Guild Wars 2

I don’t want to disrespect the OP but he shouldn’t blame armor or another class on his error. There is definitely a way to avoid all of that. What the OP fails to mention is:

Steal has a CD
Cloak and Dagger uses initiative
Backstab is only a threat when you get hit from behind while they are stealth.

Steal has a 45sec cd? So that is the approximate time needed for the theif to perform that kind of setup again. Meanwhile guardian has: Shield of Wrath, Protectors strike, Retaliation, Symbols, Renewed Focus, Dodge, Ring of Warding, Banish, Blind from flashing blade and skill #4 with focus and virtue of justice, Shelter, Virtue of Courage.

I’m not saying that if the thief does this you do that problem solved. If that was the case then the game wouldn’t take much thought. Rather I’m saying guardian does have tools at their disposal to deal with that. Which is why they are known for their durability in pvp.

I feel that many players tend to think about how old style mmos work, i.e soak up damage with mitigation. Its true to a extent in gw2 but toughness, armor and vitality should be considered more of a buffer that is used when you make a error. Dodge is the real mitigation in game, along with block and blind.

Aza.2105:

I feel that many players tend to think about how old style mmos work, i.e soak up damage with mitigation. Its true to a extent in gw2 but toughness, armor and vitality should be considered more of a buffer that is used when you make a error. Dodge is the real mitigation in game, along with block and blind.

That is the case in sPvP, but not for WvW.

Toughness, Vitality, and Armor generally works fine on every class, but Thiefs and Warriors basically ignore your armor with certain abilities.

My Thief → Stonetouch Venom → Shadowstep → Haste → Cloak n Dagger → Backstab → Heartseeker = you’re dead.

ComeAndSee.1356:

Aza.2105:

I feel that many players tend to think about how old style mmos work, i.e soak up damage with mitigation. Its true to a extent in gw2 but toughness, armor and vitality should be considered more of a buffer that is used when you make a error. Dodge is the real mitigation in game, along with block and blind.

That is the case in sPvP, but not for WvW.

Toughness, Vitality, and Armor generally works fine on every class, but Thiefs and Warriors basically ignore your armor with certain abilities.

My Thief -> Stonetouch Venom -> Shadowstep -> Haste -> Cloak n Dagger -> Backstab -> Heartseeker = you’re dead.

I keep seeing these claims in the forums. I have yet to be killed by this combo. Typically the thief tries, then fails, then runs away.

ComeAndSee.1356:

Aza.2105:

I feel that many players tend to think about how old style mmos work, i.e soak up damage with mitigation. Its true to a extent in gw2 but toughness, armor and vitality should be considered more of a buffer that is used when you make a error. Dodge is the real mitigation in game, along with block and blind.

That is the case in sPvP, but not for WvW.

Toughness, Vitality, and Armor generally works fine on every class, but Thiefs and Warriors basically ignore your armor with certain abilities.

My Thief -> Stonetouch Venom -> Shadowstep -> Haste -> Cloak n Dagger -> Backstab -> Heartseeker = you’re dead.

None of those abilities ignore armor. Condition damage, however, does.

magicthighs.5372:

ComeAndSee.1356:

Aza.2105:

I feel that many players tend to think about how old style mmos work, i.e soak up damage with mitigation. Its true to a extent in gw2 but toughness, armor and vitality should be considered more of a buffer that is used when you make a error. Dodge is the real mitigation in game, along with block and blind.

That is the case in sPvP, but not for WvW.

Toughness, Vitality, and Armor generally works fine on every class, but Thiefs and Warriors basically ignore your armor with certain abilities.

My Thief -> Stonetouch Venom -> Shadowstep -> Haste -> Cloak n Dagger -> Backstab -> Heartseeker = you’re dead.

None of those abilities ignore armor. Condition damage, however, does.

While this is true, the sentiment is that because crit damage can be increased so much it causes the abilities to feel as though they bypass armor on crits because they hit so tremendously hard. I understand the sentiment, but I disagree with the notion that it’s “too much damage.”

Keep in mind, that in order for it to be mathematically possible to be struck by a Backstab crit in the 9000-10k range against a 3200 armor target, the thief needs to have a lot of factors on his side. Might, vuln, Executioner, Eagle runes/full Divinity, Bloodlust stacks, and so on and so on. Every once in a while all of those factors are bound to combine in such a way as to cause you to get hit for what seems like a disproportionate amount of damage. Especially against a zerg.

I’d be really interested in seeing screenshots of people getting hit for that much damage 1v1. It shouldn’t be possible. What is possible is the much more reasonable 5-6k backstab.

I know someone’s going to get incensed at my use of the word “reasonable” with respect to a single hit dealing 6k damage, but what I mean by reasonable here is that it’s completely within the realm of possibility for a single person, given the amount of damage that Backstab does, to actually hit for that much.

I fought a burst style thief the other day and due to me dueling a thief friend of mine often I can read what most thief’s are going to do half the time which helps a lot. I can see how some things are considered just plain crazy and OP but there will always be things like that and it’s something you need to evolve to deal with.

I killed the burst thief and he then went to whine at me that I hit him for too much damage. My reply to that is if you’re going to go for burst damage expect to receive the same back cause you will have next to no defence.

Aberrant.6749:

Learn to react to an invis enemy within 1.5s… seems fair and balanced.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbhdsF4oEI8

^in sPvP for that added balance.

(not my vid)

Thanks for this.

foofad.5162:

magicthighs.5372:

ComeAndSee.1356:

Aza.2105:

I feel that many players tend to think about how old style mmos work, i.e soak up damage with mitigation. Its true to a extent in gw2 but toughness, armor and vitality should be considered more of a buffer that is used when you make a error. Dodge is the real mitigation in game, along with block and blind.

That is the case in sPvP, but not for WvW.

Toughness, Vitality, and Armor generally works fine on every class, but Thiefs and Warriors basically ignore your armor with certain abilities.

My Thief -> Stonetouch Venom -> Shadowstep -> Haste -> Cloak n Dagger -> Backstab -> Heartseeker = you’re dead.

None of those abilities ignore armor. Condition damage, however, does.

While this is true, the sentiment is that because crit damage can be increased so much it causes the abilities to feel as though they bypass armor on crits because they hit so tremendously hard. I understand the sentiment, but I disagree with the notion that it’s “too much damage.”

Keep in mind, that in order for it to be mathematically possible to be struck by a Backstab crit in the 9000-10k range against a 3200 armor target, the thief needs to have a lot of factors on his side. Might, vuln, Executioner, Eagle runes/full Divinity, Bloodlust stacks, and so on and so on. Every once in a while all of those factors are bound to combine in such a way as to cause you to get hit for what seems like a disproportionate amount of damage. Especially against a zerg.

I’d be really interested in seeing screenshots of people getting hit for that much damage 1v1. It shouldn’t be possible. What is possible is the much more reasonable 5-6k backstab.

I know someone’s going to get incensed at my use of the word “reasonable” with respect to a single hit dealing 6k damage, but what I mean by reasonable here is that it’s completely within the realm of possibility for a single person, given the amount of damage that Backstab does, to actually hit for that much.

In other MMOs there are usually soft and hard caps in place to make sure that stacking one stat doesn’t get out of hand.

Backstab can hit so hard because there’s a lot of damage multipliers. You can use Power Signet for 15% damage, trait for 5% more dagger damage, and 5% more damage to targets from behind. Then I have a trait that does 20% more damage to targets below 50% HP.

Also, I forgot to mention is +damage % bonuses for speccing deep into certain trees. If I got 30 points into Critical strikes I do +10% more damage when initiative is over 6. Cloak n Dagger also puts 3 vuln’s on the target.

So if stars align (not really, just be below 50% hp) I deal 58% bonus damage with my Backstab on top of my critical damage bonus, power, might stacks, and vulnerabilities on my target. That’s why you see huge number Backstabs and Heartseekers. Toughness can’t scale against it.

ComeAndSee.1356:

In other MMOs there are usually soft and hard caps in place to make sure that stacking one stat doesn’t get out of hand.

Something I’ve long been wishing for to happen in GW2. I feel it would add a lot more depth to trait and armor builds when most of the people go berserker’s with 100+ percent critical damage at this point, for example.

If I die in WvW by a class traited solely to kill other classes in less then 3 seconds, while I’m unprepared or distracted then I see no problem with it. I’ve had it happen maybe 2-3 times since I started playing WvW, and I’ve kill many more thieves then the other way around.

Altho its mostly visible from thiefs and some warriors just how much power+crit dmg outruns tougness and vit in wvwvw one should think about other players who stack power+crit dmg too.

Stuff like full beserker ele with staff aoe that you randomly get hit by while your upfront in melee mode, mesmers in shatter build and so on. All classes pretty much can bypass or push your toughness and vit and protection to its limits.

One must ask him/herself: can beeing in melee get any harder when even armor seems useless? xD

Hostility.4961:

Altho its mostly visible from thiefs and some warriors just how much power+crit dmg outruns tougness and vit in wvwvw one should think about other players who stack power+crit dmg too.

Stuff like full beserker ele with staff aoe that you randomly get hit by while your upfront in melee mode,

Heh, this actually happened the other day to me. Was defending SMC when I suddenly got hit with an 8k Fireball. I’m guessing that was probably a ‘ounce in a blue moon’ shot, but it shocked me to say the least.

Aberrant.6749:

Learn to react to an invis enemy within 1.5s… seems fair and balanced.

(video snip)

^in sPvP for that added balance.

(not my vid)

A 1.5 sec reaction time is horrifically slow. Almost unnatural.

Kami.7369:

Aberrant.6749:

Learn to react to an invis enemy within 1.5s… seems fair and balanced.

(video snip)

^in sPvP for that added balance.

(not my vid)

A 1.5 sec reaction time is horrifically slow. Almost unnatural.

The dude has 3.1k armor in sPvP and dies in 1.5s… In WvW you can easily kill people in less than that… and you’re implying that power and defense scaling is balanced? >.> Not sure if serious…

Armour does seem useless. I had 3200 and in WvW a single thief killed 2 other people – so I started chasing him down but then he killed me too. My health went from full (over 15K HP) to virtually nothing in 1 hit. And he was invisible almost the entire time.

Best defence vs that sort of glass assault is DPS. Bunkering doesnt work in wvw because their arent stat limits like there are in spvp. If you are rocking 100+ crit damage and 60% crit like those wvw glass builds you pretty much avoid all defence.

The weakness of the glass builds is the lack of defence, but if you are packing no attack because you tried to bunker up you wont generate enough threat to kill them before they can use avoidance skills and stealths to escape. You need to dodge, identify your target, stay mobile and burst him hard as soon as you have window.

Do that and you can beat lolburst stealth.

The issue with thieves should be fixed soon anyways with the culling updates. I think the biggest issue people have is that they cant see the burst coming at all, so they cant react quick enough when the first hit happens. Having an enemy actually appear next to you should trigger a reaction pretty quickly. (though so should losing half your health so maybe it wont. >.>)

Thief burst potential is still pretty stupid, but as plenty other posters here have noted, Guardian has a range of tools to deal with it.

Full disclosure here, I started as an 80 Thief, rerolled to Ele for WvW, and play Guardian in structured.

Those hits on the OP do seem unusually high, my ele runs with half as much armor and gets hit for about 20% less than what he posted typically, by the same kind of cheesy thief builds. You could argue that this proves that armor is worthless, but I get the feeling we’re not seeing the whole picture.

Just 5 points in Valor would have negated the entire backstab for 9,665 damage, without requiring any reaction on your part. I suppose it’s possible that you have that trait, and the Thief got a lucky flame burst proc or something of that nature to eat it, but it’s impossible to tell.

If you believe armor is not useful, try running a build with full vit and low armor and see what you think.

The fact is, every player of every class has to deal with certain cheesy burst combos that exist in the game right now. Part of learning to play my ele was developing the muscle memory to mash Mist Form whenever half my HP mysteriously disappeared for no apparent reason, and developing the discipline to keep it in reserve for just those kinds of situations.

Regardless of the state of balance, getting better right now includes learning to activate block/invul/blind skills in sub-second time when a combo like this starts. Focus 5 and/or Shelter are practically made for exactly this situation, and being able to fire them before a Backstab lands is well worth practicing.

For a good laugh, the next time you 1v1 against a Thief, see how many attacks in a row you can completely negate at the start of a fight, just for kicks. It’s a terrible way to manage your cooldowns, but it is funny, and you may learn a few things in the process.

Mug doing any more than 2500 dmg max is stupid.

It’s a 10 point trait…

Rump Buffalo.2594:

Mug doing any more than 2500 dmg max is stupid.

It’s a 10 point trait…

Things they broke and haven’t fixed yet, if they ever do.

With full PVT set, and valkyrie jewels, I was hit by an an 8k Steal, 4.5k backstab, and then a 5k C&D the other day.

Funniest part was that even with the vitality gear I only have 16k HP.

:’)

I’ve played guardian since beta and I feel so gimped, especially with the latest meta. Even guardians don’t have nearly enough condition removal to counter condition spamming necros, rangers, mesmers, and thieves. The prominence of glass cannon characters in WvW and PvP simply shafts guardians (and warriors too occasionally). Conditions ignore armor, critical hits deal insane amounts of damage even against heavy armor. And even if we have the slightest chance of survival, we lack a lot of runaway skills, outside of retreat and the greatsword leap. Slow combat walk cripples guardians, yet thieves and d/d eles don’t seem to be affected by it….

I don’t know. I think necros, mesmers, and thieves really need to be tweaked. Or at least let the GUARDIAN live up to its name. Bigger health pool, maybe adjust heavy armor values. Defensive guardians have barely any offensive capabilities, and offensive guardians are way squishy. Possible solution: Next update when they add more ascended gear, possibly have heavy armor or guardian-exclusive gear include above-average vitality stats in comparison to other classes’.

Adding more items such as Armor or Accessories to help make up for the lack of survivability of the Guardian is NOT the answer. Guardians need a visit by the devs and really think on some solid changes, LIKE maybe having a bigger health Pool just as warriors do. It -Just- makes sense. Why they didn’t is really hard to understand.

And of course Armor Value shouldn’t have a diminishing return, cause frankly as it is; it’s a very very terrible stat that needs to be Truly looked into. We gain so much more with other stats, point for point.

Armor does not have diminishing returns.

Armor dont have DR just because its a divisor in the damage formula.
There is not a prefixed % of damage reduction related to Armor, so no need of DR

Legacy.7360:

Adding more items such as Armor or Accessories to help make up for the lack of survivability of the Guardian is NOT the answer. Guardians need a visit by the devs and really think on some solid changes, LIKE maybe having a bigger health Pool just as warriors do. It -Just- makes sense. Why they didn’t is really hard to understand.

And of course Armor Value shouldn’t have a diminishing return, cause frankly as it is; it’s a very very terrible stat that needs to be Truly looked into. We gain so much more with other stats, point for point.

Armor does scale lower as you get more. This has to happen, it happens in every game. They just need to look at the scaling (HINT its cuz protection is 33%, needs to come down to 25% so that we can fix toughness/armor).

Your other point. Guardian does not need higher HP. They have massive availability to protection, regeneration, and aegis, not to mention insanely good healing spells and traits/utilities. These things make up for health pool loss and this is the way the guardian is intended to be kept alive, much like how elementalist bunkers live through their healing and condition removal. This is not bad design and does not need to be looked at, although bunker builds need some toning down