Guild Wars 2

ShadowbaneX.6273:

call me whatever, most people go by sbx…and yes, that’s exactly my point.

It’s extremely difficult all those things, to the point where it could well be considered a drain on otherwise needed resources, just to calculate rewards. “Not interested”? Hardly. Just not feasible to do with the time they had, or even impossible. If you have trouble telling how well you’re doing, how do you set up an algorithm to determine how to reward players? It’s much simpler to go by the current method, even if there are some gaps & holes in the system.

That’s strange because I seem to remember gaining contribution just fine in WAR (the most recent MMO with large scale PVP like this that i’ve played) when I ran my support builds. I really don’t thin it was a matter of difficulty, it was a matter of a choice they made. A choice that, to me, is completely ridiculous. To each their own I guess. Like I’ve said in other threads, as soon as I see a dev post stating they have no plans to change the system I’ll respec my guardian into a pure damage build and tag everything I can to maximize my rewards, since that is what they want us to do.

drwookie: I understand completely. Coming from someone who completely loves pure support in any game (my favorite achievement I ever got was “First Do No Harm” on Team Fortress 2, rewarding you for not killing people at all, and still being top player).
It’s just something Guild Wars 2 seems to not cater to. Support or Control are things you do in addition to damage. That being said, I think you can do damage around 50% of the time and still get gold (at least in Dynamic Events).
And I haven’t played WAR, so I don’t know how support works, but in WoW Discipline Priests got hated for a long time because their absorbs didn’t show up on any meters/combat log. With Guild Wars 2 support, it might have a similar issue. Maybe Arenanet doesn’t have a system handy for calculating support rewards, and even if they do they can only check healing done and boons given (and maybe successfully applied non-damage conditions). This still leaves out: combo fields, combo finishers, well places Lines and Circles of Warding, Shield of Absorption…
And then you’d need to be able to compare all that with the damage and support of other players.

Well, to each their own. For me, I’ll assume that there’s a reason behind their decision, rather than assuming they’re sitting there twirling their mustaches saying “bwahahahaha! No one likes support! Let’s make sure they get practically no rewards for doing events!” (queue the maniacle laughter scene from Austin Powers)

Anet’s done a heck of a lot to make it so that people can play the game they want. If there’s a small hole when it comes to dishing out rewards for events, I’m going to assume that there’s a reason for things being this way.

The idea that people should be forced to buy seige weapons and have enough people around with enough supplies to build it is silly. Yes clearly they are an important part of WvW but if that’s the only viable ranged option for a Guardian to get enough XP, Karma, and badges than that’s a problem. That’s a lot of work that other classes don’t have to do if they don’t want to.

On the subject of giving credit for support, here’s how you do it – you give the player credit for actions taken by the people they are supporting. That is how other games have done it and it works well. You don’t measure how much healing or buffing the Guardian is doing because like you said – people will take advantage and do nothing. Force the players to support people that are actually accomplishing something and give the Guardian a small portion of the XP, Karma, and Kill credit for what that person is doing. I say a small portion because if you apply protection and regeneration on 10 people near you, that’s a lot of “assisting”.

Malpractice.7850:

3) I tank 5-15 people without dying. L2properly use your invuln ult, Shouts, wall of reflection, #5 shield, #2 hammer, #2 staff…

This is a classic case of QQ from a noob, from what im seeing.
If youd like me to fraps, i will. Guardian is fine.

Youre not.

These are the kinds of posts I love. Sure, you go ahead and film yourself tanking your 15 people in WvW – all you’ve done is tanked 15 people who don’t know what they are doing. I betcha two skilled lvl 80 rangers in decent gear will eat your lunch and own you like an all day sucker.

If you are spec’d for survivability, that’s fine. Your damage output is going to suck. Put that sheild on with the long recharge and block you a few arrows. Put on your staff and float around with a few heals and some crowd control. Remove a few conditions. You still aren’t going to get the job done unless you’ve got a great team behind you doing the dps.

If you want to say that guardian survivability in WvW is good, then that’s fine. I can build that way too – priss around with my scepter like a princess. But while everyone else is racking up tokens and karma, you’re not getting rewarded for much. That’s the issue. When a warrior puts on a ranged weapon, his options are no where near as limited as the guardian. When the casters and other support staff put on a ranged weapon, they’ve got mass dps at their disposal. More kills = more tokens, more karma, more rewards.

@ Ynna.8769
“Our lowest HP pool is mitigated by our innate defenses.”

AHAHAHAH

We have the same armor as every other class, except that we have HALF the hp of a necro or a warrior (both can be ranged, the first with pets and the second with heavy armor) and 50% less hp then a ranger (that doesn’t need damage mitigation, since it can be ranged and has 2 pets to attack from INFINITE distance).

We have the same hp and def as a thief or an elementalist, but we can’t be ranged and we don’t get any additional buff from another guardian, since defensive buffs and burning do not stack.

Meaning in a group we are extremely useful as buffers/supporters but, given the buffs to others, we are weak as tank and as damage dealers.
Meaning we are USELESS in castle siege unless we don’t buff (that in this game IS NOT rewarded).
Meaning we are just levelup machines but we can’t enjoy endgame.

Meaning that a huge guardian with heavy armor, impressive healing abilities and heavy armor has the same hp of a thief and half or a necro (but no minions or pets).

And, you know what? Even with everlasting spiritual weapons and 50% more hp our guardian is still weaker then a ranger in pvp, since we have no ranged weapons (scepter ahahah, compare scepter autoattack on guardian with every other ranged auto attacks in the game).

They simply nerfed guardian too much.

Kidel.2057:

@ Ynna
“Our lowest HP pool is mitigated by our innate defenses.”

AHAHAHAH

In most situations, my statements holds true. A WvWvW zerg is inherently unbalanced. You could be a Vitality based Warrior and still die from something stupid.

I did not claim that Guardians didn’t have any problems. At all. I try to acknowledge problems, even if I’m not experiencing them myself. Guardians have problems in WvWvW.
Our healthpool isn’t a problem.

While I agree with you that guardian’s problem in WvW is the lack of ranged options and the lack of cripple, and not the lack of HP (that is the main problem in party istances, where guardians are pidgeonholed in support roles), I still laugh at your sentence, that shows you have almost no knowledge about what the other classes can do.

Guardians do not have enough defense to mitigate their HP lack.
With the same set of armor we have about 200 more armor stat compared to a necro (light armor) and HALF his/her HP, and also no death shroud (so we can say that necro has more than 3 times the hp of a guardian).

The damage any class can sustain, excluding heals, that are pretty much the same (if not more on the necro, since it can get infinite death shroud) is given by hp*armor.

It’s not hard to realize that to have the same result of a necro (again, light armor, lol) it should have 3 times less def (and with the correct build and 4 minions, a necro can have even more def thena guardian).

I don’t need to talk about Warrirs, right?

Our thief-like hp pool is not mitigated by anything. We have way less damage mitigation then some other classes, while having the lowest hp in the game.
And, LOL, we are the only class in the game with no ranged option.

You know what mitigates low health? Ranged attacks. I have a ranger on my second character slot. EVERY enemy is close to death before it can come close to me. I don’t even need to upgrade my armor. And, you know what? A ranger has 50% more hp then a guardian.

Guardian doesn’t need a powerup, it needs a FIX. They gave us 100% les hp in exchange of an aoe aegis every 30 seconds, ahahah.

Kidel.2057:

Guardian doesn’t need a powerup, it needs a FIX.

I’m going to keep it short, because it’s late and I’m ill and tired:
“Guardians are not broken and you should stop pretending they are.”

Guardians have flaws, yes. But no to the point that they’re completely unplayable (like you’re pretending they are). There’s a reason that Guardians are more feared in sPvP than Necromancers, and it’s not our HP-pool.

Not everyone cares about sPvP, I certainly dont because I cannot use my equipment there and instead have to use some stupid preset items there and have less skills to choose from.

They are not unplayable in solo pve or not organized pve groups.

But they are pidgeonholed in support roles in istances and wvw.

And while in istances I can deal with it, in WvW that’s simply unfair, because we get NO rewards from simply buffing. You have to deal damage in this game to get the loot, and that’s almost impossible without a ranged weapon atm.

So fix guardian or fix WvW.
(well, fixing guardian is required according to what anet said about gw2: “any class can do any role”)

To fix guardian in istanced pve adding more traits like altruistinc healing (or make it 3 times more effective) would be enought to at least allow the guardian to be a tank on the same level of any warrior/necro.

In WvW i use a Retaliation – Aegis build. Honor and Virtue are my main traits, and I only add 10 to Valor for extra defence. For Weps i use – mace and focus (shield buffs) / sword and shield. For utility skills i use – CoP (really important to use when people try to stun you) ‘Save yourselves’ (adding extra buffs) and WoR (majority of wvw players use range attacks, WoR slows these players down)
I am always in the front lines spamming all my sheild buffs, and act as a distraction.
When defending a wall, I always jump in front of the wall being attacked and use WoR. Its funny seeing the other team getkitten off when i do that. I find it is a good way to protect the wall too.

Even though a Guardian has no effective range abilities, you can be more creative and think of other ways to make good use of its skills.

I use save yourself and cop too. I believe every level 80 guardian use those 2 skills, lol.

They do not help you in castle siege, while Wall of Reflection has 40 seconds of cooldown (another must for WvW if you want to do at least something). I’d need Master of Consecrations to make it effective, but it would destroy my build (I can’t change it just for 1 skill I’d only use in wvw)

Is too much asking for a ranged weapon while every other class in the game has 1 (+ crippling skills that guardian doesn’t have)?
Also, am I wrong or we are the only class with useless elite skills? I’m usually cornered into mistfirewolf/hounds, or tome of courage (maybe useful, but healing gives no loot in this game)

You can reduce the cool down of WoR; there is a trait that reduces cooldowns for consecrations. I actually do find it useful in castle sieges – i have managed to get people to kill themselves because of my Wall of reflection. When using it, you need to have good timing.

When people spam damage on the gate, if you can get a wall of reflection up in front of the gate, it’s really funny to watch.

Malediktus.9250:

Not everyone cares about sPvP, I certainly don’t because I cannot use my equipment there and instead have to use some stupid preset items there and have less skills to choose from.

I can certainly understand not caring about sPvP. Guild Wars 2 is the first game where PvP is a major draw for me.
I don’t know what you mean by “use some stupid preset items [and] have less skills to choose from”. You know you can change your gear (both armor and weapons) and apart from the racial skills, all the skills are the same as in PvE.

Kidel.2057:

How does the 6th effect of Superior Rune of the Dolyak work?
Is it infinite regen or just “30 seconds every 20 minutes” or something like that?
Because the wiki is not clear about that.

You get 30 hp per second. It’s not regeneration, nothing’s listed. It’s just as if you’ve got a second passive VoR effect that gives you 30 hp.

staff/scepter/torch/virtues/consecrations. wards and consecrations are game-changers. people, please dont try to “heal”. try to prevent damage, cleanse conditions, or boon your mates.

nerva.7940:

Staff/Scepter/Torch/Virtues/Consecrations. Wards and Consecrations are game-changers. people, please don’t try to “heal”. Try to prevent damage, cleanse conditions, or boon your mates.

Where did you get the idea that people were trying to just heal? Most people here know what support is. And it doesn’t matter how varied you do it, the end-reward is the same.

I have 3428 kills and 616 badges of honor in WvW. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the Guardian and its a monster in WvW. It can win in 1v1 against any class in the game and it can still be very useful during sieges. I’ve come out on top in a few 2v1 situations and even in a 3v1 situation (screenshot). How many other classes can boast that?

I’m not an awesome player by any stretch so that means anyone else can do the same things I have done.

<3 the Guardian.

Carsormyr, I don’t think anyone is claiming that Guardians are bad in 1v1 or even 1v2. (Probably someone is, but that’s not the point.)
In small fights, Guardians are amazing. But in zergs and sieges, we really can’t do that much. In melee you get killed if you’re not playing smart and are lucky. At range our playstyle isn’t interesting and not very effective.
So, do tell (genuine inquiry) how Guardians can be very effective in sieges. (And with very effective I mean both actual effectiveness in defeating the enemy and getting proper rewards for it.)

Ynna.8769:

Carsormyr, I don’t think anyone is claiming that Guardians are bad in 1v1 or even 1v2. (Probably someone is, but that’s not the point.)
In small fights, Guardians are amazing. But in zergs and sieges, we really can’t do that much. In melee you get killed if you’re not playing smart and are lucky. At range our playstyle isn’t interesting and not very effective.
So, do tell (genuine inquiry) how Guardians can be very effective in sieges. (And with very effective I mean both actual effectiveness in defeating the enemy and getting proper rewards for it.)

Wall of Reflection to bounce back projectiles to enemies on walls. Using the scepter #2 does decent damage (4k for me). The scepters slow auto attack actually has an advantage believe it or not. In that all the orbs tend to hit very close together and can cause some serious damage before the person reacts. Admittedly you do have to be in the right spot, which is a pain.

But obviously in sieges you will take on more support responsibilities because that’s what were best at. Providing buffs, Healing and protection, while dealing damage in between. In sieges I always get gold in contribution and not to mention downing more than my share of enemies.

I think people get a little too focused on what others are doing instead of what they can be doing.

Ynna.8769:

Kidel.2057:

Guardian doesn’t need a powerup, it needs a FIX.

I’m going to keep it short, because it’s late and I’m wrong:
“Guardians are not broken and you should stop pretending they are.”

Fixed it for you and you are wrong. Wrong.

Svarty.8019:

Fixed it for you and you are wrong. Wrong.

Guardians are only at a severe disadvantage in one area of the game and that is big WvWvW battles. That does not mean the profession is broken.
A profession can has troubles without being broken.

Ynna.8769:

A profession can has troubles without being broken.

“Troubles”? Terming the issue differently doesn’t alter the issue.

I have no idea what you guys are talking about saying guardians are week in wvwvw. With my build i feel like iam unstopable, it is impoable to keep a condition on me and i have a 320 passive hot on at all times from my virtue. i dont even find it nesesary to have ranged cause i can be focused and still be ok. ill link my build below and i use a full clerics gear for power tuff and healing. also sup runes of the soldier to make all my shouts remove conditions. and anyone next to me gets my hot also. when i needd to i do switch my weps around but most of the time i just have fun with gs and hammer.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#Mccz0M9MmvNGcmRTbo9MaxxVMsbMsa

Carsormyr, can you post your build?

nalenb.1425:

Carsormyr, can you post your build?

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#Mmcz0mM0mRTbomRTboGx0G0MkzMqzs

Svarty.8019:

Ynna.8769:

A profession can have troubles without being broken.

“Troubles”? Terming the issue differently doesn’t alter the issue.

Broken means: unplayable. Fundamental flaws that make it impossible to do well with a profession. Guardians only have real issues with big WvWvW fights. In all other things they can perform well (maybe not perfectly) enough to succeed and be rewarded. Saying we are broken is meaningless rhetoric, used because you’re emotional about the issue, or because you want others to be.

I simply don’t understand people who say Guardians are weak in WvW. I play a Guardian, and I’ve only lost once 1v1 to a very well-played Mesmer, and can generally take 2v1 and sometimes even higher quite well, depending on who I’m facing.

Primary weapon for DPS is Hammer, which, with Judge’s Intervention allows you to more or less lock down a single target long enough to ruin their day. Judge up, hit them with Zealot’s Embrace, follow up with Mighty Blow for some good solid damage, then Ring of Warding to keep them in place while you get off a good chain. By this time most squishy classes are dead or close to it, and even Warriors are starting to get worried. When the ring expires, hit them with Banish (also very good for launching people off of walls/cliffs, as well as knocking people off of downed enemies trying to heal them) for the knockdown, dodge up (which heals with the trait), and finish them.

Using an almost-full set of Whispering armor from Orr, still working on upgrading my accessories to Exotic though. Amulet’s still a level 62 green, for shame… but right now I have over 3k armor and 20k health which makes me very hard to take down. Power’s only about 2k with a 28% crit chance currently, so DPS isn’t bad but is more than made up for in tankability.

Where I’ve found I really excel is gate breaches, either defending or attacking. When defending, pull out your staff and Line of Warding the breach. The whole enemy zerg will rush in, fall down go boom, and by then you’ll be in swinging with your hammer hitting multiple foes and causing much fire while the people behind you spam AoEs. Once LoW drops, throw down Ring of Warding. This way you’ve got pretty much the whole enemy force all occupying the same narrow space for over 10 seconds getting clobbered. It’ll be even more effective when they fix the skills so you can’t dodge through them, but most people either don’t know about that or don’t notice them through the massive amount of particle effects that are covering everything.

Finally, Guardians, in my experience, make the very best siege operators. I’ve had 20-30 enemies trying to take me down on a cannon and not get me below half health. Rams, even better.

If you’re attacking while not operating a ram/etc, staff’s decent. Not going to be doing major DPS, but the healing and might from Empower helps. Can do some minor damage to people on walls/oil/cannons with Orb and SoS. I’ll usually be on the gate bashing it with my hammer, though. This does absolutely negligible damage to the gate, but it helps keep people trying to repair it back. Once the gate’s down though, you’ll be the first in. I pop Judge’s to get into the enemy back line, cause a little confusion and generally soak up damage while friendly squishies rush in. Gold every time.

Anyway, sorry for the novel. Still working on the build and upgrading gear, but so far I’ve been extremely effective. tl;dr: Max the crap out of toughness and vit and hit people with a hammer.

That was a good read Revenant, but it still doesn’t address the issue that going into a support build, actually thinking about some form of tactics and having a bit of planning and role management, essentially kittens the supporters/buffers/healers.

It’s a massive oversight imo, for a game that encourages team play and the way it’s setup it seems pretty ludicrous to me that they didn’t for see this, I just hope a fix is in the works.

I think you people are seriously underestimating the power of the staff.

Yeah, if you want to be dumb and aoe the top of the wall, be dumb, but know, you’re doing it wrong, for that get an elementalist.

Give might to your team. they will apreciate it. Use line of warding to get those guys that came out of the wall and try to go in a hard time when trying to get in. ok skill 2 is useless. skill 1 is great when siegin, i will say no more about skill 1, figure it out.

i use no scepter, again, “nuking” top of wall with smite? no ty. i would use scepter if the autoaattack was better, unfortunatelly it is not.

If you feel you are lacking in defending a tower then take an arrow cart, wich is much better than any skill any class has, i personally feel guardian is not lacking on keep defense as bad as people think.

For field fights (not zergs, those are silly) guardian has a great range of choices that can make you rack up some kills, for instance that guy above with the GS has a great time, as for me, i hate GS in wvw, and i have my fair share of kills.

Somebody on these forums mentioned Crossbows, and I so want that now. Please, crossbows Anet, I beg you.

@Blades: If you play like that you’re hardly getting rewarded. It’s fun and probably effective, but you get Bronze at best.

Ynna.8769:

Svarty.8019:

Ynna.8769:

A profession can have troubles without being broken.

“Troubles”? Terming the issue differently doesn’t alter the issue.

Broken means: unplayable. Fundamental flaws that make it impossible to do well with a profession.

By that definition no class has ever been broken in any game, really, despite all the moaning.

Guardians only have real issues with big WvWvW fights.

Can we compromise with, “broken in WvWvW”?

Works for me. Broken makes it sound like it’s completely useless, which is only somewhat true in WvWvW.

@Ynna: I go full support in wvw and pretty much always get gold at keep sieges. I don’t know what the criteria are (damage to commander?), but I’ve never felt underrewarded.

And maybe I’m delusional, but having seen what Eles and Rangers can do to defenders on the walls…I’m not that jealous. They do a lot of damage which amounts to nothing. Even if defenders get downed, they’re back up in no time, and there’s not much actual effect for the outcome of the siege, in comparison to the people on siege equipment.

A great support Guardian, though, can keep siege equipment and operators alive, and keep a group from having to pull back from a keep. That can be the difference between victory and defeat…and you only get karma for winning.

So, basically, Guardians shouldn’t focus on the one thing they do badly, particularly when it is such an easy weakness to overcome. We can buy blueprints and become awesome in sieges; no one else can buy anything that makes them have the Guardian’s skills and survivability.

1. no real ranged option
2. no real aoe other than our elite skills, which are short duration long CD
3. support is limited, yes we have a couple of abilities, but using a support skill every 20+ seconds is not my idea of engaging gameplay/.
4. Really slow, watching the zerg disappear ahead of you with their passive movement speed increases or watching that enemy you did almost kill run away laughing as we shuffle after them is frustrating
5. Low health and low survival in aoe heavy melee combat.

Those are just some of the reasons Guardians are not fun in WvWvW.

Carsormyr.3950:

I have 3428 kills and 616 badges of honor in WvW. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with the Guardian and its a monster in WvW. It can win in 1v1 against any class in the game and it can still be very useful during sieges. I’ve come out on top in a few 2v1 situations and even in a 3v1 situation (screenshot). How many other classes can boast that?

I’m not an awesome player by any stretch so that means anyone else can do the same things I have done.

<3 the Guardian.

how many other classes….mesmer, easily can take 2v1 and even 3v1 quite reliably. Warriors can do 2v1 due to high burst dmg, thiefs can also do it aswell due to burst.

One or two good guardians can make passing a bridge a living hell for even a zerg, and make raiding parties lethal. If you keep up the nigh-perma swiftness in a raiding party, you can outrun any zergs that are coming your way. If you cause an enemy’s zerg to break off to reclaim supply lines, you’ve just given your team a valuable edge. I was the only support guardian earlier today, and whenever I put up my walls, my entire team noticed and pushed forward. I think the only adjustment really needed to our skills atm is preventing AoE damage from penetrating our bubbles. Other than that, the guardian is a strong ally in a fight.

So really, I think guardians are best in raids or defending, of which the latter makes a lot of sense.

Great sword + sword/shield switching provides you with significant utility. Play it, get used to it. Win. Works great in both PvE and PvP.

@Ynna

no, i get golds, your level of participation in a siege is not measured by the number of times you hit the gate.

Also, i got a decent number of badges, because i also run a sword, and my traits are speced for sword.

i’ve just specced to ranger and within 4 evenings of playing i’ve got twice more badges of my guardian which i played from release.

Your build lookes fun, will test it some day

ElSdE.3215:

I have no idea what you guys are talking about saying guardians are week in wvwvw. With my build i feel like iam unstopable, it is impoable to keep a condition on me and i have a 320 passive hot on at all times from my virtue. i dont even find it nesesary to have ranged cause i can be focused and still be ok. ill link my build below and i use a full clerics gear for power tuff and healing. also sup runes of the soldier to make all my shouts remove conditions. and anyone next to me gets my hot also. when i needd to i do switch my weps around but most of the time i just have fun with gs and hammer.

http://www.guildhead.com/skill-calc#Mccz0M9MmvNGcmRTbo9MaxxVMsbMsa