Guild Wars 2

When are people going to realize that warriors are not the only good dps class.

Painbow.6059:

When are people going to realize that warriors are not the only good dps class.

In heavy armor?

Zanshin.5379:

Painbow.6059:

When are people going to realize that warriors are not the only good dps class.

In heavy armor?

No all around, people all have the mentality that you must play warrior over guardian if you want to have good dps, but it’s also for other classes

Group building in gw2 101:

Step one. Find 5 people with massive Dps.
Step two. You need reflects, dodges, stability, fire fields, vulnerability, conditions removal and plenty of aegis and blinds. Sacrifice the least Dps possible to pick these up. Pro tip, guards and eles do this pretty well. Engies have sweet vuln too.
Step 3, kill stuff.

Alternative strategy :
Pick 5 random in pvt, cleric etc gear. Clear content because it’s still possible to do so, just slower.

Fact is the above mentioned mitigation techniques are so effective that adding cleric gear on top doesn’t add as much as you would hope.

Focusing on damage reduction and healing in a world where you can avoid damage completely is madness.

akamon.2769:

if

I bolded the important part. If the party doesn’t need the extra support provided by clerics, then by all means swap gear or build.

Here’s news for you – I don’t run my guardian everywhere I go, or use it to fill all roles, because other classes can do it better.

Thieve’s are best at blinds and stealth, engies (imo) at vuln stacking and AoE on greater than 3 targets, warriors are the best class for group damage buffs, mesmers and guards are the best classes for reflects (and AoE stability among other things). Guardians also happen to be the best healing/sustain support in the game along with their other uses.

If I’m running an AC P1 or P3 and we’ve got some lowbies in the group (possibly using weapons which aren’t well suited for it, or who aren’t familiar with the dungeon), I’ll often swap to my ele just for conjure frostbow on burrows. We’ve probably all done that before, right? Same thing.

Of course all of the classes have strengths in different parts of the game, but for the most part this is what PVE boils down to.

If the party doesn’t need anything in particular, I’ll just bring what I feel like bringing unless the party objects. Lot’s of the time though I don’t have that luxury, and so I bring what the party seems to lack for the given situation.

If I feel the party needs some extra support via boons/heals, I slap on my clerics gear and trait to keep the party up in the situations that require it. I can’t in any way imagine how you’d find this objectionable or unreasonable.

See the boons see more important than the heals tho

Its ironic, defensive builds were quite good in gw1 pve. Now its just the opposite.

Aza.2105:

Its ironic, defensive builds were quite good in gw1 pve. Now its just the opposite.

Its not that they aren’t good you could prolly do every dungeon in this game with groups of nothing but full tanks for each class… It will be somewhat irrelevant though because of how bad healing power scales in the game and how well dps scales.

jportell.2197:

Aza.2105:

Its ironic, defensive builds were quite good in gw1 pve. Now its just the opposite.

Its not that they aren’t good you could prolly do every dungeon in this game with groups of nothing but full tanks for each class… It will be somewhat irrelevant though because of how bad healing power scales in the game and how well dps scales.

Absolutely.

However, I’m convinced that Anet feels healing power and defensive stats like toughness are in a good place.

Aza.2105:

jportell.2197:

Aza.2105:

Its ironic, defensive builds were quite good in gw1 pve. Now its just the opposite.

Its not that they aren’t good you could prolly do every dungeon in this game with groups of nothing but full tanks for each class… It will be somewhat irrelevant though because of how bad healing power scales in the game and how well dps scales.

Absolutely.

However, I’m convinced that Anet feels healing power and defensive stats like toughness are in a good place.

From a PvP stand point absolutely. However in pve as long as mobs have the ability to one shot you regardless of your toughness you’re just better off doing more dps

jportell.2197:

Aza.2105:

jportell.2197:

Aza.2105:

Its ironic, defensive builds were quite good in gw1 pve. Now its just the opposite.

Its not that they aren’t good you could prolly do every dungeon in this game with groups of nothing but full tanks for each class… It will be somewhat irrelevant though because of how bad healing power scales in the game and how well dps scales.

Absolutely.

However, I’m convinced that Anet feels healing power and defensive stats like toughness are in a good place.

From a PvP stand point absolutely. However in pve as long as mobs have the ability to one shot you regardless of your toughness you’re just better off doing more dps

Yep.

In that regard I felt pve in gw1 had more depth, because the mobs used the same skills players had and not one shot mechanics. So it gave encounters more variety.

Look at pve fights in wow for example. Ones which don’t have enrage timers.

Do you see groups of 25 tanks and healers? No, because being over cautious and bringing more heals than necessary wastes everybody’s time.

fadeaway.2807:

Look at pve fights in wow for example. Ones which don’t have enrage timers.

Do you see groups of 25 tanks and healers? No, because being over cautious and bringing more heals than necessary wastes everybody’s time.

In 25 man raids there would be at least 2-4 tanks, maybe 4 healers. One healer and sometimes tank per group, the rest were dps. In dungeon content, 1 tank and healer. I haven’t really played since 07, so things might of changed.

Why don’t I ever run into all you amazing perfect run guys and gals when I’m using the lfg =( ?

If you run full zerk and the correct build I will add you to my list for when I have a man down. We tour every dungeon each night.

I ran with a pretty static guild group for quite a while. A lot of them started with mixed or defensive stats. A lot of the content was pretty challenging. Then most moved closer to zerker and polished builds with DPS in mind. A lot of content then was much less challenging and a lot more fun. Some of the hardest dungeons I’ve run was with a ‘tank’ warrior and a ‘healer’ guard, terribly slow and a number of wipes.

I’d never kick anyone for running a build they like, Zerker just seems a lot more fun and easier IMHO.

Blood~

I run zerker but I am always quick to admit I’m actually not very good at the game. I fumble dodges a lot and haven’t even been to all dungeons yet. I lack the focus to play nonstop, chat too much in game, and my keyboard often makes me auto run off cliffs. But that’s why I run with a friendly social Guild. Nobody cares what build I run, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t aim for an efficient build and play style which helps me improve and won’t waste other people’s time.

Zerker is a great way to improve though. Tank gear just tells you “oh well, you took a hit. Go stand at range while you heal up” compared to zerker learn when to dodge or die approach.

jportell.2197:

Yaki.9563:

Painbow.6059:

I’m sorry but it’s the fact that clerics think they are helping people when they are actually gimping everyone else in the groups survival and taking forever to do anything

You’re not only sorry, you’re wrong. Cleric’s increases everyone’s survival. It just doesn’t matter because survival is not an issue in the first place so all that matters is how fast your run is.

And please don’t bother with the “shorter fights mean less errors” argument. If your group is making so many errors that a 20% longer fight means they’ll make one that wipes the group, there are bigger issues than someone in cleric’s gear.

The fact of the matter is that whenever you have someone in full clerics gear trying to help “group” survivability is a problem with the build that accompanies it. Most guards that run clerics gear in dungeons also run 30 into valor which is by far doing nothing at all to help group survivability. Sure maybe if they run battle presence AND absolute resolution they are getting somewhere, however this is usually not the case… at all. Zerker dps guardians not only never touch valor they are bringing the same boons but more blinds more vulnerability and have better damage modifiers….

Also having a Cleric’s person can screw with mobs aggro tables when you run a group of full zerkers the bosses rotate who they are aggroed on. IF the boss aggros on the person doing the highest DPS then it is one more person they completely ignore there by limiting who they aggor on. If the boss aggros on toughness then that cleric person usually winds up dead on the floor.

So all in all go zerk or knights/zerk combo. Cleric’s is useless in dungeons. i can understand adjusting your BUILD, but your gear should never be cleric guard in dungeons.

In the first paragraph you say the problem is the build.

Then in the last you say go ahead and change your build, but it’s the gear….

Blinds/vuln spam only works on trash. You don’t blind or add any more vuln than any other build when fighting a boss because your virtues never reset. You can easily go cleric’s gear and have a supportive build while still being able to apply just as much blind/vuln as a full DPS spec. It only takes 15 in Radiance.

Also, what cleric’s build uses 30 in valor? You basically cherry picked some horrible build. I can do the same thing: DPS Guardians go 30/0/30/10/0 therefore berserker guards suck. 30 Honor and 20 Virtues is a minimum for cleric’s builds so that leaves at most 20 for Valor. Huh, just enough to put 15 into Radiance for the blind/vuln spam if I wanted it.

Finnway.2183:

Aza.2105:

Can’t cleric gear users gain access to blinds, vulnerability and damage modifiers too?

In order to trait to get those damage modifiers you’re gimping your build. Even though the build is suboptimal in PvE the trait synergy still makes sense. link to build

Those points in valor are in no way the core of the build. They are fluff. If blind/vuln on virtue use is so great, they can be easily ditched for that instead. However, people realize that blind/vuln on virtue use is only good on melee trash mobs so they don’t bother.

PvE people are weird

Maladon.5760:

PvE people are weird

Care to elaborate?

Yaki, a cleric with a spec like 20.0.0.30.20 won’t even hit half the damage a zerker 10.30.0.5.25 will bring. The zerker will bring a lot more than half of the survivability the cleric brings though, simply through reflects, aegis, virtues, conditions removal and blinds. The healing really is the smallest part of our group support.

My bad, I forgot to add that I play 90% WvW and 10% PvE (FOTMs only).
I love Zerker people in WvW. Free bags.

fadeaway.2807:

I run zerker but I am always quick to admit I’m actually not very good at the game. I fumble dodges a lot and haven’t even been to all dungeons yet. I lack the focus to play nonstop, chat too much in game, and my keyboard often makes me auto run off cliffs. But that’s why I run with a friendly social Guild. Nobody cares what build I run, but that doesn’t mean I shouldn’t aim for an efficient build and play style which helps me improve and won’t waste other people’s time.

Then by your own rules as being the most efficient, you should stay out of grouping then because you’re wasting your other party members’ time by not being good.

fadeaway.2807:

Zerker is a great way to improve though. Tank gear just tells you “oh well, you took a hit. Go stand at range while you heal up” compared to zerker learn when to dodge or die approach.

I’d say it’s more “Oh well, you took a hit. Stay in the face of the boss while you heal up” compared to the typical zerker who dies at one hit.**

**this quite often being my PUG experience with both tankers and zerkers.

I run a heal build with roughly 70% of the dps of a Zerk build. Best of both worlds. Just takes some min-maxing. No one has ever looked at me and said “I can tell you aren’t berserker.”

Then again, I don’t think I’ve ever played with someone who cared enough to bring it up in the first place. The only place I’ve ever been told I’m wrong is the forums.

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Then by your own rules as being the most efficient, you should stay out of grouping then because you’re wasting your other party members’ time by not being good.

Everybody deserves to play the game and have fun no matter what skill level.
The difference being some people like to cover up their badness with tank gear, others like to bring the most they can bring, and learn from mistakes.

foofad.5162:

I run a heal build with roughly 70% of the dps of a Zerk build. Best of both worlds. Just takes some min-maxing. No one has ever looked at me and said “I can tell you aren’t berserker.”

Then again, I don’t think I’ve ever played with someone who cared enough to bring it up in the first place. The only place I’ve ever been told I’m wrong is the forums.

You are correct. This only exists on the forums.

You could probably conjure up some kind of viable healing build but it’s the fact that people use AH and ignore damage multipliers as well. In good parties anything but zerker is not needed. But in pugs you could probably mix some zerker with some healing with battle presence ect and be useful (picking up damage multipliers aka 10% while endurance not full). But some guards just stick to GS with cleric gear and think they are useful using AH

PvE is easy, everything’s scripted, pressing dodge button is not hard.
Go to sPvP or WvW.

Painbow.6059:

You could probably conjure up some kind of viable healing build but it’s the fact that people use AH and ignore damage multipliers as well. In good parties anything but zerker is not needed. But in pugs you could probably mix some zerker with some healing with battle presence ect and be useful (picking up damage multipliers aka 10% while endurance not full). But some guards just stick to GS with cleric gear and think they are useful using AH

What skills/traits are most players using primarily for healing?

Nick.6972:

PvE is easy, everything’s scripted, pressing dodge button is not hard.
Go to sPvP or WvW.

Thanks for this amazingly appropriate and on-topic response. This really adds to the discussion and I’m sure that if I ever come across you in any PvE encounter I will be amazed by your level of skill.

Aza.2105:

Painbow.6059:

You could probably conjure up some kind of viable healing build but it’s the fact that people use AH and ignore damage multipliers as well. In good parties anything but zerker is not needed. But in pugs you could probably mix some zerker with some healing with battle presence ect and be useful (picking up damage multipliers aka 10% while endurance not full). But some guards just stick to GS with cleric gear and think they are useful using AH

What skills/traits are most players using primarily for healing?

I don’t know about most people but I run 10/0/0/30/30 Hammer/Mace+x. SYG, PF, and third utility is a wildcard for whatever situation.

dutchiez.7502:

Nick.6972:

PvE is easy, everything’s scripted, pressing dodge button is not hard.
Go to sPvP or WvW.

Thanks for this amazingly appropriate and on-topic response. This really adds to the discussion and I’m sure that if I ever come across you in any PvE encounter I will be amazed by your level of skill.

Based on the fact that you’re supposed to run around in full zerker gear dps’ing everything down as fast as possible I don’t see how anyone can claim there’s very much skill involved.

Maladon.5760:

dutchiez.7502:

Nick.6972:

PvE is easy, everything’s scripted, pressing dodge button is not hard.
Go to sPvP or WvW.

Thanks for this amazingly appropriate and on-topic response. This really adds to the discussion and I’m sure that if I ever come across you in any PvE encounter I will be amazed by your level of skill.

Based on the fact that you’re supposed to run around in full zerker gear dps’ing everything down as fast as possible I don’t see how anyone can claim there’s very much skill involved.

Based on the fact that in WvW you just run around in a giant zerg and spam 1 to win I don’t see how there’s any skill involved there either.

dutchiez.7502:

Maladon.5760:

dutchiez.7502:

Nick.6972:

PvE is easy, everything’s scripted, pressing dodge button is not hard.
Go to sPvP or WvW.

Thanks for this amazingly appropriate and on-topic response. This really adds to the discussion and I’m sure that if I ever come across you in any PvE encounter I will be amazed by your level of skill.

Based on the fact that you’re supposed to run around in full zerker gear dps’ing everything down as fast as possible I don’t see how anyone can claim there’s very much skill involved.

Based on the fact that in WvW you just run around in a giant zerg and spam 1 to win I don’t see how there’s any skill involved there either.

I don’t know, stacking on the commander seems to be really hard for some people.

foofad.5162:

dutchiez.7502:

Maladon.5760:

dutchiez.7502:

Nick.6972:

PvE is easy, everything’s scripted, pressing dodge button is not hard.
Go to sPvP or WvW.

Thanks for this amazingly appropriate and on-topic response. This really adds to the discussion and I’m sure that if I ever come across you in any PvE encounter I will be amazed by your level of skill.

Based on the fact that you’re supposed to run around in full zerker gear dps’ing everything down as fast as possible I don’t see how anyone can claim there’s very much skill involved.

Based on the fact that in WvW you just run around in a giant zerg and spam 1 to win I don’t see how there’s any skill involved there either.

I don’t know, stacking on the commander seems to be really hard for some people.

Just like running zerker and using reflects/dodging is hard for others.

I didn’t mean to hurt anyone’s ego, I’m just reading the thread like everyone else. If there’s no consideration that needs to be taken defensively for pve then you simply can’t claim it takes very much skill to participate. This thread is actual proof of that concept.

Maladon.5760:

I didn’t mean to hurt anyone’s ego, I’m just reading the thread like everyone else. If there’s no consideration that needs to be taken defensively for pve then you simply can’t claim it takes very much skill to participate. This thread is actual proof of that concept.

There are different skill levels in every aspect of the game. You have the average pvt/knights team in PvE and the zerging masses in WvW. But you also have the full dps-specced soloers in PvE and the small roaming groups in WvW. I wasn’t going to defend PvE because tbh I don’t think there’s that much skill involved in any aspect of this game. But to say that all you do in PvE is roll zerk and roflstomp and that’s why there’s no skill involved in any of it is just wrong.

fadeaway.2807:

Lonewolf Kai.3682:

Then by your own rules as being the most efficient, you should stay out of grouping then because you’re wasting your other party members’ time by not being good.

Everybody deserves to play the game and have fun no matter what skill level.
The difference being some people like to cover up their badness with tank gear, others like to bring the most they can bring, and learn from mistakes.

You’re being contradictory now.

foofad.5162:

Aza.2105:

Painbow.6059:

You could probably conjure up some kind of viable healing build but it’s the fact that people use AH and ignore damage multipliers as well. In good parties anything but zerker is not needed. But in pugs you could probably mix some zerker with some healing with battle presence ect and be useful (picking up damage multipliers aka 10% while endurance not full). But some guards just stick to GS with cleric gear and think they are useful using AH

What skills/traits are most players using primarily for healing?

I don’t know about most people but I run 10/0/0/30/30 Hammer/Mace+x. SYG, PF, and third utility is a wildcard for whatever situation.

I was curious because when examples of cleric guardians are used they seem to be very polarized. Honor maxed out, staff, signet of mercy, writ of the merciful, basically taking every last healing skill/trait and nothing else.

But when you look at zerker users, they don’t run 30/30/0/x/x. I’m saying the zerker builds that others advocate aren’t taking every last trait that has to do with damage. Its a mix of offense and defense. So why are cleric build so polarized? Could a cleric build be designed similar to its zerker counter part? Were as there is a intelligent picking of traits and skills while allowing the user to take advantage of healing power.

Why do these threads always devolve into the clerics saying “oh yeah, well in wvw blah blah blah fwee lewt bags!” Look at the op, he is clearly referencing pve.

Guess what, many people play pve AND pvp. Some of us just choose to gear and trait our characters optimally for all game modes. The fact that you guys don’t know what is optimal for pve, when it’s very easy to figure out, leads me to believe you aren’t very competitive in pvp either- where the most viable builds aren’t as obvious

Maladon.5760:

I didn’t mean to hurt anyone’s ego, I’m just reading the thread like everyone else. If there’s no consideration that needs to be taken defensively for pve then you simply can’t claim it takes very much skill to participate. This thread is actual proof of that concept.

What I see proven here is that some people don’t have the skill to recognize animations and dodge attacks, so they compensate with tanky gear and mad heals. In pvp, reading animations is very important, same as pve. Only in pve things are easier because you know what you’re up against and you know exactly what skills a boss will use. So why not choose the optimal build for this setting?

laharl.8435:

Only in pve things are easier because you know what you’re up against and you know exactly what skills a boss will use. So why not choose the optimal build for this setting?

I haven’t made a case for either type of build. I was just pointing out that it’s really disingenuous to claim an activity requires any measurable skill when you’re just speccing for max damage and blowing kitten up.

Maladon.5760:

laharl.8435:

Only in pve things are easier because you know what you’re up against and you know exactly what skills a boss will use. So why not choose the optimal build for this setting?

I haven’t made a case for either type of build. I was just pointing out that it’s really disingenuous to claim an activity requires any measurable skill when you’re just speccing for max damage and blowing kitten up.

That only happens because we know what to do already. When everyone first started playing this game some bosses that are now considered the easiest ones were really hard (like Alpha in CoE). We know when to use reflects, when to use blinds, when to use blocks and that’s why it’s all so easy to do: because we know. So to say that you only spec for max damage and blow everything up is a bit of an understatement since there is much more going on beneath the surface.

Maladon.5760:

laharl.8435:

Only in pve things are easier because you know what you’re up against and you know exactly what skills a boss will use. So why not choose the optimal build for this setting?

I haven’t made a case for either type of build. I was just pointing out that it’s really disingenuous to claim an activity requires any measurable skill when you’re just speccing for max damage and blowing kitten up.

You should try some of the harder content then. There is always an amount of skill that will make things much easier for you and your party. It does take skill to complete content as fast and efficiently as some people are doing, it’s naive to not recognize that. There are also some of us that like to provide challenges for ourselves such as duoing and soloing.

Aza.2105:

30/30/0/x/x. I’m saying the zerker builds that others advocate aren’t taking every last trait that has to do with damage.

30/30/0/x/x is less dps than 10/30/0/x/25. The build I posted would have anywhere from 20% to 30% damage modifiers as opposed to that crappy 30/30 build which would only bring more power and 5% more damage to GS without those sweet virtue modifiers….. That’s a terribad build.

so i can tell only one thing. The other day I was playing with some random ppl lvl 26 or 29 fractal I dont remember exactly now. We were doing that lava fractal with grawls. We couldnt kill the boss at the end, so i swithed to Soldier/Cleric guardian I have. We made it on the first try, it took like 5-10 mins. Nobody was complaining about my cleric gear.

Cat Has Ducks.1982:

Aza.2105:

30/30/0/x/x. I’m saying the zerker builds that others advocate aren’t taking every last trait that has to do with damage.

30/30/0/x/x is less dps than 10/30/0/x/25. The build I posted would have anywhere from 20% to 30% damage modifiers as opposed to that crappy 30/30 build which would only bring more power and 5% more damage to GS without those sweet virtue modifiers….. That’s a terribad build.

I’m not sure what you are getting at.

My point is zerkers do try to do maximum damage. We only have 5 points that go into defense generally, which is into honor for Perma vigor. Everything else goes into trait lines for DPS. The only non dps trait is master of consecrations generally, but even that adds dps with our wall of reflect….

So, then my point is, why shouldn’t we polarize Cleric guards to being the max healer they can be. (Since healing is useless in general, might as well go full retar….)

vlad.3467:

so i can tell only one thing. The other day I was playing with some random ppl lvl 26 or 29 fractal I dont remember exactly now. We were doing that lava fractal with grawls. We couldnt kill the boss at the end, so i swithed to Soldier/Cleric guardian I have. We made it on the first try, it took like 5-10 mins. Nobody was complaining about my cleric gear.

Guardian is op on the Legendary Grawl because of projectile reflects/blocks. It’s probably the fact that you brought in a guardian that helped, any guard build has reflects.

laharl.8435:

vlad.3467:

so i can tell only one thing. The other day I was playing with some random ppl lvl 26 or 29 fractal I dont remember exactly now. We were doing that lava fractal with grawls. We couldnt kill the boss at the end, so i swithed to Soldier/Cleric guardian I have. We made it on the first try, it took like 5-10 mins. Nobody was complaining about my cleric gear.

Guardian is op on the Legendary Grawl because of projectile reflects/blocks. It’s probably the fact that you brought in a guardian that helped, any guard build has reflects.

Indeed, Guard is beast mode there. My group often brings two for our runs, and having the WoR’s up whenever we need them is Pro. Doing it without reflects is a pain.