Guild Wars 2

I see a,ot of folks in here that confuse broken with their personal preference when it comes to the hammer.

I must admit i myself did the same mistake regarding the hammer and how sluggish it felt and during beta and bwe i often supported suggestions that promoted a decreased castingtime on especially the chainskill.

I was firmly convinced that hammer/x was inferior to 1h sword/scepter and that the weapon was an inferior choice compared to pretty much anything out there so when i played tournements i played with secpter/sword, a setup i actually disliked but it just performed better..

After BWE3 Alarox posted som videos on guildwars2guru.com when he played hammerguardian and it looked completely different compared to when i made my feeble attempts and i decided that during bwe3 i would make an honest attempt to understand the hammer.

My view on how to play guardian changed after that and with the introduction of the leap on skill 2 its my main weapon, in pve and pvp. The only time i switch it out of my buildelse is when i need to kite and be mobile, ie explorermode in dungeons.

When the game launched i started off with the mace but as soon as i could i bought me a hammer and i used it in 200 tournements (positive win/loss), all storymodes and ofc leveling from level 2 to 80. Imo the most powerful weapon we have, the combination of best burst, supreme teambuffs, really nice cc and survivability makes this a weapon that just rules. I will try to explain these claims further down, bare with me.

So that is my background, the reason i write this is to give a better picture on where i come from and what effort i needed to put in order to have an understanding of the true greatness of the hammer.

1. Why shouldnt casting time on skill one be reduced?
Easy, grab 2h mastery and skill one and two are almost seemless and on every symbol you put up, you can finsih it with a blast from skill 2.
If you reduce the casting time on skill one with just a couple of tenths of a second the symbol will disapear before you have skill 2 off cd.

This would mean that you only perform one combofinisher every 2nd chain you perform instead of every chain. Shortening castingtime is a huge nerf, not a buff.

Well we can all agree on that the third step is very slow and not very sexy. If we cant shortening overall casteningtime, without breaking the synergies we have, then a solution might be that we redistribute time from the third step and to the second step, making the second step slower and the third step faster.

Well then you have to think about the consequences here, the fine thing with step 2 and 3 is, besides great dps, the fact that you can support your team. The fact is that even if you miss the third step today it will mean that you put down a symbol for your team and you finish the combo for retal on the team. The leap makes it possible to jump from teh symbol, addign retal to your team and bursting the opponent at the saem time.

If the casting time between step 1 and 2 would be increased, it would mean that the needed skill to set up the symbol would increase, the presteps would be harder to achieve.

So in conclusion:
LEAVE THE CHAIN UNTOUCHED, IT WORKS WONDERS AS IT IS AND HAS GREAT SYNERGIES WHICH MAKES US THE PROFESSION THAT CAN EXECUTE MOST COMBOS OF ALL IN BATTLE AND ALL WITH A TEAMWIDE EFFECT. PROTECTION AND RETAL ARE A MATCH MADE IN HEAVEN.

Continue here!

2. Regarding burst. The hammer is supreme even in this area, if you check the damage numbers on the chain you will see that the third step hits like a truck (step 1 and 2 also hits harder the gs/1h) and if you trait the size om the symbol you will also hit with at least 2 hits from the symbol. Add in that MB is on a 5(4) sec cd, half of whirling wrath, and that the damage from it is well over 50% of WW.

Both WW and ZD are also very easy to avoid and almost demands a cc for full effect versus skilled players. MB is not that easy to avoid and is also very suited for a 100% crit on swap sigil and in the chain described below it would mean 75% chance to crit on 2*MB in a build with 50% crit rating.

Checkout a mighty blow combo (MB+CHAIN+MB takes 5 sec to perform) and while doing that it brings both protection and retal to the team. You can even dodge after the chain and use the leap to hit the last MB. Using a combination of chain+ZD or chain+WW takes about the same time, check out what combo that do most damage and especially versus skilled opponents.

Great suvivability. Altruistic healing is just crazy with the hammer due to the numbers of boons it spews out, then add in the aoe and crits from aoe. with feated vigorous precision. Just these two traits gives me inbetween 400-700 in hp on every chain+mb in a 2 on 2. Its beyond good, something that would be severely nerfed by shortend casting on the chain. If you want it all then add in empowering might for more firepower and heals.

Great CC, well three cc that all of them can be used in offense and defense. AoE root is great even though a bit more difficult to land then most other cc.

The same with banish, its slow and it single target and offensively you need to really use your imagination and use the terrain as roadblock, that is one great way to use it in offense.

Ring of warding, superpowerful and multiple cc in one, the ring is great even though it takes some planning to pull it off and the knockdown is just nasty.

Overall a very powerful weapon that actually deserves long casting times, stationary casting on cc, slow casting on banish and skillbased aim on the root.

If this was made easier or more convenient it would be so crazy OP or you need to break the greatness (ie skill 1 and skill 2) in the synergies within the weapon and with traits.

Please dont mix up personal taste with broken.

The hammer is great and it works wonders, dont break it for the ones that actually found out how to use it..

So far I was indifferent about the attack speed of #1 but now that you mention a faster attack speed would break the synergy with #2 you convinced me that the current attack speed has to stay.
Nice read overall.

1. Why shouldnt casting time on skill one be reduced?
Easy, grab 2h mastery and skill one and two are almost seemless and on every symbol you put up, you can finsih it with a blast from skill 2.
If you reduce the casting time on skill one with just a couple of tenths of a second the symbol will disapear before you have skill 2 off cd.

This would mean that you only perform one combofinisher every 2nd chain you perform instead of every chain. Shortening castingtime is a huge nerf, not a buff.

You could have just said that, with the first part being something we actually don’t care about, and describing the hammer, which we already know how it works.

Having to do a Blast EVERY single time you place the symbol instead of every second cooldown finish on Mighty Blow does not compare to what people is actually concerned about, having to wait forever to see that 3rd chain finish is NOT fun (I can’t put enough emphasis in not).
Honestly, you mostly tell us how we should use the hammer, when in practice you wont be doing: three hit chain+Mighty Blow+three hit chain+Mighty Blow; you will be dodging, you will be weapon swaping, you will be using utility skills, the other skills on the weapon set, etc. This is not WoW where you have your specific optimal dps rotation in every engagement (or a brief AoE retaliation buff in this case). Also, not everyone’s going to be using the Two Handed Mastery trait.
And seriously, you seem to be calling OP or UD to stuff where durations and numbers can be easily changed (to acomodate to a more fluid and faster chain in this case) from a development perspective.

To bad you didnt find the first part interesting, the point was that people maybe should put some effort into playing the weapon a bit more before promoting to destroy it for the ones that actually put in the time and effort.

When you say “people” you infact mean “you” as some sort of model of the general opinion about the hammer.

Well YOU dont find it fun to have a long cast because it makes it more difficult to hit and more easy to interupt.

I find it superfun to have a long cast with some punch (as it is today) and synergy with my other skills. So “people” dont find it boring, just the ones that clearly state its boring, most of them want it changed because they cant hit with a slow skill like that but that is my prejudice.

I know how i play this, if there is more then one opponent and at least one teammate that is exact how i play it, that 3 skill combo is crazy nice so why wouldnt i do that. Ofc i use other skills and dodge but after that i restart the 3 skill combos.

I suggest that you should read on so you get a full grasp on what really happens if they reduce cast time, besides a straight dps nerf to the chain and a durationnerf to the symbol. Survivability on the weapon would drop. Once again people should put some effort into it before demanding changes without udnerstanding the overall consequence of their request.

This is one of the few, if not the only, weapon that allows for a shoutbased competitive guardian, well on par with the meditationbuilds we/i use in tournements. That would go out the window if the current synergy between skill 1 and 2 would disappear.

If people cant live with the cast time on the third step and based on that they stay away from the hammer im pretty certain that they dont like the weapon to begin with.

This is the weapon that demands most from the player and its also the most powerful one in the current iteration. I find it logical that the most powerfil one also is the hardest one to use.

As you said this isnt wow and dumbing down gameplay based on that one step in one skill is “boring” is actually more wow then promoting to keep synergies, maybe at a cost in funfactor for some players..

And yes there are rotations in this game as well, anyone used BB to set up WW on GS or a signet before ZD?

I havent said this is OP but it will be if they change casting times on the chainsskill and keep the current synergy with mighty blow.

I prefer the synergies with MB and traits then getting it ruined by shortend castingtime.

The casting time is justified since we are talking about at least 2k damage and areaprotection and retaliation.

You obviously have you way of thinking the Hammer CONNOT possibly be improved as it’s already very powerful and with ‘supreme’ sinergies (albeit a pretty narrow view of the matter). This is just becoming to be subjective, there’re people like you, who like it and opt with a conformist attitude towards what they see as a competent and powerful weapon and then there’re people like me who see an effective and powerful weapon that could have an improvement in the fun factor without altering the effective factor, you are the one that doesn’t seem to grasp this (my appologies if you do, you don’t seem to make it clear to me).
You said according to your prejudice, most people don’t like it becouse it’s difficult to land the last chain hit, as did I claiming it’s just plain not fun or it just feels slow, plain and simple (according to MANY posters, as well). I respect you like it slow, don’t get me wrong.
I personally don’t reclaim ever saying I don’t like it becouse it’s difficult to hit nor I’ve ever claimed there are no “rotations” whatsoever, by the way.

You increase chain speed and increase the symbol duration by an extra second, not hard.

I also play Hammer/GS in PvP and while I know what it is capable of, it doesn’t change the fact the 3rd hit in the chain is too long to come out for the effect it gives in most situations.

There are plenty of ways ANet can go about it to improve the flow of that chain and keep everything else as smooth as it is.

I put alot of effort into trying to like the hammer. I picked it many times on my way to 80 and tried to get used to the slow pause. I would even of been happy if they put mighty blow on a slightly longer cooldown so you could mb every 2 1 chains as long as the pause wasn`t there. So may cool looking hammers that I would want to have but won`t bother because the weapon just don`t feel right to me.

Ofc it can be fixed, the question is if it needs to be fixed and imo there isnt anything wrong with the hammer.

It do its job, and its extremely powerful while doing it.

If it aint broken dont fix it.

@Ramza
Seems resonable at first glance but if you reduce the animation with one second you need to increase the duration of the symbol so it “fits” with mighty blow, with one second.

What will happen then is that the symbol will go from 2 sec duration to 3 sec duration and the animation from approx 3,75 seconds to 2,75 seconds, making the animation overlap the symbol.

This would mean that it would be possible to stack both protection from the symbol and retaliation from the finisher and have it up 24/7 without investing in a single trait or runes to do it. Is this desirable when they just eliminated 24/7 retaliation from symbol of wrath?

I think the effect from this is just awesome, hardest hitting 3 step in any of our chains and a symbol with protection and damage from the symbol as well. Check the casting on the other symbols and its definitely on par.

But if you think the trade off is to small then instead of decreasing the castin,g promote more damage.

Im all for making things fun so by all means make it more fun but shortening the animation isnt the solution.

If you think its so boring then redistribute within the animation, making the gap between 1 and 2 longer and 2 and 3 shorter, then you can get higher perceived speed even though the animation length is intact.

@Banewrath
Just as GS and staff doesnt feel right for me. There is nothing wrong with those weapons and nothing needs to be fixed, just like there is nothing wrong with the hammer and nothing needs to be fixed.

Honestly, I like the hammer, I don’t think it needs much in the way of changing. In fact, I think the 1 skill chain is fine, for me #5 is the issue. I wish it had either a mild damage component, or if not, maybe a slightly longer duration.

Yeah the hammer looks like it could be a lot of fun – I had a 78 Exotic one but then salvaged it ;x. As of now the output for AoE for the sword seems too good comparably, not sure if that’s true or not. As I haven’t experimented much, it’s hard to say.

I think one of the main issues regarding weapons is their connection to traits, or what you slot. Like, “Greatsword attacks heal you” or “One-hand crit chance goes up 15%” or whatever really affect what you use. I think every weapon needs more or less love in this area.

As per the 5th skill for the Hammer, it needs to add something I feel. Maybe a burn if you touch the outskirts? That will give me incentive to bash my 4 skill sending them into the wall, besides the obvious “that’s hilarious” type of thing; it also keeps with the idea of burning for guardians, though something like a weakness or cripple would be better. I’d say either add that, if they touch it they get crippled for a bit, or just take out their ability to leave it and just make them get 2 conditions (maybe cripple+weakness or cripple+burn) for like 10s.

I’m currently running with an Exotic GS, so that’s my primary weapon. Though ultimately I’d like The Juggernaut (years later…). We’ll see how things progress.

Well for being the most powerful melee weapon, there sure are alot of people who don`t like it. That in itself should be a hint that the pause in 1 chain is pretty absurd. There are plenty ways they could balance it to make it more acceptable. The question is do they want to.

All the weapons should give smooth performance. I use them all on my guardian except for the hammer because it`s not smooth or fluid. It feels clunky like it`s working more against me then for me.

I know if I were a game developer, which I love modding games btw. I wouldn`t be happy until I felt that all the weapons performed smoothly and felt like an extension of your arm. If I were a gw2 dev I would be content with the current guardian weapons and fine tune them more over time. But I would have sat in front of 3dsmax or maya for days straight without sleep trying to srtraighten out that hammer.

If they made it faster, then I would expect a decrease in damage to both the chain and mighty blow to compensate. Whether or not this would be better in the long run is another question entirely, but I don’t really care one way or another atm. I’d rather see more utility out of #5 before I want the devs fiddling with #1 and #2.

The OP makes a decent case, but what I also find frustrating is that the hammer seems more trait dependent than other weapons, meaning you’re better off using something else while leveling. Not the biggest of issues, but a little frustrating for us slow levelers.

Also would be cool if we could choose between a knock up/down and knock back, say one tap to knock up, second tap to hit it out of the park.

Well they could tone down the damage multiplier on the attacks slightly and reetime the buffs to match the new value. You would still be giving the same boons over the same duration pretty much. You can allready sit there and keep protection up for like 98% of the time it takes to complete the chain anyway so that wouldn`t be an issue.
it could still be spammed. Which is ridiculous anyway to give a hammer a spammable prot buff and yet the shield gets a 30 second cooldown prot buff. But that`s an argument for a whole other thread.

Lets just say if you were critting for 4k, after the changes your crits would drop to like anywhere from 3700 to 3900 or so. You would lose a little bit of top end damage but gain a more consistant and reliable attack rate. Now the people who love seeing big number crits would have a heart attack but in reality they would be gaining one free swing with the chance to land an additional 3700-3900 damage if they hit the keys fast enough. Which would fall more in line with what a heavy blunt trauma object should be doing.

I agree with the OP’s assessment, but I want to add a few caveats. First, though, it’s important to remember that despite (or perhaps because of) the Hammer’s incredibly slow third attack, the Hammer auto-attack chain is one of the very best in the game (arguably the best).

Here’s what you get out of it.

• High damage. The slow animation of the third attack is counterbalanced against a big spike of damage.
• Free Symbol at the end, which damages enemies and buffs allies.
• Great synergy with Altruistic Healing
• Great synergy with any Symbol-improving Traits. Trait this up to make Symbols bigger, cause vulnerability and give free heals.
• Free Combo Field: Light. That’s free Retaliation and free Cleansing Bolts.
• Seriously, free Cleansing Bolts. People have not yet realized how amazing that is.
• All that from ONE attack.

The downside? It’s slow. It is slooooooow. Enemies with any degree of mobility are going to be able to evade, dodge or just get out of the way. So Hammer really, really shines when you’ve got some kind of snare/movement reduction/control effect going, or you’re in PVE and enemies are standing still.

By the way, that Chill effect you get on crit? The one they just added? The one nobody seems to think is any good?

That Chill effect effectively means a free Symbol of Protection, and all the goodies that come with it.

Now, the caveats:

1. You can make a case for a faster attack speed. Fine, I’ll buy that. Yes, the speed is slow and ponderous and feels lethargic. But if you’re going to speed it up, something needs to go. And it’ll probably be damage.
2. There’s a good reason Guardians don’t have easy access to Fury, which increases attack speed. This Hammer is why.
3. I really think the community is not giving this weapon a chance at all yet. We (understandably) get turned off by the slow attack speed, and then immediately dismiss it as useless, not viable, garbage, strictly inferior to Greatsword, or whatever other angry hyperbole we pull out of our readily available handy bag of forum hyperboles.
   1. And for that reason, if we give Hammer yet another buff before the community actually works on figuring the weapon out (seriously, how many of you used it in a handful of PVP matches and maybe some leveling and a dungeon and just tossed it?) developing strategies for its use, exploring synergies and traits…then, you know what? Once someone figures out how to actually use this weapon to its full potential, it’s going to need a nerf.

TLDR: Hammer is spectacularly powerful in the right hands, but you need to learn to account for and play with the slow third attack in the auto-attack. Don’t just toss it aside and dismiss it as inviable. Try it. Experiment. ANet is not going to listen to angry calls to buff/nerf a weapon without lots of evidence and lots of data.

Edit: P.S, Brutaly: Yes, I know most of what I said is a direct reiteration of exactly what you said. I just want to echo your sentiments because I agree with them entirely. Also, you guys really need to look into using Cleansing Bolts, which you can do pretty routinely with Greatsword/Hammer.

I see a lot of conjectures and experience here that seem to be only feelings, no actual data.
Measuring the damage output of the Hammer, I found it to be one of the lowest damaging weapons of the Guardian. Doesn’t matter that you hit like a truck on 1 strike, it does matter than you can’t do it fast enough. And I’m not even talking about the target dodging it. 1 handed sword, scepter and GS all have better damage output.

I don’t think OP is right about making the Hammer faster would break the 1-1-1-2 combo, can’t really see why it would. Symbol is created as the 3rd #1 strike hits, so you have plenty of time to hit #2.

What bothers me from #1 chain is not only the ridiculously slow speed on the 3rd hit, but also the fact that it creates a symbol of protection.
I think it would be much better if it gave the Guardian (and maybe nearby allies) protection directly from boon, not from symbol.
Why I say that? Simple. Try to coordinate with other classes for cross-class combos, and you’ll see that the symbols you create actually interfere a lot with #2 comboing with other fields.

skill #4 is a very situational skill and, aside from sPvP, I find it has way too few uses to even exist. Ofc, it’s very funny to kill somone by tossing them off a cliff, or when that one guy’s gonna stomp your ally and you banish him to the other side of the map… but when there’s more than a couple enemies around, the skill proves to be almost useless. Not only you’re using a melee weapon, but Guardians are NOT a mobile class, so most of the time you want your enemy near you, not far.

skill #5 is also very useful in sPvP but lacking in every other aspect of the game. And the fact that stability denies the skill completely just makes it even more lackluster.

the Hammer is not in a good place. Not at all.

Tracker Wolf,

You bring up some excellent counterpoints that have me thinking hard over this issue. I have a few responses for you.

I see a lot of conjectures and experience here that seem to be only feelings, no actual data.
Measuring the damage output of the Hammer, I found it to be one of the lowest damaging weapons of the Guardian. Doesn’t matter that you hit like a truck on 1 strike, it does matter than you can’t do it fast enough. And I’m not even talking about the target dodging it. 1 handed sword, scepter and GS all have better damage output.

Are we talking damage per second? Hammers actually have a pretty high upper limit on the damage they do, in order to off-set the long swing time. High-damage, slow-speed weapons are usually balanced to keep up with low-mid damage weapons with a higher swing speed.

I have no doubt that Sword is more raw damage, especially with the way it synergizes with Virtue of Justice and Torch, but whether sword deals more single target or small area damage is not relevant. The question is not whether Hammer deals more damage than Sword (which it doesn’t) or Scepter (which it probably does). It’s whether Hammer deals enough damage. And I think it deals a bit more than that. It just comes slow.

Second, spike damage and sustained damage are two different things. Hammer has solid spike opportunities because of the followup between Chain 3 and Attack 2. Sword is probably a superior spike weapon on a single target in terms of raw number, but again, you have to look at the other benefits Hammer provides. Which are considerable—especially Symbol of Protection.

I think it would be much better if it gave the Guardian (and maybe nearby allies) protection directly from boon, not from symbol.

If we do that, then Guardians lose one symbol. The Symbol of Protection would have to be moved somewhere else, either in a different slot on Hammer or a different weapon altogether. I’m open to this idea, but you have to consider that it’s a pretty big change for Hammer. Hammer would also lose a great deal of synergy with Symbol traits.

Why I say that? Simple. Try to coordinate with other classes for cross-class combos, and you’ll see that the symbols you create actually interfere a lot with #2 comboing with other fields.

So coordinate better. I don’t mean to be dismissive, but you can’t really claim that you’re coordinating with other classes for combos, but then getting constant interference from Symbol of Protection.

Symbol of Protection actually has a pretty small radius and doesn’t last that long. Your argument for getting rid of the symbol is because it overlaps. But overlapping combo fields is just a reality of playing this game, and it’s something you need to learn to either work with or work around.

If you’re going to coordinate with your allies—which you should—then you have to take Symbol of Protection into consideration and find a way to either work with it or around it. If you’re not coordinating, then yes, random overlap is a problem.

For anyone wondering, if you have two combo fields, a combo finisher will always prioritize the first combo field over the second.

skill #4 is a very situational skill and, aside from sPvP, I find it has way too few uses to even exist.

Most weapons have at least one situational skill. That’s the point. Remember that the Blowout effect is control. It’s an effective interrupt, and an enemy scrambling to get up off their feet is an enemy that isn’t hurting anything. I’ve used #4 to good effect by knocking runaway enemies off my squishies.

By the way, Guardians are mobile. Hammer isn’t mobile. Hammer #4 + Sword #2 is a wonderful followup. So is Hammer #4 + Leap of Faith.

skill #5 is also very useful in sPvP but lacking in every other aspect of the game. And the fact that stability denies the skill completely just makes it even more lackluster.

Stability is a pretty decent counter to the knockdown, but it’s not like stability is a constant. #5 having one counter doesn’t make it lackluster—it just means it has one counter. Skill #5 has use in PVP. It’s a versatile control tool, but it needs to be used intelligently.

the Hammer is not in a good place. Not at all.

Most of the weaknesses you’ve illustrated can and should be covered by weapon switching. We should never just be using Hammer. We have two weapons. Most discussions of a weapon should include what you pair that weapon with.

Some damage numbers:

Mighty Blow: 647/4 = 161.75 DPS
Whirling Wrath: 1251/8 = 156.375 DPS

Hammer ‘1’: (296+333+370+740)*.75 = 1304.25 for 2.1s
Greatsword ‘1’: (296+296+443) = 1035 for 2.1s

The standard ‘1’ attack is .7s, while Symbol of Protection is 1.4s, making the Hammer chain .7s longer than the Greatsword (why I multiplied by .75 for a comparison)

HOW TO IMPROVE THE HAMMER CHAIN:

Currently, (assuming you have two-handed mastery) you get a full ‘1’ chain, then a Mighty Blow right after the first ‘1’ of your next chain.

If you change the ‘1’ chain to 2.1 seconds (the standard chain duration), then the traited duration of Symbol of Protection will extend to 3s, 150% that of the chain itself, making the Hammer overpowered with traits. Without the extended trait, you would already have 100% duration of Symbol of Protection as well. Yes you would basically be able to get in 2 chains before Mighty Blow cools down, but the chain would end up broken.

If you change the ‘1’ chain to 2.45 seconds (a slight decrease in length), then it’s in the same boat as the above except worse. For one, you wouldn’t have 100% duration on Protection without the trait, and with the trait it would become overpowered. You don’t get two full ‘1’ chains in before Mighty Blow cools down. In fact, you have to wait .7s after Mighty Blow is off cooldown to be able to make a combo.

To fix either of the above changes to the ‘1’ chain duration, you would have to either:

1.) Significantly reduce the effect of the Honor Trait that increases symbol duration (in the case of the 2.1s change, you would have to make the trait NOT affect the Hammer).

2.) Significantly reduce the normal duration of Symbol of Protection. In the case of the 2.1s chain, that would be reducing the Symbol duration to just 1s.

Conclusion:

Basically, if you want to change the ‘1’ chain while keeping the weapon intact, you would have to reduce the ‘1’ chain to 2.1s, change the Symbol of Protection to a base 1s duration, and then scale the damage of the Symbol down to match it’s current 1304DPS.

I might be in favor of that, but I would have to play with it first.

I see a lot of conjectures and experience here that seem to be only feelings, no actual data.
Measuring the damage output of the Hammer, I found it to be one of the lowest damaging weapons of the Guardian.

Some fresh player made a comparison about the damage of each weapon’s auto attack; Guardian’s hammer surpasses every other profession/weapon combination:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/63335-elementalist-vs-ranger-comparison/#entry1914453

DesertRose,
that is a very useful link.
it presents a different result than the tests I’ve made personally. I will assume made some mistake and will test again to see how it compares with the link you presented.

Eveningstar,
the first part of your response seems to be in line with the link DesertRose posted. Again, I will assume I did something wrong and am wrong on the matter.

For the second part, I personally dislike the whole symbol mechanic on the Guardian and, along with a small part of the community, have been arguing against it for months now. It is a matter of personal preference., I guess.
I have been very frustrated in the past with my symbols overlaping with my team`s fields, either making me waste a dodge in order to avoid my own symbol or messing up the timing on hard-to-pull-off combos (like with small fields that last only a few seconds, like the elementalist’s geysers). I don’t expect you to agree with me, but I think you might understand where I am coming from. In the end, I did worked around it: I rolled a Warrior, and have absolutely no problems pulling of quick combos in a pinch with my hammer now.

As for the last, about skills #4 and #5: I totally agree with you, they are supposed to be situational. I still do think that they lose a lot of their effectiveness outside of sPvP.
If #4 could hit more than one enemy (say maximum of 3?), then it would open up a lot of possibilities in larger fights. Maybe even making the cooldown higher, I wouldn’t mind that. I just find that it being single-target makes it lose much of its usefulness.
As for #5… the casting time makes it very hard to trap anyone with half a brain inside it, so its better used as a defensive skill, to prevent people from entering an area. Problem is, when you’re doing PvE or WvW, aside from the couple chokepoints, you really don’t prevent people from moving at all. Makes it next to useless, in my opinion. In sPvP, it is very useful to deny a capture point. It would be hard to buff this without messing sPvP balance, I do think so.

As for mobility goes, I find the Guardian very lacking. I supposed it’s intended, after all it is very though to kill when played by a competent player. In WvW the Guardian’s lack of mobility really shows, though. I’ve had 1×3 fights where I had to watch the one remaining enemy leave and could do nothing to stop him as we have limited access to swiftness. Except if you equip a Staff, but then I’d call you crazy

To end this,
I do agree with you that weaknesses should be covered by weapon switching (andkitten I would kill for a weapon-switch-redution on the Guardian), but we cannot let that cloud our judgement as whether or not a weapon is balanced.

TL;DR:
It seems likely that I am wrong about hammer’s damage.
I still don’t like symbols
I think #4 and #5 could use a buff. Namely more targets for #4 and cast-as-you-move for #5.

PS: I tip my hat to you, Eveningstar. It’s not every day that one can discuss like that and not turn things into a flamewar. I feel like this discussion is actually going somewhere. Cheers.

edit: I just figured out my mistake while testing. will redo the tests and see how they compare with the french test.

just wanted to commend you guys on this thread. i do too feel it was a great read, seeing multiple sides of the story! and able to see where everyone’s coming from (cause we’re keeping our logic and making our points without taking things too personally).

i myself am a huge fan of the hammer and the slow casting doesn’t bug me either. i feel the protection it offers as well as the opportunity to self-combo is massive! though people around me playing don’t seem to notice, but i wouldn’t give it up for anything.

that being said though, all parties here have brought up great points. wish i had more expertise to contribute. until then, keep this going! some great stuff here.

@Eveningstar
Thx for a much better sumup then mine. I think it covers it.

@Tracker wolf
You say that the hammer isnt a in a good place, might it be that there is more depth in the weapon then you have discovered? There are a abunch of people that use it in tournements and are doing great with it and there are also casual players that would disagree with you.

Might it be that it doesnt work with your playstyle or your preferences? I know this was my issue with the hammer and as soon as i activiely chose to understand the weapon and didnt try to make something out of it that its not, it started do wonders for me.

@Alarox
Thx for posting that, its pretty much sums up why the hammer is in very good shape and its mainly peronal preference that keeps people from exploiting the full power of the weapon.

Your conclusion is spot on, i could live with that change but i fear it would be to fast and spammy. Imo, personal preference but still, one of the things that make the hammer fun is the sluggish way it behaves, its a godkittenhammer and it weighs like 30 kilos. If its to fast i would totally loose the immersion.

An other way to go is to increase the rewards (people tend to act on rewards) in the third step of the chain. Why not make it a true aoe and people might feel they get rewarded?