Guild Wars 2

Now you are making considerations about the overall game balancing… my question is: have you tried other professions before saying that yours is not overpowered compared to them?

Yup, I have a 52 Guardian and a 65 Engineer besides my 80 mesmer. I won’t accuse them of face rolling, both classes do have some quite complex chains and theories behind getting the most out of them as I suspect is true of most classes, but engineer and guardian both do vastly more damage/have better support options, with far less effort.

Ryuujin.8236:

Now you are making considerations about the overall game balancing… my question is: have you tried other professions before saying that yours is not overpowered compared to them?

Yup, I have a 52 Guardian and a 65 Engineer besides my 80 mesmer. I won’t accuse them of face rolling, both classes do have some quite complex chains and theories behind getting the most out of them as I suspect is true of most classes, but engineer and guardian both do vastly more damage/have better support options, with far less effort.

I think you didn’t understand my question. I’ve asked if you tried all professions at least in sPvP/tPvP, that is the main gamemode in which game unbalancing is felt more strongly.
You are making another assumption. Guardians performs way too good at the moment, both in PvE that in PvP. You should know how guardians are requested in dungeon groups and in tPvP teams, which is a sign of a bad game balancing, considering that ANet wanted to put all professions at the same level.

Can’t talk about Engineer, because it is the only profession I didn’t try enough, but it doesn’t look like people are complaining about them being weak.

You are mostly playing PvE, in which Mesmer is quite weak at it as far I’ve heard, isn’t it? The complains about Mesmers being OP are strictly related about sPvP/tPvP, which is a quite important game mode. They should split PvP and PvE balancing as they did in Guild Wars, where mesmers were in the same situation, they were extremely weak in PvE but extremely strong in PvP… They were nerfed in PvP and buffed in PvE!

I would like to invite you to try out Necromancers and Elementalists, the other 2 caster professions with Mesmer, to realize how game balancing is broken.

sorrow.2364:

You are mostly playing PvE, in which Mesmer is quite weak at it as far I’ve heard, isn’t it?

so you haven’t really played mesmer, what can you know about a class you don’t play?
and you want the class nerfed, so u want it to be bad at PvE and PvP both
Sure, yeah, that seems about right

you are bad and you cant beat a mesmer in PvP so, sure lets nerf it, that sounds right!

Stop complaining and go learn more about the game!

sorrow.2364:

I think you didn’t understand my question. I’ve asked if you tried all professions at least in sPvP/tPvP, that is the main gamemode in which game unbalancing is felt more strongly.
You are making another assumption. Guardians performs way too good at the moment, both in PvE that in PvP. You should know how guardians are requested in dungeon groups and in tPvP teams, which is a sign of a bad game balancing, considering that ANet wanted to put all professions at the same level.

Can’t talk about Engineer, because it is the only profession I didn’t try enough, but it doesn’t look like people are complaining about them being weak.

You are mostly playing PvE, in which Mesmer is quite weak at it as far I’ve heard, isn’t it? The complains about Mesmers being OP are strictly related about sPvP/tPvP, which is a quite important game mode. They should split PvP and PvE balancing as they did in Guild Wars, where mesmers were in the same situation, they were extremely weak in PvE but extremely strong in PvP… They were nerfed in PvP and buffed in PvE!

I would like to invite you to try out Necromancers and Elementalists, the other 2 caster professions with Mesmer, to realize how game balancing is broken.

Once again proving that you are in fact a bad player. If you actually bother to read the rest of the posts in this forum, very few people have a problem dealing with Moa Morph, and I have also stated ways in which I deal with the skill quite effectively. Just because you can’t figure it out doesn’t make it broken.

And just FYI if you have Ctrl +T up on a mesmer and the BIG RED ICON suddenly disappears, you know exactly when he went into stealth and that there is a 98% chance that stealth will last exactly 3 seconds (the 2 most used stealth skills being the prestige and Decoy.) Between that and the casting time of Moa, its easy to figure out when to dodge or block.

To top it off, you also seem to believe that it is somehow HARDER to kill AI enemies that have discernible attack patterns than it is to kill a human player with a full skill bar and a functioning brain.

I actually use Moa when I’m being a scout/spotter (or solo supply camp harassment) in WvW, because it turns a 3v1 into a managable 2v1 and helps me play the attrition game until I can either gtfo or have backup come in. And I’ve used it to great success, but I have also had it FAIL flat out because, you know, I can be knocked down, stunned, dazed, blocked, Invulnerable, etc. Or you know, DODGE?

If you’re going against a Thief and he stealths, you have to expect an opener that’ll probably be painful and respond accordingly. When a Mesmer stealths, the way to act accordingly be prepared to dodge a Moa the second you see her again. And that has, and will continue, to be put to use by people far more skilled than the OP.

For a three minute cooldown, Moa isn’t that long of a duration, and it roots the caster and is highly telegraphed. People looked at Conditions as a whole as Overpowered (ignoring Toughness, stackable, keeps doing damage even after the target’s left). Then people started bringing Condition Removal, and learned to deal with it. Hundred Blades has a few really really obvious set ups, and people used to think it was too good, until people that don’t generally suck found ways to counter it and the community itself moved beyond it.

Terrible players will look at it and see it as brokenly overpowered, rather than accept their lack of skill or insight in seeking a counter. That is what makes them terrible players.

Sure, but when you fight a backstab thief, a hundred blades warrior, or someone who deals heavy condition damage, at no point do you find yourself unable to actually play your class for 10 consecutive seconds. That’s the issue.

You could give Moa a 30 minute cooldown for all I care, it’s still a poor idea for a skill regardless of how often it can be used.

ConterK.3972:

sorrow.2364:

You are mostly playing PvE, in which Mesmer is quite weak at it as far I’ve heard, isn’t it?

so you haven’t really played mesmer, what can you know about a class you don’t play?
and you want the class nerfed, so u want it to be bad at PvE and PvP both
Sure, yeah, that seems about right

you are bad and you cant beat a mesmer in PvP so, sure lets nerf it, that sounds right!

Stop complaining and go learn more about the game!

Soo… You are taking one of my statement, manipulate it to match your intentions and use it against me without even reading the posts I made before which answer your stupid personal attack.
Read all my previous posts and you get the answer to what you said, if you are too lazy to do that, please, don’t join the argument and don’t attack people.

Jungle Quack.1368:

Once again proving that you are in fact a bad player. If you actually bother to read the rest of the posts in this forum, very few people have a problem dealing with Moa Morph, and I have also stated ways in which I deal with the skill quite effectively. Just because you can’t figure it out doesn’t make it broken.

And just FYI if you have Ctrl +T up on a mesmer and the BIG RED ICON suddenly disappears, you know exactly when he went into stealth and that there is a 98% chance that stealth will last exactly 3 seconds (the 2 most used stealth skills being the prestige and Decoy.) Between that and the casting time of Moa, its easy to figure out when to dodge or block.

To top it off, you also seem to believe that it is somehow HARDER to kill AI enemies that have discernible attack patterns than it is to kill a human player with a full skill bar and a functioning brain.

Exactly, what I’ve said make you think I’m a bad player? This is another stupid assumption you made about me.
If you bother to read the sPvP forum, you’ll see that many people have problems dealing with Moa Morph but not because it isn’t counterable, because it is overpowered, which, as I said almost hundred times, is different.

So, your effective way to counter Moa is spamming your precious 60 sec cooldown CC in the air or wasting one of your 2 dodges, that can be way more useful used on an hypothetical Thief/Warrior who is trying to burst you down at the same time, hoping that the Mesmer is still around the place he disappeared and he is casting Moa Morph on you. Wow, seems effective. Now, tell me which skill requires the same attention to be countered and, if not countered, makes you useless for 10 seconds and probably let you die.

I don’t believe that is harder to kill AI enemies than humans, again when did you understood that?

I know my english could be quite bad since it isn’t my mother language, but I didn’t think that people have so much difficulties to understand what I say.

Kintari.4172:

Sure, but when you fight a backstab thief, a hundred blades warrior, or someone who deals heavy condition damage, at no point do you find yourself unable to actually play your class for 10 consecutive seconds. That’s the issue.

You could give Moa a 30 minute cooldown for all I care, it’s still a poor idea for a skill regardless of how often it can be used.

When people were getting shredded by Hundred Blades Warriors, they weren’t getting 10 seconds to live (because they played badly). If an Elementalist can chain a single move into a Tornado, they’re stripping away the ability to actually play your chosen Profession, because they’re knocking you flat on your kitten again and again (and don’t root the caster, or need stealth to pull off, huh go figure).

The only difference is, the Mesmer flat out tells you that you’re not in control. It takes away the illusion, if you will. Because if you’re being ragdolled by a Tornado, you’re not in control even if you want to think you are. If you missed the tell on Hundred Blades, you didn’t have 10 seconds to live. You had no control over your character, and were dead almost instantly.

But if giving up Time Warp for 10 seconds of single target Passify is what’s killing you then find a way to counter it. Knockdown, stun, block, daze, or take lessons from Rip Torn: Dodge, dip, duck, dive and dodge. Moa itself isn’t even the reason you die. The fact that people don’t know how to respond to it before (or stand there like a moron after) is what gets them killed. Anyone that can see the telegraph can dodge. Anyone that knows the Mesmer went into stealth will watch for her to come out (stealth isn’t long enough), and dodge. Moa’s on cooldown and wasted. Elite skill, zero effect.

If you have a problem, skill up.

Hammerheart.1426:

I keep hearing how Moa has a “long cooldown.”

Compared to other elites it has a pretty average cooldown.

Elites with a CD of 180;
Moa Morph
Tome of Courage
Tome of Wrath
Rampage
Supply Crate
Thieves Guild
Fiery Greatsword
Tornado
Lich Form (Moa negated)
Plague Form (Moa negated)

I would say any of those is just as much a game changer as Moa is. Not to mention that Plague Form can negate Moa if you use the blind one. Which, is what I do when I’m in Plague Form, an AoE blind the entire time.

Mac.1936

I would say any of those is just as much a game changer as Moa is. Not to mention that Plague Form can negate Moa if you use the blind one. Which, is what I do when I’m in Plague Form, an AoE blind the entire time.

Exactly. Thank you, for this.

I mean honestly, how many times have people been killed by Thieves Guild, Tome of Wrath, Lich Form, because you were perma blinded from Plague Form, because everyone got healed from Tome of Courage, etc? Plenty.

How many times have you been killed due to Moa? For me it’s once.

Mac.1936:

I mean honestly, how many times have people been killed by Thieves Guild, Tome of Wrath, Lich Form, because everyone got healed from Tome of Courage, etc? Plenty.

How many times have you been killed due to Moa? For me it’s once.

I’ve used it to kill someone who wasn’t the Moa… or at least, to not die immediately when I’m overwhelmed.

The big problem is, it visually tells you you’re not in control of the situation. Any of the other elites still give the victims the illusion of being in control until it all goes down, but that’s all it is, an illusion. Moa tears that away off of a single person, but only one. And that’s why people hate it.

Dudes, seriously.
If you get Moaed, you are most likely to being killed if there is a Warrior/Thief or the same Mesmer around and he is smart enough to snare you down. Also, the stupid thing about Moa is that you can’t remedy once you are Moaed, compared to all Elite skills that other professions have.

You see a Tornado? No problem, switch to ranged weapon.
You see Plague Form? Go ranged.
You see Thieves Guild? Kill thieves.

How can you put a remedy to Moa? You can’t and you are most likely to be screwed.

Reactionary thinking rather than pre-emptive is why you get killed. You see Moa and you panic. That’s what gets you killed.

What does a Moa do, exactly? It takes someone’s offensive ability out of a skirmish. That’s not really helping someone die faster (most of the time, few exceptions of course), it’s helping a team survive better or push down one of the other enemy players with less counter-support to deal with.

If that Warrior (or that same Mesmer) could still pin you down and slaughter you, they didn’t need the Moa to do it and it was a waste of a cast. Really, it’s not a hard concept to get.

Kelesti.2458:

Reactionary thinking rather than pre-emptive is why you get killed. You see Moa and you panic. That’s what gets you killed.

What does a Moa do, exactly? It takes someone’s offensive ability out of a skirmish. That’s not really helping someone die faster (most of the time, few exceptions of course), it’s helping a team survive better or push down one of the other enemy players with less counter-support to deal with.

If that Warrior (or that same Mesmer) could still pin you down and slaughter you, they didn’t need the Moa to do it and it was a waste of a cast. Really, it’s not a hard concept to get.

Ignorance at it’s best here, the reason why you’re being pinned down as a Moa is because YOU CAN NOT use stun breaks or any utilities as the bird, therefore any stun after the transform will pin you and have you slaughtered. If you get stunned by a warrior or a mesmer on normal form, guess what… YOU CAN use stun break.

It can’t be clearer than that.

Hammerheart.1426:

Look, I’m not trying to get the skill nerfed into oblivion, but the fact that it takes a Necro out of Lich/Plague just irks the ever loving kitten out of me.

That’s pretty much the only reason I ever slot Moa. I can imagine the Necro’s pure rage when I land it, and I giggle.

Zogyark.4597:

Ignorance at it’s best here, the reason why you’re being pinned down as a Moa is because YOU CAN NOT use stun breaks or any utilities as the bird, therefore any stun after the transform will pin you and have you slaughtered.

You could always try dodging the stun that you know is coming after Moa.

Sidenote: This is highly inefficient since Moa already dazes, effectively. Half the stun is wasted. How silly.

The last time I was Moa’d (and it’s been a long time since that happened), I just ran away immediately, threw a dodge. I basically took about 1000 damage. Zzzz.

Zogyark.4597:

Ignorance at it’s best here, the reason why you’re being pinned down as a Moa is because YOU CAN NOT use stun breaks or any utilities as the bird, therefore any stun after the transform will pin you and have you slaughtered. If you get stunned by a warrior or a mesmer, guess what… YOU CAN use stun break.

It can’t be clearer than that.

So every Moa (especially those on high health targets as damage control) is instantly followed up by an uncounterable stun automatically? I must not be traited right.

If a Warrior (and Mesmer, lol?) are killing you in a stun, they have ways to force your stunbreak early. In which case you wouldn’t have it anyways and you’re losing a 2v1. And following that up with more snares, dazes, and immobilizes, they don’t need a Moa to control and kill you. Not the skill’s fault.

A Moa doesn’t get you killed. It gets your teammate killed when you can’t do a knockback for them to counter a stomp, or even counter-pressure. It’s not an effective 1v1 tool. It’s not an effective 2v1 tool either, because you’re already being outplayed and it’s unnecessary. If they’re casting it on you, it’s because they’re trying to tick you off, not that it’s tactically necessary or even efficient. Apparently, judging by your responses, it’s working.

EasymodeX.4062:

You could always try dodging the stun that you know is coming after Moa.

Sidenote: This is highly inefficient since Moa already dazes, effectively. Half the stun is wasted. How silly.

The last time I was Moa’d (and it’s been a long time since that happened), I just ran away immediately, threw a dodge. I basically took about 1000 damage. Zzzz.

I’m actually agreeing with EasymodeX? What the hell, man?

Kelesti.2458:

So every Moa (especially those on high health targets as damage control) is instantly followed up by an uncounterable stun automatically? I must not be traited right.

If a Warrior (and Mesmer, lol?) are killing you in a stun, they have ways to force your stunbreak early. In which case you wouldn’t have it anyways and you’re losing a 2v1. And following that up with more snares, dazes, and immobilizes, they don’t need a Moa to control and kill you. Not the skill’s fault.

A Moa doesn’t get you killed. It gets your teammate killed when you can’t do a knockback for them to counter a stomp, or even counter-pressure. It’s not an effective 1v1 tool. It’s not an effective 2v1 tool either, because you’re already being outplayed and it’s unnecessary. If they’re casting it on you, it’s because they’re trying to tick you off, not that it’s tactically necessary. Apparently, judging by your responses, it’s working.

What? The absurdity number on this thread are far more than expected.
Moa isn’t an effective 1vs1 or 2vs1 tool?

Ok, let’s analyze the average situation when facing a Mesmer with Moa Morph in his bar ready to be casted.

1vs1:
You are approaching a mesmer who is defending the trebuchet, for instance, and you want to kill him and then destroy the trebuchet.
You are playing as better as you can, killing clones the mesmer is spamming, dodging, stunlocking and so on, you may also have casted your elite skill in order to win the battle. Now, let’s suppose the Mesmer we are against is quite bad and his life bar is less than half and your is above half.
Now, the mesmer have realized he is in disadvantage and he uses Decoy and casts Moa Morph. You, because aren’t a perfect player, become a shiny Moa.
You start to run and run, wasting all your dodges, in the meantime, the mesmer is spamming all his skill randomly and we assume that at least 8k damage is dealt (just 1 illusionary unload plus some attack of the warlock). When you are out of Moa Morph you have something like 2k hp left (assuming you have 20k hp base, which is quite high), you just have to use one of your stun or waiting to your illusions to make your job aaaand… you are downed.

Now I have to go, I’m continuing this post later. But you can imagine what’s the situation in 2vs1 or 1vs2, if you can’t I’m posting it later.

1. You claim you were winning the fight, but you didn’t even force the Mesmer to pop Decoy earlier. And you even used your elite prior to that. This means you were losing the fight.

2. You were at the Treb, and you did not LOS around the hill when he Decoy’d.

3. You did not dodge the iD/iWarlock (iD particularly easy to dodge).

4. You did not LOS the iD/iW around the hill.

5. The Mesmer has Decoy and SigDom. The Mesmer used neither during the first phase of the fight where you had a modest HP advantage after using your elite. This means you are an inferior player.

Try again — the Mesmer won’t even have Moa for round 2 since its cooldown is so long.

sorrow.2364:

1vs1:
You are approaching a mesmer who is defending the trebuchet, for instance, and you want to kill him and then destroy the trebuchet.
You are playing as better as you can, killing clones the mesmer is spamming, dodging, stunlocking and so on, you may also have casted your elite skill in order to win the battle. Now, let’s suppose the Mesmer we are against is quite bad and his life bar is less than half and your is above half.
Now, the mesmer have realized he is in disadvantage and he uses Decoy and casts Moa Morph. You, because aren’t a perfect player, become a shiny Moa.

Following you so far…

You start to run and run, wasting all your dodges, in the meantime, the mesmer is spamming all his skill randomly and we assume that at least 8k damage is dealt (just 1 illusionary unload plus some attack of the warlock).

Found your problems. Two of them. You left the Duelist up while the Mesmer was stealthed. Even without the rest of this situation, if you’d have got the Mesmer down, the Duelist would have taken you with it. Second is the wasted dodges. Primary escape mechanic is running, run away. Run run run. If you’re running, you’re outranging the Unload. Only time this isn’t true is if they spent 2 seconds of your 10 second daze casting it. In which case you dodge. In fact, if they’re pistol, the two pistol skills are pretty much the only thing you need to dodge (Magic Bullet and the Unload from the Duelist). Or you’re Line of Sighting it, drop down the hill and gtfo.

But they won’t catch up to you. Mesmers have no passive speed increase, they’d have to weapon swap to a Focus for reliable swiftness. Which means that they won’t have their pistol anymore for a stun.

And while they’re chasing you off into the middle of nowhere where you’re taking no damage, no one is firing the Trebuchet, no one is defending it.

Edit: Or what EasymodeX said.

What Moa does

1. Disables all your skills including utilities and Elite
2. It counters an Elite if in use, but you can’t use an Elite to counter Moa
3. You cannot stunbreak while in Moa so any stuns after the transformation will lock you down
4. It disables you for 10 seconds, where you are useless to your team, this is crucial for sPvP, tPvP games, If you’re defending a point you have to run away or die as a bird, if you’re capturing a point, you have to try to run away and so you’ve wasted precious time
5. 2vs2 or 3vs3 fights can be decided on the factor that the moa bird will be stunlocked and beat to death, i’ve seen it happen a lot. once one player is down, good luck winning a 3vs2.

It’s sad really that people defend it still after all reasonable discussion has been brought, the enemy should be immune to damage as a Moa bird, the point is to disable not disable and kill, not a IWIN button which is what it is actually.

Oh and when people say that if you lose a 1vs1 when you’re moad you would’ve lost anyway without it is quite laughable.

5. 2vs2 or 3vs3 fights can be decided on the factor that the moa bird will be stunlocked and beat to death, i’ve seen it happen a lot. once one player is down, good luck winning a 3vs2.

Actually, 2v2 or 3v3 turns it into a 3v2 without killing the Moa. That’s where it’s strong. It removes the Moa from the fight while they focus someone else entirely. This is what makes the skill strong, not a 1v1 type of equal footing and “all of a sudden I died and not because I was outplayed”

What Moa does

You forgot this:
6. Is easily telegraphed and easily dodged, wasting the three minute cooldown entirely.

Oh and when people say that if you lose a 1vs1 when you’re moad you would’ve lost anyway without it is quite laughable.

^

The laughable part is that TW is better than Moa in 2v2 or more. TW gives the players roughly 2x the combat power. They go from 4502 power to over 9000. Moa subtracts 90% of a player’s combat power for 10 seconds, basically delaying the fight unless the Moa-ee isn’t ready for it and panics.

In a normal fight where you have two 2251 players versus two 2251 players, TW would make it 4502 versus 9004.

If a player Moa’d someone on the second team, it would be 4502 versus 4952.

As you can see, the team with TW still wins in a 2v2.

Kelesti.2458:

When people were getting shredded by Hundred Blades Warriors, they weren’t getting 10 seconds to live (because they played badly).

Hundred Blades CHARGE WAP WAP -> Shadowstep -> /dance
Moa -> ??? LOL! Y U SO BAD!

If you missed the tell on Hundred Blades, you didn’t have 10 seconds to live. You had no control over your character, and were dead almost instantly.

LOL no? See above.

The fact that people don’t know how to respond to it before (or stand there like a moron after) is what gets them killed.

This is an excellent point. I’ve been wanting to ask the Mesmer community, what does your ideal rotation of chomp, kick, peck, and screech look like? Also, for your “Moa Form” build, do you build for greater range on beak attacks, fluffier feathers, or sharper claws? What do you slot for your gap closer / escape? I’ve been meaning to do the theory crafting but just haven’t gotten around to it yet.

If you have a problem, skill up.

If your definition of ‘skill’ involves taking all of mine off my action bars for 10 seconds, I think I’ll pass, thanks!

You are not useless and sitting there waiting to die as a Pink Moa…

You have a heal and a daze and even in PvE when turning an NPC into one they still hurt…

How come the NPCs are smart enough to use the Daze and not many of the human players ?

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Juvenile_Pink_Moa

Lol Thief got rolled.

Have to admit that trolling Necros and disabling Thief ability-based escape mechanisms are the 2 reasons I ever used Moa. Negating Elementalist ability-based escapes was a bonus.

But really, I always saved it for Necros that Thieves.

Kintari.4172:

Kelesti.2458:

When people were getting shredded by Hundred Blades Warriors, they weren’t getting 10 seconds to live (because they played badly).

Hundred Blades CHARGE WAP WAP -> Shadowstep -> /dance
Moa -> ??? LOL! Y U SO BAD!

If you missed the tell on Hundred Blades, you didn’t have 10 seconds to live. You had no control over your character, and were dead almost instantly.

LOL no? See above.

The fact that people don’t know how to respond to it before (or stand there like a moron after) is what gets them killed.

This is an excellent point. I’ve been wanting to ask the Mesmer community, what does your ideal rotation of chomp, kick, peck, and screech look like? Also, for your “Moa Form” build, do you build for greater range on beak attacks, fluffier feathers, or sharper claws? What do you slot for your gap closer / escape? I’ve been meaning to do the theory crafting but just haven’t gotten around to it yet.

If you have a problem, skill up.

If your definition of ‘skill’ involves taking all of mine off my action bars for 10 seconds, I think I’ll pass, thanks!

Usually I just push all four and Ctlr+click for auto attack #1 (there is enough PvE hearts to teach you how to use transformations) if I have time… it’s only 10 seconds…

I believe someone said it earlier, people just having some bruised ego problems because the there’s that illusion you’re not in control. Though you can still move, dodge and attack. You even get a heal and a daze for 10 secs… far from being useless.

EasymodeX.4062:

Oh and when people say that if you lose a 1vs1 when you’re moad you would’ve lost anyway without it is quite laughable.

^

The laughable part is that TW is better than Moa in 2v2 or more. TW gives the players roughly 2x the combat power. They go from 4502 power to over 9000. Moa subtracts 90% of a player’s combat power for 10 seconds, basically delaying the fight unless the Moa-ee isn’t ready for it and panics.

In a normal fight where you have two 2251 players versus two 2251 players, TW would make it 4502 versus 9004.

If a player Moa’d someone on the second team, it would be 4502 versus 4952.

As you can see, the team with TW still wins in a 2v2.

Yep I run TW or my Sylvari elite 3 sec invul + seed bombs/extra fun for tab targeters.

Kintari.4172:

Hundred Blades CHARGE WAP WAP -> Shadowstep -> /dance
Moa -> ??? LOL! Y U SO BAD!

This is you finding a counter to Hundred Blades! Congratulations. This wasn’t happening in beta for most people, because they didn’t actually see a counter to it. Now, glad that we’ve discerned you are capable of cognitive thought, let’s see you apply that to Moa.

Should look something like this:

Moa – ??… DODGE .. /dance

You could even replace that with a thief centric stealth flavored move, if you so desire. Or a Guardian activating Aegis. A parry flavored Riposte style move?

If your definition of ‘skill’ involves taking all of mine off my action bars for 10 seconds, I think I’ll pass, thanks!

You are passing. That’s why you let the skill wreck you, when you’re just getting outplayed. It’s not even the good elite when it comes to team play.

So to boil down the essence of this post:

• Moa should get a nerf for sPvP/tPvP
• Moa should get a substantial buff in WvW
• Moa should get a substantial buff for dungeons.
• Moa is ok-ish in solo PvE.

My take?
5s duration, medium~large AE radius.

Moa is fine in sPvP because in that you’re expected to actually be watching your opponents, and counter their moves. If they’re running Moa they aren’t running another elite, and it’s easy to counter so there’s nothing to worry about.

Moa in dungeons is weak because dungeons de-emphasize effects like this for a reason. Moa in WvW is probably where it shines the best when being a scout/harassment solo striker, it lets you hold off one attacker while you work on another. Of course, does nothing to the zerg, but most things don’t. Open field removes Line of Sight, but people there don’t seem to have an issue dodging it either.

It shines in different areas of the game (as do most elites, most utilities, etc), but generally speaking it’s fine where it is. I wouldn’t want to see it buffed anymore than I would want to see it nerfed.

Kelesti.2458:

Found your problems. Two of them. You left the Duelist up while the Mesmer was stealthed. Even without the rest of this situation, if you’d have got the Mesmer down, the Duelist would have taken you with it. Second is the wasted dodges. Primary escape mechanic is running, run away. Run run run. If you’re running, you’re outranging the Unload. Only time this isn’t true is if they spent 2 seconds of your 10 second daze casting it. In which case you dodge. In fact, if they’re pistol, the two pistol skills are pretty much the only thing you need to dodge (Magic Bullet and the Unload from the Duelist). Or you’re Line of Sighting it, drop down the hill and gtfo.

But they won’t catch up to you. Mesmers have no passive speed increase, they’d have to weapon swap to a Focus for reliable swiftness. Which means that they won’t have their pistol anymore for a stun.

And while they’re chasing you off into the middle of nowhere where you’re taking no damage, no one is firing the Trebuchet, no one is defending it.

Edit: Or what EasymodeX said.

What are you talking about?
1. The mesmer can cast the duelist every 15 kittening seconds. Also if you focus on the duelist leaving the mesmer alone, you’ll probably see it again when you are a Moa. Seriously, how am I supposed to kill a Duelist in 2 seconds, which is the time the Mesmer needs to cast Moa when stealthed?
2. Sooo. You are saying to run to outrange the Unload… Do you realize how stupid is that thing? First, you are assuming that the Mesmer won’t follow you, second you are leaving the objective (trebuchet, node) which is your main target, third you can’t deal damage if you outrange the unload, you know? Also we are considering only the Illusionary Unload, did you know that Mesmers have other 7 skills excluding Moa, Heal and Duelist? We are making theories on the hypothetic case that the mesmer is doing nothing except casting Illusionary Duelist, which I think it won’t happen in any fight.
3. So, the best counter to Moa is to run? Wow, that’s what the mesmer wants! Is he defending a point? No problem, Moa and you are forced to run away to counter it. Are you capping a point? Moa! Are you trying to destroy a trebuchet? Moa! Are you using the trebuchet and a Mesmer came to destroy it? Moa! Did you know that the goal of sPvP isn’t killing people?
Really, either your point of view is extremely biased or you don’t know what sPvP is.

Not to say that Moa is an easy counter of every kittening Necro Elite skill plus 1/4 of their utilities and the whole profession specific mechanic which is Death Shroud (when you are Moaed when you are in DS you are stuck in DS wasting all your Life Force).
Also you get the bonus to have your target totally useless for 10 seconds, without heals, skills, stunbreakers and protections. This is the skill everyone wants to freewin.

sorrow.2364:

[…]
2. Sooo. You are saying to run to outrange the Unload… Do you realize how stupid is that thing? First, you are assuming that the Mesmer won’t follow you, second you are leaving the objective (trebuchet, node) which is your main target, third you can’t deal damage if you outrange the unload, you know? Also we are considering only the Illusionary Unload, did you know that Mesmers have other 7 skills excluding Moa, Heal and Duelist? We are making theories on the hypothetic case that the mesmer is doing nothing except casting Illusionary Duelist, which I think it won’t happen in any fight.
[…]

Just a thought…how can you play a Mesmer and not know that the unload is coming from the Illusionary Duelist, which always stands still when doing it, and not the Mesmer?

Seriously, how am I supposed to kill a Duelist in 2 seconds, which is the time the Mesmer needs to cast Moa when stealthed?

I recommend starting with the button on your keyboard labelled “1”. There are other options as well, by default associated with the buttons “2” through “5”. Generally speaking, a casual roll-face of these buttons will usually have the desired effect on the dreaded Duelist.

3. So, the best counter to Moa is to run? Wow, that’s what the mesmer wants! Is he defending a point?

Hmmm. Well, let’s see … if the Mesmer is not on the Treb because he is fighting you … you are succeeding.

If you run away successfully and return 15 seconds later … hmm, now you get to fight again and the Mesmer has no dreaded Moa.

Good show!

Somna.5168:

Just a thought…how can you play a Mesmer and not know that the unload is coming from the Illusionary Duelist, which always stands still when doing it, and not the Mesmer?

Did I mentioned Illusionary Duelist? Was the subject of that sentence the Illusionary Duelist? You know, the Mesmer can deal damage from himself damage.
I think there are serious understanding problems here.

EasymodeX.4062:

Seriously, how am I supposed to kill a Duelist in 2 seconds, which is the time the Mesmer needs to cast Moa when stealthed?

I recommend starting with the button on your keyboard labelled “1”. There are other options as well, by default associated with the buttons “2” through “5”. Generally speaking, a casual roll-face of these buttons will usually have the desired effect on the dreaded Duelist.

Looks like you jumped a fondamental part of my sentence, which is “in 2 seconds”. You know, if you aren’t specced in glass cannon builds, it isn’t too easy to kill that illusion in 2 seconds, assuming that you have lightning reflexes to react the stealth in a fraction of a second.

3. So, the best counter to Moa is to run? Wow, that’s what the mesmer wants! Is he defending a point?

Hmmm. Well, let’s see … if the Mesmer is not on the Treb because he is fighting you … you are succeeding.

If you run away successfully and return 15 seconds later … hmm, now you get to fight again and the Mesmer has no dreaded Moa.

Good show!

Let’s get straight.
If the Mesmer decides to fight me, I’m dead. One snare is more enough to prevent me escaping.

If the Mesmer let me run away, I’ve lost a precious occasion to kill the Mesmer, I’ve probably wasted my Elite which is on cooldown also and the Mesmer saved his kitten with just one skill. Well, tell me which skill has the power to save your kitten in one cast not considering Moa, please.

And these are the cases regarding a trebuchet run. What if the Mesmer is defending a point? He disables you for 10 seconds with one skill, more then enough time for the friendlies to come to help, without considering that it isn’t even needed in a 1vs1 situation, because the Mesmer can leave the node unprotected to kill you, if he wants. What if the Mesmer is attacking a point protected by a single player? Moa will force them to run or die, so that skill means a sure cap.
What if the Mesmer is defending the trebuchet? Moa is enough to solve the situation.

Don’t answer to just one case I proposed, answer them all.

I love this thread because again and again I keep reading “I can’t do anything for 10s”… “it’s a 10s daze!”… blah blah blah.

Again and again the reply has been:

1. You can run
2. You can dodge
3. You can use the moa skills

Item 3 above is what’s mostly ignored by the “nerf” faction. One Moa skill is a stun. Another Moa skill is a heal.

Is a Moa as powerful as a player?
Nope, you are as powerful as a lvl 80 Moa you run into in PvE.

Are you completely helpless as if you were dazed for 10s?
Nope, you are as helpless as a lvl 80 Moa in PvE.

Lastly I’m not defending what I consider “bugs”. Into this category I throw the necro’s loss of pets. That is a bug that should be fixed. I also put the cancellation of elite “form” skills into this “bug” list. I think that should be fixed so that it doesn’t occur and the Moa skill goes on a five second c/d (just like an interrupted or failed skill does).

juno.1840:

I love this thread because again and again I keep reading “I can’t do anything for 10s”… “it’s a 10s daze!”… blah blah blah.

Again and again the reply has been:

1. You can run
2. You can dodge
3. You can use the moa skills

Item 3 above is what’s mostly ignored by the “nerf” faction. One Moa skill is a stun. Another Moa skill is a heal.

Is a Moa as powerful as a player?
Nope, you are as powerful as a lvl 80 Moa you run into in PvE.

Are you completely helpless as if you were dazed for 10s?
Nope, you are as helpless as a lvl 80 Moa in PvE.

Lastly I’m not defending what I consider “bugs”. Into this category I throw the necro’s loss of pets. That is a bug that should be fixed. I also put the cancellation of elite “form” skills into this “bug” list. I think that should be fixed so that it doesn’t occur and the Moa skill goes on a five second c/d (just like an interrupted or failed skill does).

Oh wait, so you are suggesting to fight as a Moa? Have you actually tried it?
I did, 3-4 seconds after I was dead.
Please, try it out before suggesting people to do things everyone know don’t work.

sorrow.2364

I did, 3-4 seconds after I was dead.
Please, try it out before suggesting people to do things everyone know don’t work.

So you went from 100% health to dead in 4 seconds because of Moa in a 1v1 with a mesmer? That’s what you are implying with your response.

If the situation was different (i.e. you were at low health before moa, it wasn’t a 1v1, you didn’t use your moa skills, you didn’t run, you didn’t dodge, etc) then your response is counter-productive. Why? Because you would have died with any other elite as well… not just moa.

People are skewing the argument and blaming a loss completely on Moa — that’s the premise of this entire post: “I was moa’d and therefore I died…”

It’s not accurate, and not true.

juno.1840:

sorrow.2364

I did, 3-4 seconds after I was dead.
Please, try it out before suggesting people to do things everyone know don’t work.

So you went from 100% health to dead in 4 seconds because of Moa in a 1v1 with a mesmer? That’s what you are implying with your response.

If the situation was different (i.e. you were at low health before moa, it wasn’t a 1v1, you didn’t use your moa skills, you didn’t run, you didn’t dodge, etc) then your response is counter-productive. Why? Because you would have died with any other elite as well… not just moa.

People are skewing the argument and blaming a loss completely on Moa — that’s the premise of this entire post: “I was moa’d and therefore I died…”

It’s not accurate, and not true.

Ok, let’s suppose I wasn’t at full health, but at something more than an half, not enough to be worth using your healing skill though, just the situation I’ve described before.
Now which skill wipes out more than an half of your life bar without giving you the chance to heal or to stunbreak and makes your enemy totally harmless? I think none.
When you are Moaed at about 3/4-1/2 of your life bar, I think that 10 seconds without healing are enough to getting killed, isn’t it?

sorrow.2364:

When you are Moaed at about 3/4-1/2 of your life bar, I think that 10 seconds without healing are enough to getting killed, isn’t it?

If you stand and do nothing you will die in 10s regardless of Moa. That’s my whole point — in that case you died because you suck, not because you’re a moa.

You have a heal as a moa — did you use it?
You have a stun as a moa — did you use it?
You can run — did you try that?
You can dodge — did you have any vigor left and try that?

Refer to my post above — you’re not helpless as a Moa but everyone who’s been owned acted like they were…

Now which skill wipes out more than an half of your life bar without giving you the chance to heal or to stunbreak? I think none.

You can heal in Moa form. Lols.

When you are Moaed at about 3/4-1/2 of your life bar, I think that 10 seconds without healing are enough to getting killed, isn’t it?

Last time I was Moa’d, I lost 6.7% of my life bar.

Try harder.

Edit:

OHkitten MOA. WAT DO WAT DO??

juno.1840:

sorrow.2364:

When you are Moaed at about 3/4-1/2 of your life bar, I think that 10 seconds without healing are enough to getting killed, isn’t it?

If you stand and do nothing you will die in 10s regardless of Moa. That’s my whole point — in that case you died because you suck, not because you’re a moa.

You have a heal as a moa — did you use it?
You have a stun as a moa — did you use it?
You can run — did you try that?
You can dodge — did you have any vigor left and try that?

Refer to my post above — you’re not helpless as a Moa but everyone who’s been owned acted like they were…

Don’t take just a sentence of my post and answer only to that sentence, please.
I’ve made a whole post, it is worth reading, don’t you think?

Do you really think that the 5 skill is an heal? It is a 3 seconds casting time heals which heals only for 2k, not worth using. Also that was said before that it is not worth fighting as a Moa, now you are saying it is worth? Have you tried to fight as a Moa? Seriously.

Guys, I’m wasting my time here. Your point of view is extremely spoilt and you have no idea of what overpowered means, you are keep saying the same things over and over, hoping that they makes sense if you keep repeating them.
You will realize that Moa was op when ANet nerfs it in the next balancing patch. Have fun with your fair and well balanced Moa Morph.

I’ve made a whole post, it is worth reading, don’t you think?

Not really.

Have fun with your fair and well balanced Moa Morph.

… oooook. Considering most don’t use Moa, I have a feeling it won’t be a huge change in Mesmer lifestyle.

I did read your whole post — there’s too much noise in this thread to address the irrelevant points.

If you didn’t use your moa heal because 2k health is not worth it, then you deserved to die as a moa. You fall into the “I did nothing as a moa” player group who are the same folks screaming for a nerf.

I understand that the skill floor in GW2 is higher than other MMOs, and learning to play takes time. I’m not the best player in the world, nor will I ever be. But refusing to try is not an excuse to nerf the skill and make the whole game “easymode”.

sorrow.2364:

Don’t take just a sentence of my post and answer only to that sentence, please.
I’ve made a whole post, it is worth reading, don’t you think?

Do you really think that the 5 skill is an heal? It is a 3 seconds casting time heals which heals only for 2k, not worth using. Also that was said before that it is not worth fighting as a Moa, now you are saying it is worth? Have you tried to fight as a Moa? Seriously.

Guys, I’m wasting my time here. Your point of view is extremely spoilt and you have no idea of what overpowered means, you are keep saying the same things over and over, hoping that they makes sense if you keep repeating them.
You will realize that Moa was op when ANet nerfs it in the next balancing patch. Have fun with your fair and well balanced Moa Morph.

You are the only person here with absolutely no logical basis to his argument. In fact, whenever a logical counter argument is presented, you immediately dismiss it as Bull kitten.

Plenty of good players on this forum have given you tons of ways to deal with/avoid Moa Morph. Even by reading your posts, it is apparent that you don’t engage a mesmer with any kind of forethought or strategy. The reason why you lose so bad is because playing a mesmer is all about forethought and strategy.

Your ego is so big that being the best player, anything that kills you must be OP. Face the facts, Moa only works on scrubs like you. Most good players don’t even give it a second thought. Not to mention most Mesmers don’t even run Moa because it isn’t as strong as TW.

Mesmers are the single hardest professions to play. The AI of PvE is quite challenging, but that’s nothing compared to a human player capable of strategic thought backed by at least 16 skills at his/her disposal.

Kelesti.2458:

Kintari.4172:

Hundred Blades CHARGE WAP WAP -> Shadowstep -> /dance
Moa -> ??? LOL! Y U SO BAD!

This is you finding a counter to Hundred Blades! Congratulations. This wasn’t happening in beta for most people, because they didn’t actually see a counter to it. Now, glad that we’ve discerned you are capable of cognitive thought, let’s see you apply that to Moa.

Should look something like this:

Moa – ??… DODGE .. /dance

You could even replace that with a thief centric stealth flavored move, if you so desire. Or a Guardian activating Aegis. A parry flavored Riposte style move?

If your definition of ‘skill’ involves taking all of mine off my action bars for 10 seconds, I think I’ll pass, thanks!

You are passing. That’s why you let the skill wreck you, when you’re just getting outplayed. It’s not even the good elite when it comes to team play.

Of course it can be dodged. No need to restate the obvious. The point I was making is what happens when it isn’t dodged (or block/invul/etc), compared to what happens when other stuff isn’t dodged. Or did you think that maybe I just prefer to let warriors charge and immobilize/KD me first so I can needlessly burn my 60 sec stun breaker when a simple dodge would have done instead?

And yes, you all like Time Warp, we get it, that’s great, but entirely irrelevant.

Jungle Quack.1368:

sorrow.2364:

Don’t take just a sentence of my post and answer only to that sentence, please.
I’ve made a whole post, it is worth reading, don’t you think?

Do you really think that the 5 skill is an heal? It is a 3 seconds casting time heals which heals only for 2k, not worth using. Also that was said before that it is not worth fighting as a Moa, now you are saying it is worth? Have you tried to fight as a Moa? Seriously.

Guys, I’m wasting my time here. Your point of view is extremely spoilt and you have no idea of what overpowered means, you are keep saying the same things over and over, hoping that they makes sense if you keep repeating them.
You will realize that Moa was op when ANet nerfs it in the next balancing patch. Have fun with your fair and well balanced Moa Morph.

You are the only person here with absolutely no logical basis to his argument. In fact, whenever a logical counter argument is presented, you immediately dismiss it as Bull kitten.

Plenty of good player on this forum have given you tons of ways to deal with/avoid Moa Morph. Even by reading your posts, it is apparent that you don’t engage a mesmer with any kind of forethought or strategy.

Your ego is so big that being the best player, anything that kills you must be OP. Face the facts, Moa only works on scrubs like you. Most good players don’t even give it a second thought.

Mesmers are the single hardest professions to play. The AI of PvE is quite challenging, but that’s nothing compared to a human player capable of strategic thought backed by at least 16 skills at his/her disposal.

I’d hate to see what happens if he tried the Fort Trinity skill point challenge solo and got Moa’d.

So what I get from this thread is…

1. Moa should be fixed so it doesn’t cancel out elite skills.
2. Moa should not cancel out any pets.
3. Sorrow is bad.

Moa is overpowered. Time Warp is overpowered. Portal is overpowered. Phantasms are overpowered. What next?