Guild Wars 2

Blanche Neige.7241:

Why don’t you save yourself a lot of trouble and go delete the mesmer class instead of nerfing us everytime you have the chance?

Yeah, just make an Elementalist elite spec with clones and be done with it.

Kitta.3657:

I agree with everything that was said from Xaylin (especially about chaotic dampening) aside from the PU trait.

You can literally perma stealth with it now. That is not good for the game even though it’s anti-conquest. (it is the most OP trait in WvW per example) You can let your phantasms do all the work while you rotate your stealth and rarely ever come out of it. Or you can go super burst and 100-0 people everytime your cooldowns are up from rotating your stealth again. It needs to be turned back to what it used to be. Stealth mesmer in conquest should never be a thing (imo) and this is currently buffing it to an obvious break of balance where it actually has a place (WvW). But at this point, why am I even bothering… OP stuff in WvW anet doesn’t care – venomshare wells cough cough

I had theorycrafted my build to use Chaotic Dampening before the patch because it felt right though when the patch hit I understood how strong it was and I can see why it needed a bit of shaving off but currently the amount chosen is very underwhelming and puts it back into the list of things that were nerfed too kitten mesmer. Please reconsider the % for recharge.

I hear you, but balance in WvW will never be a thing (guard stacks? +/- duration food? Food that literally gives you a static damage increase on top of oils and stones?)

Unless you make the rules of WvW like pvp and give people amulets, don’t expect balance there.

On the other note.
I have noticed a lot of classes can 100-0 people.
Or perma stun them
Or burn them for 3k+
OR condi load them in a second

Everything is powerful, not just us.

Solori.6025:

On the other note.
I have noticed a lot of classes can 100-0 people.
Or perma stun them
Or burn them for 3k+
OR condi load them in a second

Everything is powerful, not just us.

But therein lies the problem. Everything else is working as intended, at least in the general sense. Compare what will happen to other classes, and what will happen to Mesmer. The scales won’t even be near equal.

Mesmer, when it performs like everyone else, is broken beyond game breaking.

It is a carry over from GW1, where Anet caved constantly to low level players that couldn’t figure out how to beat a well-played mesmer. And they are still scared to death of what an equally tuned well-played mesmer would be capable of doing.

While my opinions are more biased toward sPvP, they also apply to WvW and PvE. PvE especially will suffer, as Anet refuses to separate their balancing. Mesmer, due to class mechanics and PvP/WvW capabilities, will always be kitten in PvE until they reverse that stance – competitive damage in PvE is totally overscaled for PvP/WvW.

Hockmed.9417:

Solori.6025:

On the other note.
I have noticed a lot of classes can 100-0 people.
Or perma stun them
Or burn them for 3k+
OR condi load them in a second

Everything is powerful, not just us.

But therein lies the problem. Everything else is working as intended, at least in the general sense. Compare what will happen to other classes, and what will happen to Mesmer. The scales won’t even be near equal.
.

Sorry what?

No
NO
everything is not working as intended.

No, mesmer doesn’t magically pull ahead of the pack. They are finally in line with everyone and people are freaking out. Because this is the first time in a LONG time that mesmer has had the capability to actually be dangerous and punish people for spamming and doing dumb things.
It’s like when ranger’s were buffed and people cried bloody murder because they never had to deal with a ranger before ( kinda like the OP)

This is the problem we are having now.
People are complaining about everything new.

When the dust settles ( 3-4 months from now) I think we will have more viable builds for every class that fit in this meta.
This would be the first time (? i think?) in the history of gw2 pvp where every class has some role they could fill.

On the other hand.
I think we will see stats shaved from the pvp amulets and gear before that happens.
The power creep is real, no one can deny that.

Just leave Prismatic Understanding alone. I hear so many people crying about “wah, Mesmer stealth shouldn’t be a thing”. Yes it should. Of the 8, going on 9 professions in the game, there are two where it is thematically appropriate that stealth be a big part of their toolkit: Thieves and yes, Mesmer. We are illusionists that deceive and manipulate the perception of reality. Now, finally, we have the amount of stealth we should’ve had all along, and we still have to trait into it unlike Thieves who get tons no matter what.

Also, does anyone ever bother to keep in mind that we are a light armor profession? From a balance standpoint, the only reason we should take more damage than other professions is that we can do correspondingly more in other areas, including avoidance. We should have this level of stealth.

If you want to nerf the boons PU gives while in stealth, fine, but leave the duration alone. Stealth Mesmer is, and should always have been, a thing.

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

Just leave Prismatic Understanding alone. I hear so many people crying about “wah, Mesmer stealth shouldn’t be a thing”. Yes it should. Of the 8, going on 9 professions in the game, there are two where it is thematically appropriate that stealth be a big part of their toolkit: Thieves and yes, Mesmer. We are illusionists that deceive and manipulate the perception of reality. Now, finally, we have the amount of stealth we should’ve had all along, and we still have to trait into it unlike Thieves who get tons no matter what.

Also, does anyone ever bother to keep in mind that we are a light armor profession? From a balance standpoint, the only reason we should take more damage than other professions is that we can do correspondingly more in other areas, including avoidance. We should have this level of stealth.

If you want to nerf the boons PU gives while in stealth, fine, but leave the duration alone. Stealth Mesmer is, and should always have been, a thing.

I can only say enjoy it while it lasts. I don’t know what kinda PU build you play but I tested it out and it’s beyond op. With full stacks, I have
20k hp
3000 power
50+% crit chance
215 crit dmg
2000 armor
and 22s stealth + mirror + low cd blink

I can one shot zerker class and have a good chance with any other class. i can even walk around zergs and easily get away. I very much enjoy it but it’s reasonable to expect a nerf on this.

And all those stats have what to do with the Stealth? You’d have that stuff anyway. You might as well call every current Mesmer build OP at the moment – oh wait, people are actually already doing that. I’ve never seen such a pathetic display. We finally get the power we deserve and people are begging for it to be taken away again. Unbelievable.

What did you expect? People who never had to worry about mesmers before have to actually learn how to fight them because they are suddenly even more dangerous.

Then, since there is no “meta” yet, instead of thinking about their own build and how to fight mesmers, they come to the forums to cry.
Meanwhile , some of mesmers who regularly post in the forums also ask for all kinds of nerfs (sorry, BALANCE).

So your average Anet developer sees what? He can go ahead and nerf the class because hey, everybody is asking for it, even the mesmers themselves. We can just come out later and say: it was a bug and we did not nerf you, just fixed the bug.
Funny how people who played condi are upset about the MtD nerf, but they don’t care that much about other things being OP, nerfed or what.

Honestly, if you guys keep asking for nerfs, or saying “there is so much that needs to be toned down”… then don’t be upset later that we’ve been nerfed. Did you see what the engineers did when their precious swiftness was at stake?

serenke.4806:

Meanwhile , some of mesmers who regularly post in the forums also ask for all kinds of nerfs (sorry, BALANCE).

So your average Anet developer sees what? He can go ahead and nerf the class because hey, everybody is asking for it, even the mesmers themselves. We can just come out later and say: it was a bug and we did not nerf you, just fixed the bug.
Funny how people who played condi are upset about the MtD nerf, but they don’t care that much about other things being OP, nerfed or what.

Honestly, if you guys keep asking for nerfs, or saying “there is so much that needs to be toned down”… then don’t be upset later that we’ve been nerfed. Did you see what the engineers did when their precious swiftness was at stake?

Except a lot of if not all the regular mesmers who care about balance are in the MtD thread complaining it’s an over nerf even when they don’t often play that build.

Those same people you’re saying asking for nerfs want the staff trait buffed a bit to between 3-4% to find a happy medium between where the users feel it’s good and the developer feels it’s not OP.

Some things are just plain too strong. 4k from power block was a tad too strong especially given all the other stuff it did, 17% reduction is a fairly decent shave and it hasn’t broken it while retaining all the usefulness it had before.

Engineers are spoilt little ****s with a silver spoon in every oriface, 10k auto mortar kit gets toned down and people cry, I’d love it if any Mesmer auto did even 50% of that reliably. Don’t anyone dare link a GS auto total of 100k, no-one falls for that stuff anymore.

I expect more shaves, all we can do is make arguments for how it has a counter or possible alternatives. I’d like it if the devs posted a list of things they felt were too strong and allowed us to give feedback on ways it can be adjusted. Given the general rudeness from a lot of people especially to Josh and Gaille recently I can’t imagine they’re too keen.

P.S. Anyone able to summon phantasmal Robert Gee to help adjust what is too strong, he really pulled a number on the final revision. Their layout and positions are great while being very thematic in the end.

serenke.4806:

What did you expect? People who never had to worry about mesmers before have to actually learn how to fight them because they are suddenly even more dangerous.

THIS send this to Devs ASAP!!!

Pppl tends to think mesmer is easy kill, or he will struggle and they can kill them anyway..and suddenly supprise!! they actualy can kill you in matter of second if you suck balls at PVP and roll face over keyboard,a s i watched few pros in PVP its seems they dont have problems with Mesmers… beside too long PU, and we can all aggre, this skill need change to 50/70% or remake to not be OP with Shatter builds, but fine with other specs. Power Block nerf was also needed, 8/9k AOE Locks was absurds in TF as Ranger traps are killing 5 ppl in matter of 3s…

I don’t have any issue with reasonable adjustments like 17% on PB, or even if they clipped PU a bit down to 75%. Those are tweaks, certainly not minor, but not huge either.

What I want to know is how an ability was ever conceived that needs a 50%+ nerf. Why did no one figure this out before mathematically? In the case of the Staff trait nerf, how could you possibly not have foreseen the issue with this? It’s plain common sense and basic math.

Even before the patch I noted that these new CD reduction abilities are not a good idea. They’re not only hard to balance, but I fail to see any added value they bring. It’s not exactly skillful to use PR in your CS and follow that up with the CA active in order to maximize the CD reduction. However, when the baseline for abilities is usually 20%, and then you force players to jump through hoops without rewarding them for it…what was gained again? Nothing. It does nothing but create unneeded complexity without reward, and makes a class both tedious and unrewarding to play. Good game design tries to eliminate these situations, rather than create more of them!

With 3% you’re in the territory of where you can potentially gain significant CD reduction by jumping through even more hoops, but obviously Anet feels that puts you back into OP territory as far as CS & CA go. What was the point of this new design then? Just let go of bad design decisions! Go back to flat 20% and don’t add unnecessary complexity & tedium without payoffs!

“More effort with lesser or equal result” has been the mantra Mesmers have complained about for years, and now you’re moving right back into that territory with every heavy-handed nerf you’re making.

Balancing should ideally never involve adjustments of more than 5-25% here or there, and should also ideally be an iterative process of such smaller adjustments over time. (As opposed to knee jerk, which has never ever lead to a balanced game!)

Every time you have to halve something or worse, you should be asking yourselves how the design could have been so bad from the outset, to require such a gutting later. In almost every case, you will not achieve balance, but only ruin abilities, classes, and simply mask the real issue: poor design. (Not to mention you’re wasting precious resources and alienating customers in the process.)

@Arshay Duskbrow:
No, PU in the current state is ridiculous. Anyone and their mothers can utilize a PU conid or PU shatter build and own the others while having a huge survivability. No one said stealth shouldn’t be a part of Mesmer gameplay. But currently it is just zoo much of it. It allows no real counter play and you are simply bursted down out of stealth, without any indication what so ever. Thief stealth and burst can be in many instances anticipated, but Mesmer stealth can’t. This is why it needs to be tuned down a notch.

And before you say anything. I main Mesmer myself and tried PU for some time now… it is just out of control and I refuse to use this trait now, because winning with it is neither skill full nor does it feel satisfying.

If ANet would leave PU alone, they would need to nerf the hell out of other traits, to bring PU builds in line. And this will cause other non PU builds to be below mediocre. That should not be the end result.

It’s actually easier to tell when a Mesmer is going to burst from stealth because it’s usually accompanied by a phantasm summoning, clone movement, mirror blade, iLeap etc etc as Mesmer burst is multifaceted. I’m seeing plenty of s/t + GS Mesmers trying to burst me from stealth and it’s as predictable now as it was before the patch. I haven’t been burst down by a single Mesmer this week, but I have taken a few 11K backstabs out in WvW with no indication that they were coming as that damage is loaded into one single strike. Just stack stealth around a corner and then go wandering for squishes with your dagger

The only real issue with PU is that it allows Mesmer to reset too easily, just like a Thief. And just like a Thief I’m finding it a little too disruptive to the flow of combat

Simonoly.4352:

The only real issue with PU is that it allows Mesmer to reset too easily, just like a Thief. And just like a Thief I’m finding it a little too disruptive to the flow of combat

I understand this one, but many classes have their escapes too. Think ele, gs warr, melee ranger, thief, necro (HAHAHA sorry). I like PU for wvw when I need to zerg dodge or lose that group of 5-10 that feel the need to chase me across the map for some reason. Mass invis baseline was just too short for that.

Dammerung.6419:

I like PU for wvw when I need to zerg dodge or lose that group of 5-10 that feel the need to chase me across the map for some reason. Mass invis baseline was just too short for that.

I’m thinking they could have simply raised mass invis to 10 sec baseline and left PU alone. The 5 sec of invis felt way too weak for an elite, especially compared to something like shadow refuge(with 1/4s cast).

neptunechild.4831:

Arshay Duskbrow.1306:

Just leave Prismatic Understanding alone. I hear so many people crying about “wah, Mesmer stealth shouldn’t be a thing”. Yes it should. Of the 8, going on 9 professions in the game, there are two where it is thematically appropriate that stealth be a big part of their toolkit: Thieves and yes, Mesmer. We are illusionists that deceive and manipulate the perception of reality. Now, finally, we have the amount of stealth we should’ve had all along, and we still have to trait into it unlike Thieves who get tons no matter what.

Also, does anyone ever bother to keep in mind that we are a light armor profession? From a balance standpoint, the only reason we should take more damage than other professions is that we can do correspondingly more in other areas, including avoidance. We should have this level of stealth.

If you want to nerf the boons PU gives while in stealth, fine, but leave the duration alone. Stealth Mesmer is, and should always have been, a thing.

I can only say enjoy it while it lasts. I don’t know what kinda PU build you play but I tested it out and it’s beyond op. With full stacks, I have
20k hp
3000 power
50+% crit chance
215 crit dmg
2000 armor
and 22s stealth + mirror + low cd blink

I can one shot zerker class and have a good chance with any other class. i can even walk around zergs and easily get away. I very much enjoy it but it’s reasonable to expect a nerf on this.

Pwahaha. Your funny neptune. Geez have you bin updated at all. Everybody can 1 shot light armor class. (Unless you change for survival.) Why do ppl think that mesmers should be the only class not to be able to do that is beyound me?

The new PU gave 2 additional seconds of stealth on Torch and Decoy and 4 seconds on the elite. It does not suddenly make them completely OP, it does not give any sort of damage boost. It is a solid grand master now that encourages using multiple stealth skills to change your playstyle. Nerfing PU will not suddenly stop mesmers from stealthing and hitting hard.

TyPin.9860:

@Arshay Duskbrow:
No, PU in the current state is ridiculous. Anyone and their mothers can utilize a PU conid or PU shatter build and own the others while having a huge survivability. No one said stealth shouldn’t be a part of Mesmer gameplay. But currently it is just zoo much of it. It allows no real counter play and you are simply bursted down out of stealth, without any indication what so ever. Thief stealth and burst can be in many instances anticipated, but Mesmer stealth can’t. This is why it needs to be tuned down a notch.

And before you say anything. I main Mesmer myself and tried PU for some time now… it is just out of control and I refuse to use this trait now, because winning with it is neither skill full nor does it feel satisfying.

If ANet would leave PU alone, they would need to nerf the hell out of other traits, to bring PU builds in line. And this will cause other non PU builds to be below mediocre. That should not be the end result.

Do tell me how this is any different than a thief’s backstab out of nowhere mechanic.

Did Josh ever explain why Main the Disillusioned was nerfed?

dietzero.3514:

Did Josh ever explain why Main the Disillusioned was nerfed?

Yea, from what I’ve read, they tested it on those standing golems in PvP and got scared of the stacks and deemed it OP. lol

Caelus.7139:

TyPin.9860:

snap

Do tell me how this is any different than a thief’s backstab out of nowhere mechanic.

Alright:

• Thief backstab needs to be in melee range. Mesmer shatter can be melee to increase damage, but doesn’t need to be. It can come from any direction and a very long range even.
• Thief can be pushed or pulled during stealth to prevent him from getting to you. Often this results in stealth wearing off (in my experience at least). Mesmer with PU has a good chance the pull will get blocked due to aegis.
• Backstab always works in the same patterns. Mesmer burst from stealth has way more possibilities (like dodge baiting via phantasms), which only increase with additional stealth time.
• Thief gets revealed from Backstab. Mesmer can time shatter just when his stealth wears off, preventing him from being revealed.

Now does this all only apply to PU builds only? No it doesn’t. But with PU builds it is made considerably more easy to execute to a point where I think it is too easy.

TyPin.9860:

Caelus.7139:

TyPin.9860:

snap

Do tell me how this is any different than a thief’s backstab out of nowhere mechanic.

Alright:

• Thief backstab needs to be in melee range. Mesmer shatter can be melee to increase damage, but doesn’t need to be. It can come from any direction and a very long range even.
• Thief can be pushed or pulled during stealth to prevent him from getting to you. Often this results in stealth wearing off (in my experience at least). Mesmer with PU has a good chance the pull will get blocked due to aegis.
• Backstab always works in the same patterns. Mesmer burst from stealth has way more possibilities (like dodge baiting via phantasms), which only increase with additional stealth time.
• Thief gets revealed from Backstab. Mesmer can time shatter just when his stealth wears off, preventing him from being revealed.

Now does this all only apply to PU builds only? No it doesn’t. But with PU builds it is made considerably more easy to execute to a point where I think it is too easy.

I dont all Agree.
Imagine if you reduce thief stealth by half & so on, & see how easy they would have it to reset & repositionning them self for an attack. hahaha, they would’nt!
Pretty much the same for us. Except we have longer cooldowns. thieves have initiative that recovers faster. Spamming anyone?

PU is fine as is!

TyPin.9860:

Caelus.7139:

TyPin.9860:

snap

Do tell me how this is any different than a thief’s backstab out of nowhere mechanic.

Alright:

• Thief backstab needs to be in melee range. Mesmer shatter can be melee to increase damage, but doesn’t need to be. It can come from any direction and a very long range even.
• Thief can be pushed or pulled during stealth to prevent him from getting to you. Often this results in stealth wearing off (in my experience at least). Mesmer with PU has a good chance the pull will get blocked due to aegis.
• Backstab always works in the same patterns. Mesmer burst from stealth has way more possibilities (like dodge baiting via phantasms), which only increase with additional stealth time.
• Thief gets revealed from Backstab. Mesmer can time shatter just when his stealth wears off, preventing him from being revealed.

Now does this all only apply to PU builds only? No it doesn’t. But with PU builds it is made considerably more easy to execute to a point where I think it is too easy.

1) It’s like you haven’t seen how a thief ports in and out with ease, is this point for real?
2) You push and pull him, ok. CnD, and you’re back to square one. I’d say your Aegis argument had value, too bad it’s not 100% chance.
3) Stealth Immob spam.
4) If Mes misses, your stealth CDs are down whether you have PU or not. Your saving grace is if you have torch and weap swap or decoy on near 3s timer. Backstab reveal? That only procs if it hits, which usually means you’re down to half or less than half health. Say hello to 10k Heartseeker.

You act like thieves don’t have 10s allboons that they can now store whcih the devs continually ignore and consider “balanced” either.

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

@Caelus:
Really? I am at least trying to stay a bit more objective here. If you but throw useless emotional garbage at me and act like thieves have no limitations at all, then the discussion is worthless. The only thing you did was answer back to me figuratively: “Thieves can do anything”.

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

@Caelus:
Really? I am at least trying to stay a bit more objective here. If you but throw useless emotional garbage at me and act like thieves have no limitations at all, then the discussion is worthless. The only thing you did was answer back to me figuratively: “Thieves can do anything”.

“Emotional garbage”, that’s rich.

Can we be objective when it comes to a profession that has no cool-down on their most potent weapons skills?

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

after contradicting yourself on the other thread, why am i not even surprise.

Vieux P.1238:

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

@Caelus:
Really? I am at least trying to stay a bit more objective here. If you but throw useless emotional garbage at me and act like thieves have no limitations at all, then the discussion is worthless. The only thing you did was answer back to me figuratively: “Thieves can do anything”.

I’m not even surprised.

Heh, that was kind of funny. Nothing to add, just making a note.

Carry on

Vieux P.1238:

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

after contradicting yourself on the other thread, why am i not even surprise.

Except, there wasn’t a contradiction. Also, nice try to troll. You are now sidetracking a discussion into another thread, where it is harder for people to actually follow what happened. But well, that’s what trolls do.

kylwilson.9137:

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

@Caelus:
Really? I am at least trying to stay a bit more objective here. If you but throw useless emotional garbage at me and act like thieves have no limitations at all, then the discussion is worthless. The only thing you did was answer back to me figuratively: “Thieves can do anything”.

“Emotional garbage”, that’s rich.

Can we be objective when it comes to a profession that has no cool-down on their most potent weapons skills?

Yeah, and initiative is eternal in any given situation… This is becoming beyond ridiculous.

TyPin.9860:

Vieux P.1238:

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

after contradicting yourself on the other thread, why am i not even surprise.

Except, there wasn’t a contradiction. Also, nice try to troll. You are now sidetracking a discussion into another thread, where it is harder for people to actually follow what happened. But well, that’s what trolls do.

kylwilson.9137:

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

@Caelus:
Really? I am at least trying to stay a bit more objective here. If you but throw useless emotional garbage at me and act like thieves have no limitations at all, then the discussion is worthless. The only thing you did was answer back to me figuratively: “Thieves can do anything”.

“Emotional garbage”, that’s rich.

Can we be objective when it comes to a profession that has no cool-down on their most potent weapons skills?

Yeah, and initiative is eternal in any given situation… This is becoming beyond ridiculous.

Entire Mesmer forum be like:

Because we’re honestly all at that point.

Also I take back any comments I said about the MtD nerf being necessary. Screw everyone else, it’s how every other profession forum acts. Why should I act act different. \o/

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

@Caelus:
Really? I am at least trying to stay a bit more objective here. If you but throw useless emotional garbage at me and act like thieves have no limitations at all, then the discussion is worthless. The only thing you did was answer back to me figuratively: “Thieves can do anything”.

I don’t see any emotional spurt there. You gave your situations, I gave mine. The only thing you did was give me situations figuratively: “Mesmers can do anything” You yourself make it sound like our stealth abilities don’t go on cooldown once we come out of it.

I’ve said it before and I will say it again. I will only accept nerfcries if they are applied for everyone, not just devs using us as scapegoats for their definition of “balance”.

TyPin.9860:

Vieux P.1238:

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

after contradicting yourself on the other thread, why am i not even surprise.

Except, there wasn’t a contradiction. Also, nice try to troll. You are now sidetracking a discussion into another thread, where it is harder for people to actually follow what happened. But well, that’s what trolls do.

kylwilson.9137:

TyPin.9860:

@Vieux P:
I don’t understand your argument.

@Caelus:
Really? I am at least trying to stay a bit more objective here. If you but throw useless emotional garbage at me and act like thieves have no limitations at all, then the discussion is worthless. The only thing you did was answer back to me figuratively: “Thieves can do anything”.

“Emotional garbage”, that’s rich.

Can we be objective when it comes to a profession that has no cool-down on their most potent weapons skills?

Yeah, and initiative is eternal in any given situation… This is becoming beyond ridiculous.

I think most people agree; this is beyond ridiculous. What people don’t agree on is what side of the fence that ridiculous falls on.

Maybe A-Net will knee jerk reaction to things again but hopefully now they’re winding down to look at numbers and data presented to them. Not a lot has been provided by players so all of this argument back and forth about what’s OP and what’s not?

Borderline useless. It’s used for venting frustrations and how people “perceive” things to be. The general consensus is that damage is high all over the place and we’ll see where that settles down. People will keep posting though to vent which is fine but if we keep sniping each other and talking down to one another that their somehow beneath us for having a different opinion in a video game where you can shoot unicorns out of a bow, it just makes everyone involved look silly.

… hindsight I wish we got shortbow as a mesmer. That would have been awesome with Dreamer.

Do remind me how thieves managed to melanoma their way into the discussion though, don’t they have their own forums to kitten on about?

EDIT: PSA – Melanoma is a verb now and hopefully it will catch.

@Caelus:
Decoy, Mimiced Decoy, MI and Torch. Those are 4 unconditional stealth skills, 2 of those with 0 cast time and 0 tells, one of them kinda with 1/4s cast time and only one of them with almost 2s cast time. What I have described were actual instances, which I have witnessed or what I had done myself.

You on the other hand talk about teleports, as if a main hand dagger thieve can teleport like a S/D. You give no credit for gap closing and initiative cost in your responses. Thus, your statements were weirdly out of proportion. Especially considering Thieves not only face Mesmers, but also Guardians for instance. Where going melee brings them in actual immediate danger even when cloaked.

@Loxsus:
I do hope so too that ANet doesn’t jump to overly eager balancing changes. And I am aware of the possibility that I might be wrong regarding PU. However, I am not really frustrated or even venting about the game. But the tendency of some seems to be: criticize Mesmer trait and you are trying to take down the profession as a whole. Which is obviously not my aim for I myself main Mesmer.

You have steal which essentially kind of shoots any argument you just put forward in the foot (twice if you still had those ricochet pistol traits there, my condolences). Seeing as you can simply wait until a Mesmer is revealed for even a moment, and continue to poison, damage, heal from them, and gain every boon in the game twice, all from out of line of sight.

TyPin.9860:

@Caelus:
Decoy, Mimiced Decoy, MI and Torch. Those are 4 unconditional stealth skills, 2 of those with 0 cast time and 0 tells, one of them kinda with 1/4s cast time and only one of them with almost 2s cast time. What I have described were actual instances, which I have witnessed or what I had done myself.

You on the other hand talk about teleports, as if a main hand dagger thieve can teleport like a S/D. You give no credit for gap closing and initiative cost in your responses. Thus, your statements were weirdly out of proportion. Especially considering Thieves not only face Mesmers, but also Guardians for instance. Where going melee brings them in actual immediate danger even when cloaked.

@Loxsus:
I do hope so too that ANet doesn’t jump to overly eager balancing changes. And I am aware of the possibility that I might be wrong regarding PU. However, I am not really frustrated or even venting about the game. But the tendency of some seems to be: criticize Mesmer trait and you are trying to take down the profession as a whole. Which is obviously not my aim for I myself main Mesmer.

Do remind me how often you can recast those mesmer skills in comparison to how thieves can on theirs. Like I said, you gave your situations, I gave mine. Tbh I don’t know where this argument of ours is going. Are you trying to advocate for mesmer nerfs while not considering the fact that the other classes are in dire need as well? Cause that’s where my problem lies. If it’s not obvious enough with all my posts, I will not stand for any nerfs that are not correlated with other classes. If I have to be nerfed, so do the others. But in all honesty, I fear that will not be the case.

Caelus.7139:

TyPin.9860:

@Caelus:
Decoy, Mimiced Decoy, MI and Torch. Those are 4 unconditional stealth skills, 2 of those with 0 cast time and 0 tells, one of them kinda with 1/4s cast time and only one of them with almost 2s cast time. What I have described were actual instances, which I have witnessed or what I had done myself.

You on the other hand talk about teleports, as if a main hand dagger thieve can teleport like a S/D. You give no credit for gap closing and initiative cost in your responses. Thus, your statements were weirdly out of proportion. Especially considering Thieves not only face Mesmers, but also Guardians for instance. Where going melee brings them in actual immediate danger even when cloaked.

@Loxsus:
I do hope so too that ANet doesn’t jump to overly eager balancing changes. And I am aware of the possibility that I might be wrong regarding PU. However, I am not really frustrated or even venting about the game. But the tendency of some seems to be: criticize Mesmer trait and you are trying to take down the profession as a whole. Which is obviously not my aim for I myself main Mesmer.

Do remind me how often you can recast those mesmer skills in comparison to how thieves can on theirs. Like I said, you gave your situations, I gave mine.

& yet another +1million
ThQ for making my point. TyPin.9860 actually dint understand that when i was making my point between thief initiative & Mesmers (skill’s/utilities) cooldowns.

@Typin
Emotional garbage? His points are maybe slightly exaggerated, but calling them emotional garbage is absurd. What that says to me is that you recognized the validity of his points, couldn’t figure out a way to refute them, and so descended to the sophomoric level of calling them ‘garbage’ in the hopes that everyone else would ignore them.

Allow me to elaborate on your original points a bit.

1.
You claim mesmers can do shatter burst at long range. This is incredibly and intentionally misleading. In a standard quick burst, IP is between a 1.5x and 2x modifier for the total shatter damage. Bursting without IP is not bursting at all.

Additionally, attempting to use mirror blade from long range is usually a losing proposition as it is easy to see and dodge. On top of that, a significant amount of burst comes from the rapid bouncing of mirror blade that is only achievable at point blank range.

Claiming you can shatter burst at range is nothing but absurd nonsense.

2.
Burning cooldowns to attempt cc on a stealthed thief is a best lucky, and at worst capable of losing the fight for you. You can try to predict the location of the thief, but blindly throwing out cc in the hopes that it’ll hit the thief is not a tactic that will enjoy much success against a skilled player.

3.
Backstab always works in the same patterns? That’s absurd nonsense. Backstab is an attack from stealth. There is no tell, and the thief can choose when to use it.

You can attempt to predict when it comes, and you can even get quite good at predicting it. Unfortunately, the thief has the ultimate timing advantage, even now. CnD thieves can restealth on clones with little risk, and d/p thieves can permanently restealth through the combo.

A patient thief will land the backstab, because eventually you’ll run out of active defenses to try and prevent it.

4.
The point made by Caelus here is quite accurate: backstab only reveals if it hits. If it hits, you’re already on the back foot in the fight and need to take some sort of immediate defensive measures.

Additionally, your argument is inherently flawed. If the Mesmer waits until stealth wears off to attack, that means 2 things. First is that it gives the other person a chance to react to the burst. Second is that it makes your burst extremely predictable. By limiting when you attack, it allows your opponents to know when you’re trying to burst simply by the duration of your stealth skills.

A good Mesmer bursts unpredictably, and that means eating a bit of revealed when you do.

Now, I invite you to dismiss my arguments as ‘emotional garbage’, but I think you’ll find that I make a rather compelling logical case that is difficult to write off without making yourself look extremely foolish.

Mesmers are strong, even now still soooo strong… I crit people for like 6k Damage, im sorry but a few nerfs doesnt mean ur doomed lol… its Pre-patch their perfecting things “im so lucky i didnt pre-order HoT” how does that even work out in ur head?!

Alacrity is going to become MASSIVE in HoT, and make mesmers needed every game! how do u feel Not having that is going to make u lucky? teams are just going to replace u…. we’re being given a mechanic which will be a exclusive buff to our class which we provide to the team…. ur going to NEED It if u want any competitive team or Rush PvE Teams to take u seriously.

@Fay:
I agree my reaction was a bit over the top. But to your points (which are actually articulated):

1. I agree that shatter from long range is less powerful than melee range. That does not change the fact that you can do it. And still you can do considerable damage. At least that was my experience with the new trait system. I did not do the math on it. And doing a shatter from a save distance should be less powerful. I am not intentionally misleading and I am a bit offended that you claim so. But nonetheless, let’s move on.
2. Than I was lucky more than I deserved? Also stealth tracking with Mirror Blade and using GS #5 is a thing. Although it’s situational and requires skill. Point is, it is possible. Less so with a Mesmer, if she gained Aegis from PU (not sure of Mirror blade still tracks, if it got blocked by Aegis though). And it’s not only Mesmers fighting thieves. For warriors for instance, it is considerable easier to do Hammer burst to CC the thief in stealth if he doesn’t dodge it.
3. Thing is Backstab still needs to be closer to the target than any Mesmer burst. Including IP-Shatter and Mirror Blade. For a lack of a better word, I used the word “pattern”. The Thief is still at higher risk going so close and becomes better predictable than a Mesmer. You have more freedom of approach with a shatter burst, than with a Backstab. Additionally you can shatter as Mesmer literally when passing by. That’s very different for a Thief backstab. But I realize that this is actual the same point as #1.
4. The Mesmer can wait, he doesn’t have to. Phantasms still do damage during this time. It wouldn’t make sense to use this tactic all the time. You can alternate, when to do your burst. Point is, you can do the same damage with or without stealth, while Thief relies on getting his attack off while still in stealth. This additional freedom, that is offered to Mesmers, is what makes Thief burst and Mesmer burst so different. And giving Mesmer 6s instead of 4s stealth makes it so very easy for Mesmers to get their burst out.

@Caelus:
I do apologize for the words “emotional garbage”. That was uncalled for. However, I explained the points in my response to Fay. I personally think PU is too strong atm. It allows to get the burst out too easy, while leaving you at a very low risk of exposing yourself. A thief has to expose himself in melee range for his backstab. That might be less of an issue against Mesmers, but is very different against some other classes.

TyPin.9860:

@Fay:
I agree my reaction was a bit over the top. But to your points (which are actually articulated):

1. I agree that shatter from long range is less powerful than melee range. That does not change the fact that you can do it. And still you can do considerable damage. At least that was my experience with the new trait system. I did not do the math on it. And doing a shatter from a save distance should be less powerful. I am not intentionally misleading and I am a bit offended that you claim so. But nonetheless, let’s move on.
2. Than I was lucky more than I deserved? Also stealth tracking with Mirror Blade and using GS #5 is a thing. Although it’s situational and requires skill. Point is, it is possible. Less so with a Mesmer, if she gained Aegis from PU (not sure of Mirror blade still tracks, if it got blocked by Aegis though). And it’s not only Mesmers fighting thieves. For warriors for instance, it is considerable easier to do Hammer burst to CC the thief in stealth if he doesn’t dodge it.
3. Thing is Backstab still needs to be closer to the target than any Mesmer burst. Including IP-Shatter and Mirror Blade. For a lack of a better word, I used the word “pattern”. The Thief is still at higher risk going so close and becomes better predictable than a Mesmer. You have more freedom of approach with a shatter burst, than with a Backstab. Additionally you can shatter as Mesmer literally when passing by. That’s very different for a Thief backstab. But I realize that this is actual the same point as #1.
4. The Mesmer can wait, he doesn’t have to. Phantasms still do damage during this time. It wouldn’t make sense to use this tactic all the time. You can alternate, when to do your burst. Point is, you can do the same damage with or without stealth, while Thief relies on getting his attack off while still in stealth. This additional freedom, that is offered to Mesmers, is what makes Thief burst and Mesmer burst so different. And giving Mesmer 6s instead of 4s stealth makes it so very easy for Mesmers to get their burst out.

@Caelus:
I do apologize for the words “emotional garbage”. That was uncalled for. However, I explained the points in my response to Fay. I personally think PU is too strong atm. It allows to get the burst out too easy, while leaving you at a very low risk of exposing yourself. A thief has to expose himself in melee range for his backstab. That might be less of an issue against Mesmers, but is very different against some other classes.

Fair enough. I’ve already voiced my opinion that PU should at least be at 75% instead. As for the argument that only mesmers should be punished with too much burst out of stealth, I will not stand for any nerf to that unless thieves are also looked at. The fact that they can do the same, if not more, damage out of stealth and them getting a pass for it while we get potentially targeted for a nerf? I cannot agree to that.

@Fay:
I moved the discussion in another PU dedicated thread.
Link

Niminion.1982:

The new PU gave 2 additional seconds of stealth on Torch and Decoy and 4 seconds on the elite. It does not suddenly make them completely OP, it does not give any sort of damage boost. It is a solid grand master now that encourages using multiple stealth skills to change your playstyle. Nerfing PU will not suddenly stop mesmers from stealthing and hitting hard.

Can you do math?
It gives 3 additional seconds to all the 3 secs stealth and 5 additional seconds to mass invisibility.

I seriously think the trait should just add 25% to stealth duration, so 3 secs → 4 secs, and 5 secs → 6.66 secs. More in line with thieves. The boons kinda pulse too much also.

And another kittening mesmer nerf!! >< Arenanet please!

Fnix.5608:

And another kittening mesmer nerf!! >< Arenanet please!

Can we please step back and be realistic here. This trait was not functioning appropriately. Their fix actually buffed the trait under some situations. The rampant crying needs to stop.

But a 10 sec ICD? Thats a pretty long time.. And why are they only nerfing mesmers? There are other way more OP skills to look at..

CptCuddles.8912:

Fnix.5608:

And another kittening mesmer nerf!! >< Arenanet please!

Can we please step back and be realistic here. This trait was not functioning appropriately. Their fix actually buffed the trait under some situations. The rampant crying needs to stop.

Could you take a step further back and see that from the last patch, mesmer has gotten the most attention and actually broken things are ignored… like engineer grenades. Healing prism was kind of a buff (and a 10 second icd isn’t that big of a deal, let’s be real), which is nice, but it’s not nearly as big a concern as grenades 1 shotting people.

More importantly, it is actually a nerf. A fix would have been to prevent the outside sources that are unintentionally triggering the trait. This is a stopgap to prevent the trigger spam – the extra 200% base heal won’t compensate the healing lost for mantra mesmers, or anyone who took the shatter heal trait.

The 10s ICD is really only a “nerf” to this trait when used with Mantra heal, which is probably fine. It’s not like our support builds really cared that much about heal-spamming anyway.

Sharkey.9805:

the extra 200% base heal won’t compensate the healing lost for mantra mesmers, or anyone who took the shatter heal trait.

Does the shatter heal actually trigger effects that proc on heal skills? I don’t think it does.

Why would you nerf that…it was already weak, but 10 second recharge on 500 health, really? So much for Inspiration being taken seriously as a support line. Another completely baffling “balance” decision…

tobascodagama.2961:

The 10s ICD is really only a “nerf” to this trait when used with Mantra heal, which is probably fine. It’s not like our support builds really cared that much about heal-spamming anyway.

Sharkey.9805:

the extra 200% base heal won’t compensate the healing lost for mantra mesmers, or anyone who took the shatter heal trait.

Does the shatter heal actually trigger effects that proc on heal skills? I don’t think it does.

Totes does. Just did it.

In the end it’s not going to mean much – it’s doing approximately what it was intended to do. But the bug’s still there, and some day when they do fix the issue… well, it’ll mean even fewer procs from healing prism :P