Guild Wars 2

Hi there, I’m Lahel also known as Shackelberry on Gandara EU.

I read Chaos’s thread Lockdown: The Underexplored Playstyle, and thought that’s a pretty cool playstyle, how can I adapt that to my current playstyle (variation of Osicat PU spec and Blackwater). PU specs are more about playing the waiting game, or that’s atleast my experience whereas Lockdown builds are upfront and aggressive, two completely different playstyles, and I wanted to combine those two so to speak.

I’m a condition mesmer through and through and have pretty much only played condition based specs, and that doesn’t go that well with the upfront aggressive playstyle of lockdown specs, of course I wanted to bypass that, thinking it has to be possible, and I think I succeded alright (this is where I really need feedback from you guys).

10/30/30/0/0 aka Shackel’d

I took the traits from the PU spec and threw out PU and went for CI (magnificent trait btw) instead, with Mantra of distraction, magic bullet, and diversion this trait can be procced really nicely and you can chain immobilize someone by following it up with iLeap.
The extra 5 points in duelist was because I thought I was still relying a lot on my clones dying (PU playstyle) so I thought Illusionary combatants would supplement that style of play.
I took 15 points in dom for Illusion of Vulnerability and Dazzling if you time it right you can stack up a big chunk of vulnerability leaving the oppenent.. well vulnerable.
A question that might pop up in your head now, “If you’re gonna play a lockdown build with interrupts, why not go for halting strike?” I did run with Halting strike in the beginning as a matter of fact, but after pm’ing Chaos Archangel.5071 for opinions on this spec, he pointed out that if I wasn’t power based Crippling Dissipation would be much better, so I tried it out and I had to agree with him, the damage I was missing from Halting strike was not noticable.

This has been working out really great for me so far, and I think as I get more accustomed to using shatters, other than diversion and distortion, I will go more towards this.

PS: I know this looks similar to Blackwater and other PU specs, but I’d like to think of it as a CI spec instead.

Feedback would be greatly appreciated

EDIT: Forgot to mention this spec is aimed at WvWvW roaming and I’ll be sitting on the [OMFG] teamspeak in case anyone want to jump on and give feedback

EDIT2: Have revised my traits and changed a sigil so it looks like this now

EDIT3: Have yet again revised my traits so they look like this. I have also decided to name the build Shackel’d (immobilize is shown as purple shackels around your enemy, and my characters name is Shackelberry :p)

EDIT4 (8. oct. 2013: Will do a rehaul of this entire post in the near future, going into more details regarding trait choices, utilites etc.

Blackwater smackwater. The way people go on about it while crafting you’d think he created PU. Don’t worry about it, Blackwater was hardly the first of its kind in play. Really just the first advertised.

That said, whenever I see a build using Perplexity runes I no longer see a “build”. Really it’s just perplexity runes with whatever other kitten you want to throw in it. Why? Because perplexity runes are the build in themselves.

Your build, like Blackwater, has all the same shortcomings, i.e. swiftness, maneuverability, that cc and burst. Only yours, not having cleansing conflageration, has less condition removal (null field doesn’t make up for it). Taking 25 in dueling is awesome though, but only right up until you need that extra cooldown and condition removal from domination.

But I do have swiftness and light field for condition removal too.
Besides playing an interrupt/lockdown mesmer I’d think you’d go with the runes that you benefit the most from, in the case of a condition specced it would be perplexity where in a power spec it would maybe be Rune of the mesmer.

Ross is right about not feeling like you’re copying anyone. Having Prismatic Understanding makes you a PU spec, not having a similar trait allocation. And yeah, the builds posted on the forums are templates anyone can use, so no one really has a monopoly over a build.

Ross Biddle.2367:

That said, whenever I see a build using Perplexity runes I no longer see a “build”. Really it’s just perplexity runes with whatever other kitten you want to throw in it. Why? Because perplexity runes are the build in themselves.

Your build, like Blackwater, has all the same shortcomings, i.e. swiftness, maneuverability, that cc and burst. Only yours, not having cleansing conflageration, has less condition removal (null field doesn’t make up for it). Taking 25 in dueling is awesome though, but only right up until you need that extra cooldown and condition removal from domination.

The runes wouldn’t mean anything if the build wasn’t equipped to utilize it. With MoDistraction, this build both has more interrupt options than normal and some of the best forms of Mesmer interrupting in Temporal Curtain and the instant dazes. And the simple fact is that almost all Mesmer builds have lousy condition removal, its a general Mesmer weakness. Null Field is one of the best ways of mitigating that, especially if you’re comparing it to Torch traits and Sigil (and LIGHTfield + Duelist or Warden). With the Focus, this build has the potential of a near 50% Swiftness uptime, not including what could be grabbed by allies.

What I like here is that you’ve got a solid setup with a high amount of Condition Damage with both Damaging conditions( On weapons: confusion, torment, bleeds) and control conditions (Clone deaths/interrupts: weakness, vulnerability, chill, cripple, ect) that, for the most part, don’t really rely on interrupts.

(On Interrupt: 3x Vuln, 5x Might, 5x Confusion, 3s Immobilize, 3s Cripple/Chill/Blind.. very nice. )

I’m glad you grabbed Dazzling too, it makes Diversion and MoDistraction stack a large amount of Vuln, which in turn makes all your conditions that much more deadly (Edit: Foolish mistake. Still, the Vuln+Might stacking will add a decent bit of direct damage depending on your interrupt frequency). Compared to Blackwater, this build does more damage and much more enemy control (Vuln stacking, Boon removal, 50% movement speed, Confusion, instant dazes, buttload of debilitations on interrupt. ) at the cost of the excellent defense of stealths/protection/aegis. I’m personally not a fan of condition builds, but my love for lockdown makes this look pretty tempting.

Edit: I would say that I think Scepter/Pistol – Sword/Focus is a better weaponsetup. IMO Scepter/Pistol offers better condition damage and control (blind/stuns) and sword/focus would be better defense (Blurred Frenzy, Warden, Pull) but that’s more personal preference.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I’m glad you grabbed Dazzling too, it makes Diversion and MoDistraction stack a large amount of Vuln, which in turn makes all your conditions that much more deadly. Compared to Blackwater, this build does more damage and much more enemy control (Vuln stacking, Boon removal, 50% movement speed, Confusion, instant dazes, buttload of debilitations on interrupt. ) at the cost of the excellent defense of stealths/protection/aegis. I’m personally not a fan of condition builds, but my love for lockdown makes this look pretty tempting.

I’m glad you feel tempted that gives me the feeling my idea ain’t half bad.
For a spec with this many dazes I would never give up Dazzling, the amount of vulnerability stacks you can put on a person paired with Illusion of vulnerability is just amazing.
To comment on the lack of defenses (stealth, aegis, protection) I find that if I play it right and I’m aware of what is happening around me, I don’t need them.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Edit: I would say that I think Scepter/Pistol – Sword/Focus is a better weaponsetup. IMO Scepter/Pistol offers better condition damage and control (blind/stuns) and sword/focus would be better defense (Blurred Frenzy, Warden, Pull) but that’s more personal preference.

I have thought about it, but having played with sword/pistol for so long I just seem to have a hard time letting that go :P

I have yet to decide on what this spec should be called, if it at all deserves a name :p

Chaos, what do you by" vuln makes your conditions more deadly"? As a cleaning cover efect or something like that¿

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I’m glad you grabbed Dazzling too, it makes Diversion and MoDistraction stack a large amount of Vuln, which in turn makes all your conditions that much more deadly.

How does vuln stacking affect condition damage dealt? The official definition is that it increases damage taken by 1% for each stack, so is it simply a percentage of the condition damage you’re dealing? Personally I’ve never looked at vuln that way – I’ve always thought that applied to just direct damage and the wiki damage page does not indicate vuln when factoring in condition damage. If it applies to condition damage too, I guess I’ve learned something new today …

I just went to the indestructible golem in heart of the mist. applied conditions to it without vulnerability on it, bleed would tick for 119 and poison tick for 236, unfortunatly (im crying a little on the inside) afterwards when i tried applying 25 stacks of vulnerability and then immediatly afterwards applied poison on the golem it would still tick for 236

Yeah, that’s my bad. For some reason, its stuck in my head that Vuln affects Condition Damage like how Might does. Someone used to tell me that when I was still learning the game.

(However, when I quickly confirmed this online, I stumbled across this awesome Bleed guide that Ima add to the Mes guide)

Oh, and for now why not just call the build something like “[WvW] Lahel’s Condition/Lockdown” Very few people are gonna know that CI means Chaotic Interruption until they read the thread

renamed
/15 char

Shameless bump for feedback on new trait distribution.

I moved 5 points from dueling into illusion to get the minor trait Illusionary retribution to have a more active control over my confusion application and it coupled with diversion and interrupt can stack up a good amount of confusion.

I apolegize for yet another bump the traits have been revised

why don’t you spec 30 in dueling for the pistol cd and 100% projectile finisher?
It brings so much more to the table then a few stacks vulnerability. And if you spam clones, you can get rid of phantasmal fury and take sword cd. Your leap and your phantasm-cd is reduced >> more clones >> more procs.

chaotic interruption isn’t imho worthy a gm slot due to internal cd and the great area control (AE cripple, sword immo, 2 blocks) with this sort of build.

blutstein.2468:

why don’t you spec 30 in dueling for the pistol cd and 100% projectile finisher?
It brings so much more to the table then a few stacks vulnerability. And if you spam clones, you can get rid of phantasmal fury and take sword cd. Your leap and your phantasm-cd is reduced >> more clones >> more procs.

I thought of that, but decided that I wouldn’t simply because of how powerful crippling dissipation is against melee.
In regard to the 100% projectile finisher, that’s a bug and “exploit” and I don’t want to use it.
This is a condi build so phantasmal fury is great for bleed procs, and I never felt the need for reduced cds on sword.

chaotic interruption isn’t imho worthy a gm slot due to internal cd and the great area control (AE cripple, sword immo, 2 blocks) with this sort of build.

What internal cd?
In your head what is this sort of build?
What gm trait would you suggest instead?

oh, I see you already moved 5 points to from dom to illusions. i commented the 15/25/30 build but never the less, why 5 illusions? you never shatter with this build. Here we go again: sword or pistol cd would bring much more to the table. And about the pistol: It is stated that its a bug? never the less its not gamebreaking.
But thats your thing if you dont wanna use it.

I haven’t used CI since a while and thought that it has an internal cd.
If you do an AoE interrupt, its only one foe who is immobilized? it might be that i’m wrong….
If you wanna 30 chaos I would choose PU. Even without the torch its amazing (i use it only with MI and Decoy and its worthy along with all the boons you get from BI.

my head says: its a clonespammer build with interrupts it might be that you never felt it but its a fact: more clones = more dmgprocs. Shorter CD on your weapons = more clones. more immobs, more finishers, more evades, more blocks that spawn even more clones. Its so clearly superior to 5 points in illusion, to power up shatters you never use and 50 condition dmg imho.

edit: here a little selfquote from another thread, its my favorite build atm:

blutstein.2468:

i like my rampagers set. in terms of dungeon-runs and the condition cap it really kinda suck (switch to phantasm/berserk) but i love it in wvw or solo.

I run a interrupt clonespammer build using rampagers. 2nd & 3rd utility are situational. I like the reactive counter playstyle.

with 25 might i sit at nearly 1600 condition dmg, and it adds up quickly.

blutstein.2468:

oh, I see you already moved 5 points to from dom to illusions. i commented the 15/25/30 build but never the less, why 5 illusions? you never shatter with this build. Here we go again: sword or pistol cd would bring much more to the table. And about the pistol: It is stated that its a bug? never the less its not gamebreaking.
But thats your thing if you dont wanna use it.

I haven’t used CI since a while and thought that it has an internal cd.
If you do an AoE interrupt, its only one foe who is immobilized? it might be that i’m wrong….
If you wanna 30 chaos I would choose PU. Even without the torch its amazing (i use it only with MI and Decoy and its worthy along with all the boons you get from BI.

my head says: its a clonespammer build with interrupts it might be that you never felt it but its a fact: more clones = more dmgprocs. Shorter CD on your weapons = more clones. more immobs, more finishers, more evades, more blocks that spawn even more clones. Its so clearly superior to 5 points in illusion, to power up shatters you never use and 50 condition dmg imho.

As matter of fact I shatter a lot, hence the 5 points in illusions, which gives me a more active control over the pressure I apply to an opponent.

I have more often than not procced CI on several people with just one into the void pull.

Honstly I don’t find PU that great and I don’t wanna rely on it to keep me safe. Playing clever and better is what should keep me safe, and so far that has worked wonders.

reduced cd on sword or pistol might be great, but I feel I get a lot more out of other traits, especially when I don’t feel it is necessary to “waste” a trait to get lower cds when I can get something better, like phantasmal fury for more bleed procs.
Let’s face it, in most condi specs a huge portion of the damage and the pressure comes from bleed on crit procs from illusions.

EDIT: I looked at the build and I’ll ask the same question I once was asked. How much damage does your halting strike do, because if it’s not above 1500 or near 2000 it’s not worth it really.

blutstein.2468:

I haven’t used CI since a while and thought that it has an internal cd.
If you do an AoE interrupt, its only one foe who is immobilized? it might be that i’m wrong….

Just to clear this one up, CI has no internal cool down and applies to anyone you interrupt at any time.

Lahel.6381:

blutstein.2468:

oh, I see you already moved 5 points to from dom to illusions. i commented the 15/25/30 build but never the less, why 5 illusions? you never shatter with this build. Here we go again: sword or pistol cd would bring much more to the table. And about the pistol: It is stated that its a bug? never the less its not gamebreaking.
But thats your thing if you dont wanna use it.

I haven’t used CI since a while and thought that it has an internal cd.
If you do an AoE interrupt, its only one foe who is immobilized? it might be that i’m wrong….
If you wanna 30 chaos I would choose PU. Even without the torch its amazing (i use it only with MI and Decoy and its worthy along with all the boons you get from BI.

my head says: its a clonespammer build with interrupts it might be that you never felt it but its a fact: more clones = more dmgprocs. Shorter CD on your weapons = more clones. more immobs, more finishers, more evades, more blocks that spawn even more clones. Its so clearly superior to 5 points in illusion, to power up shatters you never use and 50 condition dmg imho.

As matter of fact I shatter a lot, hence the 5 points in illusions, which gives me a more active control over the pressure I apply to an opponent.

I have more often than not procced CI on several people with just one into the void pull.

Honstly I don’t find PU that great and I don’t wanna rely on it to keep me safe. Playing clever and better is what should keep me safe, and so far that has worked wonders.

reduced cd on sword or pistol might be great, but I feel I get a lot more out of other traits, especially when I don’t feel it is necessary to “waste” a trait to get lower cds when I can get something better, like phantasmal fury for more bleed procs.
Let’s face it, in most condi specs a huge portion of the damage and the pressure comes from bleed on crit procs from illusions.

EDIT: I looked at the build and I’ll ask the same question I once was asked. How much damage does your halting strike do, because if it’s not above 1500 or near 2000 it’s not worth it really.

my halting strike ranges between 2k and 4k (depending on might stacks)

i don’t rely on PU, but for me its clearly the better filler over CI atm. And don’t forget i’m in glasscannon-gear without any toughnesss (besides the toughness from chaos), so its simply an amazing survival-tool in my preferred tree. With clever movement it gets even better!
If you don’t choose Dom V CI might be useful as a control source, but with Dom V your enemy are perma-crippled, with Chaos V most of the time weakened too. so no need for more movement-control imho.
But you’re right, perhaps I have to try it again, because i assumed there is an internal cd.

How is your critchance? I think you should sitting at around 50% with rabid gear. thats enough for bleeding imho.
I have around 60%, with Chaos V i can get to 15 stacks bleeding in no time. Last time i slotted phantasmal fury, i didn’t realize any great improvements as opposed to weapon-cd. Hence, i would choose Dueling XII over phantasmal fury in a clonespam build even with its cd. scepter-auto with haste > more clones > more procs. its very nice to especially with scepter auto but the icd is a bit too long. To make a long story short: Phantasmal fury is for a phantasm build imho, and nothing else.

last but not least: you have to choose your main dmg-source imho.

you shatter often? so 3 of your traits are completly worthless. Your ShatterCDs are way to high to relie on them.
Your main source of dmg comes from phantasm bleeds? so why clone on dodge? In the heat of the battle one dogde too much and there goes your phantasm in a cloud of butterflys and you re waiting around 20 secs for your next main dmg source?
You choose many on-clone-death traits, but you stated its not your dmg source.

think about it! but hey, if it fits your playstyle, go with it. its just my 2c its all about fun

With the amount of condi removal other classes have over mesmers, an opponent will never run around perma crippled.

last but not least: you have to choose your main dmg-source imho.
you shatter often? so 3 of your traits are completly worthless. Your ShatterCDs are way to high to relie on them.
Your main source of dmg comes from phantasm bleeds? so why clone on dodge? In the heat of the battle one dogde too much and there goes your phantasm in a cloud of butterflys and you re waiting around 20 secs for your next main dmg source?
You choose many on-clone-death traits, but you stated its not your dmg source.

I have my main damage source, and it’s conditions whether they are applied actively (interrupts, etc.) or passively (clone death, bleed on crit etc.).

I use shatters F1 and F2 when I have a person rooted and my phantasm have already blown it’s salve, because while they are rooted my clones won’t get killed unless I actively overwrite them.

I use shatter F3 for chain dazing (can be done with strategic placement of clones), especially when the opponent is low hp to disrupt their panic heals, this paired with magic bullet, MoDistraction does so I can keep someone from getting their heal off long enough for my conditions to kill them, and the better I get, the more often I pull that off.

And lastly, I have no problem generating clones without reduced cd on sword and pistol.

But I will have to look into the amount of bleeds I get with fury and without fury, what you stated about that makes perfect sense, and I will determine it’s value with personal data.

EDIT: You have to remember that when someone is immobilized they can’t use regular dodge.

blutstein.2468:

Your main source of dmg comes from phantasm bleeds? so why clone on dodge? In the heat of the battle one dogde too much and there goes your phantasm in a cloud of butterflys and you re waiting around 20 secs for your next main dmg source?
You choose many on-clone-death traits, but you stated its not your dmg source.

Clones overwrite clones ahead of phantasms, the only way to destroy a phantasm with a clone is to have 3 phantasms out and proc the clone. If you have 2 clones and a phantasm out and then chain two dodge rolls this will destroy the two original clones, getting you 2 procs of Dom 5 and Chaos 5 while maintaining the phantasm.

you’ve no chance to remove the cripple constantly. The only profession is stealth-thief with remove on stealth but because of the stealth and the ability to reengage (we all know that). Opposed to your immo every few sec if you land an interrupt, this is the condition that was instantly removed because you can’t reapply it with one dodge-roll like the cripple.

Shatter F1 and F2 in a condition build without shatter-cd is completly crap, sry. how much dmg could this be? 500 per clone? Cry of frustration untraited is crap too.
And the mainpoint is: if you would produce more clones you would get so much more out of your chosen traits: Crippling, weakness, bleeding, confusion. And have your clones up for bleeding stacks, meatshield and your bonusheal.

And you choose to shatter for ridiculous direct dmg and a short confusion. On top of that if your clones are away from your opponent, he can dodge easily out of your shatter. and if not, its not even dangerous because of little dmg and short confusion.

and sry, i ve to giggle at your chaindazing. maybe against pve dumbkitten or lucky throws in a zerg but not against an opponent with half a brain. how often have you managed this, if you even can’t predict if your clone attacks the target you want, and not the white rabbid in the other direction?
And then youve to wait long, long, long 42 secs for your next try. No thanks, thats clearly not fun. the only shatter i use as my last panic button is f4. Sometimes F1 to finish one down, but most of the time its cleary better to do your clonespam thing and let the explosions do their work.

And lastly, I have no problem generating clones without reduced cd on sword and pistol.

sure are you generating clones. But not nearly as much as it could be. you do not get as much out of your traits as you can. instead you are shattering (supported with one lousy minor trait) or let your phantasm do their work (supported with one trait out of how many? 5? 6?)

Don’t get me wrong, i’m sure your build works, but it could work better if you look more precisely at the synergies your trait setup provides.

@lord jim: I know that, but to be honest: do you ever have the overview, how many clones or/and phantasms of you are on the field? your writing is purely theoretical. Especially with dueling X. in a phantasm build yes, but not with dueling X imho.

I find it fairly easy to remember which phantasms I have up, its two skills you’ve used on top of the fact they are fairly eye catching and the animations/sounds of some are very obvious, its pretty easy to work out if they’ve been destroyed or not. As for dueling X its irrelevant unless there are 3 phantasms up, which is an unusual situation for a non-phantasm based build, so further clone creation has no impact on your phantasms, you either reach your 3 illusion limit of you overwrite one of your existing clones and proc on death traits.

And you choose to shatter for ridiculous direct dmg and a short confusion. On top of that if your clones are away from your opponent, he can dodge easily out of your shatter. and if not, its not even dangerous because of little dmg and short confusion.

Can’t dodge while immobilized.

and sry, i ve to giggle at your chaindazing. maybe against pve dumbkitten or lucky throws in a zerg but not against an opponent with half a brain. how often have you managed this, if you even can’t predict if your clone attacks the target you want, and not the white rabbid in the other direction?

Quite often actually, I haven’t run into many problems with the surrounding wild life.

Don’t get me wrong, i’m sure your build works, but it could work better if you look more precisely at the synergies your trait setup provides.

For my playstyle, and the playstyle I’m going for I actually think my traits synergize fairly well.

@lord jim: I know that, but to be honest: do you ever have the overview, how many clones or/and phantasms of you are on the field? your writing is purely theoretical. Especially with dueling X. in a phantasm build yes, but not with dueling X imho.

I do, it’s pretty simple actually o.O and have you tried this spec out, if not aren’t your writing purely theoretical too?

PS: gonna make dinner now, so might be a while before next reply
PPS: This is very good btw, I think we have a good debate going, but I’d much prefer if you didn’t ridicule, it sorta degrades the debate.

Lahel.6381:

And you choose to shatter for ridiculous direct dmg and a short confusion. On top of that if your clones are away from your opponent, he can dodge easily out of your shatter. and if not, its not even dangerous because of little dmg and short confusion.

Can’t dodge while immobilized.

and sry, i ve to giggle at your chaindazing. maybe against pve dumbkitten or lucky throws in a zerg but not against an opponent with half a brain. how often have you managed this, if you even can’t predict if your clone attacks the target you want, and not the white rabbid in the other direction?

Quite often actually, I haven’t run into many problems with the surrounding wild life.

Don’t get me wrong, i’m sure your build works, but it could work better if you look more precisely at the synergies your trait setup provides.

For my playstyle, and the playstyle I’m going for I actually think my traits synergize fairly well.

@lord jim: I know that, but to be honest: do you ever have the overview, how many clones or/and phantasms of you are on the field? your writing is purely theoretical. Especially with dueling X. in a phantasm build yes, but not with dueling X imho.

I do, it’s pretty simple actually o.O and have you tried this spec out, if not aren’t your writing purely theoretical too?

PS: gonna make dinner now, so might be a while before next reply
PPS: This is very good btw, I think we have a good debate going, but I’d much prefer if you didn’t ridicule, it sorta degrades the debate.

sry, don’t want to degrade, no no no but F1-shatter in a condition spec is really bad.

Further I comment tomorrow at work, now its playtime at home

its really a nice discussion)

sry, don’t want to degrade, no no no but F1-shatter in a condition spec is really bad.
Further I comment tomorrow at work, now its playtime at home
its really a nice discussion)

Yes F1 shatter is stupidly bad which is why I use mostly F2 when I have the opponent rooted, which will give 6 stacks of confusion for 3~ seconds (condi duration etc.) now that will hit for approx 2k~ maybe more, not sure at the moment, if they cleanse it instantly, which imo is good damage compared with that they traded a cleanse for it (I know people don’t always insta cleanse, but often I have found people try to retaliate and do w/e they can when they are rooted.

EDIT: Taking your name into account I assume you’re from EU, so if you ever want to chat in game or we happen to be “enemies” in WvW, do hit me up

signed Gandaras Finest Fro :p

@Lahel: Hey could you put the revised traits in the original link? It’s a bit confusing to have both links to the new and old version.

blutstein.2468:

you’ve no chance to remove the cripple constantly. The only profession is stealth-thief with remove on stealth but because of the stealth and the ability to reengage (we all know that). Opposed to your immo every few sec if you land an interrupt, this is the condition that was instantly removed because you can’t reapply it with one dodge-roll like the cripple.

Shatter F1 and F2 in a condition build without shatter-cd is completly crap, sry. how much dmg could this be? 500 per clone? Cry of frustration untraited is crap too.
And the mainpoint is: if you would produce more clones you would get so much more out of your chosen traits: Crippling, weakness, bleeding, confusion. And have your clones up for bleeding stacks, meatshield and your bonusheal.

And you choose to shatter for ridiculous direct dmg and a short confusion. On top of that if your clones are away from your opponent, he can dodge easily out of your shatter. and if not, its not even dangerous because of little dmg and short confusion.

and sry, i ve to giggle at your chaindazing. maybe against pve dumbkitten or lucky throws in a zerg but not against an opponent with half a brain. how often have you managed this, if you even can’t predict if your clone attacks the target you want, and not the white rabbid in the other direction?
And then youve to wait long, long, long 42 secs for your next try. No thanks, thats clearly not fun. the only shatter i use as my last panic button is f4. Sometimes F1 to finish one down, but most of the time its cleary better to do your clonespam thing and let the explosions do their work.

And lastly, I have no problem generating clones without reduced cd on sword and pistol.

sure are you generating clones. But not nearly as much as it could be. you do not get as much out of your traits as you can. instead you are shattering (supported with one lousy minor trait) or let your phantasm do their work (supported with one trait out of how many? 5? 6?)

Don’t get me wrong, i’m sure your build works, but it could work better if you look more precisely at the synergies your trait setup provides.

I think you’re looking at the build with a different playstyle strategy than how Lahel intended.

• Those 5 points for confusion do make a difference. iLeap, Bullet, and Chaotic Interruption leave enough clone-shatter opportunities to stack confusion without even using iDuelist. The shatters aren’t a main damage source but help keep constant stacks of confusion on an opponent when Duelist has nothing to combo through.

• The chain dazing is fine. DazeMantra> Bullet> Curtain> DazeMantra alone would take someone out of a fight for around 5 seconds unless they blow their stunbreaks, and that’s one of many potential stunlock combos this build has without even considering Chaotic Interruption or Diversion.

• Shattering is all in the technique. Of course it’s gonna be harder to shatter with ranged clones than sword clones, and yer gonna run the risk of opponents dodging but that’s the same issue for any shatter build.

This build, like a few other lockdown builds, uses both Shatters AND Phantasms for damage. That’s part of what makes them so difficult, but it works out pretty well when you spend time with the build.

@Lahel: Hey could you put the revised traits in the original link? It’s a bit confusing to have both links to the new and old version.

Done, and appreciate the support

Lahel, your build link isn’t working. The Calculator is …empty. >.>

NVM. I just saw.. it’s only traits.

Oh yes you are right.. ehm Ill get around to fixing that forgot to put in the gear as well when I changed the link of my old traits to the new one, my apolegies

lol no worries. I saw the traits, I’m gonna give it a try. :O Looks dope.

Fixed it with gear now too

Chaos Archangel.5071:

@Lahel: Hey could you put the revised traits in the original link? It’s a bit confusing to have both links to the new and old version.

blutstein.2468:

you’ve no chance to remove the cripple constantly. The only profession is stealth-thief with remove on stealth but because of the stealth and the ability to reengage (we all know that). Opposed to your immo every few sec if you land an interrupt, this is the condition that was instantly removed because you can’t reapply it with one dodge-roll like the cripple.

Shatter F1 and F2 in a condition build without shatter-cd is completly crap, sry. how much dmg could this be? 500 per clone? Cry of frustration untraited is crap too.
And the mainpoint is: if you would produce more clones you would get so much more out of your chosen traits: Crippling, weakness, bleeding, confusion. And have your clones up for bleeding stacks, meatshield and your bonusheal.

And you choose to shatter for ridiculous direct dmg and a short confusion. On top of that if your clones are away from your opponent, he can dodge easily out of your shatter. and if not, its not even dangerous because of little dmg and short confusion.

and sry, i ve to giggle at your chaindazing. maybe against pve dumbkitten or lucky throws in a zerg but not against an opponent with half a brain. how often have you managed this, if you even can’t predict if your clone attacks the target you want, and not the white rabbid in the other direction?
And then youve to wait long, long, long 42 secs for your next try. No thanks, thats clearly not fun. the only shatter i use as my last panic button is f4. Sometimes F1 to finish one down, but most of the time its cleary better to do your clonespam thing and let the explosions do their work.

And lastly, I have no problem generating clones without reduced cd on sword and pistol.

sure are you generating clones. But not nearly as much as it could be. you do not get as much out of your traits as you can. instead you are shattering (supported with one lousy minor trait) or let your phantasm do their work (supported with one trait out of how many? 5? 6?)

Don’t get me wrong, i’m sure your build works, but it could work better if you look more precisely at the synergies your trait setup provides.

I think you’re looking at the build with a different playstyle strategy than how Lahel intended.

• Those 5 points for confusion do make a difference. iLeap, Bullet, and Chaotic Interruption leave enough clone-shatter opportunities to stack confusion without even using iDuelist. The shatters aren’t a main damage source but help keep constant stacks of confusion on an opponent when Duelist has nothing to combo through.

mhmm sure it fits a little bit but hey its simply logical… so many traits for clone-death (esp. confusion on clone death ) AND confusion on shatter. so one trait is definitifly wasted every fight. If shatter for confusion then go 20/0/10 and 33% confusionduration. thats what i mean with: Don’t get me wrong, i’m sure your build works, but it could work better if you look more precisely at the synergies your trait setup provides.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• The chain dazing is fine. DazeMantra> Bullet> Curtain> DazeMantra alone would take someone out of a fight for around 5 seconds unless they blow their stunbreaks, and that’s one of many potential stunlock combos this build has without even considering Chaotic Interruption or Diversion.

no question this chaindaze works, look at my build, lockdowns are my bread and butter. with Sw/Sw and Sc/P I can chaindaze too easily.
But Lhahel is talking about one F3 Shatter and chaindaze through 3 perfectly placed clones, arriving at the target every second after another in the heat of the battle and environment, i’m curious how to archive that.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• Shattering is all in the technique. Of course it’s gonna be harder to shatter with ranged clones than sword clones, and yer gonna run the risk of opponents dodging but that’s the same issue for any shatter build.

This build, like a few other lockdown builds, uses both Shatters AND Phantasms for damage. That’s part of what makes them so difficult, but it works out pretty well when you spend time with the build.

Every good mesmer should shatter, its core mechanic of the class, personally the most innovative i’ve ever played (loved the illusionist in EQ2 too). Its build-independent.

All I say that he should look a little bit closer at the synergies and his traits.

mhmm sure it fits a little bit but hey its simply logical… so many traits for clone-death (esp. confusion on clone death ) AND confusion on shatter. so one trait is definitifly wasted every fight. If shatter for confusion then go 20/0/10 and 33% confusionduration. thats what i mean with: Don’t get me wrong, i’m sure your build works, but it could work better if you look more precisely at the synergies your trait setup provides.

I shatter and let my clones die in every fight, so how is one of my traits wasted every fight? I get something out of letting them die and I get something out of shattering them.

But Lhahel is talking about one F3 Shatter and chaindaze through 3 perfectly placed clones, arriving at the target every second after another in the heat of the battle and environment, i’m curious how to archive that.

It can be tricky I’ll give you that, but unless you get flustered and disoriented in combat and can’t keep a cool head, it is not as hard to achieve as you’d think.

Hi, could you check your build links in the first post? The latest one seems broken.

Cheers

The latest one is the first build link (10/25/30/0/5 shackel’d), which seems to work fine for me

Lahel.6381:

I shatter and let my clones die in every fight, so how is one of my traits wasted every fight? I get something out of letting them die and I get something out of shattering them.

You don’t see my point.

Let me explain: So if your clone is out, you either shatter (so your traits for clone-death are wasted, because shattering doesn’t count as clonedeath) or summon the next clone (clone dies, so your shatter trait is wasted). You can do what you want: you will never benefit from both. Thats simply a fact!

So let us throw in some numbers:

So in the best case for F1 shattering with 3 illusions up:
3 Stacks confusion for 3 sec for 3 Illusions

and no illusion left (so no bonus heal, no meatshield, no chance for distortion (f4-Shatter). One dodgeroll more and you have one clone.

Lets compare that with clonedeath:

The best case for further summoning clones with 3 Illusions up:

Crippling (3s)
1 Confusion (3s)

Weakness (3 s) or 3 Bleeding (5 s) or 3 Vulnerability (5 s)

thats for 1 replaced clone

and you have still 3 illusions left, thats around 2000 extra healing through ether feast every 20 sec, 3 meatshields with bleeding on crit AND you can even shatter for emergency. One dodgeroll more and you put up the conditions again!

And I don’t even take in account, that you have 5 points to distribute left and could get 20sec pistol-CD or or or…

So tell me, where should be the synergy for this 5 points minor trait? it doesn’t exist.
Unpredictability is really not an argument for me. Fighting another player is almost always unpredictable unlike pve-stuff.

I tested the build on weekend and for me it feels totally misplaced. I think you want to much: clonedeath, shatter AND Phantasm Dmg. You get more out of it, if you specialize yourself a little bit more. Did you even try out my suggestions?

But Lhahel is talking about one F3 Shatter and chaindaze through 3 perfectly placed clones, arriving at the target every second after another in the heat of the battle and environment, i’m curious how to archive that.

It can be tricky I’ll give you that, but unless you get flustered and disoriented in combat and can’t keep a cool head, it is not as hard to achieve as you’d think.[/quote]

if you ask me, its not tricky, its a lucky coincidence. In fact nothing you can relie on because you have to carefully prepare this action, you have to take to many circumstances in account that your dazechain works. If your foe runs in the opposite direction, you can start again! Not to mention the awful cd without points in illusions.

Perhaps you are a far better player than me, but i don’t believe that you could use your daze-chain as a reliable source every fight only through clever clone placing.
I really wanna see a video how you archiv that chain (with planned placement not just pure luck) on the battlefield.

I’m on the phone so bear with me, my response won’t be long.

I see your logic and I understand your logic. I much appreciate you trying out my setup, sorry that you found it trying to do to much.

As matter of fact I have tried some of your suggestions, mainly running with sword CD instead of fury, unfortunately fights have been scarze over the weekend so not done testing. So far I don’t miss fury but I don’t feel the reduced cds make a big difference for me.

When I get home today I will look into testing a 10/30/30 with pistol CD, to see if I miss the 5 points in illusion or if will value the reduced cd higher.

I very much appreciate your feedback.

Signed, Gandaras finest fro

So after having fought a couple of 1v1’s today and a single 1v2 (ranger+ele) with a 10/30/30 variant I can say I value the traited pistol, the extra precision and crit damage over confusion on shatter, BUT I simply cannot get myself to use ethereal fields while having pistol traited, yes I may be gimping myself but I don’t believe that it is working as intended and I do not want to depend on that “bug”, besides I’ve come to love Arcane Thievery so much that I hardly ever swap it out for null field or iDisenchanter.

That being said, I appreciate your feedback and I thank you for helping me improve upon my build Blutstein. I also realise our builds are similar but I’d like to think they are still far apart

One thing though

you will never benefit from both at the same time. Thats simply a fact!

Fixed that for you

EDIT: I apolegize for double post

Lahel.6381:

So after having fought a couple of 1v1’s today and a single 1v2 (ranger+ele) with a 10/30/30 variant I can say I value the traited pistol, the extra precision and crit damage over confusion on shatter, BUT I simply cannot get myself to use ethereal fields while having pistol traited, yes I may be gimping myself but I don’t believe that it is working as intended and I do not want to depend on that “bug”, besides I’ve come to love Arcane Thievery so much that I hardly ever swap it out for null field or iDisenchanter.

That being said, I appreciate your feedback and I thank you for helping me improve upon my build Blutstein. I also realise our builds are similar but I’d like to think they are still far apart

Thank you I know you like it

Manipulations are great, if you like you can trait the CD as well, i do sometimes.
At the moment I try to incorporate mantras (will be buffed next patch) and its far better than I thought (daze, power cleanse, healing mantra and trait) once you get used to it.

I think, we are not so far away as you think. You choose the condition way, with the added survivability from toughness you can trait more offensive beneath your personal must-haves due to your playstyle. My glassy gear let PU be the better choice.
But first runs with your choice (CI) are good as well, although I have to adjust my gear slightly towards more survivability.

I started with beserk gear (its great too, but traitchoices are different, because clonedeaths didn’t hurt.) Then I switched to a rabid condition setup like you: My conditions then hurt, but the powerheavy skillsof my desired weapon-combinations (Offhand-Sword is my musthave, can’t go without it, can’t count how often the added block beneath scepter or/and the interrupt/daze saved my life) hit like a wet noodle. Overall it felt not optimised enough again.
After a while i choose to try out the proscribed rampager setup, hoping that I don’t invest for nothing (remembering back that some known forummesmers heavily advised me against it)

Guess what? People melt left and right. After an evening WvW I was so sure that Rampagers is my way to go.

I’m glad, you found your way

Lahel.6381:

you will never benefit from both at the same time. Thats simply a fact!

Fixed that for you

From my point of view, I believe people have too great a focus on, on-death traits vs. shatters. Tbh, I run a build that focuses on lots n lots of conditions, on-death traits etc etc bla bla you know it. But I also shatter sometimes, if I want to have that added momentum of damage. Ofc this means that in that particular instance my on-death traits are “wasted”, but it doesn’t negate having them.

tldr: just because you utilize on-death traits, doesn’t mean you can’t shatter from time to time Or have traits that boost shattering imo at least!