And yet another Mesmer nerf
Can’t you guys see?
They changed all core mechanics. Even conditions from the bottom up.
Now is the time for Anet to experiment and change everything to be fun and engaging.
And of course, they will make everything overpowered. So that all traits are viable and interesting from the start.
From there on, they will nerf and shave each and every class and trait.
So why is mesmer being nerfed???
Because its kittening OP as kitten.
I main Mesmer, and I honestly had a better time when my class wasn’t as faceroll in a way that even you and everyones mom can play it.
But it just has to be OP right now, otherwise they would come with boring, and crappy traits that have to be buffed along the way.
For example: “Your trident does 8.5% more damage against amphibious animals”
Well good luck with that.
Nobody would use it, and Anet would have to invest resources in changing this trait from the bottom up. Or buff it slightly every couple of month, while it remains a boring trait.
Believe me, more nerfs inc. Some other class will be faceroll again maybe.
I just want to know why the Guardian ability: “Feel My Wrath!”: Grant fury for 10 seconds and quickness for 5 seconds to nearby allies. Cooldown: 30 seconds.
… hasn’t been nerfed yet? There seems to be a bug where shouts exceed the 5 player cap and when you have 6 Guardians in a WvW group, you get stacking/perm quickness. And try running into a group of Guardians who have perm swiftness spamming staff 1.
But reading the fixes and what Josh wrote, it’s pretty clear that they’re focusing solely on s/tPvP because of the absurd nerf to Chaotic Dampening and the monster nerf to PB. Grant it, PB needed it but the number change was just outrageous.
Josh and his team say no knee-jerk reactions because the patch has been out for a short period but they do the complete opposite when it comes to Mesmers.
I think we all have the right to vent our frustrations because we are one class that stands out where we get buffed through patches and then subsequently afterwards, get nerfed.
Stop treating this class and its players with such disrespect and carelessness.
I post from a phone so please excuse any references to ducks or any other auto corrections.
the problem is anet decision is by the below average community lvl. which affects all aspect of the game
example:
good thief in pvp versus good mesmer probably will be 50% for each even before the nerf as thief got power buff while mesmer also and with with condi mtd you could do some pressure to prevent the thief from spamming you to death.
while below average mesmer will hit f1-f4 to do massive stacks of torment while burning all his utilities for just one enemy thief kill while being killed by other enemy 1 sec later. so seeing 24 torment stacks is spooky but hardly the case in team fight (in average). thus both will qq mtd op and forget about the poor result in the pvp arena
now aftr the nerf good player must spam f1-f3 to do some 12 stacks to pressure the thief while the thief has more time to kill us as the condi pressure is low and the nerf afects the whole aspect of team fight which mean more mesmer moved to power build which will result (as we saw) in more power nerf
Told ya. They buffed us to make us happy and go preorder HoT. Give them 1-2 weeks and we’ll be back to … well yeah.
Like someone else said, lucky for me, I didn’t pre-order HoT.
I can do without Chronomancer if this is the balancing experience I have to look forward to.
I told you so Anet. You should have tested your stuffs before you give-out candies to greedy folks. They would have pre-order HoT if you do the balance right at launch, not giving too much, so no need to nerf any of them either, and they’d be as happy as when you released the OP version of it.
Human are born greedy, so if you let them expose to wealth, there’s no turning back anymore. They would not be able to endure poverty anymore after they taste the wealth first. You shouldn’t have spoiled them in the first place. Bad move Anet!
There’s nothing greedy about wanting fairness in the grand scheme of “balancing”. You sound utterly ridiculous. #shill
https://www.twitch.tv/thatcho
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
“The jealous are troublesome to others, but certainly a torment to themselves.”
Thanks for clearing that up Josh, hopefully you’ll take on board Fay’s recommendation of making chaotic dampening a 3% instead of 2%. Though if you wanna make it 4% that would be great too =D
As for everyone else, I know it’s really annoying getting something really great and then it being toned down or taken away. However it’s not helpful to rage at the devs, think from their point of view. This is a major patch, it changes so many things that it’s very hard to make it balanced and they’re really putting in the effort especially with all the forum posts.
Keep it polite, keep it constructive and keep thinking whether it really is too much for one thing. Power block being 17% reduction is a shave and most people think it was needed. Staff trait is over nerfed but Josh said its under review and could go up, make compelling reasons for it to be changed.
A red post of all the problematic traits etc in a post and asking for feedback stating they feel X trait needs toning down (or buffing slightly) I’m sure a lot of people would give helpful ideas in this forum, at least the regular posters would.
Told ya. They buffed us to make us happy and go preorder HoT. Give them 1-2 weeks and we’ll be back to … well yeah.
Like someone else said, lucky for me, I didn’t pre-order HoT.
I can do without Chronomancer if this is the balancing experience I have to look forward to.
I told you so Anet. You should have tested your stuffs before you give-out candies to greedy folks. They would have pre-order HoT if you do the balance right at launch, not giving too much, so no need to nerf any of them either, and they’d be as happy as when you released the OP version of it.
Human are born greedy, so if you let them expose to wealth, there’s no turning back anymore. They would not be able to endure poverty anymore after they taste the wealth first. You shouldn’t have spoiled them in the first place. Bad move Anet!
There’s nothing greedy about wanting fairness in the grand scheme of “balancing”. You sound utterly ridiculous. #shill
It sounds ridiculous to you because it hurts your ego. But it is truth.
It’s all to do with expectation.
If they releases a “reasonable change” at launch with just minor buff (it just has to be OBVIOUS that’s it’s a buff, but doesn’t need to be too big), people would have the same impression when they receive some OP changes.
But then when you kick in a nerf, people’s will suddenly have negative impression regardless of whether it’s a nerf to the “reasonable version” or “op version”.
It is much better to have minor buff with no nerf, keeping a positive impression, than to have a OP buff and slight nerf (doesn’t has to be big nerf, ANY nerf will get people upset no matter how small it is) People just don’t want their things being taken away. It’s a “greed and attitude issue” of human being, and it’s the truth.
As consequences, now people refuse to buy HoT because they’re “emotionally hurt”.
If Anet gives out a mediocre changes that requires no nerf to begin with, that person who doesn’t get “emotionally hurt” by it would have bought HoT. Human is emotional creature who often makes irrational decision base on impulse.
Wanted to clear something up:
Power Block had its damage unintentionally increased with the 6/23 release. The reduction wasn’t a “nerf” – it was a bug fix. It still does the same damage it did before the 6/23 release.
As for Maimed, we wanted to address it before the build went out but we ran out of time. I agree that it would have been better to have adjusted it before you guys got your hands on the new build, but there just wasn’t time. Sorry about this.
For staff cd trait – conditional recharge is something new we’re trying out. The high cd reduction uptime that we were seeing right out of the gate wasn’t something we felt comfortable with. If it feels really weak after this we’ll come back to it and look at it again.
Anyways, as Peters said, we’re keeping a really close eye on everything right now and things will definitely continue to shift as we discover and evaluate how things take shape across the game.
Hope that addresses a few of your questions.
Night!
Mesmer does need nerfs, so you are on the right track for sure! But the staff trait was probably the LEAST needed nerf on mesmer. Most people used and would have used sword anyway. It is inspiration you need to take a look at, as well as a couple other things. Staff was already a worse weapon than sword torch for most situations.
EDIT: This trait actually required the player to think somewhat, so please don’t bring back 20% flat reduction! It should be weaker (than 20%) if you only get 1 chaos armor, but stronger if you get 2! The sweetspot should be around 3,5% or something.
Yaniam [Mesmer]
^ Usually only characer that i play on
^ Usually only characer that i play on
(edited by Quadox.7834)
Dont even touch inspiration. We finally get real support with this line.
Guys please, we had 2 days of glory. Now ready yourself for 3 years of being behind. It’s tradition!
No really…anyone can see that 2% on staff isn’t enough. It is CONDITIONAL recharge so it should give more recharge than flat recharge when you put effort into it(as you can’t have it up all the time).
Did someone lock Robert in a room so he can’t interfere?
Anyway, any sane person can tell 40 secs of stealth is abit out of control.
Not really. Thieves kill you as fast as any Mesmer and have any duration of stealth they desire. Seems we all got used to that, however broken it might be (“GW2 only has short duration stealth” my… wordfilter). So yeah, please keep it, few months and people got used to it on Mesmers and we can finally remove non-specced MI because frankly it’s rubbish without the trait.
That’s my main issue, in any case. If the duration increase is that strong, that hints at a way bigger problem IMO: Baseline is too weak.
It is CONDITIONAL recharge so it should give more recharge than flat recharge when you put effort into it(as you can’t have it up all the time).
That might be part of the issue, in any group or raid it’d be very easy to just have Chaos Armor up, period. It’s not exactly a rare combo effect, caused by leaps and blasts. And we got a very low CD leap + a direct skill + got the fields + everyone else has tons of blasts.
Maybe making it dependent on something less common would make it better.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Guys please, we had 2 days of glory. Now ready yourself for 3 years of being behind. It’s tradition!
No really…anyone can see that 2% on staff isn’t enough. It is CONDITIONAL recharge so it should give more recharge than flat recharge when you put effort into it(as you can’t have it up all the time).
Did someone lock Robert in a room so he can’t interfere?
Yep 100% agree on this.
Is math that hard?
We all knew 5% was pretty ridiculous LONG before the patch went live. Just the same, we all know 2% is utterly useless, and in effect a nerf over the flat 20%.
I don’t know why you enjoy POing the Mesmer community so much. It’s not the way to treat customers to be so obtuse that simple math escapes your balancing decisions.
I think emotions and irrationality have been driving the nerfs against Mesmers, not common sense, math, objectivity, etc. This is the definition of Knee Jerk, and will only result in disgruntled players…and will never result in a balanced game.
Get professional please and start balancing in small steps, not giant leaps. You’ve killed off MtD and now the Staff trait. GG!
Wanted to clear something up:
Power Block had its damage unintentionally increased with the 6/23 release. The reduction wasn’t a “nerf” – it was a bug fix. It still does the same damage it did before the 6/23 release.
Good that you guys are fixing things. But maybe next time if you nerf-fix then think to buff-fix in the same time. We still have not working pistol trait, not working scepter trait…
Wanted to clear something up:
Power Block had its damage unintentionally increased with the 6/23 release. The reduction wasn’t a “nerf” – it was a bug fix. It still does the same damage it did before the 6/23 release.
As for Maimed, we wanted to address it before the build went out but we ran out of time. I agree that it would have been better to have adjusted it before you guys got your hands on the new build, but there just wasn’t time. Sorry about this.
For staff cd trait – conditional recharge is something new we’re trying out. The high cd reduction uptime that we were seeing right out of the gate wasn’t something we felt comfortable with. If it feels really weak after this we’ll come back to it and look at it again.
Anyways, as Peters said, we’re keeping a really close eye on everything right now and things will definitely continue to shift as we discover and evaluate how things take shape across the game.
Hope that addresses a few of your questions.
Night!
Perhaps this means you and the other devs are focusing on balancing one class at a time?
more appropriate way for anet to do some balance is like they introduce us the new specializations
they should do poi after week or two how they gonna change all the professions and skill trait etc so the community can react and comment
but by 10 hours nerfing and nerfing without explain (even if its obvious for some)
why condi ele / engi guard dont get nerfed with burning yet – 15-20 stacks of burning 5-7k dps its ok after 48 hours?!
why thieves dmg is overlook so far? or any other class…
because 30% playes ele, warrior, engi, guard
mesmer is 8%, thief 2 % – so lets nerf mesmer because the qq on their forum will be the shortest to handle
To everyone- stop calling for nerfs. With the patch being live less than a week just because something seems powerful does not mean it will be once people have made adjustments.
Grouch- So far Mesmer nerfs have been made in haste seemingly without thought and as I’m sure you and other dev’s can tell it is making more than a couple people upset. Rightfully so I believe. Conditions as a whole right now are strong, there is no denying that. However, a lot of people complained about MtD because they saw golems get very high stacks of torment on them and panicked. The other thing was in the few PvP games I played with MtD the people I played against lacked condition clear, probably assuming conditions would be something they could shrug off like pre-patch only to be wrong. That is a “player” issue not trait issue. If you don’t slot utilities for condition clear or trait for it then you will have a bad day and that is what most people did. If anything a two second duration reduction would have been better, will be better.
As for the staff trait it is now useless in small group or solo play. You are unable to chain enough armor to make 2% an effective amount. Yes you could bring more ethereal fields, however, that defeats the purpose of what you are trying to do in promoting build diversity. If I’m stuck to using half my bar for one trait it’s not worth it. 3-4% would have been a much better number to try first.
I honestly believe you need to widen you testing pool before you let patches this big go out so knee jerk reactions do not happen, or implement the forum specialist on a class subforum and consult with you forum specialist before hand.
Thanks,
Jace. Unified Kingdom [KING]
Sachyi Asuna. A [KING]’s Mesmer Unified Kingdom
for staff trait perhaps [a flat 20% +1% per second of chaos armor], [a flat 15% cd rate +2% for each second of chaos armor], or [a flat 10% +3% for each second of chaos armor]. “something we’re trying out” maybe you should have some form of this trait for testing before dropping it in a patch. That might save you a bit of grief.
(edited by Darkpsyde.4782)
ANet really needs to take a class from League of Legends. You never see balance adjustments within 24 hours of a patch over there. Because they understand that it takes time for changes to play out, especially in PvP.
First impressions of what’s too strong or too weak are always wrong. Especially with an advanced class like the Mesmer that relies on careful setup to achieve good results. Because that setup can and will get disrupted once other players figure out what it looks like.
Mind you, yes, the combination of “You and Illusions proc bleed on crit” and “You and illusions proc confusion on crit” felt really strong. But also really awesome. And honestly, I’d rather proc confusion than bleed, bleed is such a… a pleb condition! :P
And here we note that Sharper Images also got nerfed back to its original form that only allows illusions to proc it.
Amberley Avalen – Charr Mesmer
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
ANet really needs to take a class from League of Legends. You never see balance adjustments within 24 hours of a patch over there. Because they understand that it takes time for changes to play out, especially in PvP.
First impressions of what’s too strong or too weak are always wrong. Especially with an advanced class like the Mesmer that relies on careful setup to achieve good results. Because that setup can and will get disrupted once other players figure out what it looks like.
In general, Anet agrees with that philosophy.
However, keep in mind that League of Legends has a public beta server, where developers can quickly polish loose ends and refine balancing of upcomming changes. All those tweaks are done in a matter of days, not very different to what Anet is currently doing, with the exception that they’re less disruptive due to being released on a public test server first, before being available on the main client.
A public test server would do wonders for anet, and I believe they know that, but as they have nothing of the sort right now, it’s much better to keep realing quick changes for the most obvious problems than staying idle for a few months until the next patch in a critical period like this one.
In a way, you can say that the main client IS being treated like a public beta environment. Disruptive, yes, but necessary at the lack of a real PBE.
(edited by DiogoSilva.7089)
And here we note that Sharper Images also got nerfed back to its original form that only allows illusions to proc it.
kitten … it!
I hadn’t even noticed that! :’(
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Wanted to clear something up:
Power Block had its damage unintentionally increased with the 6/23 release. The reduction wasn’t a “nerf” – it was a bug fix. It still does the same damage it did before the 6/23 release.
As for Maimed, we wanted to address it before the build went out but we ran out of time. I agree that it would have been better to have adjusted it before you guys got your hands on the new build, but there just wasn’t time. Sorry about this.
For staff cd trait – conditional recharge is something new we’re trying out. The high cd reduction uptime that we were seeing right out of the gate wasn’t something we felt comfortable with. If it feels really weak after this we’ll come back to it and look at it again.
Anyways, as Peters said, we’re keeping a really close eye on everything right now and things will definitely continue to shift as we discover and evaluate how things take shape across the game.
Hope that addresses a few of your questions.
Night!
The real question here is where do you get those knee jerk reactions to nerf mesmer? Traits or skills that have never been tested, you change or nerf or fix immediately. But with other classes stuff that are currently in game?
I never see you guys see that with Consume Plasma (which is undoubtedly OP, ask anyone)For the bug fixes too, You guys fix Backstab bug ASAP when a lot of the thieves were crying, but how about our bugs that take ages to fix?
Dude no offense, it is just frustrating.
Needs to kittenoed because it’s continually Mesmer that is the first to be targeted for changes like this.
Maim, I could deal with. I saw it as an okay solution although not ideal. But the Chaotic Dampening nerf?
Really putting the jerk in kneejerk, guys.
It’s worse than Chaotic Dampening before you made ANY changes at all!
And something like double stealing plasma on a thief to have near permanent uptime of EVERY boon is something you all FAILED to address?
I find it hard to take this seriously. It’s the first time I’ve actually questioned why I play this game with such foolish balancing.
\o/
If Power Block was a bug, so be it, but what on earth is the motivation behind Chaotic Dampening nerfs? As others stated, it’s now worse than the flat 20% reduction.
Anet hates [your class], since [other classes] got buffs while [your class] only received nerfs.
Anyway, any sane person can tell 40 secs of stealth is abit out of control.
Not really. Thieves kill you as fast as any Mesmer and have any duration of stealth they desire. Seems we all got used to that, however broken it might be (“GW2 only has short duration stealth” my… wordfilter). So yeah, please keep it, few months and people got used to it on Mesmers and we can finally remove non-specced MI because frankly it’s rubbish without the trait.
That’s my main issue, in any case. If the duration increase is that strong, that hints at a way bigger problem IMO: Baseline is too weak.
It is CONDITIONAL recharge so it should give more recharge than flat recharge when you put effort into it(as you can’t have it up all the time).
That might be part of the issue, in any group or raid it’d be very easy to just have Chaos Armor up, period. It’s not exactly a rare combo effect, caused by leaps and blasts. And we got a very low CD leap + a direct skill + got the fields + everyone else has tons of blasts.
Maybe making it dependent on something less common would make it better.
It only works on chaos armor that the mesmer hinself creates
Yaniam [Mesmer]
^ Usually only characer that i play on
^ Usually only characer that i play on
I can live with condi nerfs. The problem I have is why the dev team felt it was neccessary to nerf mesmer…when you still have guards doing 7k burns, engis doing insane condi damage, and i’ve even seen condi rangers doing 5-6k burns. Why haven’t those classes gotten any nerfs? This kitten always happens to mesmer.
Wu Táng Financial [Táng] – YB
This in no way addressed why MtD was crushed. MtD was the center piece to a condition build. It is now similar to the minor trait of confusing on shatter.
It was not buffed from the months and months it has been live and not competitive. It got one indirect buff from IP and instantly gets nerfed to the ground? You literally nerfed the build that got the least amount of buffs from the patch because condi QQ?
Without MtD being strong there IS NO MESMER CONDI BUILD.
Please increase the torment duration on MtD to give more sustained damage if burst was the issue and add confusing combatants to the incredibly bad and boring scepter grand master that replaced MtD!
While doing all the nerfs, perhaps give us Sharper Images baseline and replace the trait with Confusing Combatants, or vice versa. Thanks.
I’m actually very curious as to why ANet doesn’t have a public test server for us to test out their massive changes.
Honestly, it’d really help them figure out their balance moreso than what we go through and we wouldnt +shouldn’t) have to go through these quick non thought out changes right after go live.
I post from a phone so please excuse any references to ducks or any other auto corrections.
power block damage was pretty crazy, I realized that when I 1 shotted a thief from 3/4 health with 1 daze.
Wanted to clear something up:
Power Block had its damage unintentionally increased with the 6/23 release. The reduction wasn’t a “nerf” – it was a bug fix. It still does the same damage it did before the 6/23 release.
As for Maimed, we wanted to address it before the build went out but we ran out of time. I agree that it would have been better to have adjusted it before you guys got your hands on the new build, but there just wasn’t time. Sorry about this.
For staff cd trait – conditional recharge is something new we’re trying out. The high cd reduction uptime that we were seeing right out of the gate wasn’t something we felt comfortable with. If it feels really weak after this we’ll come back to it and look at it again.
Anyways, as Peters said, we’re keeping a really close eye on everything right now and things will definitely continue to shift as we discover and evaluate how things take shape across the game.
Hope that addresses a few of your questions.
Night!
The new traits are supposed to be more powerful since we get less choice? I think the new method of conditional recharge was an excellent idea that worked great and was a lot of fun, but nerfing it to only recharging cool downs to what they were with the old chaotic dampening trait (20 percent just for having the trait equipped vs 20 percent for having to phase retreat and use your chaos armor….give me the old chaotic dampening anytime)
was the problem being able to get perma chaos armor via other glamor utilities? Didn’t have time to test this before the changes so idk but if so then perhaps a fix could be keep the conditional recharge lower but make staff 4 chaos armor recharge more often (Lower base cool down) this way you could recharge the skills more often but extra armor from glamor utilities would be less effective than before.
(edited by Fade.5904)
I definitely think dampening nerf was way too harsh and it should be brought up to 3%. We shouldn’t have to work harder to get what other traits give baseline.
-Rylock [vE]
Retired.
Retired.
What other class receives hotfix nerfs like this?
Wish they’d “let the meta settle” for 3 (or 9) months like healing signet…
Not to shoot the messenger, but in his own words,
The release has been out for 4 hours. It’s a little early to tell.
Cyyrix | Marypoppins Deathsquad [mds] | Team Riot [RIOT] | Blackgate
(edited by cyyrix.6105)
This was to be expected at least with the staff trait. The recharge was ridiculous. Expect pu next, as it is even more over the top.
I main a mesmer and obviously, these traits are very strong and desirable. However, most professions now have rather stupidly strong staff. If there is not to be complete chaos, various things everywhere need to be adjusted.
I would like to see Anet “adjust” other classes, instead doing the tweaks mostly to Mesmers.
Sanctum of Rall
Pain Train Choo [Choo]
Mind Smack – Mesmer
Pain Train Choo [Choo]
Mind Smack – Mesmer
CD cd: Unless your build allow you to make extra combos with ethereal fields outside the staff, that 2% at most equal the 20% level. And there are many situations and scenarios where you do not want to spend a PR-CS combo when it can save your life later or use CS away from you when needed. This type of charges, if you do not provide a reasonable improvement over the traditional, not worth it because the average time saved is usually worse than flat and you can even catch the bad habit of trying to lower the cooldown when it is not advisable.
Wanted to clear something up:
Power Block had its damage unintentionally increased with the 6/23 release. The reduction wasn’t a “nerf” – it was a bug fix. It still does the same damage it did before the 6/23 release.
As for Maimed, we wanted to address it before the build went out but we ran out of time. I agree that it would have been better to have adjusted it before you guys got your hands on the new build, but there just wasn’t time. Sorry about this.
For staff cd trait – conditional recharge is something new we’re trying out. The high cd reduction uptime that we were seeing right out of the gate wasn’t something we felt comfortable with. If it feels really weak after this we’ll come back to it and look at it again.
Anyways, as Peters said, we’re keeping a really close eye on everything right now and things will definitely continue to shift as we discover and evaluate how things take shape across the game.
Hope that addresses a few of your questions.
Night!
Thank you for taking the time to reply and braving the forums.
Regarding MtD – as with pretty much all of us here the change to 1 stack has killed condition shatter.
The whole idea of condition shatter was to apply burst condition damage, but now all we can do is mediocre sustained damage which is easily mitigated by any class/build with average sustain and condition cleanse.
MtD condition shatter was much stronger before this patch, without IP. Please reconsider this hasty and uncalled for nerf which has pretty much destroyed the whole idea of condition shatter as a viable playstyle.
Once again the usual suspects come flooding in to claim Mesmer is OP and every other class is fine and then claim we are the ones who are delusional. Unfortunatly these idiots are the ones Anet listens too and thats why balance in this game has always been kittened.
The fact is Josh made a post saying it was too early to start nerfing things and we should see how things settle then hours after it killed condie Mesmer while leaving the factually stronger condie ele and condie engie alone. Then came the next patch and once again a nerf for Mesmer, didn’t touch any of our bugs and fixed several bugs for other classes.
This is the definition of kneejerk nerfs straight after you claimed you weren’t going to do that and obviosuly playing favourite with classes.
And just for the record, I don’t see anything majorly bad about the Power Block nerf. I also didn’t see anything too bad with the Staff nerf except you over-nerfed it when 3% would have been more balanced (basic math proves this). The biggest issue is the maim nerf, because it simply reinforces the trend that has happened with Mesmers since the game came out.
Rinse wash repeat with the devs:
- Quick to “fix bugs” that lessen Mesmer effectiveness.
- Quick to fix bugs on other classes that boost their effectiveness.
- Slow to fix our bugs.
- Quick to nerf our traits/skills.
- Slow to nerf traits/skills of other classes. See Healing Signet & Turrets.
Agreed.
Power Block – ok, understandable.
Staff trait – should be 3%.
Confounding Suggestions – I expect this will be next to balance
PU – it’s too much and encourages sloppy play.
MtD… absolutely ridiculous. It should be 2 stacks.
However, keep in mind that League of Legends has a public beta server, where developers can quickly polish loose ends and refine balancing of upcomming changes. All those tweaks are done in a matter of days, not very different to what Anet is currently doing, with the exception that they’re less disruptive due to being released on a public test server first, before being available on the main client.
A public test server would do wonders for anet, and I believe they know that, but as they have nothing of the sort right now, it’s much better to keep realing quick changes for the most obvious problems than staying idle for a few months until the next patch in a critical period like this one.
In a way, you can say that the main client IS being treated like a public beta environment. Disruptive, yes, but necessary at the lack of a real PBE.
Actually, the PBE is not used for balancing. The LoL devs have talked about this before. Basically, PBE environments are not conducive to balance testing. There are a lot of reasons why, but it comes down to:
- PBE is not an accurate sample of the player population
- Players on PBE are usually more interested in trying new champions and items than playing “seriously”
- The PBE iterates too quickly to draw accurate balance conclusions
LoL does a small amount of preliminary balance on their PBE, but they make most of the big balance decisions by watching the live servers. Which is why their balance team is called “Live Balance”, actually.
LoL frequently launches a new or reworked champion or item to the live servers in an unbalanced state. But even when a reworked champ (and the GW2 patch that just dropped is closer to a rework than a new release) is out of balance on launch, they usually wait a week or two before fixing the numbers.
I’ll use Ekko as an example, because he’s a new champion who had a complicated kit with elements that were clearly overtuned on launch. Here’s his timeline:
- Launch: Patch 5.10, June 4
- First Nerf: Patch 5.11, June 16
- Second Nerf: Patch 5.12, June 23
The important thing about this pattern is that it builds confidence. They’re ok letting their new champion be a little bit OP for a while if it means that everyone agrees they did the right thing when they nerf him.
Nerfing things within 24 hours of release — even if you planned the nerfs beforehand but didn’t get them into the release build in time — is the exact opposite of that. It destroys trust and confidence. Especially when the same balance team is obviously content to let far worse balance problems go unaddressed for months or years.
Amberley Avalen – Charr Mesmer
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
Tanya Larina – Human Thief
Finchy Whyte – Sylvari Ranger
And just for the record, I don’t see anything majorly bad about the Power Block nerf. I also didn’t see anything too bad with the Staff nerf except you over-nerfed it when 3% would have been more balanced (basic math proves this). The biggest issue is the maim nerf, because it simply reinforces the trend that has happened with Mesmers since the game came out.
Rinse wash repeat with the devs:
- Quick to “fix bugs” that lessen Mesmer effectiveness.
- Quick to fix bugs on other classes that boost their effectiveness.
- Slow to fix our bugs.
- Quick to nerf our traits/skills.
- Slow to nerf traits/skills of other classes. See Healing Signet & Turrets.
Yeah, there’s a pattern of “Drop a big buff that looks suspiciously good on paper and then ends up kinda OP in play, Smiter’s-Boon something into irrelevance after 24 hours, spend months dawdling on how to raise the values back up to a useful level.”
Best take your time with nerfs and don’t leave the balance halfway done.
Nemain The Eyeless · [JOY] · Tarnished Coast · http://tcwvw.com
Wanted to clear something up:
Power Block had its damage unintentionally increased with the 6/23 release. The reduction wasn’t a “nerf” – it was a bug fix. It still does the same damage it did before the 6/23 release.
As for Maimed, we wanted to address it before the build went out but we ran out of time. I agree that it would have been better to have adjusted it before you guys got your hands on the new build, but there just wasn’t time. Sorry about this.
For staff cd trait – conditional recharge is something new we’re trying out. The high cd reduction uptime that we were seeing right out of the gate wasn’t something we felt comfortable with. If it feels really weak after this we’ll come back to it and look at it again.
Anyways, as Peters said, we’re keeping a really close eye on everything right now and things will definitely continue to shift as we discover and evaluate how things take shape across the game.
Hope that addresses a few of your questions.
Night!
Like I said in another thread regarding Chaotic Dampening. We are now forced to do SOMETHING (maybe even revolve our rotations just to accompany a SINGLE trait) just to maximize the effect of the trait that is WORSE prior to the revamp while other classes just stand around with better traits that don’t need any active thought. WHERE’S THE BALANCE IN THAT?
We’d be less volatile if you guys found faults in every class and not just kneejerking on ours as other posters here have indicated.
I swear this whole revamp thing feels rushed just cause you guys felt the need to compete against Heavensward’s release. But hey, that’s just my opinion.
GW2 has taught me that being a Mesmer is about..
..being a cynical forecaster.
..being a doom-monger….and being a hopeless jinxer.
..being a cynical forecaster.
..being a doom-monger….and being a hopeless jinxer.
Staff trait – should be 3%.
Can someone explain the math to me on how exactly this works? Is it reducing the recharge by a % of max, or by a % of remaining? What would be the effective recharge of chaos storm with 100% armor uptime if the trait were 3%?
I’ll use Ekko as an example, because he’s a new champion who had a complicated kit with elements that were clearly overtuned on launch. Here’s his timeline:
- Launch: Patch 5.10, June 4
- First Nerf: Patch 5.11, June 16
- Second Nerf: Patch 5.12, June 23
Compare this to Anet’s timeline:
- Launch: June 23
- First Nerf: June 23 (really? same day?)
- Second Nerf: June 24
Anet, strap your knee down and stop it from jerking PLEASE.
Despite the nerf on Power block.. it’ still works well. …So the 17% is not to bad. For the rest we gonna have to wait & see more feedback from players.
While I am appreciative that Josh Davis actually showed up and said something, I really don’t understand most of the mesmer nerfs. I’m concerned that the formula for condition damage wasn’t hit first before individual class nerfs and I feel like mesmer is singled out often and quickly. I’m not sure why MtD is such an issue as even with the patch I have never seen torment even hit 25 stacks, not even on a world boss. In addition, it does not seem that torment’s damage formula was boosted at all either. On top of all this, the projection for damage is still quite optimistic because you’re assuming the mesmer will be in proximity of the target and they have three illusions and all three will actually hit upon shatter.
…
Thanks for stopping by. It’s appreciated!
Warning, personal opinion incomming.
Power Block
Fair enough. It felt very rewarding after the patch. It will remain an attractive trait after the change, though. I just really hope it won’t be useless in PvE. Defiance bar. Cough.
Maimed
I’m really torn on this one. I faced an incredibly annoying PU condi shatter Mesmer. I did run condition removal but I wouldn’t call it excessive. I also ran an interrupt build which is innately weaker against stealthed targets. His damage felt fine from a subjective point of view. He wrecked me. All the stealth was probably the more problematic part, though.
From an more objective point of view, condi shatter Mesmers didn’t gain too much from the recent patch aside from the additional effect through IP. However, they also very likely lost condition duration. A 50% nerf stack-wise seems pretty harsh and not very thoughtful even when considering the additional stack Torment and Confusion through baseline IP.
Chaotic Dampening
Fay already pointed out that with a 2% recharge bonus the trait has been nerfed from a recharge point of view. Yes, we gain Protection on Chaos Armor. But this feels more like a goodie for the rather underwhelming Staff#4. I also find it extremly problematic that the new trait forces you into very limited rotations to maintain a reasonable recharge bonus.
In other words: Coming from a 5% recharge bonus the change feels extremly harsh and reduces the usefulness of this trait for many builds which don’t have any additional sources of Chaos Armor. I do agree that 5% might be too much. But we could at least have tried 3% first.
Confusing Combatants
I do see the issue with multi-hitting weapons (especially GS AA) and Illusions but there are so many ways to find a different solution than completely removing the trait.
- Exclude AAs from the trait
- Make the effect Mesmer only
- Put an 1-2s ICD per target onto it
Make a pick.
While I do like the new Minor and believe it does fit the line I’m pretty bummed about Confusing Combatants being gone. Because it did open up build options which Master Fencer doesn’t.
- Condi Well-o-Mesmer
- non-Phantasm-non-Shatter-Condi Mesmer
I was especially looking forward to the first one since Glamours got stripped of this kind of offensive potential. Removing Confusing Combatants yet again leaves Mesmers with condition options which are exclusively centered around Illusions. Which – like we all know – fall short in many different game scenarios, especially in large scale fights.
Prismatic Understanding
Uff. Difficult one.
Personally, I appretiate and support stronger group stealth on Mesmers. That being said, I really don’t believe Mesmers need that much amount of personal stealth. It becomes extremly dull fighting such a class. Just look at Thieves.
Prismatic Understanding would be way more balanced if the stealth bonus would be different for the available stealth skills. Meaning, while MI and Veil could easily remain at the current level, I hardly feel that the new traited durations for Prestige and Decoy can be justified. Adding the Pledge into it, it becomes even more problematic.
Hrm, to add to what Xaylin said:
Confusing Combatants
I agree, I was also looking forward to the idea of a condi-Chronomancer using crits on well-pulses to apply bleeding and confusion, in addition to my illusions proccing those. Sadly, that spec is entirely removed even before HoT launched, simply by removing Confusing Combatants and not changing Sharper Images.
It means that a condi build has to be shatter centric. That’s a shame, because it’s so formulaic. It also means wells and condition damage don’t mesh. This might be intentional, but then why the direct damage on them in the first place?
Prismatic Understanding
I also agree here, I’m biased again, I hate Thieves. I hate their endless spammed personal stealth and the constant target losses as a result. I love how strong I can be on my Mesmer, and I love that we got another viable spec that way, but I hate it regardless.
I am honestly not sure what to do with the trait though. Anything not related to fiddling with stealth durations and/or availability, IMO. Can make it fire orbital strikes randomly for 20 seconds in a 1500 radius, I won’t care, so long as stealth is limited. Added bonus: those strikes decloak thieves. :P
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Deleted because I need to throttle back a bit
Mesmerising Girl
I still don’t understand why MtD needed to be nerfed, but I’m seeing thieves drop people in Settler’s gear from 100% to downed in less than 2 seconds
… and the only Thief changes I’ve seen are “Sorry, we didn’t mean for you to be penalized like everyone else when you miss … don’t be revealed when you flub your backstab. Go and prosper little Thief.”
… which, to add insult to injury for warriors … was done at the same time warriors received a change that says “Sorry, you missed your burst skill, so this GM trait is not going to give you +%dmg … on top of CLeansing Ire not cleansing you … because it’s important that you not miss with key skills”
… I don’t understand the seeming lack of consistent logic.
Christian. Husband. Father. Friend. Developer. Gamer.
Try your best to not make mistakes, but, when you do make mistakes, learn from them.
Better yourself.
Try your best to not make mistakes, but, when you do make mistakes, learn from them.
Better yourself.
However, keep in mind that League of Legends has a public beta server, where developers can quickly polish loose ends and refine balancing of upcomming changes. All those tweaks are done in a matter of days, not very different to what Anet is currently doing, with the exception that they’re less disruptive due to being released on a public test server first, before being available on the main client.
A public test server would do wonders for anet, and I believe they know that, but as they have nothing of the sort right now, it’s much better to keep realing quick changes for the most obvious problems than staying idle for a few months until the next patch in a critical period like this one.
In a way, you can say that the main client IS being treated like a public beta environment. Disruptive, yes, but necessary at the lack of a real PBE.
Actually, the PBE is not used for balancing. The LoL devs have talked about this before. Basically, PBE environments are not conducive to balance testing. There are a lot of reasons why, but it comes down to:
- PBE is not an accurate sample of the player population
- Players on PBE are usually more interested in trying new champions and items than playing “seriously”
- The PBE iterates too quickly to draw accurate balance conclusions
LoL does a small amount of preliminary balance on their PBE, but they make most of the big balance decisions by watching the live servers. Which is why their balance team is called “Live Balance”, actually.
LoL frequently launches a new or reworked champion or item to the live servers in an unbalanced state. But even when a reworked champ (and the GW2 patch that just dropped is closer to a rework than a new release) is out of balance on launch, they usually wait a week or two before fixing the numbers.
I’ll use Ekko as an example, because he’s a new champion who had a complicated kit with elements that were clearly overtuned on launch. Here’s his timeline:
- Launch: Patch 5.10, June 4
- First Nerf: Patch 5.11, June 16
- Second Nerf: Patch 5.12, June 23
The important thing about this pattern is that it builds confidence. They’re ok letting their new champion be a little bit OP for a while if it means that everyone agrees they did the right thing when they nerf him.
Nerfing things within 24 hours of release — even if you planned the nerfs beforehand but didn’t get them into the release build in time — is the exact opposite of that. It destroys trust and confidence. Especially when the same balance team is obviously content to let far worse balance problems go unaddressed for months or years.
Well said. I have much doubt Anet will ever come close to Riot on this.. Would be nice though.
I left this game mainly because of the lack of content but also the constant give and take with Mesmers. It’s the only class I play and I have no interest in the other classes. I was so excited for these changes and wanted to come back and enjoy it, now I remember why I quit originally.
I just don’t understand Anet and the thought process they have with the Mesmer class.
I agree with everything that was said from Xaylin (especially about chaotic dampening) aside from the PU trait.
You can literally perma stealth with it now. That is not good for the game even though it’s anti-conquest. (it is the most OP trait in WvW per example) You can let your phantasms do all the work while you rotate your stealth and rarely ever come out of it. Or you can go super burst and 100-0 people everytime your cooldowns are up from rotating your stealth again. It needs to be turned back to what it used to be. Stealth mesmer in conquest should never be a thing (imo) and this is currently buffing it to an obvious break of balance where it actually has a place (WvW). But at this point, why am I even bothering… OP stuff in WvW anet doesn’t care – venomshare wells cough cough
I had theorycrafted my build to use Chaotic Dampening before the patch because it felt right though when the patch hit I understood how strong it was and I can see why it needed a bit of shaving off but currently the amount chosen is very underwhelming and puts it back into the list of things that were nerfed too kitten mesmer. Please reconsider the % for recharge.
mouth too blunt, truth too loud
If it feels really weak after this we’ll come back to it and look at it again.
To nerft it even more?
Anyways, as Peters said, we’re keeping a really close eye on everything right now
Everything except the Ele as I can see…..
Why don’t you save yourself a lot of trouble and go delete the mesmer class instead of nerfing us everytime you have the chance?