Guild Wars 2

trooper.2650:

Hi Ross,

Mushin here again to bug you a little more :P

I tried small variations. One of which was already suggested in previous posts: going 4 points in Illusions.

I know you think it would undermine the “concept” behind the original build. However, I did some tests. Basically, the overall damage output between you and your iduelist in a 6/6/x/x/x with Assasin amulet is very, very close to the damage you would deal with a 6/4/0/0/4. Difference is that in your build, yourself would end up doing +/-41% damage more than your phantasm, while with Phant Haste, phant would do more and yourself less. Nothing new here, but the total is very similar. It looks like this:

- Asskicker build:

• Mesmer 1425
• iduelist 1012
  • Tot: 2437

- Variation with p. Haste:

• Mesmer 1272
• iduelist 1133
  • Tot: 2405

But I am thinking… how much time do you spend actively fighting and/or hiding, running away while the heal comes up, etc.? So, it’s not like you are always putting pressure, because it’s your phant. that in turn put pressure for you. Or I should say.. it’s a mix of the two, agree?

So, why not spreading the pressure more evenly? The calculation doesn’t take in to account compounding power, which for a power base build would be the ideal choice for going in illusions. Illusions give you also a shorter decoy/phantasms summoning.

Have you tried going this route?

A quick word on compounding power, it’s a nice little boost to damage and I’ve run it in place of 2 in Chaos. So it’s an option in the original build.

So the first thing that came to mind is what trait are you thinking to give up? Phantasmal Fury, Blade Training, or Duelist’s Discipline. There’s merit in your case for the trait changes in terms of damage, but there’s a wide gap between stacking mOar damage and viability. So my first concern isnt “Is this a stronger change” i.e. capitalizes on that high dps the build enjoys. Rather its how is this change going to effect the overall viability of the build.

Do I drop Phantasmal Fury?
The builds intense damage relies on the high crit chance. It effectively means that every strike from the iSwordsman is going to be a nasty crit. The iDuelist adds the benefit of bleed stacks on top of his damage, even if the condi damage behind them is low. It still has its effect and downs people. If anything Phant Fury would be my #1 trait to drop, but its presence in the build is noticeable and I don’t favor the build without it.

Do I drop Blade Training?
The low CD on sword/sword is as much offensive pressure as it is defensive. Having those CD’s coming off constantly is very important in a full glass build. Anything with a illusion summon is replaced by the investment in Illusions, but that can’t replace the power and utility of Blurred Frenzy. On the flip side, BF is the only thing you lose CD on if you were to drop Blade Training in place of 4 in Illusions. However, the synergy in CD’s (and rotations) becomes lost with the inbalanced CD’s, which can really have an impact on play. Never the less, this would be a close second for dropping.

Do I drop Duelist’s Discipline?
This build really comes together when you add the presence of the iDueslist to the field. But this only proves so potent, not only because of the range in which the iDuelist fires, but because of the range in which you can cast it and fire your Magic Bullet. Taking actions at 1200 range is a HUGE advantage over any class, and this is even before we get into the downsides of talking about an iDuelist who has to chase his moving target around. Once you maneuver yourself into 900 range you’re effectively in melee leap shot or steal range. Even if you’re to kite at that range, able to move in and out, one unit of range increase by your opponent (think a thief teleport, or phase retreat, or just a reverse dodge roll by anyone) can cause a bullet to miss or iDuelist to fail summon due to range. It’s a horrible, horrible thing to face when you’re trying to dish out your ranged pressure. Dropping this trait is a bad idea hands down without also dropping the weapon.

So yeah, Damage vs Viability. What am I giving up when I make this change. This is what I’m thinking about when I look at these particular trait changes. The differences might be so minute its negligible. At which point, perhaps its just a matter of getting used to the variations, and players running user preference. Essentially there is no change. On the other hand, the devil is in the details

I knew your answer but I did not want to post a wall of text and prefered to wait your reply to favour a constructive discussion.

If you put longer blink in the list (which I love) you can see how it is even harder for me to make a up my mind.
Anyway, duelist’s discipline is a must. I love pistol and I love having it ready every time I swap.

At the time when I wrote the post I was using sc/pt+staff, to try more variations. In that case sword training wasn’t necessary, so it was easier to decide what to drop.
The thing is that the build is squishy no matter how you look at it, and staff helps just a little that the trade of burst/viability it’s probably not worth.

Tonight I will try using torch, for the extra stealth (also using torch trait for condi cleans), to see how it plays. If it does not work and I find myself going back to double sword I will be dropping phant. fury in favour of blade training. Lets face it, assassin amulet gives plenty of crit and you can safely afford to drop phant. fury.

3 questions. I know you being a big fan of focus (I remember your videos in wvw when you were using sc/focus). Why not implementing it?

Have you tried sword/pistol and sc/sword? I, myself, prefer them in that order rather than sc/ps+sw/sw: a nice stun + immob there, plus double block on the other side. Guess it’s down to personal taste. Just saying it.

This one is big and I know your reaction already.
Have you tried runes of the Warrior? It pairs very well when you have at least 1 CD weapon reduction in both sets. Combine that with Illusionists Celerity and you can pop phantasms faster than ever on both weapons sets (which sinergize well phant. haste for a better uptime pressure).
Also, the HP that comes with it are a nice boost to survivability. Of course it is a trade for losing all those goodies runes of the air brings. But the build is very bursty even without runes of the air. Again, just saying it

trooper.2650:

I knew your answer but I did not want to post a wall of text and prefered to wait your reply to favour a constructive discussion.

If you put longer blink in the list (which I love) you can see how it is even harder for me to make a up my mind.
Anyway, duelist’s discipline is a must. I love pistol and I love having it ready every time I swap.

At the time when I wrote the post I was using sc/pt+staff, to try more variations. In that case sword training wasn’t necessary, so it was easier to decide what to drop.
The thing is that the build is squishy no matter how you look at it, and staff helps just a little that the trade of burst/viability it’s probably not worth.

Tonight I will try using torch, for the extra stealth (also using torch trait for condi cleans), to see how it plays. If it does not work and I find myself going back to double sword I will be dropping phant. fury in favour of blade training. Lets face it, assassin amulet gives plenty of crit and you can safely afford to drop phant. fury.

3 questions. I know you being a big fan of focus (I remember your videos in wvw when you were using sc/focus). Why not implementing it?

Have you tried sword/pistol and sc/sword? I, myself, prefer them in that order rather than sc/ps+sw/sw: a nice stun + immob there, plus double block on the other side. Guess it’s down to personal taste. Just saying it.

This one is big and I know your reaction already.
Have you tried runes of the Warrior? It pairs very well when you have at least 1 CD weapon reduction in both sets. Combine that with Illusionists Celerity and you can pop phantasms faster than ever on both weapons sets (which sinergize well phant. haste for a better uptime pressure).
Also, the HP that comes with it are a nice boost to survivability. Of course it is a trade for losing all those goodies runes of the air brings. But the build is very bursty even without runes of the air. Again, just saying it

Runes of Warrior? Madness! You’re wanting them for the weapon swap. Ok I guess, though you might be swapping to quickly for some of your CD’s at times. If you are needing to swap that quickly then, well, for some reason you’re burning through all your CD’s to quickly. The vit is a wasted stat. In a full glass build its just gonna burn no matter what if you get hit. The power is ok but… yeah, its not much. If you want to move away from the burst of something like Air and go for Utility, there’s got to be some other rune that offers better utility for some reason or another. Warrior is just so… well, Warrior.

As for Focus, last night I wanted to be hardcore so I was running 6, 4, 0, 4, sword/sword sword/focus with traited focus, and dropping pistol trait (obviously). It was Phantrupts crazy cousin, Meleerupt Ballkicker, a full “melee” approach. Anyway it pailed in comparison to Phantrupt but was still very nasty when applied.
On with the story, that lead to tonight wanting to get a focus back into a wvw roaming build. I dropped sword trait and 2 from dueling and put 4 into Inspiration for traited focus. That went really well using that ranged pressure from the duelist/focus + air/fire procs, but also interrupting into iWarden via curtain, sword 3 to BF. Pack runes on assassins armor, zerk everything else. Would I run this in PvP? Ehhhhh, sword/sword is just more reliable than a focus, and I think has an overall better approach and synergy within the threads build. But it’s not weak, and brings additional utility to gameplay. Maybe its worth practicing on to to knut out weakness and get a clearer view on.

Warrior runes, you crazy.

LOL

Ofc, it is for the bonus, not for the stats! It’s not me who’s burning cd too fast…it’s the phantasms that die too quickly

I did try traited focus too. In wvw, in a 1v1, 1v2 or vs a camp is just a killer. Being able to hide behind curtain/iwarden and keep shooting with the duelist is nice. But for some reasons it failed in pvp (at least for me).

As I wrote, tonight I will try traited torch. I want to see if the extra stealth can make up for the loss of an offensive phantasm (I do not consider the image as one). I dunno, it may be just an awfull choice… what you say?

trooper.2650:

LOL

Ofc, it is for the bonus, not for the stats! It’s not me who’s burning cd too fast…it’s the phantasms that die too quickly

I did try traited focus too. In wvw, in a 1v1, 1v2 or vs a camp is just a killer. Being able to hide behind curtain/iwarden and keep shooting with the duelist is nice. But for some reasons it failed in pvp (at least for me).

As I wrote, tonight I will try traited torch. I want to see if the extra stealth can make up for the loss of an offensive phantasm (I do not consider the image as one). I dunno, it may be just an awfull choice… what you say?

There’s nothing inherently wrong with using torch. There’s plenty of builds that do. So my advice if you’re going to is to work on a redesign. Build from the ground up. Dropping OH sword? Drop CI too. Work with standard dazes and pistol stuns. Summon iMage and spawn clones for shattering before engaging with iDuelist. Drop sword trait for DE. These are all possibilities.

Ross Biddle.2367:

trooper.2650:

LOL

Ofc, it is for the bonus, not for the stats! It’s not me who’s burning cd too fast…it’s the phantasms that die too quickly

I did try traited focus too. In wvw, in a 1v1, 1v2 or vs a camp is just a killer. Being able to hide behind curtain/iwarden and keep shooting with the duelist is nice. But for some reasons it failed in pvp (at least for me).

As I wrote, tonight I will try traited torch. I want to see if the extra stealth can make up for the loss of an offensive phantasm (I do not consider the image as one). I dunno, it may be just an awfull choice… what you say?

There’s nothing inherently wrong with using torch. There’s plenty of builds that do. So my advice if you’re going to is to work on a redesign. Build from the ground up. Dropping OH sword? Drop CI too. Work with standard dazes and pistol stuns. Summon iMage and spawn clones for shattering before engaging with iDuelist. Drop sword trait for DE. These are all possibilities.

Tried it and discarded the idea immediately.
But I want to keep you updated on my recent changes, if you allow me. I think that traits spread and amulet/runes/sigils keep some sort of flow from your build. That is why I am not opening a new thread. But let me know if you do not want me to pollute your asskicker 3D with my tests.

As I see it, your aim is to have h a r d kicking phantasms with some sort of control (CS+bullet) and burst ppl down as fast as possible.
As I suggested in a previous post, I tried GS+sw/pt (dropped CS for GS trait). The damage and pressure you can put is just unbelievable. I strongly advise you to try it.

Eventually I dropped pistol and picked up focus. This set up is the one I feel more confortable with (coming from a long CI experience 4/4/6 GS/sw+f). A tiny less pressure but more control by curtain, iwave and iwarden. It still put tremendous pressure, especially with compounding power.

The other two changes are veil instead of MoD and runes of rage instead of air (that lightining proc!). Rage gives even more damage thanks to more fury and you won’t get revealed by that proc. which, using veil and decoy, can sometimes ruin your plans.

The build looks like this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAR8dlknpRtlpxYNcrNipxgqyIdAJcQpLplxB-TZBFABC8AAsZ/BHOCAUXGAgLCAA

A variation with traited focus:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAR8dlknpRtlpxYNcrNiphcyqLJdgEHKZpWA-TZBFABC8AAsZ/BHOCAUXGAgLCAA

PS: having dropped pistol you can either go for DE or traited blink.
PPS: I dropped CS and picked GS trait but it’s not mandatory, however, since your build has all wepaons traited, it maintains the same feel of having fast access to phantasms when swapping sets.

Thoughts?

Scepter = fail.

kodesh.2851:

Scepter = fail.

Ignorance = bliss?

Rofl. Thanks for the input. ;D

kodesh.2851:

Scepter = fail.

Oh, dude… Scepter works. Especially going double offhands, even in a power build, and definitely with the pistol.

trooper.2650:

Ross Biddle.2367:

trooper.2650:

LOL

Ofc, it is for the bonus, not for the stats! It’s not me who’s burning cd too fast…it’s the phantasms that die too quickly

I did try traited focus too. In wvw, in a 1v1, 1v2 or vs a camp is just a killer. Being able to hide behind curtain/iwarden and keep shooting with the duelist is nice. But for some reasons it failed in pvp (at least for me).

As I wrote, tonight I will try traited torch. I want to see if the extra stealth can make up for the loss of an offensive phantasm (I do not consider the image as one). I dunno, it may be just an awfull choice… what you say?

There’s nothing inherently wrong with using torch. There’s plenty of builds that do. So my advice if you’re going to is to work on a redesign. Build from the ground up. Dropping OH sword? Drop CI too. Work with standard dazes and pistol stuns. Summon iMage and spawn clones for shattering before engaging with iDuelist. Drop sword trait for DE. These are all possibilities.

Tried it and discarded the idea immediately.
But I want to keep you updated on my recent changes, if you allow me. I think that traits spread and amulet/runes/sigils keep some sort of flow from your build. That is why I am not opening a new thread. But let me know if you do not want me to pollute your asskicker 3D with my tests.

As I see it, your aim is to have h a r d kicking phantasms with some sort of control (CS+bullet) and burst ppl down as fast as possible.
As I suggested in a previous post, I tried GS+sw/pt (dropped CS for GS trait). The damage and pressure you can put is just unbelievable. I strongly advise you to try it.

Eventually I dropped pistol and picked up focus. This set up is the one I feel more comfortable with (coming from a long CI experience 4/4/6 GS/sw+f). A tiny less pressure but more control by curtain, iwave and iwarden. It still put tremendous pressure, especially with compounding power.

The other two changes are veil instead of MoD and runes of rage instead of air (that lightining proc!). Rage gives even more damage thanks to more fury and you won’t get revealed by that proc. which, using veil and decoy, can sometimes ruin your plans.

The build looks like this:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAR8dlknpRtlpxYNcrNipxgqyIdAJcQpLplxB-TZBFABC8AAsZ/BHOCAUXGAgLCAA

A variation with traited focus:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAR8dlknpRtlpxYNcrNiphcyqLJdgEHKZpWA-TZBFABC8AAsZ/BHOCAUXGAgLCAA

PS: having dropped pistol you can either go for DE or traited blink.
PPS: I dropped CS and picked GS trait but it’s not mandatory, however, since your build has all wepaons traited, it maintains the same feel of having fast access to phantasms when swapping sets.

Thoughts?

You know, the beauty of CS with MoD on your bar is that you can really lock down and extend the duration of a target in an iWardens whirl. The imob from an iSwap stuffs up a stun break to dodge, and a stun without a break just ruins peoples day.

All that said, in terms of a hard hitting phant build, yeah you’ve put togeather a strong mix. In PvP though I’d be more inclined to go with a straight shatter build if I’m using GS. However in a roaming WvW build, or small man (swapping veil for MoD) this would be a very nasty build. I’d swap out that sigil of battle though, 2 stacks at the nerf numbers just sucks. Doom is better, or a stacking sigil. If you are solo veil is great, or even portal. At which point you may want to take reduced cd on glamors just to get more frequent access to it (you’re not dealing damage yourself during a veil use anyway). Portal could let you kite at max range on a GS and still pew pew. Both are a 90s cd, so its just different tactical options.

Quite frankly those videos upset me with how hard you have to work for your damage and survival while a thief with one skill from invisibility takes out 70% of your health and he doesn’t need to combo major cooldowns to do so.

And the dumb escapes they have. Whoever came up with initiative did not think it through.

I also am annoyed by how weak all of the mesmer’s autoattacks are compared to a thief. My thief’s autos are hitting for 2-3k on the first 2 swings and 3-4k on the last. My mesmer in full zerker is lucky to land 2k crits on the first 2 autoattacks.

Basically all your damage as a mesmer is piled into phantasms and trait triggers. Which are great for burst, but not that great in sustained damage.

Just bumping this thread with my “more tankish” variant.. Yea, tankish as zerker amulet instead of kitten

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRAsc7alknpRtlpxGNMrNiphcqqkOQiBluUrTA-TJBFwA02fYxJBoaZAAPBAA

It’s great for my YoloQue, a fun alternative for my favorite CI lockdown, a different playstyle

Bubi.5237:

Just bumping this thread with my “more tankish” variant.. Yea, tankish as zerker amulet instead of kitten

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQRAsc7alknpRtlpxGNMrNiphcqqkOQiBluUrTA-TJBFwA02fYxJBoaZAAPBAA

It’s great for my YoloQue, a fun alternative for my favorite CI lockdown, a different playstyle

Thanks Bubi, glad you’re having fun!

Ross, what do you theorycraft for HoT phantrupt?
Trying to make something with the infos we have now, but..

1. Dom: I had to drop CS every time for Emp. Illus, that 15% dmg is just too nice to miss.
2. Then there is the Dueling-problem with Pistol vs Fury. As an interrupt-build, the Pistol trait seems awesome, but to not have Fury on Phantasm is making me scared, how much will my dps output be reduced. (As DE is not neccessary for this build, the mantra GM is okay.)
3. And ofc the 3rd line question:

• Chaos for CI would be awesome, but all the other traits are kinda meh. (I’m not using Manipulation trait much right now, so it’s not important for me.)
• Insp. seems like a bunkerish version, we have Mender’s Purity, perma-regen with increased Healing Power, but the other Major traits are kinda meh. (You will not shatter a lot, you don’t have glamours, you’ll have just a few boons, so why copy them.. Maybe with (unchanged) Pack runes to give some Fury to Phantasms.)
• Chrono is not that bad, if you can adopt a more-shattering style with Chronophantasma, and the slow-on-interrupt can be really nice if not nerfed to the ground.

So far it is Dom/Duel/Chron for me with Pistol trait (sw/sw+sc/p), I feel like the damage-output got nerfed without shattering (and now I’m not really shattering my phantasms), and without Chrono you “can’t” really shatter your phantasms.

Well lets look at it the two stages of release we’re going to get. First we get the trait tree changed pre HoT, and then the introduction of the Chrono tree post Hot.

So for pre HoT it’s pretty obvious. Do Du Cha
http://dulfy.net/2015/05/02/gw2-specialization-calculator-that_shaman/#profession=mesmer&traits=%22Domination%22,1,6,9-%22Dueling%22,3,5,9-%22Chaos%22,3,5,7

What you need to keep in mind is that, while the 15% phant damage in the dom line is tempting we’re actually getting +15% phant damage as a baseline which is coming out of the Inspiration line. So without traiting +15% we’re not loosing anything as things currently stand. We could further build on our phant damage, but we don’t have to. This means we can still take CS, and quite frankly I wouldn’t want to pass it up (100% stun 5s cd, longer daze otherwise = good).

Because of the way things have changed Furious Interruptions is a solid contender, but shattered concentration is in the running too. Two reasons for this is because either you’re going to be running DE now (no point taking Harmonious Mantras anymore because Mender Purity is unacceptable), or possibly dropping Dueling alltogeather for Chrono, in which case we’re going to capitalize on our shattering of Phantasms- good times. So that boon strip is suddenly looking like the better option (cause when did we need furious interruptions anyway. It’s like icing on a cake. Tasty, but in the end just extra sugar).

Next is Phant Fury vs Duelists Discipline. Tough choice and perhaps this is where Assassins amulet + a bloodlust stacking sigil really come into play. That bonus precision means your phants crit chance doesn’t completely suck without phant fury. But it might just come down to what’s practical and what the individual player can stomach. That duelist discipline just looks so good, assuming you can keep your rupts rolling to bring down those pistol recharge times. A solid volley of duelists could more than make up for a reduction in phant crits. I don’t know, I’ll have to wait and see.

Finally Chaos. It’s there for CI for a truly well rounded rupt/lockdown experience. Outside of that it’s going to bring a bit more sustain vs projectiles, or perhaps another rupt via Mirror of Anguish. You could go without CI and Chaos all together, but these three lines make for the most punishing interrupt experience pre HoT.

Post Crono, I’d be dropping Dueling for Crono. That’ll maintain the strongest rupt/lockdown setup while introducing the mentioned benefits above of shattering while maintaining the core strength of the build surrounding rupts and phantasms.
http://dulfy.net/2015/05/02/gw2-specialization-calculator-that_shaman/#profession=mesmer&traits=%22Domination%22,1,6,9-%22Chronomancer%22,2,5,8-%22Chaos%22,3,5,7

Also If you’re not feeling comfortable with the CD’s due to the loss of the sword trait, a change to GS sw/pi might be appropriate. It’s more direct power with an adjustment/loss to that heavy rounded defensive strategim via the frequent blocks/daze’s.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Post Crono, I’d be dropping Dueling for Crono.

You think CI is worth all the good stuff you lose from dueling? It’s a great trait, but it seems to me like Dueling would be the most important traitline for the Phantrupt build. There’s not a single bad trait for your weapon sets and the minors are amazing.

But then again I’ve never played your build, so what do I know.

Noss.4105:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Post Crono, I’d be dropping Dueling for Crono.

You think CI is worth all the good stuff you lose from dueling? It’s a great trait, but it seems to me like Dueling would be the most important traitline for the Phantrupt build. There’s not a single bad trait for your weapon sets and the minors are amazing.

But then again I’ve never played your build, so what do I know.

Well, to be honest I’m not married to CI. So yes, it’s quite possible Chaos will go instead of dueling. CI which contains BI is really the only reason to take this line, even though there’s some other tasty treats in there. To me it’s really a question of how devastating do I want a single interrupt to be? Do I need it to be that devastating? I don’t know yet.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Noss.4105:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Post Crono, I’d be dropping Dueling for Crono.

You think CI is worth all the good stuff you lose from dueling? It’s a great trait, but it seems to me like Dueling would be the most important traitline for the Phantrupt build. There’s not a single bad trait for your weapon sets and the minors are amazing.

But then again I’ve never played your build, so what do I know.

Well, to be honest I’m not married to CI. So yes, it’s quite possible Chaos will go instead of dueling. CI which contains BI is really the only reason to take this line, even though there’s some other tasty treats in there. To me it’s really a question of how devastating do I want a single interrupt to be? Do I need it to be that devastating? I don’t know yet.

Yeah, CI+BI is really strong. But I feel the master traits are pretty bad for power builds and the minors are pretty meh most of the times, where dueling just has awesome written all over it.

Noss.4105:

You think CI is worth all the good stuff you lose from dueling? It’s a great trait, but it seems to me like Dueling would be the most important traitline for the Phantrupt build. There’s not a single bad trait for your weapon sets and the minors are amazing.

The minors are not that great imo.
I mean you get bleed/confusion from them, and your condi dmg is close to zero. It’s not THAT bad, it’ll boost your dps a little, but CI alone can boost at least the same amount, if not more (with CI lockdown, it’s not that rare to sit on 10+ stacks of might and the immobilize is awesome for an undodgeable sword #3-2 combo-wombo).

The hard part (for me) is the major traits in Chaos line. Usually I have only Blink as Manipulation, falling dmg trait is.. well, can be fun for trolling (jump on downed to ‘rupt res/finish.. I mean at those places where it’s possible with the most fortunate timing.. yea..), and the dmg reduction trait is just passive-play.. 9% with 3 clones? meh.
For Master trait: Not using staff with Phantrupt. Not using (enough) conditions without Dueling (Dom/Duel/Chaos setup is nice, you’ll have a lot of bleeding/confusion on the enemy, so probably will use it), and MoA is a passive-CC-mirror, once every minute? Same meh.

While in Dueling, you would lose Fury or +1 iDuelist (you will interrupt with an interrupt build), defensive Mirror/Sword recharge and 3rd Mantra (in wvw roaming, maybe you can try some hybrid build with Mistrust, but with that it’s almost better to go full condi.)

As I see, the “most important traitline” is still Dom.
“Halting Strike”, CS ( for more lockdown-ish style) or Emp.Ill. (for more phantasm-ish style) are both the basis for phantrupt, while the other traitlines are just to make it more fitting for your playstyle.
Now with Chrono you can choose a bit more shatter-ish phantasm-build while with Chaos a more lockdown-ish interrupt (or lockdown-ish phantasm and shatter-ish interrupt? O.o ).
Yes, Dueling is Nice and Great, but all the traits there are “only” boosting your abilities, though the new Pistol trait is a bit more than that now, sword/mantra is “just” efficiency. It will be hard to avoid Dueling, true. But you can, while Domination is a lot harder to change out for another line.

And now I don’t know against who am I writing… meeehhhhh….

Ross Biddle.2367:

Because of the way things have changed Furious Interruptions is a solid contender, but shattered concentration is in the running too. Two reasons for this is because either you’re going to be running DE now (no point taking Harmonious Mantras anymore because Mender Purity is unacceptable)

Hmm.. without Chrono (like pre-HoT), will you use DE or HM? Just interested, I’ll prolly use HM more as I like to spam a bit too much MoD.

You could go without CI and Chaos all together, but these three lines make for the most punishing interrupt experience pre HoT.

Agreed (of coures! :P ), pre-HoT it’ll be the ultimate-lockdown-time!
No point taking other lines for any interrupt-oriented build.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Also If you’re not feeling comfortable with the CD’s due to the loss of the sword trait, a change to GS sw/pi might be appropriate. It’s more direct power with an adjustment/loss to that heavy rounded defensive strategim via the frequent blocks/daze’s.

To be honest I was thinking about a Staff with CI and phantasms, you will have condis on them so iWarlock can hit decend amount, but..
I change that image pretty fast “back” to the lockdown-builds with dom/duel/chaos staff+sw/p with iDuelists shooting everywhere..
I’ll prolly try your Duel-less build, but somehow it’s hard for me to imagine it.
(Which can be the best thing we can ask for, more viable builds are always good. )

@Bubi Meeeh, I’m just not sold on using third of your traitpoints for CI if you have Dueling as another option. The whole Chaos -line looks so underwhelming until CI/PU.

You’re right about Domi being most important. I somehow “forgot” it as I think post-HoT power lockdown builds as Domination + 2 other traitlines.

Thank you for bumping this

it helped

Bubi.5237:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Because of the way things have changed Furious Interruptions is a solid contender, but shattered concentration is in the running too. Two reasons for this is because either you’re going to be running DE now (no point taking Harmonious Mantras anymore because Mender Purity is unacceptable)

Hmm.. without Chrono (like pre-HoT), will you use DE or HM? Just interested, I’ll prolly use HM more as I like to spam a bit too much MoD.

You could go without CI and Chaos all together, but these three lines make for the most punishing interrupt experience pre HoT.

Agreed (of coures! :P ), pre-HoT it’ll be the ultimate-lockdown-time!
No point taking other lines for any interrupt-oriented build.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Also If you’re not feeling comfortable with the CD’s due to the loss of the sword trait, a change to GS sw/pi might be appropriate. It’s more direct power with an adjustment/loss to that heavy rounded defensive strategim via the frequent blocks/daze’s.

To be honest I was thinking about a Staff with CI and phantasms, you will have condis on them so iWarlock can hit decend amount, but..
I change that image pretty fast “back” to the lockdown-builds with dom/duel/chaos staff+sw/p with iDuelists shooting everywhere..
I’ll prolly try your Duel-less build, but somehow it’s hard for me to imagine it.
(Which can be the best thing we can ask for, more viable builds are always good. )

Right now I’m running HarmMantras but I’m doing so with MoD, Healing Mantra, and Menders Purity. No matter what build Phantrupt is it no longer has access to Menders, so there’s no reason to take Healing Mantra. With that gone, taking HarmMantras the investment for 1 extra MoD just doesnt seem worth it vs DE. Like, I will have 1 less daze from my mantra, but I could open up more strategies with 3 clone diversions before launching into full phant summon mode. That’s a dramatic increase in daze/invuln/shatter utility and damage, which could be even more nasty if you take boon removal on shatters which also makes the build more team orientated and removes the barrier of stability. So yeah, you might not take DE or HM for another trait line, but if you’re taking Dueluing, HM just isnt on the cards anymore (unless you forgo decoy for mantra cleanse I guess).

Your Dom/dueling/chaos build is a regular interrupt build, nothing to do with phantasms at all. :P You betrayed us! (Never mind in PvP I use mantra lockdown shatter)

Anyway I am concerned that style will be nuked by conditions… My plan is to go Dom/Duel/Insp, keep the mantras AND mantra of pain, running GS, Sw/P and duelist’s discipline. That allows massive burst, sustain and party support.

Toeofdoom.6152:

Your Dom/dueling/chaos build is a regular interrupt build, nothing to do with phantasms at all. :P You betrayed us! (Never mind in PvP I use mantra lockdown shatter)

Anyway I am concerned that style will be nuked by conditions… My plan is to go Dom/Duel/Insp, keep the mantras AND mantra of pain, running GS, Sw/P and duelist’s discipline. That allows massive burst, sustain and party support.

Pretty much, yeah. The game has changed. It’s not a question of recreating builds per’se but creating what’s gonna work.

If they do something with traited sword there may be precedent to take it which might hold on to some of the asthetic of this original build.

Also, I guess you could say “Phantrupt” has been absorbed into the new design of things.

Let’s bump this thread!

For me , Phantrupt is more about the weapons and playstyle than the traits.
For me , Phantrups is about not “spamming” shatters, letting your Phantasms up as long as the enemy allows it, interrupting as it’s Phantrupt and not Phantbunker, playing with scepter + pistol / sword + sword.

I’m not using DE and right now not even the Dueling line, Dom/Chao/Insp seems like fun.
It doesn’t have so nice burst potential than your “meta”-shatters, probably not so much lockdown as a full-lockdown build, you probably can’t play it in the high-tier, but I like it, it’s fun on my average level.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vhAQRAsc7alsnhy0YFawGNwsGLnGk5O22NOrS1zOZASRQB-TJBGwAAeCAx2f4wJBIaZAA

Insp. line is ofc against those annoying condi-builds, as if I can’t burst them down, they would kill me. This way even it’s not a 50-50 fight, but at least not impossible.
And with the signets, I’m a little more useful in bigger fights, I don’t even know how many times were we winning a fight with a (lucky, as it was mostly from Illusionary Inspiration! ) invul on our “whole” team or could I make a res possible which would be a fail without it.

PVP
Right now, if you do not shatter you are not playing the profession at its full potential.
Anet made it clear: they wanted us to shatter. And I think they succeeded. Now, when you shatter you can accomplish many things beside the damage: boons, soft cc, conditions, heal and conditions removal. Give me a reason why I shouldn’t shatter

This is why I think phant builds, the way we were used to, don’t exist anymore
This is also why phant traits are only good in pve. In pvp there are always better options fighting for the slot (only exception phant fury where not everyone takes pistol and not everyone like desperate decoy)

trooper.2650:

PVP
Right now, if you do not shatter you are not playing the profession at its full potential.
Anet made it clear: they wanted us to shatter. And I think they succeeded. Now, when you shatter you can accomplish many things beside the damage: boons, soft cc, conditions, heal and conditions removal. Give me a reason why I shouldn’t shatter

If you don’t have any shatter trait equipped, it remains at the default effects.
If you don’t take shatter-traits, you don’t have to shatter so much as the benefits are smaller.

And btw I did not say I’m not shattering, I did say that I’m not shattering as much as a shatter-oriented build.
The reason: to let the phantasms hit more than once ^^

trooper.2650:

This is why I think phant builds, the way we were used to, don’t exist anymore
This is also why phant traits are only good in pve. In pvp there are always better options fighting for the slot (only exception phant fury where not everyone takes pistol and not everyone like desperate decoy)

Restorative Mantras vs Medic’s Feedback vs Persisting Images (phantasm trait). Are the other 2 “always better”?
Warden’s Feedback vs Restorative Illusions vs Protected Phantasms. If you don’t have DE but have a 12 sec cd 2 condis removed trait, is R. I. really better? For those ~1-1.5k heals / shatters?

And I did not take any other phantasm trait where a “better” non-phantasm trait fights for the same spot.
Did you check the build I linked or just came here and wrote something against phantasms in general?

And yes, I know that the build I linked is not the meta, will never be a meta, and will never be the best. I believe I wrote it down before the link.

Bubi.5237:

Did you check the build I linked or just came here and wrote something against phantasms in general?

This

Jokes aside, when talking about phant build I refer to builds with hard hitting phantasms, phantasms that do the job for you, hence builds with +damage, +crit chance traits & faster hitting phantasms. Those phant traits compete with CS and Maim, to name few.

All other phantasms related traits are in inspiration. Ofc, you can take them and call it a phant build but it will not work as its predecessor because the old builds, and the asskicker too, were meant to have strong phantasms that let you kill things quickly.

I like traited focus, phant regen and retal on phantasms, but even if take them all I am not going to call my build a phant build because it will remind me of the old builds and what they used to achieve. A build with those traits will not accomplish the same goal even if technically speaking is a phantasm build.

But maybe it’s just me who is completely wrong and you can call phant build any build that heavily relys on phantasms regardless whether it’s a support, a bunker, dps or a cheese PU build

trooper.2650:

But maybe it’s just me who is completely wrong and you can call phant build any build that heavily relys on phantasms regardless whether it’s a support, a bunker, dps or a cheese PU build

As I wrote in my “first” post:

Bubi.5237:

For me , Phantrupt is more about the weapons and playstyle than the traits.
For me , Phantrupt is about not “spamming” shatters, letting your Phantasms up as long as the enemy allows it, interrupting as it’s Phantrupt and not Phantbunker, playing with scepter + pistol / sword + sword.

My random weird build is a Phantrupt by my definition.. That’s why I started my post with it, so those who actually read what I wrote can understand my point. ^^

Ok, time to weigh in.

I think the trouble with a phantasm build, or the Asskicker build in particular is actually one of practicality. Yes Mesmer traits, layouts, and dev intentions have changed, but the real issue is the drastic shift in the meta. Personally I’m very weary of channel skills for one, scepter 3, AA’s, phant summons, with mesmers running around going rupt crazy, classic /p thieves, and so much in your face DPS now, it’s really difficult to commit to anything relying on a cast time. The dramatic increase in DPS has also served to exasperate the old issue with phantasms. The AoE, cleave, AA’s, and condi bombs in the game all hit so hard now phants really suffer. The environment is just so kitten hostile it makes running the play-style very, very unpractical.

So with that in mind the way I look at it, if you’re wanting to run some sort of pvp phantasm build you’re first going to need to look at a complete redesign. You’re going to have to look at the basics by asking some simple questions. What role is the build filling? What difficulties is my play style facing? And finally, what practical design can I come up with to overcome these obstacles?

There are a number of trait lines to choose from but what is most optimal is where the real debate lies. The two biggest challenges I think are fitting in strong condition cleanse, and Phantasmal Haste. Above all other traits I believe phantasmal haste is the only trait that turns the presence of phantasms that can be found on any old Mesmer build into a truly distinctive, destructive presence. Other traits would certainly further optimize, but that one reigns supreme (now that it applies properly).