Guild Wars 2

@Xyonon: Thanks for doing that. I was too tired to wade through that post right now.

Pyroatheist.9031:

@Xyonon: Thanks for doing that. I was too tired to wade through that post right now.

Had to edit the whole thing about 3 times -.-’’ Crazy quote thing makes it look weird sometimes – but btw – np :P

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I’d take 10/30/0/0/30 with staff + sword/sword for general PvE actually. Staff has faster clone CDs than GS and AOE tags better, and 4x Mantra makes your shatters hit extremely hard.

Lol, this is sooo wrong on so many levels, are you trolling?

With your trait setup, staff clones will be on a 8 sec cooldown and phantasm on 14.5 sec.
With mine, GS clones are on 4.8 sec cooldown and phantasm on 12 sec.

GS has AoE on attack 1 (piercing), 2 (bouncing), 3 (area) , 4 (iZerker) and 5(frontal). Good luck with your mediocre bounces on Staff 1 and Chaos Storm on 35 sec cooldown.

Honestly, we know that you hate the GS, but don’t give wrong advice to people, that will make you look really bad and uninformed.

You know, Guanglai Kangyi tends to just write stuff. No matter how wrong it is.
Ever since the thingy above from another thread, I simply ignored him for spreading all this BS…

Xyonon.3987:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

1) The phantasms you get access to are MUCH better. Plus if you are playing dedicated range you get access to two via offhand swapping.

Ignoring the fact that the phantasms aren’t much better – Using a GS doesn’t mean you can’t swap. In any weapon combination you will have 2 different phantasms, aslong as you don’t use 2 times the same offhand … Your argument makes no sense at all.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

2) You don’t have to sit at 1000+ range all of the time to get damage. The closer you are to the target, the easier it is to give/get AOE buffs.

You don’t have to sit at 1000+ range all of the time to get *max damage.
I’m not even sure that the scepter outdamages the GS in melee. They probably gonna have the same dps, just that the GS has penetration. But I don’t have exact numbers here right now.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

3) Confusing Images is way better damage than anything on the GS. It’s not enough to overtake the raw auto-attack DPS difference but it is there.

The skill takes about 4 seconds to complete. However it deals great damage to up to 5 targets in it’s path, the damage isn’t that bursty as it looks. I’m not ingame so I don’t have exact numbers on this one, but I bet it’s not that much higher than GS aa’s in this time (except you manage to hit 5 targets) Also you won’t have the ability to stack might or remove protection or other boons like the GS. To be fair you will have a very strong block with probably the highest dps of all the GS/scepter skills.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Overall, one Swordsman, one Duelist, and one clone on top of scepter auto will overtake three Berserkers and GS auto in terms of raw DPS, not to mention that it’s much easier to maintain two phantasms using two weapons than to maintain three using one.21

This is totaly male cow excrement.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Phantasm-DPS-traited-vs-untraited/first

DpS:
Swordsman – 144
Berserker – 115
Duelist – 98
Warlock – 81
Warden – 81
Mariner 67
Mage – 30
Whaler – 28
Disenchanter – 21
Defender – 18

If you now stop ignoring the fact that the Zerker is AoE you might get an idea how much damage the phantasms really deal. Even if you hit just one target, the berserker is still about the same as the duelist (bleeding) and a bit weaker than the swordsman. If there are at least 2 tagets, you won’t be able to outdamage them anymore. And there are more than one target, since you are ranged – otherwise you would take sword/sword and go melee. Also if you are forced to range an enemy he will be dangerious and you need distance – guess wich phantasm has cripple?

Also you can still (as I have already mentioned before) switch weapons and use another phantasm offhand if you want to. If you need full range and you play sc/sw + sc/p I’ll go for GS + sc/s. I guess I’ll be fine. And if you use sword on other hand – so will I.

Check first if you say something plz.

Considering the damage dealt drops below swordsman and duelist if only 3 hits connect, yes there are better phantasms.

I don’t really get why GS fanatics use the AoE argument either, it’s relevant basically never, unless you think “tagging mobs” is a legitimate defense.

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Kaiyanwan.8521:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I’d take 10/30/0/0/30 with staff + sword/sword for general PvE actually. Staff has faster clone CDs than GS and AOE tags better, and 4x Mantra makes your shatters hit extremely hard.

Lol, this is sooo wrong on so many levels, are you trolling?

With your trait setup, staff clones will be on a 8 sec cooldown and phantasm on 14.5 sec.
With mine, GS clones are on 4.8 sec cooldown and phantasm on 12 sec.

GS has AoE on attack 1 (piercing), 2 (bouncing), 3 (area) , 4 (iZerker) and 5(frontal). Good luck with your mediocre bounces on Staff 1 and Chaos Storm on 35 sec cooldown.

Honestly, we know that you hate the GS, but don’t give wrong advice to people, that will make you look really bad and uninformed.

You know, Guanglai Kangyi tends to just write stuff. No matter how wrong it is.
Ever since the thingy above from another thread, I simply ignored him for spreading all this BS…

I wouldn’t ignore him. He talks in theoreticals (practical application obviously differs slightly) but he’s rarely wrong.

colesy.8490:

I wouldn’t ignore him. He talks in theoreticals (practical application obviously differs slightly) but he’s rarely wrong.

Have you read by any chance his theoretical nonsense I posted?

And that was written like a few days ago, not in ancient times…

Theoretical nonsense such as … thieves and eles have higher DPS than warriors? Nonsense like phantasmal swordsman being no. 1 phantasm? Why yes, I have.

If you would stop seeing red and arguing for the hell of it, you’d realise he isn’t insane. Random recent example, axe auto is said to be on par with hundred blades, sko I tested on cursed shore, and assuming all crits, auto would kill a mob (3.6s chain vs. 3.5s hb channel). Can’t remember the hb results, but I remember mobs tended to die either at the end or close to the end of the channel.

colesy.8490:

Considering the damage dealt drops below swordsman and duelist if only 3 hits connect, yes there are better phantasms.

I dunny why you allways come up with this. I rarely see my izerker hit for less than 8k. He does however – sometimes.

colesy.8490:

I don’t really get why GS fanatics use the AoE argument either, it’s relevant basically never, unless you think “tagging mobs” is a legitimate defense.

Xyonon.3987:

If there are at least 2 tagets, you won’t be able to outdamage them anymore. And there are more than one target, since you are ranged – otherwise you would take sword/sword and go melee. Also if you are forced to range an enemy he will be dangerious and you need distance – guess wich phantasm has cripple?

Because taking out enemies one by one is by far not as efficient as killing them simultaneously.

About the “Guanglai Kangyi”-Thing – just beacuse it’s not a common build and it’s not mainstream doesn’t mean it’s bad. So try it first before complaining about Guanglai.

Look, I am not the greatest numbers fetishist, but I know the fundamentals. Theory crafting is all good and nice and it has its place.

I obviously didn’t participate in yet another dungeons topic for a reason. People know my POV. Play the way you can handle it.
If you cannot play melee (if you feel it is too hard) play ranged. If you do not like playing melee, play ranged.
If you do not like having ranged people in your group, get others.
Everything else is just a total waste of time arguing. More DPS, less DPS, all futile for the average John Doe.

But giving totally wrong advise to new players just for the sake of hate for GS is not acceptatble.

Because warden is just too hard to use.

Again, when is GS actually relevant and where sword and warden cleave won’t do the job just fine?

But giving totally wrong advise to new players just for the sake of hate for GS is not acceptatble.

Priceless. All of you bads telling ignorant newbies to use GS really isn’t acceptable, no, and yet you persist. “Use this bad weapon guys, but ignore the filthy elitists who suggest you to use … good weapons!”

That’s not the current topic. The topic is “Scepter vs GS”. As for me this seems like an enemy that kills everything in melee range immediately. :P I would go sw as much as i can too you know that.

C’mon cosley, he wrote this in this thread:

GS Mesmer PvE Build

Akerhage.5419:

Im playing a GS Mesmer, just playing casual PvE with her. No dungeons, no PvP, WvW, Fractals etc. And no intend to do either.

Would you suggest staff and S/S?

Would you? Would this be the result of your theoretical approach?

Focus would be better than off-hand sword if you wanted more AoE, but the weapon sets look fine to me.

since when do you like the staff colesy? o.O

OK, so staff for AoE and shatter in open world it is then, thx cosley for this great advise.

I am out of here, was off-topic anyway…

since when do you like the staff colesy? o.O

Since people started spamming the obnoxious “zerker is AoE” argument. I guess staff is top DPS then because lots of numbers.

More seriously, it tags fine in open world PvE.

OK, so staff for AoE and shatter in open world it is then, thx cosley for this great advise.

Chaos storm is a pulsing AoE which means that while iZerker whirled past, chaos storm will be able to hit more mobs if they are running through the field.

Shatter is also better in open world PvE since mobs there have HP pools on the player’s level so the burst will kill mobs quickly, the reason it’s bad in dungeons is because the silvers and bosses have bloated HP pools.

I usually play Sword,Sword/Sword,Focus but sometimes i Switch to Staff/Sword,Fokus because I need a range weapon. Even if the autoattack doesn’t hit as hard as spatial surge with a staff you can easily teleport out of aoes (e.g. lupicus bubble) and grant aegis to you and your teammates and most important: you can chill out in any bossfight.

Well Chaosstorm can hit up to 5 different targets at the same time. How much has GS? 3 or 5? Dunno, hoever it can hit upt to [enter 3 or 5 here] in every swirl. So for PvE farming against large groups, it hits more different mobs than the staff – sadly.

Sometimes 5 enemies just feels too weak as an aoe :/ At least we have shatter too.

colesy.8490:

Chaos storm is a pulsing AoE which means that while iZerker whirled past, chaos storm will be able to hit more mobs if they are running through the field.

Incorrect actually, for multiple reasons. So firstly, chaos storm is on a 35 second untraited cooldown, compared to the zerker which is on a 20 second cooldown, generally traited to at least 16. That alone makes the zerker far far better.

Additionally, the way whirlwind skills work is that they basically drag an aoe circle with them as they move. This aoe circle pulses a certain number of times as it is dragged across. Each of these pulses is a separate aoe (not sure if 5 target or 3 target, this would be exceedingly difficult to test). Since the zerker pulses 4 times, that means it will hit up to (12-20) targets rapidly and over a much larger area than chaos storm.

The greatsword is a far better aoe tagging tool than the staff. This isn’t a massively debateable topic.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Thats exactly what I meant. Well gonna record a zerker once and watch it afterwards, should be easy to detect in slomo.

Pyroatheist.9031:

colesy.8490:

Chaos storm is a pulsing AoE which means that while iZerker whirled past, chaos storm will be able to hit more mobs if they are running through the field.

Incorrect actually, for multiple reasons. So firstly, chaos storm is on a 35 second untraited cooldown, compared to the zerker which is on a 20 second cooldown, generally traited to at least 16. That alone makes the zerker far far better.

Additionally, the way whirlwind skills work is that they basically drag an aoe circle with them as they move. This aoe circle pulses a certain number of times as it is dragged across. Each of these pulses is a separate aoe (not sure if 5 target or 3 target, this would be exceedingly difficult to test). Since the zerker pulses 4 times, that means it will hit up to (12-20) targets rapidly and over a much larger area than chaos storm.

The greatsword is a far better aoe tagging tool than the staff. This isn’t a massively debateable topic.

I know right, that single target autoattack is great at tagging.

Chaos Storm persists for five seconds too, which means it can hit an equal or greater number of enemies than the zerker during that time if the enemies were dispersed but then grouped up as they were aggro’d, though after the field expires obviously the efficiency drops off completely.

I also don’t see how bads traiting their greatsword makes the iZerker better, that takes some leap in logic to draw that conclusion.

colesy.8490:

I know right, that single target autoattack is great at tagging.

Chaos Storm persists for five seconds too, which means it can hit an equal or greater number of enemies than the zerker during that time if the enemies were dispersed but then grouped up as they were aggro’d, though after the field expires obviously the efficiency drops off completely.

I also don’t see how bads traiting their greatsword makes the iZerker better, that takes some leap in logic to draw that conclusion.

Ok. Lets go through and analyse the situation shall we?

First, most offensive builds will be using 20 domination. This allows you to trait the greatsword. Additionally, if your focus is aoe tagging, the greatsword is the best weapon, meaning that traiting it is your best choice. On top of that, the iZerker is affected by illusionists celerity, if you choose to take it. Chaos storm isn’t. Lastly, the staff cd trait is in chaos, which no offensive PvE tagging build will ever take.

Autoattacks

• Staff: The staff autoattack is an excruciatingly slow bouncing projectile that hits an absolute maximum of 3 targets, but more likely just 1 or 2. Additionally, it is so slow that in DE situations for open world PvE, the mob you attacked is likely dead by the time it gets there.
• Greatsword: The greatsword autoattack is an instantaneous 1200 range 3 target aoe beam attack. There is no travel time, and so it provides instant tags from 1200 range.

Clear winner: Greatsword

Clone Generating Skill

• Staff: Phase retreat is an awesome skill. Unfortunately, it does nothing for tagging.
• Greatsword: Mirror blade is a 1200 range unblockable bouncing projectile attack that moves quickly and does good damage.

Clear Winner: Greatsword

Low CD Utility Skill

• Staff: Chaos Armor is a pretty good skill in PvP…not so much in PvE
• Greatsword: Mind stab isn’t the best of skills, but it is an instant 1200 range 5 target aoe damage skill.

Clear Winner: Greatsword

Phantasm

• Staff: The iWarlock does incredible single target damage, and I encourage people to use staff for large champ/boss fights because of this. Unfortunately, we’re talking aoe.
• Greatsword: The iZerker does high aoe damage in a large area around a target very rapidly at 1200 range. It spins quickly and will do its aoe hits fast enough to tag multiple enemies easily. It also hits between 12 and 20 targets.

Clear Winner: Greatsword

Long Cooldown Utility Skill

• Staff: Chaos Storm is a great aoe tagging tool. Unfortunately, it’s on a 35 second cooldown.
• Greatsword: Illusionary wave isn’t particularly good for anything in PvE unfortunately.

Winner: Staff

So, lets compare things. Out of the greatsword’s 5 skills, 3 are fantastic for long range aoe tagging. 1 is decent, and 1 is meh. Out of the staffs 5 skills, 1 is fantastic for long range aoe tagging, and 1 is meh, and 3 are completely useless.

Greatsword is THE weapon of choice for long range aoe tagging. There is no other effective option for mesmer.

Well you have to be fair Pyro – Back in my early days I used to play staff + sigill of geo + mirror images to deal aoe. I say the staff is much more useful for shattering than the gs is, since you can innitiate with the normal sword and switch weapons (proc sigil for awesome dmg (yes it does awesome dmg), mirror images and 2 so your clones are IN the enemies mkittentering hits 5 targets and if you use mirror images on range the clones will just hit the edge.

I say for a normal phantasm build GS has a better aoe tagging for sure, but the staff is more useful unter given conditions.

Xyonon.3987:

Well you have to be fair Pyro – Back in my early days I used to play staff + sigill of geo + mirror images to deal aoe. I say the staff is much more useful for shattering than the gs is, since you can innitiate with the normal sword and switch weapons (proc sigil for awesome dmg (yes it does awesome dmg), mirror images and 2 so your clones are IN the enemies mkittentering hits 5 targets and if you use mirror images on range the clones will just hit the edge.

I say for a normal phantasm build GS has a better aoe tagging for sure, but the staff is more useful unter given conditions.

I’m talking pure long range aoe. You’re in a dynamic event, running around, and frantically tagging stuff as much as possible. You can’t use sword, running into melee would take too long. Shatters on too long of a cooldown for effective tagging, but you CAN use shatters better with greatsword than anything else since mirror blade produces a clone on target, as does iZerker. Staff has 0 capability to produce on target illusions.

I can’t believe we’re arguing about tagging mobs.

First, most offensive builds will be using 20 domination

Most bad builds you mean.

•Staff: The staff autoattack is an excruciatingly slow bouncing projectile that hits an absolute maximum of 3 targets, but more likely just 1 or 2. Additionally, it is so slow that in DE situations for open world PvE, the mob you attacked is likely dead by the time it gets there.
•Greatsword: The greatsword autoattack is an instantaneous 1200 range 3 target aoe beam attack. There is no travel time, and so it provides instant tags from 1200 range.

To hit three targets you need to align yourself, so let’s say the hypothetical staff mesmer moves in close so the auto can reach its target quicker.

Clone Generating Skill

•Staff: Phase retreat is an awesome skill. Unfortunately, it does nothing for tagging.
•Greatsword: Mirror blade is a 1200 range unblockable bouncing projectile attack that moves quickly and does good damage.

Doesn’t phase retreat make a clone? Get up close, retreat then you have shatter fodder?

•Staff: Chaos Armor is a pretty good skill in PvP…not so much in PvE
•Greatsword: Mind stab isn’t the best of skills, but it is an instant 1200 range 5 target aoe damage skill.

meh

•Staff: The iWarlock does incredible single target damage, and I encourage people to use staff for large champ/boss fights because of this. Unfortunately, we’re talking aoe.
•Greatsword: The iZerker does high aoe damage in a large area around a target very rapidly at 1200 range. It spins quickly and will do its aoe hits fast enough to tag multiple enemies easily. It also hits between 12 and 20 targets.

Hitting 12-20 targets will never happen. More like 4-6. Cue greatsword bads taking a screen cap of it hitting tons of mobs.

So, lets compare things. Out of the greatsword’s 5 skills, 3 are fantastic for long range aoe tagging. 1 is decent, and 1 is meh. Out of the staffs 5 skills, 1 is fantastic for long range aoe tagging, and 1 is meh, and 3 are completely useless.

Greatsword is THE weapon of choice for long range aoe tagging. There is no other effective option for mesmer.

I still can’t believe it. Arguing about tagging mobs.

Is there really that little going for greatsword that the only thing you can write paragraphs on is mob tagging?

colesy.8490:

Is there really that little going for greatsword that the only thing you can write paragraphs on is mob tagging?

The discussion at hand is regarding mob tagging. Winching about how I’m talking about mob tagging in a discussion regarding mob tagging is a bit odd, don’t you think?

You were arguing that staff is better for tagging mobs. I showed that you are wrong. Complaining that I’m just talking about tagging mobs isn’t going to change that. You don’t see me writing paragraphs on the defense of greatsword for killing dungeon bosses because it’s generally not the best weapon there, but this case is different.

colesy live – main reason to say something is to “prove” them wrong – even if its completly nonesense sometimes.

Xyonon.3987:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

2) You don’t have to sit at 1000+ range all of the time to get damage. The closer you are to the target, the easier it is to give/get AOE buffs.

You don’t have to sit at 1000+ range all of the time to get *max damage.
I’m not even sure that the scepter outdamages the GS in melee. They probably gonna have the same dps, just that the GS has penetration. But I don’t have exact numbers here right now.

GS AA at 600 range is pretty much on par with scepter AA at any range, at least in some testing I did (though of course scepter AA is slightly quicker when closer than that):

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Searching-for-a-PvE-dungeon-build/page/2#post2941137

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Searching-for-a-PvE-dungeon-build/page/2#post2942154

You can still spam GS AA (while waiting to get back to sw-w/e) and be in 600 boon sharing range. That, plus the other reasons I stated (3rd phantasm the biggie), makes GS vs Scepter a negligible difference, if we’re on that argument.

Staff is better than GS in dungeons. There are utility reasons for taking a staff.

Piercing attacks are awful. Most of the time they only hit 1 maybe 2 targets. But to reliably hit multiple targets you need to have mobs bunched up and you need to be close (partially because you dont want them to disperse). If you are close with GS then the auto is gonna be even more terrible. Atleast with staff you can just sit in the chaos storm and bounce that auto attack. Still ill just stick with my superior sword auto combined with iwarden.

Xyonon.3987:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

1) The phantasms you get access to are MUCH better. Plus if you are playing dedicated range you get access to two via offhand swapping.

Ignoring the fact that the phantasms aren’t much better – Using a GS doesn’t mean you can’t swap. In any weapon combination you will have 2 different phantasms, aslong as you don’t use 2 times the same offhand … Your argument makes no sense at all.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

2) You don’t have to sit at 1000+ range all of the time to get damage. The closer you are to the target, the easier it is to give/get AOE buffs.

You don’t have to sit at 1000+ range all of the time to get *max damage.
I’m not even sure that the scepter outdamages the GS in melee. They probably gonna have the same dps, just that the GS has penetration. But I don’t have exact numbers here right now.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

3) Confusing Images is way better damage than anything on the GS. It’s not enough to overtake the raw auto-attack DPS difference but it is there.

The skill takes about 4 seconds to complete. However it deals great damage to up to 5 targets in it’s path, the damage isn’t that bursty as it looks. I’m not ingame so I don’t have exact numbers on this one, but I bet it’s not that much higher than GS aa’s in this time (except you manage to hit 5 targets) Also you won’t have the ability to stack might or remove protection or other boons like the GS. To be fair you will have a very strong block with probably the highest dps of all the GS/scepter skills.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

Overall, one Swordsman, one Duelist, and one clone on top of scepter auto will overtake three Berserkers and GS auto in terms of raw DPS, not to mention that it’s much easier to maintain two phantasms using two weapons than to maintain three using one.21

This is totaly male cow excrement.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Phantasm-DPS-traited-vs-untraited/first

DpS:
Swordsman – 144
Berserker – 115
Duelist – 98
Warlock – 81
Warden – 81
Mariner 67
Mage – 30
Whaler – 28
Disenchanter – 21
Defender – 18

If you now stop ignoring the fact that the Zerker is AoE you might get an idea how much damage the phantasms really deal. Even if you hit just one target, the berserker is still about the same as the duelist (bleeding) and a bit weaker than the swordsman. If there are at least 2 tagets, you won’t be able to outdamage them anymore. And there are more than one target, since you are ranged – otherwise you would take sword/sword and go melee. Also if you are forced to range an enemy he will be dangerious and you need distance – guess wich phantasm has cripple?

Also you can still (as I have already mentioned before) switch weapons and use another phantasm offhand if you want to. If you need full range and you play sc/sw + sc/p I’ll go for GS + sc/s. I guess I’ll be fine. And if you use sword on other hand – so will I.

Check first if you say something plz.

Using just that list you quoted:

2x Swordsmen = 144 × 2 = 288
3x Berserkers (all 4 hits) = 115 x3 = 345
3x Berserkers (3 hits) = 86 × 3 = 258
3x Berserkers (2 hits) = 58 × 3 = 174

So basically:

Against most targets (2 hits on Zerker): 2x Swordsmen is 65% better than 3x Zerkers
Against big targets (3 hits on Zerker): 11% better
Against massive/movement-impeding targets: 17% worse

And that’s not even taking into consideration how much easier it is to maintain two phantasms on two weapons versus three on one.

Personally, the weapon set you use is dependent on the fight. Some bosses (especially in fractals are range and GS is fine for that). I like the GS mainly for tagging as many targets as I can when zerging (like in the labyrinth right now). With the Superior Sigil of Fire and my high crit chance I tag a lot of targets for loot with the GS (way more than you can do with a staff). But yes, in melee situations definitely go with S/S or S/F. Pistols I don’t use as much anymore and will probably less now with this latest patch.

I wish they let mesmers duel wield pistols, now that would be cool.

Saraneth.6021:

It’s funny. I always take GS. Always. I am always the last one left alive. I am always the one who can do the most dmg due to always being alive. Go figure.

1) You aren’t doing the most damage. Players in melee range are out-damaging you by a considerable margin.

2) It’s easy to be the last man standing when you remain at 1200 range, dealing inferior damage.

3) Being the last man standing is neither an accolade nor something you brag about. Your team still wiped and you still need to start over. There are no bonus rewards for being the last one left alive during a given fight.

4) I recognize the logical flaws in generalizing, and admit that this observation is entirely anecdotal, but in my experience the last person left alive is generally the one contributing the least to the group. Based on your post, I could make a compelling argument that you fit that generalization.

Pistol is an extremely powerful phantasm and it would be remiss to not use it in dungeons/fractals. Also, the pistol 5 skill is also very powerful when either fighting trash or running from trash.

I have to say, with yesterdays patch Scepter should be stronger than GS no? I mean, I use GS with sigil of fire, but im thinking scepter with Sigil of force and offhand pistol or sword with sigil of battle would out damage GS? Im not really sure. Ive always liked Scepter to be honest because I charge mantra of pain before every third attack when I Want to keep phantasms up. shrug

Kilandros.2098:

Saraneth.6021:

It’s funny. I always take GS. Always. I am always the last one left alive. I am always the one who can do the most dmg due to always being alive. Go figure.

1) You aren’t doing the most damage. Players in melee range are out-damaging you by a considerable margin.

2) It’s easy to be the last man standing when you remain at 1200 range, dealing inferior damage.

3) Being the last man standing is neither an accolade nor something you brag about. Your team still wiped and you still need to start over. There are no bonus rewards for being the last one left alive during a given fight.

4) I recognize the logical flaws in generalizing, and admit that this observation is entirely anecdotal, but in my experience the last person left alive is generally the one contributing the least to the group. Based on your post, I could make a compelling argument that you fit that generalization.

Pretty much this. “I was the last man standing because I used X gear/weapon” also translates to “The rest of my group died because I was using X gear/weapon.”

Typically if the group wipes and you’re still alive, it means one of two things:

1) You are a super pro who can avoid all attacks and solo everything.
2) You were in tank gear and/or standing out of the zone of the danger.

If it’s the former, good on you. If you’re giving the GS credit for not dying, though, it’s probably the latter. Which means “last man standing” is downright bad because it means you didn’t do your job healing/supporting/tanking/whatever you were planning to be doing while not DPSing.

GK: even against most small-sized mobs in PvE the GS phantasm hits 3x+ consistently. Yes, it was bugged for a time (and everyone on the forums complained about it) but if your memories of the iZerker are from back then, you need to re-evaluate. The list Xyonon quoted was from actual observed tests against free-standing golems, so applying your own down-scaling based on the erroneous assumption that they miss far more than they actually did in practice is pretty silly. Your original argument was 1 sword + 1 duel > 3 zerker, which is plainly false, without even considering the difference in AA dps.

Note that I’m not arguing with your actual position which is that Sw/X+Y is generally better in dungeon fights than Sw/X and GS — that’s true, I agree, most cases full-melee is the clear choice. I’d just like you (and colesy) to stop claiming the GS is absolutely entirely useless in every conceivable situation, and that staff or scepter are better when they clearly aren’t.

Side-note – I’ve actually really found Illusionary Wave surprisingly useful recently in one specific fight: the Clockheart at the end of TA Aetherpath. Running GS+S/F for positioning the Holo Pirate to break his shielding has been invaluable — several times, an Into the Void + Blink + Wave + Mirror Blade + iZerker + Stab + Mind Wrack combo has gotten me a clutch shield-break from a way-out-of-range hologram.
It’s useful enough that even in a fight that is SUPPOSED to be pure-melee I end up keeping a GS swap just for the ‘useless’ Wave; kinda ironic.

Anyway, GS camping mesmers are more a l2p issue than a bad-weapon issue, much the same as bearbow rangers. If all they’ve played with is other PUGs where nobody stacks and LoS is an unheard-of concept, it’s not surprising they play how they do. I could bring up the recent COF p2 run I did with a staff-camping guard who didn’t ever switch weapons or even bother to hit Empower once in a while – just sat there auto-attacking his little heart out — but using that guy to claim that Guard staff is worthless would be pretty dumb.

It’s also important to recognize that it’s a LOT easier to be full-melee when you’re in a good group where everyone else is bringing banners and boons, guards are pumping out Aegis to block big hits, and overall DPS is high enough that you don’t die. I’ve often been in groups where there’s zero might and fury on average – where I don’t even slot Sig of Inspiration since there aren’t even enough boons on me to bother duplicating.
In situations like that, keeping a GS swap so I can pull out and range when I’m close to dead ends up working far better than staying full-melee, lying dead on the floor, and then kittening out the rest of the group for being bad.

Just want to disclaim that I actually pug more than I run with “pro” organized groups and I do fine in full melee.

Anyway, I did a test with iZerker in Mists and:

1) Zerker hits twice on human-sized targets. I tried it on every class NPC and never saw it hit more than twice. Sometimes it even hit only once but that was rare.
2) Zerker has a pretty even split between 2-3 hits on medium-sized targets like the target golems. I think it is because of the way the Zerker spaces itself, if it has to run in to get in range, it will hit 3 times at max spin distance but then end up close and only hit twice for the next spin. In other words, it’s still 50/50.
3) I saw it hit 4 times ONCE. I don’t think it’s realistic to ever expect it to happen on any reasonably-sized mob but it is possible I guess. However, obstructions in terrain do seem to “wall” the spin even if it’s not actually a wall. The little brick rings around the target golems on the east side of the Mists lobby is enough to wall it for a full 4 hits.
4) The first hit, unless it is walled, seems to hit twice something like 90% of the time. I think this is because the iZerker spawns closer than necessary to the target so it starts its spin too close.

Since most mobs are in fact bigger than human-sized, I think 2.kittens on average is realistic for iZerkers. It will do more against big targets and ones that move around a lot (causing them to reposition to max range).

I doubt you will ever average more than 3 hits on the the majority of mobs so I think my overall assessment of 2x Swordsmen vs. 3x Zerkers is still mostly accurate.

i would say for dungeon it is very situational….

It is allways situational, but these threads allways become a X is better than Y thing and somone is yelling “it’s not because Z is better than X!” … It doesn’t make sense, don’t think about it.

Weapon choice is a sitational thing, based on enemies, allies and traits.

DeWolfe.2174:

The best weapon is the one you enjoy!
-End of line-

Best comment in this thread so far.

I just can support this. Why should I play 100% damage with 50% fun instead of 80% damage with 100% fun? I play for fun! For efficiency I go to work.

However for me personally 100% efficiency and 100% fun is the same :P Thats why I carry all the weapons with me and run a flexible build.. ^^

Anyone who is praying 100% efficiency and complaining about pugs being not efficient needs a high-five, in the face, with a chair, made of steel, twice.

I would be happy with 50% efficiency on most pugs. In fact I consider that a good pug. The problem is most pugs are way less than that, around 20% if anything. And GS-camping mesmers are part of that problem.

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

I would be happy with 50% efficiency on most pugs. In fact I consider that a good pug. The problem is most pugs are way less than that, around 20% if anything. And GS-camping mesmers are part of that problem.

Don’t pug, problem solved. Save yourself that trouble, that risk. Just don’t pug.

And if you pug, don’t moan or complain. It was your own decision to do so, you knew that this might happen. Leave it, if you cannot handle it, but don’t complain.

When was this ever about pugs anyway? Unless you’re trying to say that it’s okay to run GS in pugs because no one will call you out on it, in which case I beg to differ. Range-camping GS mesmer is one of the easiest things in the world to spot and I always kick the instant I see the beam.

What I don’t get is the argument that GS is more “fun”. The weapon is boring as kitten in PvE.

It’s got a fast clone spawn that looks cool and a big laser I guess.

Awesome sound and animations :P

At this point I have to mention that it makes a huge difference if somone is using the GS like “TAB, 1, TAB, 1, TAB, 1” or if the mesmer makes some positionings and aims for the farest target to hit multiple enemies in a line.

“But why are you coming with the AoE argument now!? Dungeons aren’t AoE anyway!”

Since one is using the GS there must be a AoE part in this dungeon. Like it exists in any dungeon. It’s just naive to beleve that there are only 5v1 in dungeons.

I don’t say you should run GS if there are many enemies, I would go melee with sword, but I’m saying IF one goes for GS, the player is aware of melee and uses it against multiple targets. Better than be downed all the time. Its easier of course.

Honestly, people just use the GS because it is their best PvE choice outside of dungeons, as it is their most efficient tool there. If people do not run dungeons frequently, they will fall back on what they know to do.

But we had this discussion before.

Pretty much this. But even in dungeons there are some parts where I don’t wanna miss the GS. I often use it in CoF 2 for example. Especially last 2 rooms.