Guild Wars 2

So, someone has to fix the forum bug, methinks?

Anyway, I can see the … concerns with GW being a bit “troublesome” in its initial state.
However, an “Elite” skill -arguably- should be pretty darn potent … heck, a lack of said potency is what makes many players have heated debates on their class forums.

Frankly, I’ve seen ideas in this thread that are probably better than most of what I could conjure up, mentally. With that in mind, I’d politely request that some form of pull be re-added to the skill. When I see the words “Gravity Well,” I immediately think that the caster’s effectively created a localized black hole. Ergo, pull is necessary.

Now, if the amount of pull was the biggest issue, then by all means lower it, but it needs to be there. But that’s just my opinion.

how about you atleast increase the radius and/or increase the damage on it now that it does’nt pull?

both those stats atm are, well, underwhelming…

How about instead of removing the pulls, you have a graduating radius? Start in 120 pull on first pulse, then 240 pull on the second with 360 pull on the third into float?
This gives a sense of centrality to the “event horizon” while limiting the effective targets hit? In pvp how often are all 5 other players going to be within 120 radius? (And if they are then shouldn’t they be vulnerable to be punished?)

Just my 2c idea

I was thinking one initial pull followed by chilled slow and weakness. No float or anything else.

Having tested GW in pvp, I can say it is a powerful skill IF people would stay inside of it for the complete duration. Float opens up a plethora of combos and dropping it on a contested point with your teammates is a nice way to relieve pressure from the enemy team. Dropping it on downed players is extremely handy in team fights where the stability and the incoming cc would force the enemy to disengage. With that being said, outside of those two points, GW does not perform better than other elite options. This is especially true now with Continuum Shift. Getting the float is near impossible. Overall GW forces people to disengage, but that’s it.

I agree that the original elite was kind of… op. But right now its too easy to get out of it and kind of pointles. Additionally it really lost the ‘gravity’ feel. Especially since no one gets caught in the float.

A better solution would have been:
First pulse: Pulls enemies inside & deal damage.
Second pulse: Immobilize & deal damage.
Third pulse: Float & deal damage.

Get rid of the stability: Didn’t suit the “gravity” part of the elite and its also a nerf.
Nerf cooldown to 180 sec.

Offers a lot more counterplay:
-Stability
-condi cleanse (getting rid of immobilize & dodge out)
-mobility skills like blink & lightning flash.
-Stunbreak.

Even if that would be too op, changing the immobilize to a chill would be a good thing too.

Please Anet consider buffing the skill with more CC to make it an actual reliable skill because right now its close to useless.

The crusade to nerf Chronomancer has already begun. This is the kind of thing that drives me to wonder why I play this game.

First off, I like the duality.

As for the offensive function, here’s my proposal:

• Pulse 1: Pull & float enemies
• Pulse 2: Repeat pull & float on enemies who haven’t escaped
• Pulse 3: Slam floating enemies who (still) haven’t escaped into the ground to inflict damage.

That’s two control pulses and one damage pulse, with a logical progression. Timing can be tinkered with as needed.

Now, for the stability, I suggest something a little more interactive:

• Allies who attack floating enemies gain stability.
  • Duration of stability, number of allies affected, and internal cooldown on the effect can be tweaked.

OR replace the stability. Each pulse would break stuns for allies in the skill radius.

Robert Gee.9246:

I’d like to provide a little context for this discussion as I think it’s important to understand what led us to change this skill in the first place. I’m going to avoid talking about my personal opinion here as I’d like all the feedback from this BWE to be as unbiased as possible.

We discovered pretty early in testing the following problems with the first version:

1. Stun breaks were pretty much useless against this unless they also gave stability because the pulls were so close together that you still couldn’t escape. The pulls were also so close together that you couldn’t even dodge roll between them if you got caught by one of them.
2. The full duration of the disable ended up being around 5 seconds total, which might be okay for a single target skill, but was pretty out of line for a skill that could hit 5 targets.
3. The skill had a lot of different things going on and was difficult to parse for those who saw it for the first time.

The first two factors in combination created a very oppressive skill which had a very limited number of response options. The third issue wasn’t as important as the first two, but was indicative of the skill being overly-complex and needing some simplification.

I hope that helps. I’m looking forward to reading your feedback on the Chronomancer from the BWE!

Im with Robert at this, old Gravity would made Mesmer, as old Rampage did with Warriors… Iwin button Not to mention we can use it twice…

Its far better now, if you proper setup Gravity(like Gravity+Tides), its game changing, its not easy, but its Mesmer, dont mention to be easy.

Only twist i would add its either:
-Make Float 3s
-Add real meaning to gravity, and make ppl in well move 50% slower
-Add Slow per puls

Dmg wise i think its okey, with bers and might it can make out 6/7k AoE dmg overal

Robert Gee.9246:

I’d like to provide a little context for this discussion as I think it’s important to understand what led us to change this skill in the first place. I’m going to avoid talking about my personal opinion here as I’d like all the feedback from this BWE to be as unbiased as possible.

We discovered pretty early in testing the following problems with the first version:

1. Stun breaks were pretty much useless against this unless they also gave stability because the pulls were so close together that you still couldn’t escape. The pulls were also so close together that you couldn’t even dodge roll between them if you got caught by one of them.
2. The full duration of the disable ended up being around 5 seconds total, which might be okay for a single target skill, but was pretty out of line for a skill that could hit 5 targets.
3. The skill had a lot of different things going on and was difficult to parse for those who saw it for the first time.

The first two factors in combination created a very oppressive skill which had a very limited number of response options. The third issue wasn’t as important as the first two, but was indicative of the skill being overly-complex and needing some simplification.

I hope that helps. I’m looking forward to reading your feedback on the Chronomancer from the BWE!

Just wondering, wouldn’t it be possible to make this well 1,5 sec longer and have a +0,5 sec between every pul to give the enemy some chance to escape?

And while I agree that the “original” Gravity Well seemed too overpowered in my eyes, i can’t help but feel that the current one is way too underpowered.

I’ve been thinking of a way to buff it up without making it too overpowered.

First pulse: Pull
Second pulse: Pull
Third pulse: 1 second knockdown & damage.

Removing stability. 180 sec cd.

Like you said, this skill had a lot of things going for it (damage, stability, tons of CC)

Like this it would still offer a lot of CC but no more stability & less damage.
It would still be hard to counter (but hey elites should have a big impact on a fight.)

3 sec CC would make it on par with the Revenant’s Jade Wind duration wise. But with a smaller radius & a long cooldown.

I don’t think the Stability part fits with the whole “gravity” theme.

Wells

From a PvP stand point they are generally a mixed bag. sPvP is fast moving action and wells don’t really fit this mode very well because of that.

(1) In general the cast time is a bit too long and does not feel fluid to use.

(2) They rarely hit for more than 1 pulse because casting takes too long, everyone and their mum seems to have easy access to copious amounts of swiftness/super speed/in-combat mobility (with a few class exceptions) and just move out of the well.

**Possible solutions: reduce cast time, increase AoE size, reduce the number of pulses to 3 and evenly distribute the damage and effects, increase damage per pulse, or if well is cast on caster the well moves with the caster (if not then it is static), add protection boon to all wells.

(3) The final pulse with the more powerful effect should be at the beginning not the end. The effect at the end only works in a few specific situations leading to a wasted well.

(4) The positive effects from a well that affect allies are more suited to bunkers or tanks, because as a mes you’ll be destroyed if you stay still for too long (i.e. in the well). Refer above for solutions.

(5) Wells are a bit difficult to see as the caster. Give better visibility to the caster, but keep it as it is for opposing players.

(6) We have all these fields but hardly any combo finishers on mes. The community have previously asked for a finisher on GS mind stab. This would be a good time to add this.

Well of Eternity

I won’t be replacing my normal heal with this. Standing in one spot to recover health is usually a death sentence or means I’m not travelling to a point. Mobile heals are necessary for mes, but static aren’t very good. There are 4 pulses, but you as the caster only heal for the first and last pulse (not sure if WAI), but not the 2 in the middle.

The healing amount doesn’t reflect the risk you take for standing in one spot, and the 2sec vigour it gives doesn’t really matter if you’re dead. I would say use a combination some of the following to improve skill: make the heal field mobile with caster if standing in the middle when cast (but keep ground targeting as an option), increase heal amount, increase aoe size, add protection and add stability for full duration of field. Not a good heal for 1v1 or 1v2, better if you are not being focused and can provide team support.

Well of Precogntion

Nice support skill, but could use improvement using recommendations from (2) above.

Well of recall

Is not as good as some of the other wells when not using chrono spec. Better when chrono spec’d as it is balanced around other sources of alacrity.

Well of calamity

Average damage. Better for PvE as you can manoeuvre mobs to stay in well. Has same issues as rest of wells. The cripple condition is would be nice if it wasn’t the worst condition in PvP – it can be mitigated in so many ways as to make it useless.

Well of action

A good well for quickness. Slow is not really noticeable for reasons mentioned above.

Elite Utility: Gravity well

Guys this is basically a calamity well with float on the end except with less damage. This is supposed to be an elite utility. I feel like this should have more pulses being an elite or more damage. A pity the pull has been removed; maybe have 1 pull for the first pulse and last pulse leaving the middle pulses without the pull effect. That adds plenty of counterplay. I like the float, it give you a letting breathing space, and at 2 secs is balanced.

Trait: All’s well that end well

Condition removal should be per pulse and not at the end for reasons cited earlier.

Wells in general

I think making wells glamour skills would be great for synergy with temporal enchanter. They were made for this trait. Make it so.

I like using wells, but there needs to be some adjustment so you can stay in a well with your foe otherwise most of the pulses go to waste (especially the final pulse), meaning it’s hard to justify having them in a utility slot. They are specifically good on point where tanky classes dominate, they can help you stay on point to stop a decap (currently not easy on mes), or take a point by making a bunker move out of the way.

I love the ideas of mesmer above me ^
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I cannot keep enemies in my wells, I really wish it would still pull enemies in since 99% (no kidding) of my wells are wasted.

I agree that wells are not great for PvP, but is that what they are for? I always got the impression that the main function of wells was PvE to give mesmer something to do in stacks. As it stands now a lot of our utilities are pretty situational. I know we have stuff like mantra of pain but that is a very time intensive skill. Wells seem like something to drop in PvE to group support/control mobs.

That said they should definitely see use in PvP but we already have a lot of good utilities for that

Slow should be replaced by either chill or stun. Slow is inadequate with wells. Also, the levitate doesn’t work against defiance. I found when applying it on the big vet karka in Southsun levitate doesn’t work. Levitate should have no counter if you are in the well when it times out.

Anyone had much luck with Focus 4 and Gravity Well?
I’ve had tons of love for Gravity Wellx2 with Conti Split.

I feel like Gravity Well needs something on drop, and then on finish. Like a single pull in at start, then lift up at end.

The idea of Wells is that they pulse the same effect (with Chronomancy Wells having an ending effect too). I don’t think Anet would be willing to let Gravity Well break the mold, so suggesting a pull or whatever on cast is unlikely to happen even if it is a good idea.

Embolism.8106:

The idea of Wells is that they pulse the same effect (with Chronomancy Wells having an ending effect too). I don’t think Anet would be willing to let Gravity Well break the mold, so suggesting a pull or whatever on cast is unlikely to happen even if it is a good idea.

Some wells break stun on cast and add 1 stab. That is not exactly the same but still a special effect on cast. And before chronomancer you could have said “wells pulse the same effect, so I don’t think Anet would be willing to let chronomancer wells break the mold by having a special effect at the end”.

Embolism.8106:

I know gameplay over aesthetics and all that, but the ticking clockface thing isn’t going to work if this is the case.

Actually it would work even better. Change the clockface to represent the actual duration of 6-8 seconds, this helps to visually indicate how much power has been built up and when the end-effect will trigger automatically.

Wells then become a very time-based skill where you have to decide when it’s best to use them. Trigger Gravity Well immediately for the CC, or let it tick longer to provide stability for your allies and a bonus effect based on how long you let it build up power.

By being able to call upon the end effect earlier you make effects like the Blur & Float actually meaningful since you can reliably time them rather than wasting them. It also provides more time for allies to move into the effect or enemies to get out. As it stands now the Wells are barely noticeable before they’re gone.

I would suggest retaining the pull but borrow the “Pull” implementation from Binding Blade from Guardian GS #5.

Right now this well is just a joke to be an elite … In PvE it’s extremly weak compared to TW, especially against all those breakbars where it literally has NO effect at all, and in PvP you can just “leave” the area.

The pull per pulse was important to provide a nice cc. The float looks nice but sometimes also very stupid and the physics are … well … crappy. :< Instead of damaging every pulse you could either remove it entirely or just replace the float with a final boom that only dazes.

How I would like Gravity Well:

• First tick on drop, pull in a 450 unit radius and apply cripple, no damage
• Second tick after 2s (increasing the total duration to 4s) pull in a 360 unit radius, no damage
• Third tick at the end (4s after deployment), pull in a 240 radius and apply heavy damage
• Back to 120s cooldown

Plenty of time to react between the pulses, you don’t necessarily need stability to get out (just time your dodge on second pulse and you’ll be out of the area of effect of the third). No hard CC at the end, but some damage.

Something like this I would consider taking over TW…

From my testing, I don’t think I will use the current form of Gravity Well.

The float effect is really fun to see.

For me, the radius is small, there’s nothing that keeps the opponent in place, and the damage is only okay.

Small testing note: I was trying the skill on some of the stone head dinosaurs in Verdant Brink. They appear to be immune to physical damage on frontal attacks. Gravity Well was inconsistent in terms of whether its damage landed on a stonehead inside the radius.

One thing to make it more fun to use:
There should be a big damage effect after the float just when they hit the ground again.
Like lifting them up in the sky and smashing them back on the ground! :o
I can’t be the only one who wants this!

Bump, for great justice.

I really think this ought to stay in sight of new forum goers. And also, I still think a gravity well without, well, a pull, is rather pointless.

At least call it a Gravity Inversion Well or something, alluding more to the floating.

Silverkey.2078:

Embolism.8106:

The idea of Wells is that they pulse the same effect (with Chronomancy Wells having an ending effect too). I don’t think Anet would be willing to let Gravity Well break the mold, so suggesting a pull or whatever on cast is unlikely to happen even if it is a good idea.

Some wells break stun on cast and add 1 stab.

I get your point but now I just want that well to pulse stunbreaks :O

Toeofdoom.6152:

I get your point but now I just want that well to pulse stunbreaks :O

That … wow … that’d be great actually ö.ö

Our prayers have been heard. The pull is back in action.

Robert Gee.9246:

Gravity well: Changed functionality. This well now pulls every pulse for a total of 3 pulls. The final pulse grants 5 stacks of stability to allies in the area.

• General sentiment from feedback was that the PULL was what was important to selling Gravity Well rather than the float. We’ve gone back to the earlier version where it does the standard 3 pulls but pulled out the ending stun to prevent kitten long AoE CC. I’m still a little concerned about how hard it is to stun break this thing but since it’s got a relatively long cast time and moderate area of effect I think it’s safe to try.

Source: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Chronomancer-Changes-for-Next-BWE/first#post5382713

as of now…the current version is a i win button….maybe the well pull for the first tick only. full duration is 2 much. However its 1 of the many issue that need to be fixed for choro great start

princode.2750:

as of now…the current version is a i win button….maybe the well pull for the first tick only. full duration is 2 much. However its 1 of the many issue that need to be fixed for choro great start

Getting a Guardian RoW on somoene is also an iwin unless they have stability or port. I don’t see the issue here. You want to make elite on par with a weapon skill?

If it still had the Float, maybe it’d be an “I Win” button. But with just the three Pulls, it’s not going to be OP unless you combo it with something else nasty. Which is good play that should be rewarded.

The radius of the well is still really tiny, too. It’s less than the distance of a dodge roll. And most classes have either movement skills that can get them out, or sources of Stability.

Worst case scenario, you don’t have a blink or stability… So you eat ~2500 damage. iZerker does more than that in a single spin.

I think Robert Gee forgets what type of skill this is – it’s an elite! Not a utility or weapon skill!

Elite skills are supposed to be game changers. Maybe ANet / Mr. Gee should think the other way around: Is it really fair to counter an 90 sec cd elite with just 1 stack stability and a simple dodge roll? I still think this skill is too weak. But the goal shouldn’t be a “stabi = useless / no stabi = freewin” skill. Lowering the cd to 60 will probably be the best solution.

Yeah but they gave up on the elite = game changer idea long ago.

I mean on my Mesmer, honestly? Fourth utility slot would be far superior. By far. The only “elite-ish” ability I have is mimic, and hey, that’s a utility! The rest feels like, well, utility skills.

Moa, Timewarp and Massinvis are all pretty elite-worthy, though.

Carighan.6758:

Yeah but they gave up on the elite = game changer idea long ago.

I mean on my Mesmer, honestly? Fourth utility slot would be far superior. By far. The only “elite-ish” ability I have is mimic, and hey, that’s a utility! The rest feels like, well, utility skills.

Moa is game changer, TW is a game changer, MI is a game changer….I do not even know what you are talking about.

StickerHappy.8052:

Moa is game changer, TW is a game changer, MI is a game changer….I do not even know what you are talking about.

At their respective CDs, they’re not.

That’s kinda my point. Currently, the elite skill’s power is balanced by the CD. To be “elite”, or to genuinely be a game changer, they would have to be intentionally stronger than other skills. They often are for a specific application, yes, but only if you ignore the cooldown. That is, if combat isn’t decided or there are more than 1 enemy, then the skill is no longer stronger and a fourth utility skill would probably provide more total power (imagine for example Mimic as a Mesmer on top of Blink, Feedback and Veil in WvW).
Sure, the moment I pop TW it’s very strong, but then I got 180s without it. That’s fairly balanced, for a utility skills.

Compare GW1 elites, which were usually flat out better than the basic skills. Shorter or no CDs, same CD but more raw power, secondary effect, etc. They weren’t meant to be 1-vs-1 balanced comparing a normal skill, they were elite after all. Likewise, pre-nerf Gravity Well actually felt like an elite skill. Something significantly stronger and significantly more impactful to the game (not just one specific encounter) than a normal skill.

That’s the part they gave up on. Sorry, bad at explaining this, isn’t my native language.

Sure, the moment I pop TW it’s very strong, but then I got 180s without it.

Eh, yes, that’s exactly what an elite skill is. Warriors for sure would like to have 24/7 Rampage, too, but that won’t happen.

But that’s my point, that’s hardly a “game changer” skill then. Anyhow, semantics. Wish we had actually powerful elite skills like first iteration Gravity Well.

Game changer skills shouldn’t be spammable. A long cd on a skill who changes the situation completly in your favor IS a game changer. It’s not a skill you should be able to pull in every encounter!

If you can spam your gamechanger skill, then it’s not actually changing the game is it?