Guild Wars 2

Please allow me to preface this thread with a few important things.

1) Anyone who replies to this, please be civil and constructive
2) This contains partly my own opinions and also contains concerns raised by others. Even where I don’t personally agree withthem, if enough voices say the same thing there must be some truth to it.

That said, I would like, if possible, if a representative of Anet could reply here. I know, I’m asking for a lot. But hear me out.

The changes to Mesmers, in my eyes, don’t entirely make sense.

Mesmers have two big concerns with the 7th’s patch: Phantasm changes and Chaos Storm changes. I will detail them individually.

Phantasm changes: Alright, we all have the infamous “Legion” build. This build relies on Phantasmal Fury, Sharper Images, and a few side traits to make Phantasms do serious damage. Something that has been steadily getting reduced. I’ll buy the Warden changes. There’s no excuse for an attack whose duration is longer than its cooldown. It was a bug, plain and simple. But Duelist and Warlock? My concerns with these changes:

1) Phantasmal Haste still does not appear to work correctly. Meaning the recent changes actually hurt Mesmers more than the tooltips show. Dear Anet, are you aware of the issues with PhanHaste, and what if any changes would you like to make?
2) Is iLock REALLY that powerful? It hits decently hard but slow; and worse only achieves its full potential if you can maintain a high number of conditions on the target. When Winds seems to like just stacking vuln/bleeding all day, you’re not getting the most out of it. I feel iLock does not do that much damage Dear Anet, where were you seeing the lock too powerful?
3) And let’s just say it is. And I won’t even TRY to deny Duelist is powerful. Is the CD reduction the way to go? Could we instead have had a reduction in overall damage per hit? My reasoning for this is that at least we could mange uptime easier. Phantasm uptime can be a big challenge, esp with Phantasmal Haste not working correctly. Dear Anet, why choose a cooldown nerf over a tweak on the damage numbers?
4) This was probably a PvP oriented change, but may heavily hurt many PvE builds. Dear Anet, PvE damage has been a major concern pre-patch for many Mesmers, as these boards will show. Do you feel comfortable with our PvE damage?

Now, about Chaos Storm. This was the change that upset me personally. Spontaneous AoE damage is a place that mesmers struggle when compared to Eles, Necros, Warriors, Rangers….just about anyone. Let me define what I mean by that. Mesmers have three main sources of aoe:

1) Chaos Storm (Long recharge, condition/dot based)
2) iBerserker/Warden (Great damage but doesn’t always attack immediately when spawned)
3) Shatter (Requires illusions to be out, illusions require target mobs to be present.)

Option 1, Chaos Storm, takes time to ramp damage because it is condition based. The problem is that in large events, waves of mobs die within 3-5 seconds. Fast pre-placement of a field can sometimes guarantee enough damage to earn a chance at loot, but nothing like what other classes can do. what’s more, the CD was already enough that we could rarely hit two waves in a row. And if you are too slow and wasted a CD and didn’t get anything…well sucks to be you. That was before the patch. The extra seconds added on now only make that harder.

Option 2, iZerker or Warden, works great…on paper. But, as noted in multiple posts, they (and other phantasms) do not appear to attack immediately upon summon unless you have certain traits specced (and then not always). As such, sometimes, by the time they get around to attacking, they either already died or the crowd of mobs did.

Option 3, Shatter, requires ramp up time. The quickest we can possibly get a full load of illusions out is ~2-3 seconds (Mirror Images, followed by whatever). Then hit the shatter key, have the illusions move to the target, then shatter…if they or it didn’t die before they got there. Oh and many illusions skills require close range to even activate, which means ranged AoE like Eles can bombard while we’re still running up. Mobility skills and Illusionary Persona help this, but a +0 IP shatter does not do enough damage to count as a loot tag.

[b]Dear Anet: Are our phantasms not attacking immediately working as intended? And what are your feelings towards our ability to quickly generate AoE damage in large events?[b]

I want to thank everyone, developer and player alike, for taking the time to read this. I ask that those of you from the community that do respond please be respectful and not turn this into a flame fest. Lashing out at one another only gets threads locked and ignored. What I’d like to see is an open discourse between us and the developer on the state of our profession.

I look forward to everyone’s responses.

Terrant.2903:

Now, about Chaos Storm. This was the change that upset me personally. Spontaneous AoE damage is a place that mesmers struggle when compared to Eles, Necros, Warriors, Rangers….just about anyone. Let me define what I mean by that. Mesmers have three main sources of aoe:

1) Chaos Storm (Long recharge, condition/dot based)
2) iBerserker/Warden (Great damage but doesn’t always attack immediately when spawned)
3) Shatter (Requires illusions to be out, illusions require target mobs to be present.)

snip

Rampup? Have you seen the cast times on abilities? With sword/sword or GS, and proper traiting (see my sig), I can spawn clones/phantasms constantly, between shortened cooldowns and dodges. Our aoe burst is amazing with sword 2 and shatters.

0 – Start
0.75s – Clone or phantasm ability 1
1.5s – Clone of phantasm ability 2
2.5s – dodge complete
2.5s – shatter for 15k+ damage

Meanwhile, sword 2 can drop 5k+ easily. If you summoned the GS phantasm you just did 3k+ aoe damage, or 4-5k with swordsman in one hit. By my math, with some lucky crits, you easily just dumped 25k damage in 3 seconds. I do this ALL THE TIME in WvW and PvE (dungeons, and solo farming), and it’s a freaking joke. Sure, I have full exotic gear, but it’s not hard to get.

Please stop making sweeping generalizations about the mesmer community or the class because you copied a PVP BUILD created by someone like Taugrim and tried to make it work in PvE. Sword/Pistol + STaff is NOT going to work very well outside of PvP, espcially with a ton of trait points in survival trees. Experiment, make up your own mind, and be creative.

Xyrm.5602:

Terrant.2903:

Now, about Chaos Storm. This was the change that upset me personally. Spontaneous AoE damage is a place that mesmers struggle when compared to Eles, Necros, Warriors, Rangers….just about anyone. Let me define what I mean by that. Mesmers have three main sources of aoe:

1) Chaos Storm (Long recharge, condition/dot based)
2) iBerserker/Warden (Great damage but doesn’t always attack immediately when spawned)
3) Shatter (Requires illusions to be out, illusions require target mobs to be present.)

snip

Rampup? Have you seen the cast times on abilities? With sword/sword or GS, and proper traiting (see my sig), I can spawn clones/phantasms constantly, between shortened cooldowns and dodges. Our aoe burst is amazing with sword 2 and shatters.

0 – Start
0.75s – Clone or phantasm ability 1
1.5s – Clone of phantasm ability 2
2.5s – dodge complete
2.5s – shatter for 15k+ damage

Meanwhile, sword 2 can drop 5k+ easily. If you summoned the GS phantasm you just did 3k+ aoe damage, or 4-5k with swordsman in one hit. By my math, with some lucky crits, you easily just dumped 25k damage in 3 seconds. I do this ALL THE TIME in WvW and PvE (dungeons, and solo farming), and it’s a freaking joke. Sure, I have full exotic gear, but it’s not hard to get.

Please stop making sweeping generalizations about the mesmer community or the class because you copied a PVP BUILD created by someone like Taugrim and tried to make it work in PvE. Sword/Pistol + STaff is NOT going to work very well outside of PvP, espcially with a ton of trait points in survival trees. Experiment, make up your own mind, and be creative.

As much as you’d like to preach otherwise, Xyrm, mesmers do fall behind in the AoE category, especially when farming Orr events. Mind Wrack is not instant and the clone AI stinks to the point they run around after the mobs, following some crazy trail before they even explode. iBerserker does tend to fail every so often, waiting before actually attacking. Not to mention it only spins in a straight line; this path is not chosen by the mesmer. Therefore, your iBerserker could just float off entirely the wrong direction and hit 2-3 mobs out of 10 that you were hoping to hit.

Also, way to go with attacking the OP after he spoke with a clear, respectful manner and stated his opinions. Just because you feel strongly about your opinions doesn’t mean they’re right and/or more important than someone else’s.

To Terrant;

I have to agree with most of your post. The changes had me boggled myself. I have a problem with ANet nerfing my phantasms when they can already be one-shotted fairly easily. And Chaos Storm did not need that nerf. It was one of the few place-able AoE’s we had that did mediocre damage at best.

Dear Anet, please explain to us why these changed were made. A lot of us are confused. Thank you for your time.

EDIT: I also wanted to add that if these changes were made for PvP and not PvE, why haven’t they separated the skills yet? Mesmer PvE is already hurting.

Xyrm.5602:

Rampup? Have you seen the cast times on abilities? With sword/sword or GS, and proper traiting (see my sig), I can spawn clones/phantasms constantly, between shortened cooldowns and dodges. Our aoe burst is amazing with sword 2 and shatters.

0 – Start
0.75s – Clone or phantasm ability 1
1.5s – Clone of phantasm ability 2
2.5s – dodge complete
2.5s – shatter for 15k+ damage

Meanwhile, sword 2 can drop 5k+ easily. If you summoned the GS phantasm you just did 3k+ aoe damage, or 4-5k with swordsman in one hit. By my math, with some lucky crits, you easily just dumped 25k damage in 3 seconds. I do this ALL THE TIME in WvW and PvE (dungeons, and solo farming), and it’s a freaking joke. Sure, I have full exotic gear, but it’s not hard to get.

Please stop making sweeping generalizations about the mesmer community or the class because you copied a PVP BUILD created by someone like Taugrim and tried to make it work in PvE. Sword/Pistol + STaff is NOT going to work very well outside of PvP, espcially with a ton of trait points in survival trees. Experiment, make up your own mind, and be creative.

Thank you for your post, but I’ll ask you refrain from assumptions and vitriol.

Please note number three at the top of my thread, should you read the entirety. Not all of this is even reflective of my own opinions, but that of that larger vocal community here. If enough people say it, there’s something to it even if you or I don’t completely agree.

I will agree that you CAN get massive damage from shatters. But you still need that 2.5 seconds of yours AFTER the mobs spawn to get the illusions out. You also neglected travel time from the illusion’s spawn point to wherever the mobs are; or n the case of a melee shatter, YOUR movement to the spawn point. An Ele, Necro, etc can just drop their AoEs where they know the mobs will be, at 1200 range, and do enough damage to get loot. A few dozen of them at an event and they can and will kill mobs before other players can catch up. Sword 2 requires melee range, see my point again regarding run up. Phantasms work great IF they attack as soon as summoned. When they don’t they are likely to die or be dispersed by the target mob’s mob death before they attack.

I’m not claiming the sky is falling; I’m claiming that more pve mesmer builds have become less viable than they were before due to changes that seem largely PvP related. In the mean time, known bugs whith things like Phantasmal haste and Staff#2 continue to plague us but seem to be ignored.

I’m actually using a sword/sword+GS shatter build at the moment and find it satisfactory most of the time even after the changes, but in large Orr events I can see where it can become frustration when a horde of Eles and Rangers gib the mobs so fast you don’t have your illusions to them yet.

In addition, I simply want to know what the reasoning was behind the changes, especially Chaos Storm.

The changes from this patch had no effect on my build, however I agree with the OP that a “state of the mesmer” post from a dev would be encouraging. There are a lot of changes with the mesmer and there are a lot of proven bugs with traits and skills that are still active in the current build of the game.

It would be very nice to at least hear from a dev about the vision and design of the mesmer regarding recent changes.

Ill just copy paste what Ive said in another topic about our profession and the latest patch

1) Mesmer is a PvP class, like in Gw1
2) Therefore PvP balance is their top priority (and then hopefully traits)
3) Mesmer will become better in PvE with expansions and new content (skills etc.)
4) Real Mesmer players choose it for style and concept, not power or popularity
5) Chaos Armor got buffed

I must be missing something here.

I can never get my Shatter for 15k+ damage. That would mean each shatter hit for 3.75k+ damage each with all of them crits. Which with a plus 88% Crit dmg (Which would need 30 Duelist, all Zerker’s exotic, and All Divinity), would be over 1575 per Mind Wrack hit on a non-crit. Step a bit further back without Mental Torment, and its 1313+ per clone shatter on a normal hit when shattering 4x (with IP).

… How? What are you using to get that high of a Mind Wrack damage on a 4x Shatter? I quite literally can’t figure that out.

I’m going to break your post down, because I disagree with pretty much everything and you seem to feel I’m just being rude and ignorant.

Terrant.2903:

Thank you for your post, but I’ll ask you refrain from assumptions and vitriol.

The “assumption” I made may not be fact, but the vast majority of people who voiced the “concerns” you mentioned were copying this kind of build from someone like Taugrim or Team Legacy or the like. It wasn’t meant to be specifically at you, but since you decided to take up the mantle to represent these people, you have to be prepared to understand WHY they are saying this. Also, it wasn’t my intent to be hostile, so I’m sorry if it came out that way. I’m just frustrated by the continued ignorance on these boards, both surrounding mesmers and dungeons.

Terrant.2903:

Please note number three at the top of my thread, should you read the entirety. Not all of this is even reflective of my own opinions, but that of that larger vocal community here. If enough people say it, there’s something to it even if you or I don’t completely agree.

Nope, that’s not true at all. A lot of rangers are complaining that their pets are a detriment in dungeons, but a lot of them don’t even know that you can set your pet to passive or recall them to you! Most of these posts are borne out of ignorance because the majority of players are unimaginative and look up their builds online and have no idea of the context or purpose, or what the strengths/weakness tradeoffs are for that purpose.

Terrant.2903:

I will agree that you CAN get massive damage from shatters. But you still need that 2.5 seconds of yours AFTER the mobs spawn to get the illusions out. You also neglected travel time from the illusion’s spawn point to wherever the mobs are; or n the case of a melee shatter, YOUR movement to the spawn point. An Ele, Necro, etc can just drop their AoEs where they know the mobs will be, at 1200 range, and do enough damage to get loot. A few dozen of them at an event and they can and will kill mobs before other players can catch up. Sword 2 requires melee range, see my point again regarding run up. Phantasms work great IF they attack as soon as summoned. When they don’t they are likely to die or be dispersed by the target mob’s mob death before they attack.

2.5 seconds is hardly any time at all. As for travel time, we have multiple tools to get places more quickly (Sword 3, blink), so that’s less of an issue. As for clone travel time, it’s nto that bad if you’re on a target; only if they are doing nothing but running away from you is it an issue, in which case they will die anyway from staff or GS auto attacks. Sure, Necro/Ele’s in an event have an advantage, but if there is really THAT much AoE damage, just take out a melee weapon like the 1H sword and start swinging. Regardless, tagging an event that has a ton of people isn’t really a valid balance concern, it’s more important the class is balanced in 5 man pvp/dungeons, and WvW… which it is, if not still overpowered.

Staff 5 is still INCREDIBLY strong, but the problem is even though most people know it, they use it incorrectly. It is a better defensive spell than offensive, in fact it almost always gives Aegis as part of its random buffs. THis means you SHOULD drop it on FRIENDLIES, not enemies (plus this way, it works better with combos to give chaos armor or confusing projectiles).

Terrant.2903:

I’m not claiming the sky is falling; I’m claiming that more pve mesmer builds have become less viable than they were before due to changes that seem largely PvP related. In the mean time, known bugs whith things like Phantasmal haste and Staff#2 continue to plague us but seem to be ignored.

It could be argued the builds that existed before were actually LIMITING diversity by seeming to be the only “right” option in PvP, especially for tPvP. The known bugs are DEFINITELY an issue I’d also like to see addressed, but this post is so steeped in hivemind ideas and misinformation I doubt any ANet employee will actually bother answering.

Luka.6831:

Ill just copy paste what Ive said in another topic about our profession and the latest patch

1) Mesmer is a PvP class, like in Gw1
2) Therefore PvP balance is their top priority (and then hopefully traits)
3) Mesmer will become better in PvE with expansions and new content (skills etc.)
4) Real Mesmer players choose it for style and concept, not power or popularity
5) Chaos Armor got buffed

With all due respect:

1-2: No class should be “Well that’s the PVP clas, so it’s OK if they can’t hold up in PvE.” Nor the reverse. All professions should have viable builds for any role. That’s the goal Anet set out for, and I support that goal.

3) Later content is not now. While i agree ALL professions will get better with time 9ew hope); I’m a big fan of starting now so that happens sooner.

4) I agree; and as a former GW1 Mesmer I am all about that. I didn’t pick pink butterflies for the color Also, I don’t ask for popularity or power. I don’t want to be the #1 prof for ANYTHING. I ask for rough equivalency: That most of the time, Most mesmers can be effectively similar in strength to most members of and other profession. That’s what “balance” means to me. It will never be perfect, but get it as close as you can. And right now, I feel it is not.

5) And whether that means anything is debatable. I love the idea behind CA; in practice I’m unerwhelmed. Some brief protection, a random stack of a condition, and confusion…which is far from awesome in PvE still. And before you say “PvP skill”…Confusion mesmers were awesome in PvE in GW1.

MLieBennett.9031:

I must be missing something here.

I can never get my Shatter for 15k+ damage. That would mean each shatter hit for 3.75k+ damage each with all of them crits. Which with a plus 88% Crit dmg (Which would need 30 Duelist, all Zerker’s exotic, and All Divinity), would be over 1575 per Mind Wrack hit on a non-crit. Step a bit further back without Mental Torment, and its 1313+ per clone shatter on a normal hit when shattering 4x (with IP).

… How? What are you using to get that high of a Mind Wrack damage on a 4x Shatter? I quite literally can’t figure that out.

The easiest way is in PvP. You can’t get QUITE that high in PvE solo (I’ve had upwards of 12k though), but in WvW on an upleveled lowbie you can easily get that. However, if you throw in some nice food buffs (like Curry Butternut soup which is 100 precision and 10% crit dmg) and some might stacks and/or vulnerability in any kind of group play, it’s quite easy (I’ve actually gotten over 18k once in WvW).

Xyrm.5602:

The “assumption” I made may not be fact, but the vast majority of people who voiced the “concerns” you mentioned were copying this kind of build from someone like Taugrim or Team Legacy or the like. It wasn’t meant to be specifically at you, but since you decided to take up the mantle to represent these people, you have to be prepared to understand WHY they are saying this. Also, it wasn’t my intent to be hostile, so I’m sorry if it came out that way. I’m just frustrated by the continued ignorance on these boards, both surrounding mesmers and dungeons.

Apology accepted; I understand your feelings on the matter. Just keep in mind that even if 10,000 voices are wrong; when they’re the majority they’re right be virtue of being the majority.

Nope, that’s not true at all. A lot of rangers are complaining that their pets are a detriment in dungeons, but a lot of them don’t even know that you can set your pet to passive or recall them to you! Most of these posts are borne out of ignorance because the majority of players are unimaginative and look up their builds online and have no idea of the context or purpose, or what the strengths/weakness tradeoffs are for that purpose.

Regarding Rangers: You’re right, except keeping them out of combat more or less negates their entire purpose. Unless you keep them as a buff bot. As to the rest..partly true. And partly, There’s a lot of vagueness/lack of transparency on how some mechanics work, so getting solid theorycrafting like on WoW is a lot tougher.

2.5 seconds is hardly any time at all. As for travel time, we have multiple tools to get places more quickly (Sword 3, blink), so that’s less of an issue. As for clone travel time, it’s nto that bad if you’re on a target; only if they are doing nothing but running away from you is it an issue, in which case they will die anyway from staff or GS auto attacks.

2.5 seconds is a lifetime in twitchy combat, and GW2 is to some extent twitchier than most MMOs. Both blink and iLeap have short range, and we don’t really have much in the way of passive movement speed. if you know where a crowd is gonna spawn, I’ll make the argument for you that portal makes your life MUCh easier, when it’s off CD. But that’s still not that often. Regarding clone travel time, bear in mind we’re talking PvE; specifically large events with crowds of mobs (Orr). Running away isn’t the problem; it’s mobs dying before you have time to get decent damage on them because of the horde of other people hitting harder from further range and with less ramp up.

Staff 5 is still INCREDIBLY strong, but the problem is even though most people know it, they use it incorrectly. It is a better defensive spell than offensive, in fact it almost always gives Aegis as part of its random buffs. THis means you SHOULD drop it on FRIENDLIES, not enemies (plus this way, it works better with combos to give chaos armor or confusing projectiles).

I agree with two concerns:

1) All that confusion damage from the combos should go to us for event damage credit (unconfirmed if it does at this time, pretty sure it doesn’t)

2) Defensive play does not get you loot in events; and those are the only viable way to earn the hundreds of cloth/leather/other mats you need to craft decent gear and/or make legendaries. Nor does it even get you credit for events. For every one you get a gold just for showing up to; there’s some where you work your butt off to get bronze.

It could be argued the builds that existed before were actually LIMITING diversity by seeming to be the only “right” option in PvP, especially for tPvP. The known bugs are DEFINITELY an issue I’d also like to see addressed, but this post is so steeped in hivemind ideas and misinformation I doubt any ANet employee will actually bother answering.

And I’d agree about those builds limiting pvp diversity. but now, as a response, Anet appears to be limiting PvE diversity. I feel this is not the proper response.

Weak dps ? Weak aoe ?

While leveling (ie with noob gear) I always had to salvage/destroy crap during DEs because my inventory was full, and i wasnt using 4 slots bags since im tailor haha

hint Greatsword is … great !
Only the autoattack is not aoe, the 3-skill is small size aoe but hits hard then we have 2 and 4-skills = rofl@spambignumbers.com and 5-skill is good enough to help tagging mobs too

Power/crit build is mandatory is u wanna deal decent dmg, but i guess its same with any class.
Do not forget our phantasm inherit our stats, ie if u have 2k attack and 5% crit then your phantasms gonna do low dmg, if you have 3k+ power and 50% crit then watch and smile.

You know what? I think if the phantasms had some more health, a lot of these problems wouldn’t be so bad. The greatsword has always been solid, and the nerf doesn’t really affect it much anyway.

..But what if you don’t want to use it?
I don’t use Sword/Sword and tbh Greatsword feels too easy/simple. If you’re not going pure DPS here, these nerfs really screw you.

But yeah hearing Anets mentality behind the changes would really put my heart at ease.

Have you seen a dev in mesmer section? Me neither.
If you wan’t changes on mesmer, post in other classes or sPvP sections.

Devs don’t post here. The only argument against fixing Mesmers are “Oh they’re a PvP class PvE doesn’t matter.”

CeCaKonVeu.5734:

Weak dps ? Weak aoe ?

While leveling (ie with noob gear) I always had to salvage/destroy crap during DEs because my inventory was full, and i wasnt using 4 slots bags since im tailor haha

hint Greatsword is … great !
Only the autoattack is not aoe, the 3-skill is small size aoe but hits hard then we have 2 and 4-skills = rofl@spambignumbers.com and 5-skill is good enough to help tagging mobs too

Power/crit build is mandatory is u wanna deal decent dmg, but i guess its same with any class.
Do not forget our phantasm inherit our stats, ie if u have 2k attack and 5% crit then your phantasms gonna do low dmg, if you have 3k+ power and 50% crit then watch and smile.

Please keep in mind when it comes to aoe, the concern here is not the damage numbers. Chaos Storm, Warden, zerker, Shatter…ALL do great damage.

The problem is they require longer time to do that damage than most other profession’s AoEs, and often from shorter range. Also, the death of the targeted mob kills illusions, so if whichever one you summoned on just happens to get focused down first, your illusions poof and do no damage.

To the other posters, Anet has been on the class threads before, quite often in beta in fact. Please keep this constructive. Thank you.

Terrant.2903:

Just keep in mind that even if 10,000 voices are wrong; when they’re the majority they’re right be virtue of being the majority.

There are not 10,000 voices. There are just some shatter and crit illusion players, crying because they can’t own every mob in PvE like 2 days ago.

Terrant.2903:

And I’d agree about those builds limiting pvp diversity. but now, as a response, Anet appears to be limiting PvE diversity. I feel this is not the proper response

You wrong. Having 2 OP builds limits PvE diversity.
Balancing means than you can choose other builds without losing efficency.
Before patch, using a different build from shatter or crit illusions was not good in dps.

The changes to Mesmers, in my eyes, don’t entirely make sense.
Mesmers have two big concerns with the 7th’s patch: Phantasm changes and Chaos Storm changes. I will detail them individually.

They make perfect sense.

1. iD, iW, and iS cooldowns were really kitten short. They could drop 5k-9k damage shots every 4-6 seconds. You could already summon 2 of them at the start of any fight. That’s like a Warrior dropping 2 Eviscerates, except you don’t have to run into melee, and the phantasms can be utilized for additional purposes.

I currently run with iBerserker and iWarden, and the cooldowns on those (without the Focus trait, mind you) are sufficient for general PvP gameplay.

Currently, the cooldown on the 3 nerfed phantasms are low enough that it is slightly (not hugely, but slightly) unreasonable to demand that players kill them continuously in a bunker build.

2. Chaos Storm is retardedly powerful. It’s literally one of the most powerful abilities in the entire game. It Aegises you more frequently than a traited Guardian, and has a surplus of other effects. The clincher in this nerf is that leap-ethereal gives you Chaos Armor, which becomes redundant as skill4 if you can pop it so often from the combo. Personally I’m a bit annoyed by the extremity of the nerf, but it makes sense.

… How? What are you using to get that high of a Mind Wrack damage on a 4x Shatter? I quite literally can’t figure that out.

He’s exaggerating. You get 15k MWs with 4x on a lowbie WvW. In sPvP the numbers go down significantly.

1-2: No class should be “Well that’s the PVP clas, so it’s OK if they can’t hold up in PvE.” Nor the reverse. All professions should have viable builds for any role. That’s the goal Anet set out for, and I support that goal.

Mesmers are fine at PvE.

The only segments of gameplay where Mesmers are subpar are at:

1. Orr DE farming (note: several other classes not named “ENGINEER”, “GUARDIAN”, or “ELEMENTALIST” are in the same boat).

2. 100% map exploration. Mesmers are slightly slower on foot.

For all other segments of PvE gameplay, Mesmers are on par if not better than other classes.

Well…
In GW1 – mesmers was REALLY hard class for PvE. In GW2 – we have no problems. At all.

Yes, other classes (to be honest – ALL of them) are much more easy. But, we all knew that, when we chose to play mesmer.
I prefer to play hard and rare class, instead of strong but simple and popular.

Some skills/traits must be tweaked, yes. But we don’t need to be simple an straight forward like some other strong classes for beginners.

PS sry for my English
PPS and Moa must be nerfed. Because if it will not be – ANet will nerf all of our other skills.

As I wrote on guru weeks ago, the mesmer will see many nerfs and some bug fixes.

Don’t expect anything else.

If you truly only care about “Orr DE farming”, Shatter/IP builds and Blurred Frenzy do very, very well with tagging most of the DEs. I do better with it than my Staff/Scepter/Well necro that has literally 9 different AoE damaging abilities.

However, be warned that you may get huge agro and die if you aren’t quick to react.

If the mobs last long enough to aggro a player, then you could probably use lots of other stuff to tag them.

If they only last 1 second, then no worries about the aggro from IP Shatters!

Catch-22 on the Mesmer’s side.

Several DEs have Veteran mobs

EasymodeX.4062:

1. iD, iW, and iS cooldowns were really kitten short. They could drop 5k-9k damage shots every 4-6 seconds. You could already summon 2 of them at the start of any fight. That’s like a Warrior dropping 2 Eviscerates, except you don’t have to run into melee, and the phantasms can be utilized for additional purposes.

I currently run with iBerserker and iWarden, and the cooldowns on those (without the Focus trait, mind you) are sufficient for general PvP gameplay.

PvP. We’re not talking about that here. And to be honest, I agre with your points. Phantasm damage on a Legion build was probably too high. My question is why increase the CDs? Why not decrease the damage itself instead?

Here’s the reasoning. You are right. I can open a fight by dropping iDuelist, switching, dropping zerker. Then wait for one of those two cooldowns to expire, and drop whichever comes up faster (zerker I think). Except that’s only good, again, for PvP.

in PvE, anything short of a boss dies so fast the phants often don’t have a chance to attack (especially because, again, they are not attacking on summon in some circumenstances). They poof, and your cooldown is wasted. And now, it’s longer than ever. If the phantasms were doing too much damage, why not leave the CD as is and reduce the damage? Simple as that.

Currently, the cooldown on the 3 nerfed phantasms are low enough that it is slightly (not hugely, but slightly) unreasonable to demand that players kill them continuously in a bunker build.

I will accept that. Again, it’s solely from a pvp perspective. Heck, an sPvp-only perspective. I dislike the idea of balancing an entire class around one aspect.

2. Chaos Storm is retardedly powerful. It’s literally one of the most powerful abilities in the entire game. It Aegises you more frequently than a traited Guardian, and has a surplus of other effects. The clincher in this nerf is that leap-ethereal gives you Chaos Armor, which becomes redundant as skill4 if you can pop it so often from the combo. Personally I’m a bit annoyed by the extremity of the nerf, but it makes sense.

I agree that it’s powerful, but not as much as you think. If chaos armor is the problem…we have two leap skills, null field, and feedback. Those plus staff 4 mean an impressive CA uptime as it is. If it’s Aegis…reprogram the alogrithm that causes “random” (cause nothing’s really ranom in computers) buffs to Aegis less often. as it stands chaos storm is the only Mesmer AoE that we have complete control over the positioning and duration of. Illusions get dispersed/killed before they can pop. Berserker’s whirl cannot be directly controlled, and he could just whirl away from the crowd of mobs and hit them less often. Which is fine. That’s why we have chaos storm as an offensive ability. I don’t argue that weakening the powers may have been necessary. I just think that cooldown changes weren’t the best way to go about it.

Mesmers are fine at PvE.

The only segments of gameplay where Mesmers are subpar are at:

1. Orr DE farming (note: several other classes not named “ENGINEER”, “GUARDIAN”, or “ELEMENTALIST” are in the same boat).

Welcome to the majority of PvE gameplay post-80. The only thing else we have is dungeons; but the real sources of loot/money/mats are DEs, because dungeon drops are still sub-par for the time and challenge.

Also, I’d disagree with you about other classes being in the same boat. Rangers have fantastic aoe farming power. Warriors do as well with the right builds. Necros have more decent aoes than single target spells. Thief has some decent options as well with LDB, shortbow 2, and shortbow 4 (although they are closer to Mesmers in that those last two abilities take time to set up, and mobs can sometimes die before the explosions land)

in PvE, anything short of a boss dies so fast the phants often don’t have a chance to attack (especially because, again, they are not attacking on summon in some circumenstances). They poof, and your cooldown is wasted. And now, it’s longer than ever. If the phantasms were doing too much damage, why not leave the CD as is and reduce the damage? Simple as that.

From a PvP perspective, it is better to nerf the cooldown rather than the damage, because the primary issue was the ease (or difficulty) of continuously swapping to the iD/iW to drop it.

For PvE, the adjustment is to stop overallocating phantasms to single mobs.

If you are fighting two mobs, do not drop the phantasm on both (unless you really need to).

Also, your example only exists for solo farming trash mobs. In that context, the game is so easy nothing matters.

I agree that it’s powerful, but not as much as you think. If chaos armor is the problem…we have two leap skills, null field, and feedback. Those plus staff 4 mean an impressive CA uptime as it is.

That’s part of the issue. Staff already includes a leap within its toolset to combo on ethereal.

That’s why we have chaos storm as an offensive ability. I don’t argue that weakining the powers may have been necessary. I just think that cooldown changes weren’t the best way to go about it.

Personally, I’d prefer to nerf the frequency of an ability rather than the potency. I like big plays in combat, rather than several little plays. Makes the game way more fun.

As I said, I think the cooldown is a little too long, but I think they made the right type of change.

Also, I’d disagree with you about other classes being in the same boat. Rangers have fantastic aoe farming power. Warriors do as well with the right builds. Necros have more decent aoes than single target spells. Thief has some decent options as well with LDB, shortbow 2, and shortbow 4 (although they are closer to Mesmers in that those last two abilities take time to set up, and mobs can sometimes die before the explosions land)

These are not great options due to cooldown and/or resource constraints. Rangers probably come out slightly ahead of Mesmers, but have to work hard for it, and come out significantly behind the top 3. Necros are “ok” but suffer the same issues. Thieves are bad due to resource limitations preventing spam.

Mesmers are limited, but have some key tools:

IP Mind Wrack is instant, and provides 5-15 targets of tagging. IP Cry also does direct damage, which many players overlook — but it will tag. iBerserker can tag up to 15 targets and gets off pretty quick despite being a phantasm. SS is a 1200 range instant. Mind Stab is really fast. Mesmers have to work for it, but the payoff is not terrible.

Also, this is why GW2 is not a PvE game if the PvE content begins and ends at Orr DEs.

Terrant.2903:

Also, I’d disagree with you about other classes being in the same boat. Rangers have fantastic aoe farming power. Warriors do as well with the right builds. Necros have more decent aoes than single target spells. Thief has some decent options as well with LDB, shortbow 2, and shortbow 4 (although they are closer to Mesmers in that those last two abilities take time to set up, and mobs can sometimes die before the explosions land)

My IP/Sword Mesmer can farm DEs much better than my 9-AoE-Skills Necromancer.

Quoting function is being dumb, but this is a reply to Easymodex.

IP Mind Wrack is instant, and provides 5-15 targets of tagging. IP Cry also does direct damage, which many players overlook — but it will tag.

A +0 IP (no illusions out) shatter will not do enough damage to earn loot. It might get enough for credit for the event itself, but not loot. And loot is pretty much the core of the PvE endgame right now.

iBerserker can tag up to 15 targets and gets off pretty quick despite being a phantasm.

If it attacks as soon as dropped. If not, it or its target dies before it gets to do anything.

BTW I agree with you about dropping your phatns on different targets, I do that too. But it can still be a pain.

SS is a 1200 range instant.

SS is a 1200 range that does a teeny bit of damage in its instant hit. It needs all three
hits before it’s enough to mean anything. Then target another enemy and fire. It also feels (to me) like there’s a delay switching targets with that skill.

Personally, I wish it did a teeny bit of burst aoe damage to enemies around its target in a small (mind stab) radius. hell, I’d take that as a grandmaster trait.

Mind Stab is really fast. Mesmers have to work for it, but the payoff is not terrible.

It’s better than it was but still needs work. VERY small aoe burst radius for locking you in place for 2 seconds.

Also, this is why GW2 is not a PvE game if the PvE content begins and ends at Orr DEs.

That’s a whole ‘nother argument, and I’d agree. They need to add more PvE content. Better dungeon drops, more story quests that don’t have a thing to do with Trahearne…whatever. But as it stands if you aren’t a PvP player, the best thing to do once you hit 80 is farm DEs, and mesmers have problems there. They want to add more rewarding PvE content so we’re NOT all stuck doing that, sign me up.

A +0 IP (no illusions out) shatter will not do enough damage to earn loot.

Yes, it will. I crit for 3k with it. I hope that’s enough for loot credit, keeping in mind loot is not 100% on mobs.

SS is a 1200 range that does a teeny bit of damage in its instant hit. It needs all three
hits before it’s enough to mean anything.

I crit for 850 per tick. It also ticks very quickly FWIW.

It’s better than it was but still needs work. VERY small aoe burst radius for locking you in place for 2 seconds.

It locks you in place for 0.5 seconds.

Stop making up fantasy.

I just want them to make up their mind with this clone business.

As it stands it feels like we outclass Minionmancers due to a combination of their bugged traits and awful AI. This is stupid. I don’t want to play a minion master, I want to play a misdirection master. Instead, minions are pretty much grafted on to my class mechanic with zero negotiation as to that fact, while Necromancers can ignore theirs entirely.

I don’t really suffer from effectiveness issues, it’s just the class mechanics that bug me. It doesn’t feel like a Mesmer, it feels like a magic knight. A really flamboyant one, at that.

EasymodeX.4062:

A +0 IP (no illusions out) shatter will not do enough damage to earn loot.

Yes, it will. I crit for 3k with it. I hope that’s enough for loot credit, keeping in mind loot is not 100% on mobs.

This is part of this thread I don’t get. The numbers posted by “mesmer is fine” folks seem to be completely out of touch with my experience. Maybe that’s because I’m just wearing rare armor / exotic weapons and don’t have that last wave of armor yet; if the rare→exotic armor upgrade is that amazing, well, perhaps that’s what I’m missing.

Elsewhere in the thread, proponents of “mesmer is fine” have yet to address the fact that 2.5 seconds (for full illusions) is greater than 0 seconds (the time it takes most other classes with AoE to use it), the travel time which Terrant brings up, the fact that event participation code doesn’t seem to attribute confusion damage from CS to the mesmer who spawned it, etc.

I don’t know many Mesmers who are unhappy in pvp / wvw — and I don’t think they were unstoppable juggernauts who needed a nerf beatdown, either. Maybe in arena, I’ve mainly done wvwvw. So the whole “in pvp we rock” is sort of irrelevant to this thread.

The one necro who apparently can’t tag stuff in orr, idk what to tell you. You’re kind of in the minority on this complaint, unlike a lot of the folks here on the board.

One of the suspicions I have that is not expressed in this thread is that damage in general is not counted correctly for mesmers in DEs. Especially in dragon DEs I have found that if I focus on staff, buff allies with CS, stack confuse with scepter and block projos with focus, I’ll often get bronze or nothing. If I nuke my face off with GS + sword/pistol or sword/focus and just go for dps, I’ll get gold…but it doesn’t really feel like I bring anything to the table in that config that another class doesn’t bring more of.

Terrant.2903:

Just keep in mind that even if 10,000 voices are wrong; when they’re the majority they’re right be virtue of being the majority.

I find this a very… let’s say… american perspective.

In their own little world, they are right, yes. Objectively speaking they’re not, unless the frame of reference is again constructed by the exact same 10000 people who are wrongly agreeing on something (and then they’re right by definition already, not wrong).

As an example, if you stand in front of an oncoming car and state “This car won’t hurt me”, you might be wrong.
If you put 10000 people in front of an oncoming crashing plane, they can all state “This plane crash won’t hurt me”, and I suspect the plane crashing doesn’t care about them being the majority by 10000 : 1 or not, sorry. :P

We aren’t talking about concrete variables here, tho. Game balance incorporates a lot – A LOT – of human variables (perception, interface, skill, and even bugs/glitches) that aren’t governed by physical constants. A large part of gaming is opinion and experience, not raw numbers. And these are what will make a game succeed or not. You can have the most rightly balanced by the numbers game in existence, but if the gamers playing it are not having fun b/c they feel they are being treated unfairly (whether they really are or not)), it’s still wrong for the gaming community.

In short, its better for the game to feel balanced than to actually be balanced.

Oh ofc, yes.
The problem would be that the game is so young that no “solidified” player opinion exists yet.

Like in WoW, everyone by now knows that Hunter is a newbie class (this evolved out of their autoattack-only setup in Vanilla WoW), that Warriors live from overpowered burst so they are either overpowered or useless, that Paladins are untouchably annoying, that Resto Shamans are overpowered in PvP in return for usually being weak in PvE…
This all took a lot of time to evolve. Sure by now it’s worth balancing for player expectations, but GW2 is highly in flux still.

This is part of this thread I don’t get. The numbers posted by “mesmer is fine” folks seem to be completely out of touch with my experience.

It is slightly tongue-in-cheek, since I have nearly full exotic Berserker gear (subpar slots are masterwork Berserker, so the stats are close). I realize that many players will not have that degree of gear, so they cannot expect to hit quite that hard. However, exceeding 2k on a crit should be easy, and 2k should be more than sufficient to tag mobs.

I have about 100% bonus crit damage and 3400 attack. That means my crits deal 250% damage. My Mind Wrack number was real, but /shrug, not real for everyone.

Maybe that’s because I’m just wearing rare armor / exotic weapons and don’t have that last wave of armor yet; if the rare?exotic armor upgrade is that amazing, well, perhaps that’s what I’m missing.

Are you wearing Berserker gear? The quality of gear is second to having the right itemization.

The Orr DE race is about direct damage. If you’re running Rampager gear like a lot of Sharper-Image-crutchers, no offense, but you’re Doing It Wrong™. At least for Orr DE.

Elsewhere in the thread, proponents of “mesmer is fine” have yet to address the fact that 2.5 seconds (for full illusions) is greater than 0 seconds (the time it takes most other classes with AoE to use it), the travel time which Terrant brings up,

No. IP Shatter is ZERO seconds. True zero, also. The instant you hit the button, you deal damage.

Engi actually has a half second delay. Ele has RNG on Meteor Shower, and a slight delay on their other AOE. IP Shatter is faster than Engi/Ele/Guardian spam. Too bad it’s on a cooldown, even though you get 2 shots (Cry will also tag since it deals direct damage).

iBerserker is the only question, and it deals damage about a second after you prezz teh button. If you use “target nearest” to get a target, you don’t have to wait for the mobs to fade in. You can target them immediately as they spawn.

In short, its better for the game to feel balanced than to actually be balanced.

Perceptions change and evolve.

EasymodeX.4062:

Elsewhere in the thread, proponents of “mesmer is fine” have yet to address the fact that 2.5 seconds (for full illusions) is greater than 0 seconds (the time it takes most other classes with AoE to use it), the travel time which Terrant brings up,

No. IP Shatter is ZERO seconds. True zero, also. The instant you hit the button, you deal damage.

IP shatter requires mesmer travel time, which is not instant. I believe that was Terrant’s message: mesmer running travel time <<< GTAOE travel time. If you know where the spawn will happen and can get there, no big deal. If not… well, that’s why I bring Blink to massive DEs.

In short, its better for the game to feel balanced than to actually be balanced.

Perceptions change and evolve.

That’s the real reason why MMO game balancing never ends, no matter how long a game goes on even without new expansions.

IP shatter requires mesmer travel time, which is not instant. I believe that was Terrant’s message: mesmer running travel time <<< GTAOE travel time. If you know where the spawn will happen and can get there, no big deal. If not… well, that’s why I bring Blink to massive DEs.

Well, that’s the thing: if a player is actually “farming” Orr DEs at all, they should know where all the mobs spawn (or where they become vulnerable). That should be a non-factor after the initial learning curve. Knowing where/when the mobs are attackable is easily the #1 most important aspect of Orr DEs, and an order of magnitude more relevant to tagging than class or build.

So where’s ANet in this “dialogue”? Feel more like a monologue to me since the devs obviously don’t care.

Lol the only thing I can say to Anet is kudos for trying to keep this class in check, because I know if I was in their shoes, it would be like a living hell to balance a class like Mesmer. Cause seriously it’s super tricky right now! I’m just hoping our PvE doesn’t get totally nerfed into the ground due to our PvP.

EasymodeX.4062:

IP shatter requires mesmer travel time, which is not instant. I believe that was Terrant’s message: mesmer running travel time <<< GTAOE travel time. If you know where the spawn will happen and can get there, no big deal. If not… well, that’s why I bring Blink to massive DEs.

Well, that’s the thing: if a player is actually “farming” Orr DEs at all, they should know where all the mobs spawn (or where they become vulnerable). That should be a non-factor after the initial learning curve. Knowing where/when the mobs are attackable is easily the #1 most important aspect of Orr DEs, and an order of magnitude more relevant to tagging than class or build.

This still doesn’t take one thing into account: spontaneous AOE. Any other class in the game can drop nearly any of their aoes a second or two before the mob starts spawning, so that it is hitting the mob the instant it is up. Have a crowd of people doing that, and mobs die pretty fast.

The Mesmer on the other hand has to summon three clones. maybe, MAYBE in a all power build (or all pre build on a crit), a +0 IP shatter will do enough to get you loot off them. In personal experience, it doesn’t.

Again, my real worry with this is the best way for us to spontaneously cast AOE was Chaos Storm, which now can be used even less often than before due to the nerf, To me, once again, changing the damage coefficients involved would have prevented the problems in sPvP that probably prompted this nerf without affecting everyone else

TL;DR of all my posts here: ANet’s changes seem focused around sPvP; many of us play other parts of the game. I don’t believe the decisions made were the most equitable solution and would have loved to see a response from someone that actually knows why they were made justifying them.