Guild Wars 2

Virtue of justice is a lot like the Anthem of Flame and I must admit it completely went over my head in my enthusiasm! ^^

Changing the Elite Specialization, in my suggestion would however also end up changing the virtue of justice. The effect would thus be lost.
Giving the effect to an anthem utility skill would be great!

This also makes giving a new skill-type of “Anthems” interesting in giving them an active and passive effect as well.

Yannir.4132:

@bearshaman, @darknicrofia and @Ragnar the Rock, please stop this now. While your concerns and points are legit, this is off-topic. This is a topic for musings about future elite specs, which is way way into the future, I’m sure there is going to be major patches and updates before any of this comes to be. There are already plenty of topics about the current guardian issues.

@Ragnar the Rock I’ve been putting together an elite spec that thematically focuses on polearms and tomes. Practically, I’ve given bleeds to the AA chain for now, #2 skill is a gap closer with a short knockdown, #5 skill is 3-5s block which inflicts burns on blocks and it can be released for an AoE burn+dmg. Rather than going with the javelins that paragons had, I feel like a melee polearm is more fitting. (not to mention I always hated that paragons were a ranged class)

I’ll make a more comprehensive post about this later, but my initial design seems to be getting very good synergy out of zeal and virtues. To make things clear, my design IS condi oriented.

Apologies, my intent is the same as your post here. I have a similar thread on the ranger forum where I’m trying to get people to think about new elite specs, and they keep going into what they don’t like about the class. My comments are to try to get people back on topic, I guess that wasn’t very clear.

As I said, I like the tomes idea with a similar implimentation as engi kits. I think that would work well for a “monk” elite spec (not necessarily like GW1 since I’m not sure what that games monk was like), with a definite focus on the tome “weapon” skills providing different group buffs, each tome centered around some monk-like theme. For instance, Way of Purity could do damage that scales the more conditions the enemy has (punish them for their impurity!), and has a #5 skill that provides a pulsing resistance boon to allies, with some condi cleanse or condi “purification” (convert to boons) for the group.

Edit: I’ll flesh this out more and post something later today.

@Nero Adding a ranged #3 skill was totally my intention, but I’ve yet to decide how it should work thought. For the #4, I was thinking of a party buff(maybe swiftness, unless #4 staff skill is reworked at some point). Some other added benefits as well.

Some very interesting suggestions you have there, I’ll definitely give them some thought. Especially for healing and elite utilities, there was some very good ideas there.

Good dps that isn’t just reliant on hammer.

But most importantly a elite spec with a movement increase trait.

Now, now, this thread is tasty but let’s not get hasty.

Fashion Mage.3712:

As much as I like polearms, I don’t think they would fit at all with a tome-themed spec. I say save polearms for a paragon spec, and save tomes for a monk spec.

First thing:
As I said before, you want Paragons then you know where to find them (Now a savage version in Far Cry: Primal). I doubt that devs would want to stab their own lore in the back by giving every race a Paragon spec.
Unless they will only name it “Paragon” but it won’t be like its GW1 counterpart then Im okay with that.
Seriously, heavy armored class with shield that relies only on a thrown weapon feels really weird.
Second thing:
We discuss pole weapons, not javelins or spears. Polearms are not meant to be thrown but to be used in close and medium ranged combat to fend off and impale enemies.

In the end of the day, Paragons are gone along with human gods, we have to deal with it.
+ We already have 3 main ranged weapons and one of them is already for support (on land).

Yannir.4132:

For the tomes part, I was thinking of converting virtues into a tome. Rather than having a lot different tomes, why not just have one but just turn the pages for different spells used from it? I had an idea, not sure how popular this will be but here goes, that it would kind of turn them into something similar to elementalist attunements in a way that they could only be used one at a time. Still have the same passive effects, slightly boosted to account for only having one, and give it an active part that is also strong. The spells could be called blessings, and they would be used for utilities as well.

Bro… you just got me there, I feel it.
This idea feels much, much better indeed. “Equipping” a tome in the form of Elite specalization traitline, perhaps instead of pages the utilities could be followed with “Chronicle”. Something in the lines of: “Chronicle of cleansing” – Some sort of pulsing AoE cleansing.
I’ve looked upon certain things like upkeep and lifeforce or other alternative sources of power.
I thought about this: What if with this tome spec we also got an energy bar but not meant to change us into some sort of a “righteous juggernaut” but energy that powers up those “pages” you talked about or “chronicles” as I like to refer to.

I see it as an energy bar that works like initative or revenant’s upkeep. Then we could “swipe” through the pages activating only one of them at a time. Depending on the “chronicle” we choose, it would pulse boons/conditions and could be activated once more for a special attack/healing/support/ward (yet again, depending on the chronicle). It could be used for as long as we have upkeep, If we wished for it to be used for a longer duration of time, we would be forced to fight just like Rev does with their source of energy.
Also a little touch I mention on Elite spec thread in gw2 discussions sub-forum. Tome hanging down our leg, carried by chains – Warcraft paladins style… oh my that would make me shed tears of joy.
Check out the attachement for a closer look of what I have in mind.

Now for the last thing regarding those that feel polearm does not add up with tomes.
One word: Lorekeeper.
Someone gave that idea and I bless that man/woman for this. It sounds truly amazing and fits guardian just right. (http://disney.trendolizer.com/assets_c/2016/02/2513293-thumb-300xauto-2184352.jpg)

When I think “polearm” I see a stalwart warden that stands on the first line, guarding/keeping what he holds dear.
Imagine it along with me, a tome of dank magic held in one hand and a glorious polearm in the other.

EDIT:
This idea of tomes and kit tomes (like engineer’s) both sound so good that I can’t decide T^T.

I don’t follow you when you claim Paragons to only fit humans.
They have no relation whatsoever with the human gods and are basically inspirational leaders on the battlefield. They are named Paragons for being the physical embodiment of the ideal soldier.
A-net has stabbed their own lore as much in the back by giving every race a warrior and likely more so by giving every race a Guardian, Mesmer or Necromancer.

In GW1 the Paragon got a lot of criticizements at first as well for using their spear as a javelin instead of as a polearm. (as shown in concept art)
Throwing a Javelin while equipped with a shield is however certainly not a flawed in combat and GW2’s combat allows for both.

Polearm skins are also already in-game, and they’re being used as melee weapons or are thrown underwater.
Besides, greatswords are also not meant to be thrown or used as ranged weapons and neither are hammers!

In short:
Nothing about the Paragon says it can’t be a Stalwart warden standing on the front line, in fact Yannir’s entire suggestion was just this and I later desired to add a ranged detail.

Nor does anything say a Charr can’t be a Paragon, in fact I believe a Charr would be far more fitting to be a Paragon compared to many humans. Unless we just went back a few hundred years in Tyrian history and Charr can only communicate using low grunts and roars now! :P

I was just talking with people on /map chat in Lion’s Arch.
Paragons are only human restricted profession which brings as to the second point.
It shouldn’t be an elite spec but a whole profession, dunno why exactly as I never played gw1 but those vets I talked with claimed that it’s too valuable to minimalize it to the level of just elite specialization.

“Paragons are touched by the gods, chosen by them to serve as emissaries among mortals.” – GWwiki

There are only human gods in gw universe and only mankind is believing in them.
But about prideful and stalwart class, yes I have to agree. They are indeed commanders that shine above their allies. Yet what is more stalwart, hiding behind a shield and throwing sticks or impaling enemies in a glorious close combat? Getting close and personal gives us that good and supreme feeling.

Design the land spear with a melee auto attack chain (something close to revenant sword auto chain, or give it just insane attack speed, like diablo 2’s amazon jab ability) but have skill 2 and 3 ranged.

Rodzynald.5897:

First thing:
As I said before, you want Paragons then you know where to find them (Now a savage version in Far Cry: Primal). I doubt that devs would want to stab their own lore in the back by giving every race a Paragon spec.
Unless they will only name it “Paragon” but it won’t be like its GW1 counterpart then Im okay with that.
Seriously, heavy armored class with shield that relies only on a thrown weapon feels really weird.
Second thing:
We discuss pole weapons, not javelins or spears. Polearms are not meant to be thrown but to be used in close and medium ranged combat to fend off and impale enemies.

In the end of the day, Paragons are gone along with human gods, we have to deal with it.
+ We already have 3 main ranged weapons and one of them is already for support (on land).

Almost all of the guardian’s weapons are melee, the scepter is pseudo-ranged, and the staff is mid-range (and is probably better at farming than supporting).
My point was that thematically and gameplay-wise, polearms have nothing to do with tomes. Tomes as they existed in the game were either long-range healing and defensive support, or long-range AoE DPS and offensive support. Thematically speaking, tomes are purely magical weapons typically associated with monks due to their gameplay-style and monk prayer references. In terms of gameplay, polearms would either be a condition greatsword or some other melee weapon. Thematically polearms are martial weapons. I mean, polearms are nice, but personally I don’t want them anywhere near tomes.

If the spec focuses on tomes, it’ll be a long-range support spec, which’ll be new to guardians and largely new to the game as a whole because real long-range support is nearly non-existent in GW2.
If the spec focuses on polearms, then it’s either just a melee dps spec or close-range support spec, both of which are identical to the vanilla meditation/shout guardian and defeat the point of an elite spec. If tomes are changed to conform to that spec and are just made into more close/mid range support despite the fact that guardians already have a ton of that, then that’d be extremely disappointing because they’d lose half of what made them so fun and unique. The spec should be based around tomes, not the other way around. Quite frankly, the moment ANet destroys what tomes are supposed to be is the moment I quit the game for good. The only reason I didn’t quit when they were removed the first time was because my friends wanted me to keep playing.

As for paragons, I don’t personally care if they get in or not, but it’d be nice (I’m more of a monk supporter really). With a modicum of creative thinking and writing, I doubt lore would get in the way of it either.

No weapon has any links to tomes.
But I did not make myself clear about what I meant. What was running on my mind is that polearm might be just an added weapon and elite spec wouldn’t be focusing on that weapon but tomes.
You know, we get a polearm that could share the trait of a greatsword and be just a weapon without any specific specialization that needs to be used for polearm to be equipped. But knowing how things work out this weapon could end up expansion exclusive to use it but I am ok with that as long as it will be in the game.

vvv
Now tomes are in the other end of the stick and this is where the new elite specialization should be focusing at.
A few days ago I talked with some random players in the game on different zones and they in the end of the day they claim that Paragon and javelins belong to GW: Nightfall.
I thought it is only me that see it as a bizzare thing for having an underwater spear and then thrown spear but no close/medium ranged combat polearm.
I guess the second fits guardian much more than throwing a javelin which is already in the form of spear of justice (yes, yes I know it’s just an occasional ability).
Let scepter be semi-ranged and longbow focused on dealing long ranged fat damage. Tomes/Tome for me could end up being a kit as it would make guardian less predictable in PvP and fit multiple roles in PvE content. I guess this might be the best choice as for now we are thought of as an alternative which is mostly redundant taking that few other classes do everything we can and do it better both in pve and in pvp.
In raiding we are seen as an alternative which is mostly just redundant.
You don’t have to respond that “I do raids as a guardian because [put reasons here]” as individuals do not count as well as being viable only as a tank for just VG. We are talking big here, overall stuff and numbers don’t lie.
If I am mistaken, please correct me.
^^^
These are one of the reasons why we should have tomes.

P.S.
I just really dislike the idea of ONLY thrown spears for guardian. It was the reason that drove me away from paragon and nightfall too as I truly admire pole weapons, and not being able to use them in close ranged combat is making me feel sad. Javelins are a better fit for ranger as a hunter but for a heavy plate wearing and magic powered guardian that should be going head first to the danger? I just can’t feel it, it is just as weird as giving a longbow.

I would like to see a condi elite specialization for guardian

Personally, I don’t think any of the old gw1 classes(ones that are not in the game yet) are going to make a comeback. What I think could happen is they make classes that can bear their mantle. Some of these mantlebearers are already in the game, such as thieves(assassin), revenants(ritualist) and guardians, that already bear monks and dervishes abilities.

I think there should be a mantlebearer for paragon as well, but that warriors are more suited to that end. I know that thematically paragons are supposed to be the holy warrior type, but the emphasis is clearly on the warrior-part of the theme. Paragons used to have adrenaline, for example. Leadership is also something that fits military types extremely well.

About the elite spec I’m designing, it is going to be melee for now, with a few ranged skills as well. Dragonhunters already have down the ranged part of being a guardian. If you don’t like it, too bad. And when I think polearm, I’m not thinking of a spear exactly, rather than a glaive, poleaxe or halberd. Glaive is a spearlike weapon that has a blade 1/3 the length of the weapon, and that’s what I’m focusing on.

Furthermore, I’m not going to incorporate a speed boost trait, since I feel that should be fixed in the core class rather than in an elite spec.

Honestly unless they make scepter more reliable for ranged I would want & possibly expect any new elite spec to either have lots of ways to close gaps quickly or at least somewhat viable ranged options for spike or constant damage.

Otherwise allot of guards will not want to use it due to them stating you cannot have 2 elite specs at the same time.
I say this because for all the faults DH has the reliable ranged damage of bow makes getting kited around a non issue.

I suggested an Elite spec called the archivist a while back.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/Elite-spec-The-Archivist-Warhorn-Chants/first#post5990453

Hopefully it’ll be something just as non-cancer and engaging as traps.

I decided to dig up a thought experiment from almost 6 months ago. I’d probably change a few things around, but the theme is still there.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/guardian/The-Justicar-An-experiment-in-E-Spec-design/first#post5620731

guardians can’t go back to using scepter as the only viable ranged weapon, it just can’t.

the next elite spec will HAVE to be another ranged weapon, or the next expansion will need to allow guardians to use longbows without speccing into DH (just the weapon skills, no benefit of DH virtues or traits).

If Warriors can get a stat set as an elite spec, then I want a Cleric. Druid’s good at being right there with their team with a crap ton of burst healing when it’s needed. Revenant can do quite a bit of sustained healing, so long as they focus entirely on it. I would want Cleric to be a back line, HEAVY heal-over-time kinda class so that you can drop your HoTs and get to fighting from range with heavy burning abilities and party wide buffing without having to worry about how healthy your team is.

If we can’t get land spears and can’t keep longbows, I wouldn’t mind a rifle condi spec that focuses less on burst and more on sustained damage.

What I want: Sustained, decent dmg that involves more than pressing 1 as well as some nice offensive party buffing options. I personally don’t rly care if it’s condi or direct dmg.

What I assume we’ll get: A crappy healing spec based on the tomes they removed no one will ever use in PvE because druid already covers the job so nicely.

You know as much as Anet changed lore over the years they could easily change a bit more for a paragon themed spec.

Instead of relying on the human gods for power they could just say that Paragons have proven themselves the hero’s of their people and draw power from their peoples faith in them.

Kind of like how guardians draw power from their wanting to protect their allies.

Darknicrofia.2604:

guardians can’t go back to using scepter as the only viable ranged weapon, it just can’t.

the next elite spec will HAVE to be another ranged weapon, or the next expansion will need to allow guardians to use longbows without speccing into DH (just the weapon skills, no benefit of DH virtues or traits).

Or they could finally rework the scepter, hammer, & sword god knows they have needed fixes for quite a while.

For scepter if they would do the following it would be quite nice

1: Make the number 1 a channeled beam (similar to mes greatsword) with near instant connect.

2: Change smite into a symbol so that it benefits from traits. (Could easily be made to do damage similar to symbol of protection & grant might)

then walla scepter is a good weapon.

Ragnar the Rock.3174:

walla

I’d rather keep my orbs tyvm.
However, every weapon needs to have a Symbol.

I’d rather keep the orbs too, but just buff their velocity or homing. I’m not really a fan of most beams in this since they lack counterplay that normal projectiles have.

The thing I would like to see changed to the AA of the scepter is to at least make it appear more dangerous.

Appearance isn’t everything but to me it’s certainly an important aspect of the game.

I like using Scepter right now, mostly because of the off-hand it provides and Smite not being that bad in some places like the Siege of Ascalon Fractal.
Yet the Auto-attack feels harmless, not because of the actual damage but because of the size and speed of the orbs.

Take the Shield of Absorption profession reveal video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBj4DD2saDg

The orbs were planned to be far bigger and, although still slow, more impressive in appearance.

When A-net releases the toggle or slider to adjust the visual appearance of skills such as the Ele’s “Fire spit”. I hope the Guardian’s Scepter will get an adjustment as well.

Regardless of all this, and to stay on the topic of elite specializations:

I’d rather see an elite spec combined with a new weapon (still vouching for spear) with fast and effective gap-closers.

The Guardian is a slow class, many of us realize this.

• Hammer is very slow and received the traited chill as to keep their targets in-place.
• Greatsword has the leap of faith and Binding Blaids to stick close to its targets paired with being a weapon with a decent attack speed.
• Sword has Blinding Flash but needs a rework in other areas.

Staff, Scepter, Mace have nothing to close gaps with but:

• Staff has Line of Warding.
• Scepter has Chains of Light.

Not all weapons/off-hands need gap-closers/CC and as such Mace, Torch, Focus, Shield (I don’t consider the knockback from SoA favourable for a gap-closer :P) are fine as they are CC-wise.

I’m still toying with the paragon/sunspear elite specialization (Condi + support) I have in mind.

• Weapon: Spear. (mostly single target, faster paced, condition based.)

1. Fast, single target stab-chain with an additional burn not unlike the Necromancer’s Scepter’s bleeds.
2. Gap-closer with a relatively short recharge. I was thinking of something along the lines of the Elementalist’s Dagger’s Burning Speed: Sliding forward with a stabbing motion leaving a burning trail and perhaps even a burst when the gap-closer results in a succesful stab on the target.
3. A block. An active block is a nice addition to a faster-paced weapon. For this skill I was thinking of a combination of GW1’s http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Burning_Shield and GW2’s http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Counterblow (blocking only 1 attack instead of channeling for multiple blocks.) A short, fast, active block with a fiery burst if succesful.
4. unsure because of the reason stated below…
5. unsure beacuse of the reason stated below…

Reason: Now many seem to consider Spear as a two-handed weapon, as it appears to be but if you take a look at the centaurs you’ll see that they use a spear/polearm combined with a shield. As such it may also be interesting to look at spears as single-handed weapons.

When looking at the weapon-skills of my suggested elite-specialization you’ll notice it’s more offensive than defensive. The Utility skills and Profession Mechanics are intended to balance this out.

In an earlier post I suggested changing the virtues to echoes which I still conceptually support:

As a Guardian we currently have our 3 virtues.
Virtue of Justice – Damage + burning – Offensive.
Virtue of Resolve – Healing (+ damage/movement if DH) – Utility + Defensive.
Virtue of Courage – Block – Defensive.

I believe the virtues could easily become Echoes.
Echo of Justice (GW1: Blazing Finale) –
Passive: Allies inflict burning whenever a Chant or Anthem ends. (weak burning)
Active: Throw a blazing spear at the target foe, burning it and enemies surrounding it.
Echo of Resolve (Finale of Restoration) –
Passive: Allies are healed whenever a Chant or Anthem ends.
Active: (GW1: “Help me!”) Heals are 50% more effective on you for 10 seconds and you’re healed for a small amount.
Echo of Courage –
Passive: Allies gain Retaliation whenever a Chant or Anthem ends.
Active: Allies gain 2 stacks of Aegis. (OP?)

The reason why I gave the Echo of Courage an active effect of giving Aegis is because I really appreciate the on-demand Aegis found in “Retreat!”. Many of us agree however that this skill is very outdated with its small benefit and long recharge.
The Echo of Courage would have an even longer recharge if it follows the example of its virtue-counterparts and as such I saw it fit to buff the active.

A 4th bonus to counter a condi-meta:
Echo of Purity –
Passive: Allies will have 1 condition removed whenever a Chant or Anthem ends.
Active: Gain Resistance and remove 2 conditions.

In the above quote I mentioned the anthems which I’d like to see as unstrippable party-wide buffs due to the guardians being heavily countered by any boon-stripping.

Something else that might be interesting is giving the guardians a boon strip themselves.
But how do you justify a boon-strip for a guardian…

I would like to see some sort of battle mage heavy caster using burning, confuision and torment conditions. Possibly the introduction of holy/light damage idk.

Maybe a reworking of staff for that as a weapon, because its pretty much useless now. Otherwise…not sure what weapon they could use because such an elite spec would warrant the full 5 skills. Unless they go double axes/Daggers.

I want to do away with “elite specs”….eventually people will learn everything from every other person and history will repeat itself; classes will lose their “roles” and no class will be unique.

I want there to be more build Diversity approach without taking something from another class to make it their own. More like an improvement of what they Are.

I want something along the lines of,

• Enabling just one Minor, Master, or Grand Master trait from another tree
• Activating / Summon, a single skill from any weapon set to use in battle
  (your long bow #3 skill become sword #3 skill, or hammer #3 skill, etc!)
• And / Or, a single utility skill of your choosing becomes a weapon skill instead

Something along those lines… but I definitely want some more Diversity in the game for sure. I miss Theory crafting builds to be honest. It might be a balance nightmare for the team but I think it’ll be an interesting project.

I honestly think ANet could do a DLC utility pack kind of thing between expansions that would give us 1 new utility skill of each type per profession. Maybe no elites but anyway. It would also give them a reason to have a hard look at the current utilities and see what’s not working. The DLC could be a cash-only type of purchase.