Guild Wars 2

I sucked it up with iDisenchanter.
I never used torch, so didn’t worry about iMage
… But shield is the last straw.

STOP BEING AFRAID OF OUR PHANTASMS!
Phantasms with bounce-based projectiles do not work anet. This game isn’t balanced around 1v1s or smallscale encounters, bosses obliterate phantasms in a single swipe, and any block/dodge/blind/reflect/wiggle completely ruins the effect, leaving most of these phantasms on a rather long recharge before their next (likely failing) attack.
I understand if these phantasms are given bouncing attacks out of fear of them being too powerful. On paper, a phantasm that can remove 2 condis and boons per hit seems really strong, so is a phantasm that applies alacrity/slow and so is fury/burning. But in practice, giving these phantasms a bouncing projectile out of fear that any other application would be too strong is actually crippling them. It doesn’t matter how good it’s “supposed” to be if it never has a chance to actually work!

BOUNCES DON’T WORK. SO WHAT DOES?
Phantasms with bouncing projectiles tend to offer a bonus to allies and a detriment to enemies, but more often than not they just tend to do nothing. The bounce often doesn’t even reach back to the Mesmer if they’re not within range, and that’s assuming the projectile ever hit in the first place. As a result, these phantasms have extremely situation application and tend to be nearly forgettable. Ontop of that there’s other problems with said phantasms.

• iDisenchanter has a low cooldown & and a fast attack rate. That’s all well and good, but it dies way too often and has the most obnoxious cast-time ever. Despite the fact that it’s effect is great, this is one of our worst Phantasms simply because of how it attacks. This phantasm only excels in small-scale fights of 3v3 or less, and even then it struggles.
  - (Casts minor Null Field (one pulse), removing 2 condis and 2 boons every 6 seconds in an AoE)

• iMage is still forgettable, because while burning used to be cool.. One stack is pitiful compared to .. oh.. every other kitten thing that applies a condition! The fury rarely makes it back to the Mesmer, and even when it does it’s easy to go unnoticed.
  - (Creates a line of purple fire that lasts 3s every 8s. Enemies that cross the line gain 2s of burning, allies gain 2s fury)

• iAvenger "FOR FREEDO- /miss. "STARS AND STRI- /block “GOOD WORK, SOLDIER!” Even when iAvenger hits, it’s only achievement is the slow it applies to an enemy. Then it just kind of sits there and happily dies thinking itself a martyr. If this phantasm is to be our only consistent method of sharing Alacrity, then by god please allow it to actually share some effing alacrity!
  - (Raises shield and shouts " ’murica!" granting 2s Alacrity & inflicting 2s slow to all targets within 600r every 6 seconds)

What do you think? Do you not mind our bouncing phantasms or would you rather see them changed? If so what tweaks would you make?

Preach it, brother.

• Raises hands in the air *
  I believe!

Honestly:
1. Make them singularly good at whatever think is most appropriate. No bounces, just effects. You want iCap to apply alacrity? Make it an aoe pulse, and just let the shield throw be a regular-damage attack. You want iCap to just apply alacrity and not be a damage phantasm? Make it a utility phant that just applies alacrity to allies! You want iMage to burn? Give it enough burn stacks to matter, and stop the bouncing. iWarden is a great example of good attack design (could use some more hp).
2. Utility phantasms should have more health. Phantasms have less health in pvp because it’s unbalancing if independent sources of damage are too hard to counterplay. Utility phantasms deal no damage, and if they don’t last very long they give very little benefit at all.

Phantasm-by-phantasm, my requests:
iDuelist: No change needed, just fix Duelist’s Discipline please
iSwordsman: No change needed
iBerserker: No change needed
iWarlock: Fix its accuracy. Come up with a way to make it scale off condition damage. Staff is a condition/utility weapon, that just happens to have a pretty boss power attack. It doesn’t fit in, most power builds don’t take the weapon because it’s not part of that meta, so please give condition builds and utility builds some benefit from this phantasm other than shatter food.
iMage: 2 stacks of burning, no bounce, slightly lower attack cooldown to account for no bounce. Shave a little off the base cooldown: iSwordsman is 12s traited, iDuelist is 16s traited. Even 20% cdr would take iMage to 24s. It’s just too long compared to its competitors.
iCaptainAmerica: 1.5s AoE Alacrity per pulse (240? range), pulse when attack. Increase attack damage slightly. Slow target on attack. Lower attack cooldown a little bit.
iDisenchanter: Lots more hp. Makes separate attacks against each target, rather than bouncing. Same limitations/target preferences as before (only targets up to 3 enemies if there are no allies, prefers allies). It gains in that bouncing geometry doesn’t get in the way of targeting, but it loses in that no ally can be affected more than once per attack. In general, improved reliability makes it worth having, where now it just isn’t.
iDefender: Lots more hp, esp. in pvp. iDefender just isn’t a very good defender, since it dies in pretty much one hit anyway.

Okay, that was more than I expected to type.

Good post as usual, Chaos.

I have to agree on the bouncing Phantasms. And bouncing skills in general, really. They’re awkward to use and prone to degenerate use cases (Mirror Blade burst).

One thing I’ll say is that I often find myself wishing we had more Blast finishers. We also have two Phantasms with Whirl finishers, one with Projectile finishers, and one with Leap finishers. If iMage, say, got a Blast finisher, I would be pretty ok with that.

Also, while your suggestion for iCap is obviously more useful in gameplay terms, I’d still kind of miss the bouncy shield if it ever went away.

I think a better application of the Phants with bounce would instead be:

This Phantasm attacks by creating a line towards the enemy and then exploding outwards. The line and explosion created both (meaning you can get it twice) apply X boon to allies and Y condition to enemies. The attack deals damage (bar conditions) to only the main target and only once. Both the line and explosion do not linger.

This also gives the possibility of having a Phantasm that creates fields.

I agree with OP and also with AlphatheWhite when it comes to higher HP for utility phantasm. Those phantasms are designed for group fights (because they specifically mention “allies”) but do not last more than 1s in a group fight (the 1s is the 1s distorsion from inspiration, without it, it’s instant death).

i absolutely adore the idea of having Disenchanter casting Null Field
Avenger dropping Well of Action
Mage having a Wall of Fire/Ring of Fire with purple effects or something
just make them “minor” versions of the actual spells as you’ve said, obviously

i would love if that’s the direction “bounce” phantasms go
having them cast actual spells rather than just throwing stuff at people that never connect
at least it’d still be telegraphed unlike just “targets around this phantasm gain these debuffs/buffs at these intervals”
just…. have them cast it at the target, since… the random spawn location on phantasms obviously wouldn’t go too well if it were on top of the summon….

Alpha.1308:

i absolutely adore the idea of having Disenchanter casting Null Field
Avenger dropping Well of Action
Mage having a Wall of Fire/Ring of Fire with purple effects or something
just make them “minor” versions of the actual spells as you’ve said, obviously

iMage could run up to a target and do the flame blast from The Prestige. The others could essentially just tick a single pulse of Null Field/Well of Action at their target’s feet without actually placing the field on the ground.

tobascodagama.2961:

Alpha.1308:

i absolutely adore the idea of having Disenchanter casting Null Field
Avenger dropping Well of Action
Mage having a Wall of Fire/Ring of Fire with purple effects or something
just make them “minor” versions of the actual spells as you’ve said, obviously

iMage could run up to a target and do the flame blast from The Prestige. The others could essentially just tick a single pulse of Null Field/Well of Action at their target’s feet without actually placing the field on the ground.

i wouldn’t want my mage in melee range…. but, yes, that’s what i meant by “minor” version, so, i agree, just one pulse at the targets location every so many seconds sounds way more functional, even if it has a delay and doesn’t immediately tick like, say, Lava Font, for as much grief as it gets for not hitting initially, it’s still way better than the horrible projectile hit rate of bouncing shots

I’m in!

iWarlock – Make it hit. Make the projectile explode on impact. We already got iDuelist as ranged single target Phantasm. iWarlock needs to do something else.
iMage – purple Guardian Torch 5, pleeeeeease!
iDefender – Area taunt to make it actually worth casting. More HP.
iDisenchanter – Don’t make Nullfield redundant. He could just cast something Mantra-style (area effect without field).
iAvenger – purple Guardian Shield 4 for more counterplay (in comparison to a Shout).

Xaylin.1860:

iDefender – Area taunt to make it actually worth casting. More HP.

Currently it dies very fast. Do you want to attract enemies to hit even more? It has a very strong effect (half damage, that’s good) but does not live long enough to proc it properly.

Instead of a taunt, make it tanky like da bear in bearbow.

I don’t have an issue with these phantasms. They excel in small scale fights. The only issue is their survivability which needs to be looked at via traits.

Protected Phantasms should be changed to not be a low budget version of the Chronomancer’s version. I think it would be better giving phantasms aegi periodically or something else to buff their defense.

I don’t see what the problem with bouncing attacks is?

Carighan.6758:

I don’t see what the problem with bouncing attacks is?

That it is vastly inferior to AOE in number of targets and randomness. So it makes those phantasms fine in 1v1 but worse as the number increases.

I can agree with what is being said, the development of phantasms is headed in the right direction, I just want to see those long awaited tweeks, but all in good time raises hands in prayer to Robert Gee, Omnipotent God of Kitten I do think that these changes will come about and I truly always forget about, the forever alone in skillbar, iMage :’(.

Silverkey.2078:

Carighan.6758:

I don’t see what the problem with bouncing attacks is?

That it is vastly inferior to AOE in number of targets and randomness. So it makes those phantasms fine in 1v1 but worse as the number increases.

This may be true, but what we have to ask ourselves from a broader perspective is this: does our AOE capabilities need to be buffed? No, because this is what our main mechanic (shatters) excels in already. Include glamours and now wells and we are in a good spot in terms of AOE capabilities.

The randomness of our bounces is something I have always enjoyed from a character design aspect as it taps into the Mesmer’s “chaotic theme”. Yes, the bounces don’t do well in 4v4s or more, but it does very well in match ups with lower numbers, and I don’t think it’s a big enough drawback that we need to look for buffs.

I agree about the bouncing attacks, it can be very unreliable and limits it’s use.

iCaptain: Uses Tides of time but with slow instead of stun. Would be reliable too.

iDefender: Instead of it taking 50% of your damage why doesn’t it simply reduce all damage done to allies in range by 50%. The counterplay is that it’s there to kill and doesn’t exactly put up a fight.

iDisenchanter: Not sure about this the bounce allows it to actually cleanse allies and remove boons as it’s summoned on an enemy. I guess a 600 range pulse that removes 2 boons on enemies and 2 conditions on allies with 1s build up animation would be good, affects 5 allies and 5 enemies.

iMage: Creates the ele spell ring of fire, lasts 3s, casts every 6s. Could cast flame burst instead on a 6s CD.

iWarlock: I actually really like this one. Perhaps change the damage so that it has no scaling with power but instead scales by conditions on enemies. So condi builds get a strong direct damage attack by having multiple conditions on an enemy without power builds getting more from it though they will still get some use.

iDuelist: No change needed, just fix Duelist’s Discipline please

iSwordsman: No change needed

iBerserker: No change needed

Persisting images should be 50%, affect both clones and phantasms and Signet of illusions should be something else for passive. A general buff to utility phantasms health would be nice or buff their toughness.

MailMail.6534:

This may be true, but what we have to ask ourselves from a broader perspective is this: does our AOE capabilities need to be buffed? No, because this is what our main mechanic (shatters) excels in already. Include glamours and now wells and we are in a good spot in terms of AOE capabilities.

The randomness of our bounces is something I have always enjoyed from a character design aspect as it taps into the Mesmer’s “chaotic theme”. Yes, the bounces don’t do well in 4v4s or more, but it does very well in match ups with lower numbers, and I don’t think it’s a big enough drawback that we need to look for buffs.

Your argument is very valid. But if you look at the list of phantasms with bounces, you will notice they correspond 1 in 1 to the list of phantasms people don’t like and which are at best used kittenter fodder. There is a correlation between those 2 facts

edit: the kittening of this message was odd…. “best used as a shatter fodder”

I agree with everything you said, OP.

I gotta admit, I agree iAvenger needs to use bouncing projectile, that’s how Captain America hurt his enemies with his shield

…I’ll show my way out.

Silverkey.2078:

That it is vastly inferior to AOE in number of targets and randomness. So it makes those phantasms fine in 1v1 but worse as the number increases.

The ability type frankly just isn’t comparable.
A bouncing attack can – usually – hit the same target more than once. Also it has a potentially far greater reach. An AE attack hits once in a defined area.

In the case of GW2, it adds that AE attacks are limited to 5 targets, while bouncing attacks are limited to X targets, X being dependent on the attack.

“Inferior”? That’s a pretty crude statement to throw out. Pre-nerf Mirror Blade as an AE would have been (in fact, it’d still be) pretty rubbish, even with hitting 5 allies around the one enemy target. Phantasmal Mage just giving burnin/retal in an area to 3-5 targets each could be superior, but with PMage the whole thing is so weak that I find it difficult to argue whether A or B would be marginally less bad.

But in general? Just not comparable. Say you got two targets and a few allies, set up like this: T1… A… A… A… T2. Casting an AE at either T1 or T2 would hit that target and one ally. Cast a bouncing attack with 5 targets total and you hit them all.

Leave my Warlock alone :O If PU ever gets the nerf it deserves, i will be running around with GS/Staff only and i’d like my staff to still do decent damage.

Iavra.8510:

Leave my Warlock alone :O If PU ever gets the nerf it deserves, i will be running around with GS/Staff only and i’d like my staff to still do decent damage.

Or you could use something other than staff….like maybe a sword and torch. If it’s not viable…well why are you asking for PU to be nerfed essentially forcing you into only 1 build?

PU on enemy mesmer basically makes PU mandatory for myself as a WvW roamer. Having PU reduced to +1s (or +33% so it’s still better for Massinvis) while maybe increase the duration of the boons it provides would increase the viability of other traits. I can still use Sword/Torch without PU, but Staff CI feels way more fun and active for me.

agreed on bounces
i like them for clones though, staff clone is "ok’ish, with only 2 bounces..but the trident clone, on a full condition set is a whole different levels.

for phantasms, it just doesn’t work. if they are affraid that damage will be too high they could follow the iduel or izerk way and divide the attack, in multipple attacks so that a few hits can be mitigated. or they could follow the ilock way and make it quite a long cooldown inbetween attacks, but one that packs a punch a bit risky for the mesmer, hit it or kitten it. but that is balanced good peop;e should know that the ilock hits hard, so either cleave it(easy) or dodge the very obvious projectile he shoots.

i find burn a lesser condition to lets say cripple, and izerker inflicts zerker. so i see really no point why image is such utter cr*ap and we all know it is. not only does it have one of THE longest cooldowns but it’s also one i rarely use, only if i need shatter food. the damage is low, the burn does not do it, and the fury if i even get it..will not make any difference as i allready get 5 sec fury every 5 seconds.

how i would fix this: why not let the image breath out flames, (pink ones prefered, there is a pink torch skin anyway with tormented torch) kinda like ele/guard but less hits, (4? ) more range (900-1200) and 1.5 secs of burn every hit. far from overpowered, but now atleast useful in both power, and condi builds

@MailMail: Do I think our AoE capabilities need to be buffed? Yeah. What offensive AoEs do we have?

• Greatsword: Mindspike & zerker
• Staff: Chaos Storm
• Shatters, F1/F2

… Anddd that’s about it. Yeah we have null field and feedback, even Mantra of Pain/Distraction. But that’s just the problem: these things are less practical and more situational. You only sometimes take feedback or nullfield. Shatters are dependent on clone production. Mantra of pain rarely ever gets taken. MoDistraction has kitten radius.

Bouncing attacks on phantasms do have a certain novelty, but there is a reason iDisenchanter is one of our worst forms of condition removal outside of a 1v1 and rarely ever gets taken. Theres a reason torch is considered to have 1.5 skills… and did you ever actually notice the alacrity iAvenger gave you? These phantasms not only have no team benefit but they don’t work more often then they do.

Carighan.6758:

Silverkey.2078:

That it is vastly inferior to AOE in number of targets and randomness. So it makes those phantasms fine in 1v1 but worse as the number increases.

The ability type frankly just isn’t comparable.
A bouncing attack can – usually – hit the same target more than once. Also it has a potentially far greater reach. An AE attack hits once in a defined area.

In the case of GW2, it adds that AE attacks are limited to 5 targets, while bouncing attacks are limited to X targets, X being dependent on the attack.

“Inferior”? That’s a pretty crude statement to throw out. Pre-nerf Mirror Blade as an AE would have been (in fact, it’d still be) pretty rubbish, even with hitting 5 allies around the one enemy target. Phantasmal Mage just giving burnin/retal in an area to 3-5 targets each could be superior, but with PMage the whole thing is so weak that I find it difficult to argue whether A or B would be marginally less bad.

But in general? Just not comparable. Say you got two targets and a few allies, set up like this: T1… A… A… A… T2. Casting an AE at either T1 or T2 would hit that target and one ally. Cast a bouncing attack with 5 targets total and you hit them all.

Cast that bouncing attack and if you’re not in range it wont bounce back to you. Worst, cast it and god forbid there was a guardian somewhere in there and it just got blocked/aegis’d. How about when it DOES hit but bounces off the opponent, their pet, some clones, an earth elemental, and somehow gets reflected by some random reflection?

The problem with bounces isn’t just in if it can connect, but the fact that these projectiles are so easily destroyed/evaded that you can’t really predict when you’ll get the reward. How many times do you use iDisenchanter only for it’s projectile to get dodged… and thus you never actually get any conditions removed before you have to shatter it or it gets killed.

Phantasms tend to only get 1-2 attacks off before they die, even worse for the torch/shield phantasms since they have insanely long attack rates. I’d rather something guaranteed to work then having to rely on my opponent to get the benefit.

Bounce skills are okayish coming from the Mesmer because we can position to make them effective. (E.g., melee Mirror Blade.)

Bounce skills don’t matter on clones because we mostly use them for shatter fuel anyway.

Bounce skills on Phantasms are bad because Phantasms don’t know how to position to make them effective.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Cast that bouncing attack and if you’re not in range it wont bounce back to you.

This isn’t really a valid point as you wouldn’t get any secondary beneficial effect from an AE, either. You were not in range.

Anyhow, as far as an easily avoided projectile goes, yes, I guess an AE would have a slightly superior… actually no it wouldn’t. Now we’re mixing up buff-requests.
You’re now stating that the projectile nature is bad. I agree, or rather, I think more things need to be projectiles and those need to be rebalanced as a whole.

But ignore the projectile vs non-projectile debate for a moment. Compare a single bouncing projectile skill to one which casts a projectile at a target, then on impact projectiles fly out from that target to other nearby friendly and enemy targets to produce the AE effect. I don’t see a conceptual problem, they’re two different ways to do AE (chain AE vs radial AE), and nothing more.
You can do either of those with projectiles, or without.

I completely agree with Chaos that bouncing attacks are terribad and I want to point out another problem with them: they can also put you on Revealed.

@Menaka: Uh, I actually kind of like Winds of Chaos & Magic Bullet. =P

Carighan.6758:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Cast that bouncing attack and if you’re not in range it wont bounce back to you.

This isn’t really a valid point as you wouldn’t get any secondary beneficial effect from an AE, either. You were not in range.

Anyhow, as far as an easily avoided projectile goes, yes, I guess an AE would have a slightly superior… actually no it wouldn’t. Now we’re mixing up buff-requests.
You’re now stating that the projectile nature is bad. I agree, or rather, I think more things need to be projectiles and those need to be rebalanced as a whole.

But ignore the projectile vs non-projectile debate for a moment. Compare a single bouncing projectile skill to one which casts a projectile at a target, then on impact projectiles fly out from that target to other nearby friendly and enemy targets to produce the AE effect. I don’t see a conceptual problem, they’re two different ways to do AE (chain AE vs radial AE), and nothing more.
You can do either of those with projectiles, or without.

Yeah, my beef is specifically with abilities that have dual effects on-bounce. If I cast iDisenchanter, its usually because I want condition removal… Not conditional condition removal. An AoE is predictable, I cast it and know when I’m getting the effect. A bounce not so much. Worse, I have no control over which of my allies I can assist with it.

Many have suggested real aoe from the phantasms instead of bounced, but I personally would prefer radial attacks directly from the phantasm.

iDisenchanter is summoned, takes stock of available targets (enemy and friendly), and then casts a separate projectile directly at each. Allies get conditions removed, enemies get boons stripped.
If the current potential targets via bouncing is too high for such an approach, just tune down the max targets. Right now it gets 4 bounces, which means 5 potential targets, with a 3 enemy max. I’d be okay if they turned it down to 4 max targets with a 3 enemy max, but given how bad it is now I’m not sure that’s necessary.

Silverkey.2078:

Xaylin.1860:

iDefender – Area taunt to make it actually worth casting. More HP.

Currently it dies very fast. Do you want to attract enemies to hit even more? It has a very strong effect (half damage, that’s good) but does not live long enough to proc it properly.

I highly doubt that the iDefender will ever gain enough HP to actually make its current effect actually … well … effective. I’m not even going to start on the stacking issue with its current effect.

If it had a taunt attached to its attack it would at least have some recognizable impact in a fight. That doesn’t mean we would have to completely remove the current effect, though.

I guess I’m a really bad mesmer for not knowing how my phantasms actually work. I thought that tool tips said “this phantasm grants [effect] to your allies” meant that it would give that out in an aoe of 5 targets. That’s how to should be anyway… Seems really broken and useless if it relies on a bounce that most likely never hits anyone…

What you expect is indeed the case for iDefender, which has a special buff. But it’s not true for the three that Chaos named in his post.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

@Menaka: Uh, I actually kind of like Winds of Chaos & Magic Bullet. =P

alright! *Phantasm bouncing attacks :P

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Yeah, my beef is specifically with abilities that have dual effects on-bounce. If I cast iDisenchanter, its usually because I want condition removal… Not conditional condition removal. An AoE is predictable, I cast it and know when I’m getting the effect. A bounce not so much. Worse, I have no control over which of my allies I can assist with it.

I recently tried iDisenchanter in PvP and quickly switched back to the mantra. The phantasm will either be cleaved to death in a millisecond or miss his attack and the condi removal…

Xaylin.1860:

Silverkey.2078:

Xaylin.1860:

iDefender – Area taunt to make it actually worth casting. More HP.

Currently it dies very fast. Do you want to attract enemies to hit even more? It has a very strong effect (half damage, that’s good) but does not live long enough to proc it properly.

I highly doubt that the iDefender will ever gain enough HP to actually make its current effect actually … well … effective. I’m not even going to start on the stacking issue with its current effect.

If it had a taunt attached to its attack it would at least have some recognizable impact in a fight. That doesn’t mean we would have to completely remove the current effect, though.

That’s why I think it shouldn’t absorb attacks and simply reduce all damage done to you and allies with the buff by 50%.

I mean it’s not like iDefender hard to kill either…so there’s your counter play.

just make them aoe in general and be happy with it – 180ø it shall be

Chaos Archangel.5071:

… Anddd that’s about it. Yeah we have null field and feedback, even Mantra of Pain/Distraction. But that’s just the problem: these things are less practical and more situational. You only sometimes take feedback or nullfield. Shatters are dependent on clone production. Mantra of pain rarely ever gets taken. MoDistraction has kitten radius.

What you describe is a moot point considering ALL of our utilities are highly “situational” outside of Blink/Decoy. In most cases, you’re bound to be using at least one of those AOEs in which case you will get a lot of bang for your buck. I think MoD’s radius is more than efficient. Shatters being depending on clone production doesn’t make the AOE they give any less potent. This is all from a pvp perspective.

Bouncing attacks on phantasms do have a certain novelty, but there is a reason iDisenchanter is one of our worst forms of condition removal outside of a 1v1 and rarely ever gets taken. Theres a reason torch is considered to have 1.5 skills… and did you ever actually notice the alacrity iAvenger gave you? These phantasms not only have no team benefit but they don’t work more often then they do.

I think the issue is again regulated back to the fact that phantasms die so easily. These more “utility-based” phantasms are designed for bunker/support builds with high health/toughness. Novelty might indeed be the word to use here, but the issue isn’t the bouncing attacks imho. The issue is that these phantasms are meant for a certain playstyle that most Mesmers aren’t used to. pDisenchanter being looked at as singularly a condition-clearing machine is part of the problem. Again, it’s designed to fit well into a bunker/support build that clears conditions from teammates while stripping boons from enemies. This implies you don’t want to shatter often.

Clone Death builds were the perfect match for phantasms utilizing bouncing effects btw. I guess now that it’s tougher to have bunker phantasm builds, these specific phantasms might need a buff? I’m all for buffing some of the weaker bounces, but I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with the bounce effect in and of itself.

Just Cho’s opinion.

Flash news: those phantasms are awful in bunker builds!

MailMail.6534:

Clone Death builds were the perfect match for phantasms utilizing bouncing effects btw.

Is this a joke?

tobascodagama.2961:

MailMail.6534:

Clone Death builds were the perfect match for phantasms utilizing bouncing effects btw.

Is this a joke?

No. I actually used pDisenchanter in my clone death build from time to time… The point of such a build was letting clones auto attack and die without shattering them. If such a build still existed, pAvenger would be a great addition I imagine. pMage has always needed buffs. It wasn’t the bouncing effect that made it bad. It was his velocity of attack, how easy it missed and the subpar effect it gave.

MailMail.6534:

tobascodagama.2961:

Is this a joke?

No. I actually used pDisenchanter in my clone death build from time to time… The point of such a build was letting clones auto attack and die without shattering them. If such a build still existed, pAvenger would be a great addition I imagine. pMage has always needed buffs. It wasn’t the bouncing effect that made it bad. It was his velocity of attack, how easy it missed and the subpar effect it gave.

But why was the bouncing beneficial then?

If it weren’t for my horse, I wouldn’t have spent that year in college…

When I said this, you threw a hissy fit.

Levetty.1279:

When I said this, you threw a hissy fit.

For the love of god, man, say something productive would you!

Silverkey.2078:

But why was the bouncing beneficial then?

If you’re not familiar with the Clone Death style of game play, take a look at some of my top posts. The bouncing was beneficial, because in small scale fights (when I say this, I’m talking less than 4 opponents), the extra bounces would ensure that enemies remained debuffed in one shape or form. pDisenchanter specifically did extremely well. pMage was also fantastic when his attack actually hit as 3 stacks of confusion bouncing onto enemies actually provided a lot of pressure.

Before the lynch mob smells my blood too soon let me clarify my position: I’m not suggesting that I think these phantasms don’t need buffing. I’m simply saying that I don’t think the actual mechanic of bouncing effects is the main problem…

The bounce mechanic would be fine if they increased the number of bounces… I’m really not sure what they’re afraid would happen. The bounces cant hit the same target more than once, so its already limited to the number of available players/npc in a given area and they all hit like wet toilet paper. They could easily increase the number of bounces to 9 so they scale better for larger engagements (aka PvP 5v5) and bounces would still get wasted regularly on clones/pets, or get stopped from someone blocking/dodging.

Edit- What I’d really like to see is the bounce limit removed entirely. Have the projectile last a specific amt of time instead (say 3~ seconds). So, if you’re tightly pacted together it could hit like 10~ targets, but if you’re spaced out it would only make it to like 4~.

Mes Pistol 5, Thief Shortbow, Ricochet on Thief Pistol, none of these had any problem with their bounce. Key difference? Velocity.

Easy fix

• Make all phant bounce projectiles at least the velocity of thief sbow.
• Increase the range of all phant bounce projectiles to 1200 (range before first hit)
• Keep the range of attack of the phantasms the same. So iMage attacks at his usual 900 range (or whatever), but his projectile will keep tracking so a walking dollyak can’t escape him.

Done. Dusted. Fire the programing team, I got this.

• Oh, and review bounce logic to better prioritize targets.

Bonus option

• Ranged projectile phantasms fire “Magic Missile” that divides between X targets on opening attack. No bounce necessary. DONE. 5 targets total, yourself, 1 allie, 3 enemies, 5 projectiles on attack that track to each.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Levetty.1279:

When I said this, you threw a hissy fit.

For the love of god, man, say something productive would you!

Like the entire post about alacrity and bouncing that people are now agreeing with but you threw a kitten fit at? Whats the point?

Levetty.1279:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Levetty.1279:

When I said this, you threw a hissy fit.

For the love of god, man, say something productive would you!

Like the entire post about alcrity and bouncing that people are now agreeing with but you threw a kitten fit at? Whats the point?

You’re not making any sense man! Make some sense!