Guild Wars 2

Clone Death traits – axed.
Duelists Discipline – Nerfed on arrival by 50%
Maim the Disillusioned – Nerfed same day by 50%
Mistrust – Nerfed on arrival by 33%
Confusion – Nerfed in pvp, primarily a Mesmer condition. (at least it was)

As it stands, Condi Mesmer seem to get brutalized with each balance pass. This is especially odd since Condi is not even meta or viable in high end play, useless in large scale WvW (glamour bombs nerfed) and only good for soloing dungeons in PvE (less efficiently than other classes at that)

So what gives? Is Condi not supposed to be as prevalent as power? With the arrival of Herald and Druid should we not expect classes to bring condition removal? On their own, none of these traits are very worthwhile for a build versus their power damage counterpart, and even together their effectiveness is questionable.

Mistrust – Competing with DE is bad enough, but to only grant 2 stacks per interrupt isn’t worth a GM, especially not with such a pitifully small AoE. Increase by 1 stack

Maimed – You may as well move Maimed into chronomancy, because core Mesmer cannot get much value from such a low amount of torment. Increase duration at least

• - And can we get our Glamour bombs back please!? -

I don’t even play condition, and this is ridiculous. I could never recommend a trait like Mistrust to anyone, and yet condi-lock is sooo close to being a thing.

I was going to make a really sarcastic post about Condi Mesmers being super powerful, because reasons, or something. But honestly, I just can’t.

I think you get to the heart of the problem here, though, at least in part. A lot of people don’t bring (enough) cleanses, they see themselves dying “without the Condi Mes/character doing anything,” and then they go and spew rage all over the forums.

In a larger sense, I guess it’s just the wages of playing a class that’s inherently good at dueling. People die in a 1v1, and then assume what they were playing against needs nerfing.

It seems that the devs are unbelievably skittish about condie Mesmer strength in 1v1, while simultaneously neglecting the effectiveness of these builds in actual fights. This has been consistent throughout the entire game. Mesmer condie builds are usually great duelists, but patently awful in a real fight.

This results in really wonky balancing, because it simultaneously ensures that there will be a nonstop stream of complaints about these builds because people hate losing duels, but also makes them useless in PvP or WvW outside of roaming.

It’s a really awkward situation, and needs better resolution.

When druids with their healing wall comes out, all you scepter/staff condie mesmers will be healing bots for them.

The really baffling part of this is that Mesmers have almost no access to cover conditions, so condi Mesmers are super easy to handle with even a single source of cleanse.

Condi may be more of a thing with chrono. Mistrust starts to look a bit better with that. With the current specializations though I absolutely agree, couldn’t recommend it at all. With Chrono, we’ll see.

As for the DD nerf, Robert you built in the proper safe guard with a 33% chance to proc the bleeds. Please allow us to play with it first or at the very least if it’s too much concern, make it a 25% chance.

It will be more of a thing with chrono, but not because you’re a better condie player exactly. Your condie pressure will increase somewhat with the higher rate of shatters due to alacrity, but that’s not the important thing.

The difference is that chrono allows you to bring massive utility in multiple forms along with decent condie pressure. You’ll have great access to stuns, interrupts in general, better defensive mechanics, the incredible mechanic of slow, aoe quickness, and your pick of utility from wells. You’re still just sorta okish at condies, but the build as a whole becomes far more capable and useful because of everything else you bring.

Fay.2357:

It seems that the devs are unbelievably skittish about condie Mesmer strength in 1v1, while simultaneously neglecting the effectiveness of these builds in actual fights. This has been consistent throughout the entire game. Mesmer condie builds are usually great duelists, but patently awful in a real fight.

This results in really wonky balancing, because it simultaneously ensures that there will be a nonstop stream of complaints about these builds because people hate losing duels, but also makes them useless in PvP or WvW outside of roaming.

It’s a really awkward situation, and needs better resolution.

This really sums it up. Condi PU isn’t OP but it causes so much QQ from 1v1. I can even understand the QQ since the stealth (and it’s mostly the stealth not condi) combo’d with “passive” illusions condi dmg is very hard for noobs to counter. While reveal skills are being added, the chance of a noob using those skills well is low and the people that might use those reveal skills probably don’t need them to survive or predict where the mesmer is.

So what then… gut stealth? It’s not OP in conquest. PU has been somewhat nerfed. Gut the ability of mesmers to do condi damage while in stealth? That requires removing condi damage from illusions and putting it back on the mesmer. OR maybe making stealth/conditions a bit more mutually exclusive. Maybe swap mistrust and PU locations in the trait lines then buff mistrust? Would force a choice of PU or DE. If that’s the case then buff PU back to 100% and make the boons it gives more offensive since it’s in dueling. I’m sure most mesmers would hate that change but I could care less since I don’t use PU but also I think it would be a much healthier change for the class/whine.

I still like my idea to bring back “clone death.”
Mistrust: Illusions gain distortion when you dodge. 1-3 stacks of aoe confusion when illusions (or just clones, maybe include the mesmer) evade. Stacks would depend on ICD existence or lack thereof. Competes with DE so clones can’t be kitten out but scales a lot better for big fights if there is no ICD while letting illusions live for a bit longer. If PU gets swapped with mistrust then it would be possible to bring this and DE. Clone spawned on dodge could still have distortion as you dodge. Overall it wouldn’t inherently make a mesmer tanky but it would add a catch 22/danger factor to trying to cleave a mesmer.

People don’t like conditions. If they take a 10k backstab from stealth it’s fine, but confusion ticking during 6s for 1.5k damage is OP.

Yes, condi mesmer suffers from a lot of QQing in other parts of the forum (mostly from WvW roamers). You could expect that with the stealth nerf, this will change, but when people start to hate a build, it takes long to undo it (people still complain about mesmer power bursts even after the mirror blade nerf, while it is infinitely more counterable than a backstab)

Also, DD would not have been OP in any real situation. In theory, against a dummy, 3 iDuelist + mesmer sword AA was a higher DPS in sinister/rampager than 3 swordsman+mesmer AA on a berserker build (not by much). When is the last time you managed to keep 3 duelists alive in PvP???

I think some of the problem is that it’s actually a little difficult to tell when you’re taking condition damage just due to the UI presentation of condi ticks. Or maybe that’s just me?

Still, that’s a UI problem and not a class balance problem.

I think for most people fighting a condi PU mesmer it’s the confusion that really gets them. They feel they can’t cleanse or else they get hit with even more damage and so it feels very oppressive. Condi builds also really really hurt zerkers because of the low health pool on some and the way it keeps ticking. Fortunately I’m running inspiration which makes conditions a breeze.

I really do hope the WvW forum doesn’t see this thread -.-

This was (and continues to be) my biggest disappointment after the specialization update. I loved running Condi/hybrid builds on my mesmer prepatch. The removal of the condition cap was going to free me from having to change to berzerker gear every time I joined in group activities.

Instead… we’ve received nothing but nerfs and inferior substitutions to our ability to apply conditions. Compound that with the global nerf to bleed scaling and how ineffectual confusion and torment are in PvE, it makes condi mesmer feel like a complete waste of time. In PvP we gained enough additional utility from our traits that our condi shatter builds dont feel completely neutered, but it does shock me so many people complain about condi shatter post specialization patch… I was capable of MUCH bigger condi shatter bursts pre patch and condi shatter was still not thing.

You forgot to mention-
-Phantasmal mage’s change to 1 stack of burning
-The ninja removal of the updated Confusing Combatants
-Our complete lack of ANY condition applying utilities

If i move my ascended rampager/sinister set over to my elementalist, fire signet’s tooltip says it deals 12k damage (16-20 sec recast)… thats no stacks/food/might.

When i run my lazy-mode D/F signet build on my ele I can easily maintain 5-7k burning with spikes up to 14k (PvE obviously, still no stacks/food).

In IDEAL situations (single target with a large HP pool that doesnt blow up all my illusions every 5 seconds) WITH stacks/food/might I havent been able to break 6k bleeds on Mesmer…

Where is the ‘balance’?

P.S. I’m very bitter about this.

apharma.3741:

I think for most people fighting a condi PU mesmer it’s the confusion that really gets them. They feel they can’t cleanse or else they get hit with even more damage and so it feels very oppressive.

What? A Mesmer is confusing to play against, sometime? O.O

Stop the presses, someone get the president on the phone, because this will not stand.

In all seriousness, though, I think you’re right. I just… I don’t really accept it as a valid reason for the repeated gutting that condi Mes seems to get as a matter of course.

I also want to point out that its disenheartening that burn guardian remains completely untouched, while every other condi spec, mesmers in particular are handled with extreme caution.

Also necromancers had to beg to get our scepter to be more useful than a toilet plunger, and it took so much lobbying to get it there, and condi necro still has some trait issues that make it hard to play compared to bruiser builds.

Clone death, interrupt, confusion and torment all punish opponent bad play, we can’t have that in GW2.

As for bleed…
…
…sorry to fail you guys but I just can’t find a simple reason for it.

Silverkey.2078:

People don’t like conditions. If they take a 10k backstab from stealth it’s fine, but confusion ticking during 6s for 1.5k damage is OP.

This.

That’s all I have to say.

I was roaming with a friend who mains thief today, and he said something very poignant. He said “the order is restored”. That is very telling of what is going on at the moment.

The summer:

There were a number of issues discovered going into the summer, such as how condi-mesmers (while still probably the strongest overall archetype of mesmer builds, looking at builds and stats alone) were out-conditioned by other classes even on the class’ main condition type (at least as far as condi burst go) and where power-mesmers generally had stealth-competition issues in detail-demanding gameplay, where any composition it would presumtively carry would be outstealthed in a waiting game giving momentum over to opponents and both limiting tactical play and ideal compositions. Pant.

That last bit was tangled up, but essentially, what I’m saying is that in a competetive scenario where eg., thieves and mesmers competed we ended up with situations where stacking thieves became better than rotating in mesmers with a thief.

None of that is particularily eye-catching. Those issues were probably identified and that’s why we had the summer’s changes to mesmer stealth-time and an active more bursty onset of condition application, with more torment and higher stacks applied directly.

The outcries:

Now, there’s no denying that it synergized a bit too well and that these things went over the top with the stat-changes (everyone does more damage) and trait-tree changes (many classes were given the opportunity to combine more powerful traits).

Not that the “pre-stealth burst mesmer” is such a problem that the more cringeworthy parts of the community makes them out to be (they’re relatively easy to avoid for an experienced player – and most mesmers gained alot of experience of just that by anticipating thieves for two years), but there was nonetheless an issue. There was an issue with how PU combined with pledge, torch and an allround good defensive playstyle leaving condi mesmers with damage, tank, stealth and evasions. The only thing they weren’t very good at was catching players – so anyone could just disengage against such a mesmer and leave things at a draw – but there was an issue nonetheless when trying to fight such a powerful combination, so a change was undoubtedly necessary.

The reaction:

That’s where the problem errupts, because many of these changes are not very creative, they are just roll-backs that recreate the same problems the mesmers went into the summer with: being out-initiated and out-applied.

So, while I welcome changes and don’t necessarily see these particular changes as very disruptive, this thread was certainly to the point as well – because balance is about pairing the classes up and in longer term this sets us back to a point when something else (hopefully something that isn’t too strong) needs to be given anew to deal with the issues that were first identified.

Personally, I would have preferred something along the lines of splitting up the traits to force some choices instead.

Also, something should probably be done about the manipulation trait reflection breaking stealths, especially now that there is less go-to stealth to cover mishaps. Pulling oneself out of MI because it was traited is a rather amusing quirk. That would be a first step and then back to the drawing table to consider the issue of being out-applied and out-stealthed by classes less dependent upon it. I hope we don’t come back to the days when the perplexity runes were best used on engineers. That would be a sorry sight, hehe.

Its worth nothing that when several condi skills, mostly ones that applied burning, were changed due to the new condi stacking/damage forumlas that Staff auto stayed the same basically nerfing the auto.

Levetty.1279:

Its worth nothing that when several condi skills, mostly ones that applied burning, were changed due to the new condi stacking/damage forumlas that Staff auto stayed the same basically nerfing the auto.

Also the prestige and the mage fall into this category.

AtomsOrSystems.9420:

In all seriousness, though, I think you’re right. I just… I don’t really accept it as a valid reason for the repeated gutting that condi Mes seems to get as a matter of course.

Oh, it’s obviously not a valid reason. But that’s how kitten rolls around here. Balance by QQ.

You know, I actually crafted a sinister set with for my mesmer before June 23rd. I think I put it on maybe 3 times after the update. All the traits and skills I was looking forward to were changed, nerfed, or bugged. I think “maybe its not so bad”, but then I put on the sinister gear again only to be disappointed.

I loved what they did with mantras for awhile, but now I’m just waiting for the chrono.

apharma.3741:

I think for most people fighting a condi PU mesmer it’s the confusion that really gets them. They feel they can’t cleanse or else they get hit with even more damage and so it feels very oppressive. Condi builds also really really hurt zerkers because of the low health pool on some and the way it keeps ticking. Fortunately I’m running inspiration which makes conditions a breeze.

I really do hope the WvW forum doesn’t see this thread -.-

As a WvW player, I’m fully aware that condi mesmers are not god mode or even good outside of WvW. However, they are really, really annoying within it.

I’m fine with them being strong if they can do so in a way that doesn’t make them so insanely powerful in WvW environments, but that seems hard to pull off given the nature of conditions (and condi gear) and the very quick reapplication rate. It’s truly unfortunate that they’re based around stealth and conditions…two things that are far, far more powerful in WvW than PvE or PvP.*

*Stealth is stronger in open spaces and without pressure to cap. Conditions are stronger as there is less time pressure.

I think that a dev or devs do poorly against Mesmers. So, they believe that Mesmer must be OP. Not unlike many players on the forums.

There is an alternative explanation.

Sviel.7493:

apharma.3741:

I think for most people fighting a condi PU mesmer it’s the confusion that really gets them. They feel they can’t cleanse or else they get hit with even more damage and so it feels very oppressive. Condi builds also really really hurt zerkers because of the low health pool on some and the way it keeps ticking. Fortunately I’m running inspiration which makes conditions a breeze.

I really do hope the WvW forum doesn’t see this thread -.-

As a WvW player, I’m fully aware that condi mesmers are not god mode or even good outside of WvW. However, they are really, really annoying within it.

WvW has many scenarios.

PU Condi mesmer was (is?) very good in a very specific part of WvW is, but saying that condi mesmers are very good in WvW is just flat out ridicolous. Any organized group has enough condi removal to counter even the most extreme condi pressure – and mesmer condi application against groups is just abysmal.

No matter what happens, people will ALWAYS complain about mesmer. It’s class philosophy is literally to be deceptive and frustrating to play against, so naturally you get a lot of qq no matter how balanced the class is.

Condi mesmer’s main source of damage is confusion stacks, so it only really wrecks new players who spam their skills. Any experienced player will just laugh while kiting you and your slow-motion pink orbs until they cleanse it or it wears off. The passive ticks from confusion help a little, but hardly enough. And to get those stacks in the first place you must set-up and hit the burst, which is painfully obvious and basically impossible in team fights due to excessive amounts of cleave and aoe.

It doesn’t help that everyone packs tons of cleanses atm due to the burning meta.

Add to that the general class squishiness and the fact that any cc will wreck your face in like a baseball bat to a marshmallow aaaaand voilà: the bad to mediocre condi mesmer build.

But people will still complain about it, because they used a skill on a target and it wasn’t the real one.

Silverkey.2078:

People don’t like conditions. If they take a 10k backstab from stealth it’s fine, but confusion ticking during 6s for 1.5k damage is OP.

Yes, condi mesmer suffers from a lot of QQing in other parts of the forum (mostly from WvW roamers). You could expect that with the stealth nerf, this will change, but when people start to hate a build, it takes long to undo it (people still complain about mesmer power bursts even after the mirror blade nerf, while it is infinitely more counterable than a backstab)

Also, DD would not have been OP in any real situation. In theory, against a dummy, 3 iDuelist + mesmer sword AA was a higher DPS in sinister/rampager than 3 swordsman+mesmer AA on a berserker build (not by much). When is the last time you managed to keep 3 duelists alive in PvP???

Yeah this.

It’s weird – people qq about mesmer condi damage/application when it is pretty much worse than every other class’ condi builds and weaker than power.

It’s an irrational hatred of DoT (of which the big damage attacks have to still be actively applied/cast) and mesmer illusion mechanics.

Mikkel.8427:

it does shock me so many people complain about condi shatter post specialization patch… I was capable of MUCH bigger condi shatter bursts pre patch and condi shatter was still not thing.

Absolutely.

The only benefit now with IP is chain shatters which were previously not an option. However now Chronomancer will be mandatory in order to have condi shatter burst/application be better than it was pre patch.

Even then I’d rather have higher torment/other condition stacks on burst and less frequent application instead of spamming shatters at low cooldown to keep the condi pressure up…

Silverkey.2078:

People don’t like conditions. If they take a 10k backstab from stealth it’s fine, but confusion ticking during 6s for 1.5k damage is OP.
…

I think it is because the conditions that condi mesmers put out actively punish people for doing things normal to playing. Normally they can move and cast skills. Now not only do they have to worry about cleanse they also have to worry about modifying their own behaviour.

But the QQ has existed since the creation of the franchise. When confusion was separated into backfire and empathy. In fact it way worse back then. Right now we can sustain a moa for 10/20 seconds and a 144/180 cooldown and people get annoyed. But none of them seem to remember that back then we could disable all their skills for at least 26 seconds and they would only have a 3 second window before we do it again.

Menaka.5092:

WvW has many scenarios.

PU Condi mesmer was (is?) very good in a very specific part of WvW is, but saying that condi mesmers are very good in WvW is just flat out ridicolous. Any organized group has enough condi removal to counter even the most extreme condi pressure – and mesmer condi application against groups is just abysmal.

I said they were very, very annoying, not very good in WvW everywhere.

In a group, they were a non-issue, but alone they were a no-win situation. Essentially, either life sucked for them or for me. I consider that to be a bad place to inhabit in terms of design.

Curunen.8729:

Mikkel.8427:

it does shock me so many people complain about condi shatter post specialization patch… I was capable of MUCH bigger condi shatter bursts pre patch and condi shatter was still not thing.

Absolutely.

The only benefit now with IP is chain shatters which were previously not an option. However now Chronomancer will be mandatory in order to have condi shatter burst/application be better than it was pre patch.

Even then I’d rather have higher torment/other condition stacks on burst and less frequent application instead of spamming shatters at low cooldown to keep the condi pressure up…

I used to run that trait that reset shatter recasts @50% health (was removed, cant remember its name…). That trait made it pretty easy to roll through your shatters for max confusion and torment, then repeat if your target managed to survive… I miss seeing 4k torment roll on my screen. That could be done at range, also. Kite people into your clones, then burst them. IP being baseline doesn’t make up the dmg from MtD nerf, or the loss of shatter frequency.

While IP being baseline massively improved power shatter builds, it didnt impact condi shatter in the same way. Like i said, we used to be able to condi burst from range… now you have to be in melee range to get its full effect, and that effect is less than what it used to be… So, between ‘blind on shatter’ and IP distortions I feel like I broke even in the survive-ability department.

@op maining a condi Mesmer in wvw , I can tell you that all of them nerfs are probably deserved. It’s not the skills themselves that were opd. It was the combinations that you can create with them.

Just an example , the MTD nerf after 1 day. The nerf by it self looks like “wtfanet” but if you ran it with scepter. You can get 13 stacks of torment on someone in under 2 seconds.

That first day I was melting groups of people. I knew it wouldn’t last. I was running around with 2800 condi dmg to test it.

Anyways as it stands now. Condi Mesmer can still 1v2 -1v4 in wvw depending on player skill levels. I do it on a daily basis. The problem really comes down to spec, player skill and knowing what classes you are fighting. Most condi Mesmers I come across run sub optimal gear/spec. Or have no idea what the survival/DPS rotation is.

There is also to many on paper know it all’s here on this forum or I would post a recent video or go into further detail.

Also I remember you from a long time ago , we deuled at nn. Remember ?

As long as we are the 2nd best stealth class condi dmg cant get a boost, because u can hide urself in it and still do dmg that way.
50% nerf on PU is a start. imo going into a pvp 1v1 and relying upon being in stealth for at leat 40% of the fight is just something that should not be rewarded.

and in addition there are just some classes that cant cleanse all the possible condis a mesmer can provide. just by traiting it u get confu, torm, cripp, blind, vuln on 1 shatter. combined with chaos- storm/aura and weapon swap bleed/poison we have one of the biggest condi line-ups in game.
how to fix it? get other classes more cleans like 3 stacks on cleans instead of 2.
everything but necro mesmer ele and guard most likely wont be able to cleans it as long as zerker is the meta in pvp and condi get called “cheap”.
then u can increas the stacks applied by mesmers.

I never mained mesmer but have spent the last few months playing mine condi (no pu mtd or cs ever). What I have observed is probably one of the best builds I have ever played. One of the most balanced in terms of countering and being countered. I can not remember the last time I lost badly vs anything including cele necro. I love the fact if you are smart enough to kill my clones you stop the burst it makes sense. The days of passives doing all the work are ending for each class little by little.

Right now because of the way group cleanse works there really isn’t much you can say against condis outside 1 v 1. Condis should have their place just like zerk and sustained do. If you refuse to build to deal with condis that is up to you. The same way we have to deal with burst.

As far as stealth goes more counters are being added. Stealth is not the only defense condi mesmer has.

Tbh I am still relatively new to mesmer and it might be because of that that I do not miss the traits lost. Maybe coming from engi (which in my opinion requires a bit of juggling) I see the timing as more than burst and stealth. Some times being visible just makes the fight that easy (confusion).

As you can see already see Chaos, this thread answers your question.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/pvp/Why-does-condition-mesmer-exist/first

Silverkey.2078:

People don’t like conditions. If they take a 10k backstab from stealth it’s fine, but confusion ticking during 6s for 1.5k damage is OP.

This ^^

i always enjoy when other mesmers say thier build is harder to play because it is physical shatter.. when they run sword/torch gsword.. merauders PU decoy mass invis.

and im running rampagers scepter pistol/ gsword no pu or inspiration..

people just quote what they hear other people say i think.. they dont even know when it is propper to say these things.

I came back after a long hiatus and started playing a staff mesmer. Holy hell it’s a fun build.

But then I see what other mesmers (and other profs) can do and it only makes me sad. I haven’t changed it because I enjoy it so much, but I hate that it’s so relatively weak for no reason.

I’ve actually kind of come to the point of wanting to move to a different profession.

so funny

on necro forum ppl say condi necro is not good in team fight
condi thief also not good in team fight
condi ranger also only for 1v1 with traps
engi almost the same
warrior common …
so only cele ele with the burning and carrion guard with burning

see my point….

now lets try to compare condi necro and mesmer

mesmer can burst with 10 torment and 15 confusion if all shatter hits and cover it with 1-3 bleed and maybe burning if AA staff get spamm. even more if chaos storm on the enemy . but in reality its like 8 confusion and 8 torment which does around 2k dps for 4 sec at best

necro can burst with 15 bleeding 10 torment 2-5 poison, fear and if trait burning and can cover those with chill weakness , cripple and also transfer condition back and rip boon to conditions.
so around 3.5-4.5k dps for 4 sec

carrion guard just with 1 condition can do 4k dps for 4 sec . but in average 2.5k dps

now assume anet buff mtd back to 2 stacks so you can burst 16 torment which means you will do more 1-2.5k dps and with all the stealth ability yes it will be OP as now it will be same as carrion guard dmg and even higher

if you can see the main problem is not our condition application rather the burst
guard can burst fast in a condi spec which makes it more deadlier than power spec.
the burning need tune down a bit like with ele but than we wont see any condi build out there in pvp arena

condi will never be better than power spec in team fight as its boring to watch

thus i think ppl need to start looking for other builds around condition. like condi bunker, or condirupter or condi block etc…

I wonder if it’s a form of tax for the clones. Like, in the Necro forum just now there’s a thread about axe and how it’s designed due to special mechanics. Maybe Condi just can’t be very top of the line for Mesmer, because we can hide and let them tick a little (or a lot) more easily than other classes?

That’ll impact PvE of course but… it’s pretty much the only thing i can think of since even if the numbers are tuned there is just less support for Condi in the mesmer setup than power.

messiah.1908:

so funny

on necro forum ppl say condi necro is not good in team fight
condi thief also not good in team fight
condi ranger also only for 1v1 with traps
engi almost the same
warrior common …
so only cele ele with the burning and carrion guard with burning

see my point….

now lets try to compare condi necro and mesmer

mesmer can burst with 10 torment and 15 confusion if all shatter hits and cover it with 1-3 bleed and maybe burning if AA staff get spamm. even more if chaos storm on the enemy . but in reality its like 8 confusion and 8 torment which does around 2k dps for 4 sec at best

necro can burst with 15 bleeding 10 torment 2-5 poison, fear and if trait burning and can cover those with chill weakness , cripple and also transfer condition back and rip boon to conditions.
so around 3.5-4.5k dps for 4 sec

carrion guard just with 1 condition can do 4k dps for 4 sec . but in average 2.5k dps

now assume anet buff mtd back to 2 stacks so you can burst 16 torment which means you will do more 1-2.5k dps and with all the stealth ability yes it will be OP as now it will be same as carrion guard dmg and even higher

if you can see the main problem is not our condition application rather the burst
guard can burst fast in a condi spec which makes it more deadlier than power spec.
the burning need tune down a bit like with ele but than we wont see any condi build out there in pvp arena

condi will never be better than power spec in team fight as its boring to watch

thus i think ppl need to start looking for other builds around condition. like condi bunker, or condirupter or condi block etc…

While your analysis is correct, it’s not because guard does it better per se, or because it’s boring to watch, but because so many mainstays of this games meta have passive Ale cleanse for themselves and allies. Whether it be ele, shout guard/war/reaper, inspiration Mesmer or soon to be Druid with grace of the land, it’s just stacked against condis.

This is also a problem due to how condis and cleansing were designed in order to sync with the faster paced gameplay style, it’s inherently impossible to balance.

you are right . anet pushes for more bursty condi play . so huge burst for 1-2 sec for higher dmg than huge cleanse and heal and all over again
but still the only one who can pressure is guardian and ele atm. all the other classes need more ticking time

maybe now group can go full bursty with no cleanse at all while takig ranger who should cleanse them. so we back a bit to the holly trinity composition where each class has a role

like bunker guard , druid ranger and full zerker thief, warrior and mesmer/necro

not sure if I agree with this. ive faced some really good condi mesmers in high mmr, and theyre very effective in 1v1’s. I feel condi Mesmer is balanced atm.

mistsim.2748:

not sure if I agree with this. ive faced some really good condi mesmers in high mmr, and theyre very effective in 1v1’s. I feel condi Mesmer is balanced atm.

the pvp arena is not 1v1 that’s the problem. till you down in 1v1 a thief enemy will come to help 2v1 and you dead or disengage losing time for your team

It seems the “condi” hate chat has escalated this weekend.

If I play a power chrono or mesmer – minimal hate.

If I play any condi build – instant “condi noob” or whatever.

I seriously don’t get it. In any case my block list continues to increase.

I really don’t understand how you people can think that Condi Mesmer is justified in it’s current iteration.. Is it because you all main Mesmers or something?

It’s nothing to do with the opponent not having enough Condi cleanse either, a Mesmer can destroy a Signet necro running as much condition transfer as possible due to a combination of misdirection, blocks, blinds, stealths, distortions and the evades, all while keeping up the pressure.

I have yet to see a good condi mesmer because it’s honestly hard to tell if the person playing it is indeed good, because (and i’ve done this myself) you can literally just spawn 3 clones, and go f2f1f3f4 and It’ll kill most players..

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

I really don’t understand how you people can think that Condi Mesmer is justified in it’s current iteration.. Is it because you all main Mesmers or something?

It’s nothing to do with the opponent not having enough Condi cleanse either, a Mesmer can destroy a Signet necro running as much condition transfer as possible due to a combination of misdirection, blocks, blinds, stealths, distortions and the evades, all while keeping up the pressure.

I have yet to see a good condi mesmer because it’s honestly hard to tell if the person playing it is indeed good, because (and i’ve done this myself) you can literally just spawn 3 clones, and go f2f1f3f4 and It’ll kill most players..

Seriously, what?

First of all, spamming f2f1f3f4 won’t kill a kitten with only 3 clones and IP, unless the person the mesmer is fighting is doing their best to press all of the buttons and dies to confusion. (It will also put most of the mesmers burst, and a lot of its survivability, on simultaneous cooldown. So… there’s that.)

Second of all, as much as people like to deny it, condi mesmers have few or no cover conditions. So if you have any kind of condi clear ability, they’re neutered. A signet necro should wreck a condi mesmer, unless the necro is significantly outplayed.

I… I sincerely don’t understand people making arguments like this. “A mesmer running condis killed me, so it must be OP. Let’s ignore the fact that condi mesmers aren’t meta in anything except WvW Roaming (lawl), and see effectively no high-level play in any game mode anywhere.”

Lyssa forbid there should be a build capable of killing you, right?

Forum bug

15c

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Clone Death traits – axed.
Duelists Discipline – Nerfed on arrival by 50%
Maim the Disillusioned – Nerfed same day by 50%
Mistrust – Nerfed on arrival by 33%
Confusion – Nerfed in pvp, primarily a Mesmer condition. (at least it was)

---

As it stands, Condi Mesmer seem to get brutalized with each balance pass. This is especially odd since Condi is not even meta or viable in high end play, useless in large scale WvW (glamour bombs nerfed) and only good for soloing dungeons in PvE (less efficiently than other classes at that)

So what gives? Is Condi not supposed to be as prevalent as power? With the arrival of Herald and Druid should we not expect classes to bring condition removal? On their own, none of these traits are very worthwhile for a build versus their power damage counterpart, and even together their effectiveness is questionable.

Mistrust – Competing with DE is bad enough, but to only grant 2 stacks per interrupt isn’t worth a GM, especially not with such a pitifully small AoE. Increase by 1 stack

Maimed – You may as well move Maimed into chronomancy, because core Mesmer cannot get much value from such a low amount of torment. Increase duration at least

• - And can we get our Glamour bombs back please!? -

I don’t even play condition, and this is ridiculous. I could never recommend a trait like Mistrust to anyone, and yet condi-lock is sooo close to being a thing.

You forgot to mention that confusing combatants was ninja removed without any notice, or reason why on day 1. And replaced with the trait master fencer. Clone on death being removed was a good change as long as they add some type of alternatives, which there is 2 in pvp imo. My hyrbid condie build, and if you’re not a fan of critically thinking, then a build revolving around prismatic understanding, desperate decoy, and mirror of anguish is for you. Gotta passively react to them passives

Countless

Trigr.6481:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Clone Death traits – axed.
Duelists Discipline – Nerfed on arrival by 50%
Maim the Disillusioned – Nerfed same day by 50%
Mistrust – Nerfed on arrival by 33%
Confusion – Nerfed in pvp, primarily a Mesmer condition. (at least it was)

---

As it stands, Condi Mesmer seem to get brutalized with each balance pass. This is especially odd since Condi is not even meta or viable in high end play, useless in large scale WvW (glamour bombs nerfed) and only good for soloing dungeons in PvE (less efficiently than other classes at that)

So what gives? Is Condi not supposed to be as prevalent as power? With the arrival of Herald and Druid should we not expect classes to bring condition removal? On their own, none of these traits are very worthwhile for a build versus their power damage counterpart, and even together their effectiveness is questionable.

Mistrust – Competing with DE is bad enough, but to only grant 2 stacks per interrupt isn’t worth a GM, especially not with such a pitifully small AoE. Increase by 1 stack

Maimed – You may as well move Maimed into chronomancy, because core Mesmer cannot get much value from such a low amount of torment. Increase duration at least

• - And can we get our Glamour bombs back please!? -

I don’t even play condition, and this is ridiculous. I could never recommend a trait like Mistrust to anyone, and yet condi-lock is sooo close to being a thing.

You forgot to mention that confusing combatants was ninja removed without any notice, or reason why on day 1. And replaced with the trait master fencer. Clone on death being removed was a good change as long as they add some type of alternatives, which there is 2 in pvp imo. My hyrbid condie build, and if you’re not a fan of critically thinking, then a build revolving around prismatic understanding, desperate decoy, and mirror of anguish is for you. Gotta passively react to them passives

Countless

The most shady part was that, clone death traits were nerfed first (not ublockable, bleed stacks reduced to 2) before deleting them permanently.

I honestly felt that Anet just gave in to the whining of baddies and to the elitism of top players alike.

Yeah I hate how condis keep getting nerfed every single patch.

I feel like they do it because condi mesmer has so much survivability. They usually have more toughness (and vit if dire), block with scepter, escape/defense with staff, stealth, blink.

Imagine if a mesmer could just burst tons of condis then jump around kiting for days like trololololol hahahaha letting the condis tick.
… The thing is. It only works in 1v1’s in pvp & wvw roaming. Which isn’t being balanced around.
So nerfing condi mesmers serves no real purpose competitive wise.

Oh and please give us confusing combatants. Still kittened about that.