, and in the future after those patches.

I think it’s a good idea but I, for one, never go 30 Zeal. Granted, your idea would also make the Zeal line more appealing. The thing is though, other professions don’t need traits, let alone grandmaster ones, to get a wide variety of cripple skills and therefore don’t need to sacrifice anything. I would love a cripple that isn’t an elite or underwater downed skill… Something relatively spammy you know, like what almost every warrior weapon has.

Not dissing your idea, I just think some good snares should be available to all builds, which I guess really translates into, we need more snares on some of our weapons.

Silver.8023:

I just think some good snares should be available to all builds.

Do please remember that the Guardian, as it exists now, already ranks among the highest in sPvP and fractals. The profession, despite its flaws, is still performing equally if not better than other professions. If we can accomplish this without effective hindering abilities, then this is the profession’s flair.

The Guardian can bunker, and the primary way other people can deal with this is to run away. If the Guardian is given the ability to universally trap people within their bunker, then there is really no counter. Warriors can be attritioned down, thieves need to recup for initiative, everyone has to deal with at least some draw backs. Bunker Guardians, need to deal with people running away.

To this end, giving guardians a viable chill mechanic is opening up new avenues already. If this suggestion goes through, it is opening up new avenues for the game as a whole as well. To put things into perspective, Frozen Ground has 40 seconds recharge.

Bottom line is, a chilling bunker is simply not good for the game. Hence why it needs to be deep in zeal, to give guardians an option outside of the (good as is) bunker builds.

The main issue with making Symbols do anything more than what they current do is that ~they effect everyone they hit~… and that’s OP.

A AOE Chill that can effect an unlimited amount of targets… super OP. This would allow a 5 person crew to utterly whipe an entire zerg that get’s caught through a chokepoint. Every single keep/tower take would have a guardian(s) posted right at the door/wall for when it fell, only to have the entire raid whiped out by the other peep’s on the siege or people set up for AOE.

This is not the answer… regardless of how AWESOME it would be. lol

It would have to be something along the lines of “symbols have a 50% (or whatever) chance on pulse to chill”.

Maybe a Chill tied to Virtue of Justice, so it Burns & Chills, and make it a Traited Slot in the first line of Consecrations… cuz honestly, our 1st slotted trait in the Virtue line kind of sucks if you’re not running spirit weapons / consecrations (25% Ret duration is SUPER redundent for guardians).

I would rather see class improvements as a signet or a new Virtue. Not really a point in burying it 30 points deep in an unpopular trait line.

If it’s put in a trait, I think that the vulnerability application from Rad 10 could be more useful as a chill.

Amins.3710:

The main issue with making Symbols do anything more than what they current do is that ~they effect everyone they hit~… and that’s OP.

A AOE Chill that can effect an unlimited amount of targets… super OP. This would allow a 5 person crew to utterly whipe an entire zerg that get’s caught through a chokepoint. Every single keep/tower take would have a guardian(s) posted right at the door/wall for when it fell, only to have the entire raid whiped out by the other peep’s on the siege or people set up for AOE.

This is not the answer… regardless of how AWESOME it would be. lol

It would have to be something along the lines of “symbols have a 50% (or whatever) chance on pulse to chill”.

Maybe a Chill tied to Virtue of Justice, so it Burns & Chills, and make it a Traited Slot in the first line of Consecrations… cuz honestly, our 1st slotted trait in the Virtue line kind of sucks if you’re not running spirit weapons / consecrations (25% Ret duration is SUPER redundent for guardians).

Symbols hitting more than 5 sounds like a bug more than anything. Since Anet has specifically say the 5 target limit applies to ALL aoe.

If it’s going to be a chance to proc kind of deal, I’d rather it proc on symbol crits, which force people to go even more glass cannon to compensate for the effect.

Otherwise, internal cooldown is an alternative.

Heinel.6548:

Bottom line is, a chilling bunker is simply not good for the game. Hence why it needs to be deep in zeal, to give guardians an option outside of the (good as is) bunker builds.

Exactly.

Amins.3710:

The main issue with making Symbols do anything more than what they current do is that ~they effect everyone they hit~… and that’s OP.

A AOE Chill that can effect an unlimited amount of targets… super OP. This would allow a 5 person crew to utterly whipe an entire zerg that get’s caught through a chokepoint. Every single keep/tower take would have a guardian(s) posted right at the door/wall for when it fell, only to have the entire raid whiped out by the other peep’s on the siege or people set up for AOE.

This is not the answer… regardless of how AWESOME it would be. lol

It would have to be something along the lines of “symbols have a 50% (or whatever) chance on pulse to chill”.

Maybe a Chill tied to Virtue of Justice, so it Burns & Chills, and make it a Traited Slot in the first line of Consecrations… cuz honestly, our 1st slotted trait in the Virtue line kind of sucks if you’re not running spirit weapons / consecrations (25% Ret duration is SUPER redundent for guardians).

Symbols hit only 5 targets at once. If 100 people were standing in a symbol with this trait, then for 1s 5 would be chilled. The next second, only 5 would be chilled. The next second, only 5 would be chilled.

Actually, my guild uses coordinated Line of Wardings and Ring of Wardings to block zergs and those affect unlimited targets. For those, you don’t even need traits, and this suggestion is of 30 Zeal.

Obtena.7952:

I would rather see class improvements as a signet or a new Virtue. Not really a point in burying it 30 points deep in an unpopular trait line.

It it’s put in a trait, I think that the vulnerability application from Rad 10 could be more useful as a chill.

The reason it’s unpopular is because there’s no point in going deep into it…

It’s like saying we shouldn’t build a bridge here because nobody tries to cross this river. That’s because there’s no bridge yet.

Heinel.6548:

If it’s going to be a chance to proc kind of deal, I’d rather it proc on symbol crits, which force people to go even more glass cannon to compensate for the effect.

Otherwise, internal cooldown is an alternative.

I think on-crit would be fine if it was deemed too good.

I understand that we can be effective bunker characters but Guardians, while they excel at it, aren’t the only professions that can do it. I imagine a bunker Warrior with regen banners or shout healing would do ok and they get good cripples alongside some decent ranged damage. I’ve seen some insanely tough bunker Elementalists, they also have a good variety of snares available on top of being able to heal quite well.

I think the expected counter argument to this of something like, ‘Yeah but we have lots of heals, we shouldn’t be able to cripple things!’ doesn’t really hold water because there already exists a profession mechanic to offset our superior heals and that’s the low base health pool for a melee oriented class. I just want reliable snares!

I recently went on my Warrior and Elementalist after playing Guardian for so long and I felt overpowered because of the amount of control alongside damage I could put out.

In any case, I think adding passive snares to symbols would be a little overpowered unless they were very short durations.

Edit: Although, the more I think about it, separating it from bunker builds by using 30 Zeal isn’t a bad idea after all.

Silver.8023:

In any case, I think adding passive snares to symbols would be a little overpowered unless they were very short durations.

Edit: Although, the more I think about it, separating it from bunker builds by using 30 Zeal isn’t a bad idea after all.

I’m only suggesting a 1s duration on the chills.

I agree that giving more available forms of being able to maintain melee range combat is good for all Guardians. What I’m saying is that this level of snaring plus the current bunker builds would be overpowered, as Writ of Impediment is Grandmaster level snaring.

I’m not suggestiing this as the end-all solution for Guardian problems, just something that works and isn’t overpowered and creates build diversity.

I was having this discussion with a few guardians I play with a couple of weeks ago. We talked about the GM Trait being the snare, but thats too deep in the tree. If anything it should be a 15-20 trait, or put into a weapon or two. Another could be a 20 second CD and 5 second duration on Glacial Heart.
We’ve got low mobility (especially when compared to warrior/thief/DD ele/mesmer) and have no cripple? /confused

I guess the thing that rubs me the wrong way so much is that pretty much every other profession (I don’t have time to check right now) has easy access to weapon skill based cripples and chill while we don’t.

5 people at a time, but used in a choke point, it would hit a lot more than 5 popel running through it.

Dynnen.6405:

I was having this discussion with a few guardians I play with a couple of weeks ago. We talked about the GM Trait being the snare, but thats too deep in the tree. If anything it should be a 15-20 trait, or put into a weapon or two. Another could be a 20 second CD and 5 second duration on Glacial Heart.
We’ve got low mobility (especially when compared to warrior/thief/DD ele/mesmer) and have no cripple? /confused

The problem with making it low is that every Guardian will have it.

For example, if this was 20 Zeal then every Guardian would run 20/x/30/x/x, and most Guardians would run 20/0/30/20/0.

Plus, I think a trait this effective is more balanced at 30 Zeal.

However, there could definitely be other traits added or weapon skills with snares.

Amins.3710:

5 people at a time, but used in a choke point, it would hit a lot more than 5 popel running through it.

Only 5 people will be chilled at a time, as the Symbol would pulse once per second and inflict 1 chill per pulse.

Or I could use Line of Warding and block 500 people and completely prevent movement with 0 traits needed.

At the moment you have skills that are even better than what I’m suggesting as they give multiple second AoE chills and cripples.

Alarox.4590:

Dynnen.6405:

I was having this discussion with a few guardians I play with a couple of weeks ago. We talked about the GM Trait being the snare, but thats too deep in the tree. If anything it should be a 15-20 trait, or put into a weapon or two. Another could be a 20 second CD and 5 second duration on Glacial Heart.
We’ve got low mobility (especially when compared to warrior/thief/DD ele/mesmer) and have no cripple? /confused

The problem with making it low is that every Guardian will have it.

For example, if this was 20 Zeal then every Guardian would run 20/x/30/x/x, and most Guardians would run 20/0/30/20/0.

Plus, I think a trait this effective is more balanced at 30 Zeal.

However, there could definitely be other traits added or weapon skills with snares.

Amins.3710:

5 people at a time, but used in a choke point, it would hit a lot more than 5 popel running through it.

Only 5 people will be chilled at a time, as the Symbol would pulse once per second and inflict 1 chill per pulse.

Or I could use Line of Warding and block 500 people and completely prevent movement with 0 traits needed.

At the moment you have skills that are even better than what I’m suggesting as they give multiple second AoE chills and cripples.

I’ve found it nearly absolutely necessary to run at least 20 into virtues for the resolve trait that removes 3 conditions from u and allies. Losing that would force me to change what I’d be doing in our small group combat. 20 is plenty deep into a tree to lose quite a bit, but still giving it to other specs that don’t go full into power.
However thats why I like the idea of making Glacial Heart 20 second CD w/5 second duration. Or putting some chill on a couple of weapons.

EDIT: We also talked about the symbol pulses. It wasn’t a bad idea giving more utility towards increasing the range/duration to maximize area control (since that is a guard’s bread and butter). However doing this would nearly require you moving around other symbol traits or moving the suggested new trait low in the tree. Since it would be a bit pointless to have it on a small, low duration symbol…unless it was the staff, then it wouldn’t be that bad.

Make it a straight cripple instead of a chill and make it the 25 point trait instead of the current one. Nobody uses symbols for damage as most are too hard to keep people on. (other than maybe hammer but even the GS is the only one worth the actual damage.) adding a 1sec cripple on them would work fine and do what they need to.

Amins.3710:

5 people at a time, but used in a choke point, it would hit a lot more than 5 popel running through it.

The same thing already exists on the ele with frozen ground, on a much wider area. I have yet to find a choke so wide my frozen ground doesn’t cover it from wall to wall. It also pulses 2 second chills, not 1 second. Chill fields and wards had been standard practice for choking people on corridors since day one, it’s not novel.

Alarox.4590:

The reason it’s unpopular is because there’s no point in going deep into it…

It’s like saying we shouldn’t build a bridge here because nobody tries to cross this river. That’s because there’s no bridge yet.

We shouldn’t build a bridge here, simply because the whole purpose of making this bridge is an excuse to put a pot of gold at the end of it. If the idea here is to make Zeal more appealing, it’s going to have to be alot more than one trait at 30 to do that. If the idea is to give some stronger close ranged CC, then I think something more widely accessible is a better option for that, since all Guardians would benefit from something like it.

I like the idea of expanding the close range CC capability vs continually crying about lack of long range effectiveness (I’m betting Guardians are designed that way on purpose, so no reason to cry about it). I simply think the scope of the idea presented here is trying to hard to do many things.

I speculate that a build with 30 in Zeal would hinder my ability to have a sustained encounter in PVP, so the idea that I would chill someone in close range to me doesn’t seem all that appealing anymore. If I’m looking at a boon being put into Zeal 30, I would prefer swiftness or stability, so I can choose if I’m engaging OR running away. A chill or root if in a trait should find it’s way into a more defensive stance IMO.

Bump – saw discussion of a trait like this in another thread about Smite being a symbol; we have a thread here already.

I agree with a lot of what’s being said, but I’d like to make a few suggestions.

1. Maybe trigger the condition when the Symbol appears and/or when an enemy enters a Symbol. This makes the use of Symbols more tactical, while making the trait a bit weaker (it can be souped up if needed for damage and this goes over better with the community than nerfing something that turns out too powerful).
2. Put it at 20 Zeal. While I agree that Zeal needs all the help it can get, Grandmaster traits should pretty gamechanging and not just things the profession kinda needs.
3. Maybe make it a cripple instead of a chill. While I think chill fits the “magic knight” thing the Guardian has going on, cripple makes it a bit weaker (which is important for point 2).
   [quote=1276535;Alarox.4590:]Bump – saw discussion of a trait like this in another thread about Smite being a symbol; we have a thread here already.[/quote]
   Good bump.

The only problem I really have with this suggestion is that it would make Guardians have to spend 20-30 trait points to get access to something every other profession has with zero trait investment. I agree that Zeal is in need of some fixing up just as I believe Guardian’s need a snare of some sort but why not fix them both independently of each other? We already have enough “must have” traits to build for and I feel we’d have to spread points even thinner.

I’m not against this idea, don’t get me wrong and I like that people are trying to improve Guardian but I think a better solution would be to just give us weapon skill cripples and fix Zeal up on its own, since this is all suggestions anyway at this point.

Feel free to disagree! Just giving my thoughts in on the matter!

After messing around with some new zeal builds I have come to realize that honestly, zeal is not THAT horrible. The issue with zeal is that you only really have a 1-2 viable options to pick per trait level, compared to the others were 4-5 of the starter ones are all decent and actually might be picked even at 20 trait points. If this trait was put it I would say either make it replace the 15, 20, or 25 point traits. At those points you invest enough in Zeal to make it actually effect your build.(instead of say 10 were most builds have 10 to throw around anyways).

Also I support the chill effect on cast of symbols (maybe 2 seconds) because of how powerful chill really is. This will help support the symbol as people will have a bit of a tougher time getting off them and give us more of the “area denial” Anet has said we are supposed to have. The only Issue I really can see with this MIGHT be Hammer with the constant symbol dropping, but to be honest Hammer is a CC focused weapon anyways, and most classes CC weapons are VERY CC heavy. (stares at maces for warriors)

I still don’t think people who say guardian needs snares with no drawbacks at all are giving the guardian class enough credits.

The only other build that can keep persistent chill is the D/D ele, and even for them it’s not 100% up time. Have you ever seen how fast a D/D ele drops when they cannot maintain kiting range? An Honor/Valor variant guardian just plain does not drop that fast. It’s actually very difficult to counter bunker guardians when matters come to a toe to toe fight.

Most people have gotten so used to the survival builds that they think it is the baseline to build guardians upon. Guardians do have ways to lock down their targets, very strong ones, at that, but making a signet build means you miss out on the builds that make you nigh unkillable. You can choose to kill, or be unkillable, but not both. This is part of the guardian’s design.

Heinel.6548:

I still don’t think people who say guardian needs snares with no drawbacks at all are giving the guardian class enough credits.

The only other build that can keep persistent chill is the D/D ele, and even for them it’s not 100% up time. Have you ever seen how fast a D/D ele drops when they cannot maintain kiting range? An Honor/Valor variant guardian just plain does not drop that fast. It’s actually very difficult to counter bunker guardians when matters come to a toe to toe fight.

Most people have gotten so used to the survival builds that they think it is the baseline to build guardians upon. Guardians do have ways to lock down their targets, very strong ones, at that, but making a signet build means you miss out on the builds that make you nigh unkillable. You can choose to kill, or be unkillable, but not both. This is part of the guardian’s design.

This, exactly.

You can’t, and shouldn’t have everything. Most Guardians run 30 Valor with either Monk’s Focus or Altruistic Healing, and already have a huge amount of survival and support. The problem with the Guardian is that you gain almost nothing in NOT going 30 Valor with a tanky/support build.

Most people seem fine with that; this suggestion helps only those who aren’t.

I agree that Guardians overall need more ways of staying in melee and controlling their enemies, but this suggestion is not the ultimate solution to that. It’s simply another option that adds a number of new and viable builds where there weren’t any before, and caters to a playstyle other than tank/support.

Nobody was really saying we needed 100% chill uptime. If you’re referring to what I recently said, I was more referring to cripple anyway and even then I don’t think we should have 100% cripple uptime either (I think chill on a Guardian is a little out of place to be honest). Cripple with similar cooldowns and duration as the Warrior would be nice because, as ArenaNet has stated, Guardians are supposed to be more effective in melee range and yet we have no reliable way of keeping people there without using up 1-2 utility slots (other professions can choose not to do this) or weapons that we may not necessarily want to use and even then due to the lack of cripple, as soon as they run out, if you don’t do enough damage to kill them in the short amount of time you had them, foes can simply run away or roll through those long cooldown wards that are now wasted…

I would say that the tradeoff for being a survival based build is already present, you don’t do much burst damage, you generally do sustained damage. We can’t really perform sustained damage unless we keep them with us. Once again, I’m not asking for perma-cripple where once we’ve got them, we win. I’m asking for some good duration, good cooldown cripples that when used in a timely manner could very well win you the day if you play well. You know, like most other cripples.

Silver.8023:

Nobody was really saying we needed 100% chill uptime. If you’re referring to what I recently said, I was more referring to cripple anyway and even then I don’t think we should have 100% cripple uptime either (I think chill on a Guardian is a little out of place to be honest). Cripple with similar cooldowns and duration as the Warrior would be nice because, as ArenaNet has stated, Guardians are supposed to be more effective in melee range and yet we have no reliable way of keeping people there without using up 1-2 utility slots (other professions can choose not to do this) or weapons that we may not necessarily want to use and even then due to the lack of cripple, as soon as they run out, if you don’t do enough damage to kill them in the short amount of time you had them, foes can simply run away or roll through those long cooldown wards that are now wasted…

I would say that the tradeoff for being a survival based build is already present, you don’t do much burst damage, you generally do sustained damage. We can’t really perform sustained damage unless we keep them with us. Once again, I’m not asking for perma-cripple where once we’ve got them, we win. I’m asking for some good duration, good cooldown cripples that when used in a timely manner could very well win you the day if you play well. You know, like most other cripples.

I am claiming something much more generalizable than 100% chill time. If that example is confusing just skip that part and read the rest of the post at face value.

The trade off for not having burst damage is having higher sustained damage. Guardian auto attacks are already one of the best, if not the best if you are only looking at a DPS meter. That can’t be used as an excuse to get cripple.

Asking for cripple is also a bad thing. How many warriors do you see using cripple? Let’s not even talk about the glass cannons. The balanced ones also use bolas. They use bulls charge. The guardian knockdown and immobilize signets are arguably better versions of those skills with less visually confirmable animations and no chance of missing the target. Even D/D eles, yes they use chill, but when they’re on the offensive, you’re more likely to be caught in a immobilize with that earth grasp skill or knockdown by their stomp, than you get chilled by their pbaoe ice blast. If they have a cripple skill in their bars a lot of the times they aren’t even being utilized. How many people know churning earth actually cripples the targets while channeling? I could even add thieves into this. Any thief with a dagger in offhand has a conveniently spammable, ranged, multi target cripple. But what do you see them actually doing? CnD after CnD. When was the last time you got hit by dancing dagger? A thief has far better things to do than wasting initiative on crippling targets needlessly. In other words, crippling, just doesn’t make that much of a difference in general.

Heinel.6548:

I am claiming something much more generalizable than 100% chill time. If that example is confusing just skip that part and read the rest of the post at face value.

The trade off for not having burst damage is having higher sustained damage. Guardian auto attacks are already one of the best, if not the best if you are only looking at a DPS meter. That can’t be used as an excuse to get cripple.

Asking for cripple is also a bad thing. How many warriors do you see using cripple? Let’s not even talk about the glass cannons. The balanced ones also use bolas. They use bulls charge. The guardian knockdown and immobilize signets are arguably better versions of those skills with less visually confirmable animations and no chance of missing the target. Even D/D eles, yes they use chill, but when they’re on the offensive, you’re more likely to be caught in a immobilize with that earth grasp skill, more than you get chilled by their pbaoe ice blast. If they have a cripple skill in their bars a lot of the times they aren’t even being used. Dead weight skills, those are.

Every warrior weapon have a movement skill with relatively low Cd and a control effect(mace have no movement, but is all about control), and with cripple they have a 5 point trait that immobilize for 2 sec.

The only guardians weapons that is just perfect, is the hammer because with a 15 sec chain, the ring of warding and Mighty blow, have a good mobility and control across the battlefield. We miss the rest, so asking some more control, is not so OP.

How many do I see using cripple? Short answer: all of them. Long answer: aaaaaaaall of them, simply because they all have it available on all but three weapons, two of which have immobilise and the other has a stun, a block and a daze. I fail to see how a condition like cripple is useless to a Warrior.
I can understand why they wouldn’t need it for a burst damage Warrior and I assure you, if you were running a tough, more support oriented Warrior relying on sustained damage, you better believe those cripples would be invaluable but the point is, the option of cripple is still available to them whether they want to use it or not. Guardians don’t quite have the luxury of easy snares, which, really, is the reason this thread exists in the first place. I’m just throwing suggestions around like everyone else here in an effort to make Guardian the best it can be.

Heinel.6548:

If they have a cripple skill in their bars a lot of the times they aren’t even being utilized. How many people know churning earth actually cripples the targets while channeling? I could even add thieves into this. Any thief with a dagger in offhand has a conveniently spammable, ranged, multi target cripple. But what do you see them actually doing? CnD after CnD. When was the last time you got hit by dancing dagger? A thief has far better things to do than wasting initiative on crippling targets needlessly. In other words, crippling, just doesn’t make that much of a difference in general.

MAke difference for US lol

We arent bulletman (rogue with heart seeker, and many..many… MANY teleports) and we dont have the high mobility of an elementalist. every seconds we can keep the enemy on our attack range, is just unvaluable! chill is to powerfull to be spammed, so the only choice is cripple, or a condition made just for guardian use only.

Heinel.6548:

I am claiming something much more generalizable than 100% chill time. If that example is confusing just skip that part and read the rest of the post at face value.

The trade off for not having burst damage is having higher sustained damage. Guardian auto attacks are already one of the best, if not the best if you are only looking at a DPS meter. That can’t be used as an excuse to get cripple.

Asking for cripple is also a bad thing. How many warriors do you see using cripple? Let’s not even talk about the glass cannons. The balanced ones also use bolas. They use bulls charge. The guardian knockdown and immobilize signets are arguably better versions of those skills with less visually confirmable animations and no chance of missing the target. Even D/D eles, yes they use chill, but when they’re on the offensive, you’re more likely to be caught in a immobilize with that earth grasp skill, more than you get chilled by their pbaoe ice blast. If they have a cripple skill in their bars a lot of the times they aren’t even being utilized. How many people know churning earth actually cripples the targets while channeling?

See the issue in comparing skills like that is you are not comparing them fully. The immobilize signet is useless for a passive. 90 condition damage is not even an added 25 damage to our burn, which is our only condition and can not stack. Yes the immobilize is great but the passive is fairly useless. Compare it to throw bolas which actually has a longer duration, a shorter cooldown (even with signet traited it is longer) does damage, and is a projectile finisher.

The power signet on the other hand is somewhat decent, gives you 90 power and a 2 second knockdown, but comparing it to bulls charge you really need to look at it all. Bulls charge has once again a shorter CD (this time traiting bane signet will lower the cd below charge) Does damage, just like bane signet, knocks down for the same time, but is a leap finisher, and most importantly MOVES YOU to your target. The only thing that the signet has over it is double the range, which honestly doesnt matter that much as most people you wont be able to cover the distance that fast to make it worth it in the first place.

Also as far as warriors not using cripple, you realize that almost every weapon they have has a cripple on it right? mainhand axe, sword, greatsword, rifle, Hammer has an cone cripple. Also mace offhand has a knockdown, Shield has a stun, and arrow has an Immobilize. Warriors have a TON of ways to keep their targets near them with just weapon skills, adding in utilities just makes sure nobody gets away, were as we have barely any CC on our weapons outside hammer, of which one of those most people can just walk out of. The only other CCs on weapons are binding blade, which only works at 600 range and if an enemy walks out of that before you pull it loses the dot and the pull, and the immobilize on scepter which is actually very good but on a broken weapon. I really don’t see how asking for a 2 second chill on a single skill that isn’t even on every weapon is a bad thing.

Silver.8023:

simply because they all have it available on all but three weapons,

It’s on their weapons as a dead weight skill that has never seen use. If I’m ever caught by a warrior it wouldn’t be because of a cripple, it’d be because i’m out of cooldowns to counter immobilize and knockdowns.

Ganzo.5079:

We arent blah blah blah.

Guardians has just as many offensive teleports as a thief. Maybe on somewhat longer cooldowns, but we also don’t die to a sneeze like they do, which means some of their mobility has to be spent on defense, rather than all offense. The only thing eles have that puts them at an advantage over guardians is RTL, nothing else.

Bakitten291:

See the issue in comparing skills like that is you are not comparing them fully.

You argue that the signets are underpowered. So then propose changes to them. Not the weapons.

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

We arent blah blah blah.

Guardians has just as many teleports as a thief. Maybe on somewhat longer cooldowns, but we also don’t die to a sneeze like they do.

What? a thief have teleports with low CD, stealth, good ranged options and high burst damage. ok we can survive, but all class can just Kite us every time. Even if we can teleport(or jump) have no control effect (and blind when someone is running away, is USELESS)

The only thing eles have that puts them at an advantage over guardians is RTL, nothing else.

They can kite us just like all the other classes. When thing go on the worse direction, they RTL or mistform away, And the really High swiftness uptime help them a lot, so man, you are wrong.

Heinel.6548:

Silver.8023:

simply because they all have it available on all but three weapons,

It’s on their weapons as a dead weight skill that has never seen use. If I’m ever caught by a warrior it wouldn’t be because of a cripple, it’d be because i’m out of cooldowns to counter immobilize and knockdowns.

Ganzo.5079:

We arent blah blah blah.

Guardians has just as many offensive teleports as a thief. Maybe on somewhat longer cooldowns, but we also don’t die to a sneeze like they do, which means some of their mobility has to be spent on defense, rather than all offense. The only thing eles have that puts them at an advantage over guardians is RTL, nothing else.

Bakitten291:

See the issue in comparing skills like that is you are not comparing them fully.

You argue that the signets are underpowered. So then propose changes to them. Not the weapons.

To silver’s point: yes because it would make sense for them to also pick up charge and bolas and COMPLETELY overlook the skill on their weapons… It makes sense now.

To Ganzo’s point: We have 2, Flashing blade, and Judges intervention. Thieves have: 9
(http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shadow_step_%28mechanic%29) 2=9 correct?

To my point: Symbols are a basis of our class, we have 6 traits that effect them, 3 major in honor, 3 minor in zeal. Signets have 3 Major traits in only the radiance line. With so many options to customize symbols I think it would make more sense to change one of the 6 out instead of one of the only 3 that alter signets. Also, what exactly is supposed to be changed on signets? giving us the generic speed increasing signet? No thanks, I would much rather have a trait applied to symbols that increases our build diversity than every guardian and their mother running the same one signet.

Ganzo.5079:

I got Kited!

I guess the “how to deal with mesmer” thread come at a very good time. Start reading it.

Bakitten291:

To my point: Symbols are a basis of our class, we have 6 traits that effect them, 3 major in honor, 3 minor in zeal. Signets have 3 Major traits in only the radiance line. With so many options to customize symbols I think it would make more sense to change one of the 6 out instead of one of the only 3 that alter signets. Also, what exactly is supposed to be changed on signets? giving us the generic speed increasing signet? No thanks, I would much rather have a trait applied to symbols that increases our build diversity than every guardian and their mother running the same one signet.

If you think the symbol hindering mechanic should require traits, then you are in agreement with me. I’m the original person who proposed the concept (at least in the context of this thread).

lol you have nothing else to say, can you only reply with sarcasm?

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

I got Kited!

I guess the “how to deal with mesmer” thread come at a very good time. Start reading it.

Bakitten291:

To my point: Symbols are a basis of our class, we have 6 traits that effect them, 3 major in honor, 3 minor in zeal. Signets have 3 Major traits in only the radiance line. With so many options to customize symbols I think it would make more sense to change one of the 6 out instead of one of the only 3 that alter signets. Also, what exactly is supposed to be changed on signets? giving us the generic speed increasing signet? No thanks, I would much rather have a trait applied to symbols that increases our build diversity than every guardian and their mother running the same one signet.

If you think the symbol hindering mechanic should require traits, then you are in agreement with me. I’m the original person who proposed the concept (at least in the context of this thread).

Ive said that in multiple threads on the guardian forums, make it either a 15/20/25 point trait in zeal and have it give a 2 second chill when first placing the symbol, or a .5 second one on pulse. I personally feel 1 second each pulse might be a bit much since symbols already do damage and supply buffs, and do also have the other augments such as healing, applying vulnerability (which is honestly the one i would like to see switched out for)

Bakitten291:

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

I got Kited!

I guess the “how to deal with mesmer” thread come at a very good time. Start reading it.

Bakitten291:

To my point: Symbols are a basis of our class, we have 6 traits that effect them, 3 major in honor, 3 minor in zeal. Signets have 3 Major traits in only the radiance line. With so many options to customize symbols I think it would make more sense to change one of the 6 out instead of one of the only 3 that alter signets. Also, what exactly is supposed to be changed on signets? giving us the generic speed increasing signet? No thanks, I would much rather have a trait applied to symbols that increases our build diversity than every guardian and their mother running the same one signet.

If you think the symbol hindering mechanic should require traits, then you are in agreement with me. I’m the original person who proposed the concept (at least in the context of this thread).

Ive said that in multiple threads on the guardian forums, make it either a 15/20/25 point trait in zeal and have it give a 2 second chill when first placing the symbol, or a .5 second one on pulse. I personally feel 1 second each pulse might be a bit much since symbols already do damage and supply buffs, and do also have the other augments such as healing, applying vulnerability (which is honestly the one i would like to see switched out for)

Chill is just too overpowered. what we need is just something reduce other classes speed.
-50% speed of cripple is good, but even only a 33% slow effect on simbol can be a really good aid.

Ganzo.5079:

lol you have nothing else to say, can you only reply with sarcasm?

It is not sarcasm. The advice being given there is sound, and if they can catch a mesmer with that, they will most likely also catch thieves, and definitely will catch an ele. I don’t think it’s worth repeating the same information here.

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

lol you have nothing else to say, can you only reply with sarcasm?

It is not sarcasm. The advice being given there is sound, and if they can catch a mesmer with that, they will most likely also catch thieves, and definitely will catch an ele. I don’t think it’s worth repeating the same information here.

Stack swiftness is not so effective because all classes have simply more speed then us with a good ranged options.

Chains are good but you have to use them when the enemy is near(<2 sec of travel) or if you have a teleport\jump out of CD. but they dont last long so you will land maybe one or 2 hit before the enemy start to run away again.

Teleport in general, are only half good, yes you reach the enemy but if he is running, he simply continue to run, without some second of slow.

the only real good combo for now is JI+ROW, this is the only combo i have ALWAYS on my skill set for WvW because its the only that really give to us some melee extra time.

So, if you want a discussion, then discuss. But put some real point, instead of wrong\partial\incorrect things or just sarcastic quotes.

Ganzo.5079:

Heinel.6548:

Ganzo.5079:

lol you have nothing else to say, can you only reply with sarcasm?

It is not sarcasm. The advice being given there is sound, and if they can catch a mesmer with that, they will most likely also catch thieves, and definitely will catch an ele. I don’t think it’s worth repeating the same information here.

Stack swiftness is not so effective because all classes have simply more speed then us with a good ranged options.

Chains are good but you have to use them when the enemy is near(<2 sec of travel) or if you have a teleport\jump out of CD. but they dont last long so you will land maybe one or 2 hit before the enemy start to run away again.

Teleport in general, are only half good, yes you reach the enemy but if he is running, he simply continue to run, without some second of slow.

the only real good combo for now is JI+ROW, this is the only combo i have ALWAYS on my skill set for WvW because its the only that really give to us some melee extra time.

So, if you want a discussion, then discuss. But put some real point, instead of wrong\partial\incorrect things or just sarcastic quotes.

If you think their solutions are ineffective why don’t you ask them to clarify?

I don’t think you’re here to discuss at all. You’re trolling the thread.

point one: i have tryed different solution on over 800 hours of guardian play.

point two: go to read that thread, because i bet you havent read it, you are just tell me to read it because of its title.

point three: im trolling nothing and no one, and if you are accusing me of trolling, just because i dont agree with your incosistent argument, well its a problem of yours.

Counter arguments are not equivalent to trolling. I’m not sure why everyone seems to think otherwise…

I’m still against the idea of having a specific build simply to slow people down, especially when most other professions have cripples all over their weapon skills and can use them regardless. If Warrior’s aren’t using cripples on you, then I say they’re the ones doing it wrong.
As it stands, it seems only a hammer build with Judge’s Intervention with one or two optional signets, Signet of Wrath being pretty lame, just to keep people within melee range right? What if my build doesn’t accommodate hammer? We’re gimped then aren’t we? Greatsword? The pull is nice but they’ll just walk away from it. Yes, there are ways available for us to keep people close but for anyone who isn’t running Knight’s or Berserker’s good luck killing them under 2-4 seconds before their durations run out. On top of that, if they have any swiftness, we’re stuffed. If they really want to get away, they can.

I would hardly agree that cripple skills on weapons are dead weights. What’s the first thing most people do when they’re chilled or crippled? They dodge to get away faster if they can. You’ve just made them blow a dodge or two and then you can simply walk up to them and continue to do melee damage to them. I don’t get it, what is the benefit of using only an immobilise and/or knockdown when you could use both in conjunction with a free cripple for even more face to face number exchange?

Silver.8023:

I don’t get it, what is the benefit of using only an immobilise and/or knockdown when you could use both in conjunction with a free cripple for even more face to face number exchange?

It is because of power creep.

Guardians are not considered underpowered at the moment. A straight up adding in efficacy means pushing them to overpowered level. The other professions will then have to be buffed as well to accommodate this change. This introduce the never ending cycle of power increases.

That is why buffs have always been few and far between.

And I’ll also say this preemptively:

If you think the guardian is underpowered because of a lack of snare, please make a new thread pushing your argument forward. This thread is made under the view that guardian is balanced as is and the only change sought is more option on par with existing viable builds, not a buff.

So Warriors, Rangers, Thieves, Elementalists, Mesmers and Necromancers being able to throw cripple around from weapon skills like it’s candy while still having access to around the same amount of knockdowns/immobilises and easier swiftness is balanced but giving it to Guardians makes them OP? I thought you said cripples are dead weights… by that logic, giving us cripples would be a nerf! :O

The thread is about Guardian snares, I’m talking about an alternative solution but it’s still a Guardian snare discussion. I’ll stay right here and continue to discuss the value of Guardian snare options thank you very much.

Also, I think you’re just making stuff up to try and stop me supporting cripple options. You said, " the only change sought is more option on par with existing viable builds" whereas the OP said, “It’s simply another option that adds a number of new and viable builds where there weren’t any before.”

Which is really what I’m suggesting as well.

Heinel.6548:

Silver.8023:

simply because they all have it available on all but three weapons,

It’s on their weapons as a dead weight skill that has never seen use. If I’m ever caught by a warrior it wouldn’t be because of a cripple, it’d be because i’m out of cooldowns to counter immobilize and knockdowns.

Ganzo.5079:

We arent blah blah blah.

Guardians has just as many offensive teleports as a thief. Maybe on somewhat longer cooldowns, but we also don’t die to a sneeze like they do, which means some of their mobility has to be spent on defense, rather than all offense. The only thing eles have that puts them at an advantage over guardians is RTL, nothing else.

Bakitten291:

See the issue in comparing skills like that is you are not comparing them fully.

You argue that the signets are underpowered. So then propose changes to them. Not the weapons.

Dude… What are you talking about!? I have played a warrior for a very long time and I have played a warrior extensively in TPVP as well. The weapon cripples are invaluable saying they are dead weight is actually seriously kitten me off because you obviously have no clue how strong that condition is. EVERY warrior uses there cripples, in fact I don’t know one warrior (or any other melee profession with cripples) who says kitten , whenever I choose a target they have no chance to get away from me, these cripples are worthless, I wish I could be kited to death. In fact, leg specialist, the 10 point trait in the warrior vitality trait line is one of the best tools in the game for making sure people do not leave your melee range, it requires Heavy use of their cripples and provides amazing results for a 10 point trait and the complete melee warrior.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about saying cripples are useless, and that no warrior ever uses them. Please stop, you are making yourself look very very foolish right now. Not only do warriors have them on almost every weapon set, but even the melee weapon cripples are ranged (axe throw, blade trail on GS) making them even more efficient and amazing.

Guardians can be kited extremely easily which for a melee based class is embarrassing as hell being kited while you swing in the air being cripple and chilled and not being able to slow your target down (unless you use hammer or scepter, and even their if they dodge your immobilize or it misses you are in serious trouble). It’s actually pathetically hilarious that a soldier class that has poor ranged options has no cripples or movement inhibitors on any of their weapons to keep targets in melee range (unless you use utilities.)

Chill/cripple/swiftness itself added does not make the Guardian OP. In fact, it balances them as currently there are few options for an offensive melee Guardian.

However, in conjunction with the current meta bunker builds, a trait like this would surely be overpowered. But, I think a few more inherent cripples/chills/swiftness on utility or weapon skills would not make bunker Guardians overpowered.

(Although, most weapon skills are balanced without cripple/chill, so it would have to be very carefully done, and probably best left to utility skills and traits).

TL;DR: More chills/cripples/swiftness is fine to give all Guardians, as long as its balanced. This trait specifically, would be OP with the current bunker builds, which is why it needs to be a Grandmaster.

Silver.8023:

You said, " the only change sought is more option on par with existing viable builds" whereas the OP said, “It’s simply another option that adds a number of new and viable builds where there weren’t any before.”

Which is really what I’m suggesting as well.

They’re not mutually exclusive ideas though. I think we all want the same thing: more options for offensive/control oriented Guardians as currently we only have competitive bunker/support.

Let me try to redirect the conversation. Suggested ideas so far are:

1.) My idea for a Zeal Grandmaster involving symbols inflicting 1s chill
2.) Improved Signets
3.) Chill/Cripple on weapon skills and utility skills
5.) Swiftness on more weapon skills and utility skills

Let’s elaborate on more of these and make this a productive conversation.

Alarox.4590:

Chill/cripple/swiftness itself added does not make the Guardian OP. In fact, it balances them as currently there are few options for an offensive melee Guardian.

However, in conjunction with the current meta bunker builds, a trait like this would surely be overpowered. But, I think a few more inherent cripples/chills/swiftness on utility or weapon skills would not make bunker Guardians overpowered.

(Although, most weapon skills are balanced without cripple/chill, so it would have to be very carefully done, and probably best left to utility skills and traits).

TL;DR: More chills/cripples/swiftness is fine to give all Guardians, as long as its balanced. This trait specifically, would be OP with the current bunker builds, which is why it needs to be a Grandmaster.

Thats why i think that Simbols\consecrations must be touched i bit to provide some sort of snaring.
And im pointing Simbols and consecrations just to distinguish guardian from the other main melee classes.

Warriors and thief have enough tools to reach\snare the enemy, their combat stile is very mobile.

Guardian arent mobile, so they have to keep the enemy on the same area for much time as possible, and effect like simbols and consecration can help for this(if tweaked).
But i have to say that i dont care if they dont use simbols for snare, but i know that our class need them for every weapon (except hammer… maybe)