Guild Wars 2

apharma.3741:

Plok.5873:

Levetty.1279:

Because the Mesmer motto is twice the work for half the results.

From a player enjoying engineer and mesmer class… engineer requires clearly more effort & coordination, sry.

Generally I would not worry about the gyros at all. From the POI vid & the turret balance (aka obliteration) I presume to expect they whole set of gyros will die from one Mirror Blade + Mind Stab.

Also running with many kits offers so much more flexibility and, if just hopping from kit n’s strongest damage ability to kit n+1’s, superior punch.

So don’t expect to be confronted with those gyros alot. I don’t think I will use them, beyond trying, on my main char. And when you do, oh joy, you met an opponent who forsake both flexibility & punch for cute steam-punk gizmos. ^^

Mesmer on the other hand, outside of reflects is what? I guess good for portals and that’s it. On trash it can’t summon phantasms as the mob dies before or just after summoning and you didn’t tag it so no loot. Your auto is a lot lower than other classes and so are your other attacks. 10s cool down on your damage shatter so not like you can use it on all trash which leaves you with mantra of pain spamming with sword auto for meaningful damage.

On bosses phantasms are cleaved out and even killed on spawning and that’s without being targeted either completely tanking damage. It can provide support but why bother when a guardian does this and more damage all in zerk without giving up anything and with little to no effort?

There is just no point playing a Mesmer in PvE outside of a record run as all other classes are better and I include ranger and necro in that.

^This. I’ve gotten to the point where I’ve leveled, geared, and used most professions across the various game modes. Mesmer was my fist, and is still my favorite… but with every additional profession I’ve leveled its become more frustrating and more apparent how flawed mesmer’s mechanics are.

As far as Bulwark Gyro is concerned… I think its lame they’ve basically just repurposed two of our utilities and smashed them together instead of coming up with something a little more original. Over-all I dont really care. Super utilities are one of Engi’s ‘things’, let them have it.

Oh, and I just read this post from Colin in another thread-

“While I’ll let the PvP team respond to the other points here, I do want to take a moment and address this:
PvP has steadily grown in population and play hours going on nearly a year now. It’s sky-rocketed since the game went free, and the two weeks before this have been our best weeks literally since the week the game launched. We anticipate this week will be the best week login/play wise PvP has ever had in the history of Gw2.
I don’t want to trivialize your points – and our competitive team has some great reasons why things operate the way they do they’ll lay out and explain in relation to leagues soon: I do want to call out you’re using false population data to support your point.
From an ArenaNet perspective, PvP is the fastest growing part of Gw2 and had more success for us as a business in the last year than it’s had by far in the history of the Guild Wars franchise. Next year is going to be even bigger because of that success.
I’m really proud of the work the team has done and the work our amazing player community who has helped grow competitive PvP just as much as our dev team has and would hate to see that lost in this discussion.
-CJ”

Confirmed my suspicions about where their priorities lie.

More or less, it was always obvious PvP was a main focus of the game. They abandoned all PvE content for over 3 years and very few if any class balance decisions were done with PvE in mind.

/bitter over Harmonious Mantras nerf for PvE

Zenith.7301:

More or less, it was always obvious PvP was a main focus of the game. They abandoned all PvE content for over 3 years and very few if any class balance decisions were done with PvE in mind.

/bitter over Harmonious Mantras nerf for PvE

I wouldn’t say they abandoned PvE. Look at the PvE traits that are taken, a lot of them you can clearly see it was slanted more towards that area of the game. I’m not just talking about mesmer but all classes, there are very conscious efforts to give damage traits out that will feel strong but the requirements are extremely hard to fulfil in PvP or it’s just not a good idea.

I can see the engineer switching some of these out and in (right tool for the job and all) depending on circumstances but I’ll be honest I don’t see it being much value in PvE as a trait line. Maybe if the hammer has a good coefficient it might make the GM worth picking over tools but I doubt it will prove better than SD for damage and tools for utility. I mean, engineer already has a lot of everything they need, there’s a reason I take it to 50 fractals, it’s because it pumps out so much utility at little cost.

They didn’t abandon PvE, they abandoned dungeons. I believe raids will make use of many of our “used-to-be-PvP-only” utilities.

Someone suggested iDefender proccing protection: I did consider it, but we have already many ways to get protection. But I do agree that it will be better if he had a usual phantasm HP but only reduced by half the damage (i.e. not taking it).

The gyro is clearly a better version of both iDefender and feedback (both of them mostly because of the positioning). But I think the devs have improved quite a lot in recent times and once HoT will be up and running (or maybe even before) the core skills/weapons will see a lot of fixes to make them to the same level as the new ones.

Silverkey.2078:

They didn’t abandon PvE, they abandoned dungeons. I believe raids will make use of many of our “used-to-be-PvP-only” utilities.

Someone suggested iDefender proccing protection: I did consider it, but we have already many ways to get protection. But I do agree that it will be better if he had a usual phantasm HP but only reduced by half the damage (i.e. not taking it).

The gyro is clearly a better version of both iDefender and feedback (both of them mostly because of the positioning). But I think the devs have improved quite a lot in recent times and once HoT will be up and running (or maybe even before) the core skills/weapons will see a lot of fixes to make them to the same level as the new ones.

For 3 years our illusions, and by extension our utility and damage source, have been AoE/cleave fodder with no fixes in the horizon for AoE/cleave avoidance/immunity in PvE.

I mean, it already exists with Subject Alpha, the aoe does not murder your phantasms and illusions, so I don’t understand why they can’t extend that rule to all bosses/pve mobs that cleave on autoattacks and AoE.

Zenith.7301:

For 3 years our illusions, and by extension our utility and damage source, have been AoE/cleave fodder with no fixes in the horizon for AoE/cleave avoidance/immunity in PvE.

I mean, it already exists with Subject Alpha, the aoe does not murder your phantasms and illusions, so I don’t understand why they can’t extend that rule to all bosses/pve mobs that cleave on autoattacks and AoE.

Well that is a different problem. I was mainly addressing your point regarding PvE vs PvP balance. The problem of illusions dying at the first AOE is also a PvP problem (PvP AOE can be less deadly, but PvP illusions have less HP). There is a reason why phantasms builds hardly exist in PvP…

I would not be surprised if mesmers end up shattering way more in raids… Rangers are complaining that their pet dies too fast while it is 30-40% of their DPS. Things are worse for phantasms mesmers since phantasms are more than 50% of our DPS, the only advantage being that we can recast them somewhat more easily than rangers pet swap.

Maybe “Empowered Illusions” should be a GM in domination with “Phantasms deal 20% more damage and half twice the HP”. The competition with the other GM preventing having both high shatter DPS and high illusion survivability.

Twice the HP on phantasms means nothing. Ranger jaguars have 24k hp and they still melt to a boss autoattack or two in fractal 50.

The solution is never more HP, because the kind of damage bosses deal out is in the 10-20k range swings.

You would have to raise HP so high, that then against a single target the illusion could tank as well as a bear/earth elemental.

What’s more, even if you set the HP to something like 50-60k, it’d still melt in dynamic events and boss aoe spam and WvW aoe spam, because the amount of aoe bombing going out far exceeds these numbers.

Illusions need AoE avoidance, period.

I’m also not a fan of needing traits to fix core class mechanics, for the same reason I hate chronophantasma.

Zenith.7301:

Twice the HP on phantasms means nothing. Ranger jaguars have 24k hp and they still melt to a boss autoattack or two in fractal 50.

The solution is never more HP, because the kind of damage bosses deal out is in the 10-20k range swings.

You would have to raise HP so high, that then against a single target the illusion could tank as well as a bear/earth elemental.

What’s more, even if you set the HP to something like 50-60k, it’d still melt in dynamic events and boss aoe spam and WvW aoe spam, because the amount of aoe bombing going out far exceeds these numbers.

Illusions need AoE avoidance, period.

I’m also not a fan of needing traits to fix core class mechanics, for the same reason I hate chronophantasma.

Well, point taken. I think it is clear that mesmer’s class mechanics was a bad idea… and hard to fix.
I put it as a trait because in terms of PvP, you want illusions to be killable with AOE (that is the counter), especially in a shatter build. But to make sure phantasms build work, the phantasms need to be killable but not “instant-death”. I think necro’s minions are a good example because minion master IS viable (it is actually one of necro’s best builds in PvP) and the key is that they do die fairly easily, but live long enough to matter. Their HP is around 7-10k (that’s more than iDefender in PvP since this is the subject of this thread…).

So they key is that you don’t want that for shatter but you want that for phantasm builds, so putting both traits in competition makes great sense.

In PvE, the situation is clearly different because enemies are AOE which are way over the top. But at the same time, you do want counter. It is “unfair” to have a class having half of its DPS unkillable by enemies because you can just kite and still do decent damage. I understand that currently this is the opposite, but you probably agree that both solutions are unperfect. Honestly, I don’t know what is the right way to fix things…

Kiting and having a pet do half the damage while you do very little is hardly a scenario people will want in PvE.

Illusions should have high if not 100% uptime in PvE if we’re going to have our damage based around all of them being alive. It’s that simple.

Just like with ranger, if our damage is balanced around the presence of a pet, our pet needs to be alive all the time because otherwise we’re inferior to the other classes.

By the way, minions may sorta function in spvp, but that’s where it ends. They’re garbage in WvW team fights, and they’re garbage in PvE.

In fact, GW2 is one of the worst MMO’s for pet based classes in the industry. Look around. How many spirit weapon guardians, turret engineers, rangers, minion necromancers, and mesmers do you see in WvW team fights and PvE?

That’s right, very few, because this game completely guts companions. Companions in this game don’t scale with runes or sigils, or food effects, or ascended gear. The mesmer is as close as it gets, borrowing stats from the mesmer, but it doesn’t benefit from % damage bonus traits to the mesmer or other boosts. The rest of the classes have minions/companions so kitten they can’t even use them in most game formats.

tobascodagama.2961:

Putting the Bulwark Gyro and iDefender into their respective class contexts does NOT make iDefender look any better, and you’re a kitten fool if you think it does.

Engineer context: Extremely good DPS and incredibly strong team support, in the same build.

I stopped there. This isn’t about idefender anymore. It is a generalized complaint that engineers aren’t as good as mesmers. You’re changing the subject.

Zenith.7301:

Kiting and having a pet do half the damage while you do very little is hardly a scenario people will want in PvE.

If you’re a good PvE-er of course not. But assume a beginner who just puts its minions and then kite, being able to complete a content without any effort. If I understand well, hunters in WoW used to be considered “broken” because of how easy it was to solo stuff thanks to their pet (I did not play WoW, this is just a result of me looking for 30s on google).

Illusions should have high if not 100% uptime in PvE if we’re going to have our damage based around all of them being alive. It’s that simple.

Just like with ranger, if our damage is balanced around the presence of a pet, our pet needs to be alive all the time because otherwise we’re inferior to the other classes.

You have to understand that while it seems we argue, I perfectly agree with you on that point. Minions could have a niche as a “easy to pick up” build for new players, for them to learn the core mechanics of the game before going to a more efficient (but more difficult) build. That’s how my gf started gw2 (necro) and that was instrumental in her staying in the game. Spirit weapons and others do not really fulfill that role either, I actually think only minion master (and maybe turret engineer) are viable enough to be that “first build”. MM still work in higher tier because minions have independent stats, so the necro can focus on supporting its minions while the minions focus on damage, allowing a high level playing to boost the build efficiency.

For mesmers and rangers unfortunately, there is no choice, they depend on illusions/pets. So “working for beginners” is not enough. Also mesmers cannot use the same trick as MM, because if they invest in toughness + healing, their phantasms just hit like wet nuddles (I know, I played cleric mesmer!). And still, we do not want to have to spec defensively just to allow our illusions to live, we want build diversity!

Well I realize that I write a lot to add nothing. I don’t know what would fix minions. I have the feeling that “immune to AOE” is not ideal, though it will definitely fix a lot of problems. Since most of our phantasm are ranged in some way, I guess one could also ask the AI programmer to make them avoid (or evade) deadly AOEs and cleaves (which would not work with most ranger pets since they are mostly melee), but if they do that, they may as well make them immune…

Just remove illusions off the aggro table and give them aoe avoidance in PvE (immunity to aoe/cleaves).

For WvW give illusions 70-80% aoe resistance instead. If you want to dispel illusions, you should single target them, not do a single greatsword swing that gets rid of clones immediately let alone grenade throws.

Zenith.7301:

Just remove illusions off the aggro table and give them aoe avoidance in PvE (immunity to aoe/cleaves).

But meh, at that point I’d just remove them entirely. They’re not really a sensible element of gameplay any more then, are they?

Zenith.7301:

Just remove illusions off the aggro table and give them aoe avoidance in PvE (immunity to aoe/cleaves).

For WvW give illusions 70-80% aoe resistance instead. If you want to dispel illusions, you should single target them, not do a single greatsword swing that gets rid of clones immediately let alone grenade throws.

They don’t have to remove them from the aggro table just do something like this with phantasms/clones/minions/turrets/pets/anything I missed. Instead of half make it take 0 damage and jobs done. If you sit and let the companions do the work they get aggro and get killed if you’re keeping aggro or teammates are then they stay up a lot more.

This would then make iDefender slightly better but still it taking 50% of the damage makes it die very quickly. Perhaps a rework to something like the 55 monk Protective Spirit would be better where it limits damage to 10% of your max health but takes that damage.

Take a warrior at 20k health, 10% would be 2k, iDefender health is 12k so that’s 6 hits it can take, but on squishies it would help them live a lot longer as they have just shy of 12k health in zerker. It would not be able to tank the damage for the whole team and make them live forever as essentially them being hit by 2 AoEs would kill the defender but it would help with the odd mistake.

I think the easiest solution would be a damage cap. Make is so pets cannot take more than about 1.5k damage from a single blow. That would solve most of problems in PvE where attacks are massive, single hit, AoE cleaves. Then they could go a step farther and add a time element to that like… Pets cannot take more than 1.5k dmg/sec. With that adjustment (most) Phantasms would be able to get at least one attack off in WvW before getting killed. Kitten! you’d even be able to throw out a zerker into a zerg and mindwrack it after its cleave if you were quick.

Edit: I was only thinking about Illusions when i wrote that… would probably have to adjust those numbers for other professions’ pets.

If you were going to do a damage cap, I think it would have to be percentage-based. Somewhere from 25-50% max pet health per attack.

That said, I think the damage reduction specifically against cleaves and AoE is really the right way to go. It should always be possible to outplay a pet class in PvP by specifically targeting their pets.

Levetty.1279:

Because the Mesmer moto is twice the work for half the results.

wasn’t the Mesmer Motto: “If it is not broken, shatter it!”?

It’s kinda funny how mesmers are complaining about engineer gyros given how engineer forums are ablaze over how bad gyros are.

Like how CDs start after it is destroyed/time runs out. Making our heal 31-44s CD bulwark 31-45 or so and so on.

I will happily trade gyros for some of your skills xD

Xyonon.3987:

As a person who loves and enjoys both, engi and mesmer, equally, I also agree that solo skills should be better than allrounders. Or that is to say:

• The Defender should ALWAYS outshine the Bulwark.
• The Feedback should also ALWAYS outshine the Defense Field (toolbelt).
• The Bulwark AND it’s toolbelt should be equal to the Defender OR Feedback.

TL:DR version, no it should not. Classes need to be balanced as a whole, not a skill per skill basis that means nothing.

Longer version

Different classes work differently. Engineer is pigeonholed into kits with which his power grows. Elite specs and the entire class should not be based around the idea of always having kits because that is not our class mechanic. So if we don;t take kits, we are left with a single weapon with no weapon swap. That’s where the problem is. With kits some skills may be too strong, without kits they are too weak.

Such it is with gyros. Scrapper with gyros is bad. Simple. Scrapper with 1-2 gyros tops and some kits will probably be good.

Bulwark is better maybe in its simple form but iDefender has 25s CD vs bulwarks 30-kitten CD since it starts after it is destroyed/runs out of time. It will also die instantly in bigger fights when absorbing dmg from more targets.

3s of block on 20s CD from toolkit > bulwark gyro :P

I actually like Bulwark Gyro’s Toolbelt skill 10x more than bulwark gyro itself.\\

You are also convieniently setting this up in mesmer’s favour. Why? Because why should Bulwark + toolbelt be equal to Defender? WHY? Aren’t you forgetting something ? TOOLBELT is our class mechanics, same kittenter are for you. Why do you think it’s fair for bulwark + our class mechanic to be equal to just your skill without taking into account your class mechanic? If anything it should be skill + class mechanic vs skill + class mechanic so bulwark + toolbelt vs defender + shatters. You also have weapon swap which we don’t have unless we sacrifice u-slot for kit and then we can;t have all the gyros too. So yeah, I disagree 100% with you on how it should be balanced.

Like I’ve said, professions are balanced as a whole and not as small pieces.

Maybe it would be a good idea to merge pDefender and pDisenchanter. Make it a new version with a 50% damage reduction and condition cleanse (not the boon removal) so it becomes a solid option for support.

I wouldn’t mind merging Decoy and Mirror Images too… I think we can have better options for our illusion utilities.

Pollux.3247:

Maybe it would be a good idea to merge pDefender and pDisenchanter. Make it a new version with a 50% damage reduction and condition cleanse (not the boon removal) so it becomes a solid option for support.

I wouldn’t mind merging Decoy and Mirror Images too… I think we can have better options for our illusion utilities.

Eh, no. The boon stripping is the main reason to use iDisenchanter for me, not the very unreliable condition cleansing.

They’re fine as they are, they just need their cast times reduced (and iDefender should probably just give Protection instead of the really gimmicky damage sharing concept).

Embolism.8106:

Eh, no. The boon stripping is the main reason to use iDisenchanter for me, not the very unreliable condition cleansing.

agree!

They’re fine as they are, they just need their cast times reduced (and iDefender should probably just give Protection instead of the really gimmicky damage sharing concept).

disagree! Protection is very easy to have as a mesmer. Being able to add damage reduction ON TOP of protection is what could make this phantasm useful. Just remove the part where he absorbs half the damage even if this means lower HP. Also reduce the stupid cast time.

Oh look at the nice green grass over there! That’s where I want to live!

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I think the Scrapper sounds like fun and I’m glad Engineers have something to look forward to with HoT even if some/many don’t think they like their new shinies.

I think we have plenty to look forward to as well, and as much as I can agree that the utility that summons an iDefender is in great need of improvement, I fail to see any relevance in comparisons with the Gyros.

The iDefender utility is one of many poor Mesmer utilities, and one of many more useless utilities across the game. Yes, it needs to be boosted. This has far less to do with the iDefender itself, and absolutely nothing to do with Gyros or Engineers for that matter.

I will definitely be trying out the Scrapper, which is a rare thing for me to get interested in any other profession besides Mesmer.

Killyox.3950:

It’s kinda funny how mesmers are complaining about engineer gyros given how engineer forums are ablaze over how bad gyros are.

Thats whats so funny, its bad and Engies have better utilities but its still better then iDefender.

Levetty.1279:

Thats whats so funny, its bad and Engies have better utilities but its still better then iDefender.

Ofc, most minipets are better than the iDefender ,so that’s not saying a whole lot. :P

It’s clear enough that Scrapper is a phantasm Mesmer ala’ Steampunk. There are days when this stuff just makes me sick.

I think people would do well to remember that Gyros have significant CDs that, unlike Illusions, don’t start until the Gyro’s destroyed.

Yeah the more I saw actual footage of the Scrapper, the more I thought it certainly looked neat, but not amazing either. Now I realize there are going to be a lot better Scrapper builds then what we saw in the PoI vids, but nothing I saw made me think I’ll be facing anything as tough as say a d/d Elementalist is now.

On the other hand, looking at the Engie forums just makes me laugh and cry at the same time. So many people denouncing stuff they haven’t played, proclaiming the end of the Rifle, useless Gyros, etc. etc. etc. Really sad. I have to say I’m glad Mesmers were much more excited and positive about Chronomancy when it was first revealed, and considering where Engineers currently are I find it a bit hard to believe them complaining about some really powerful stuff coming their way. (but yes, if you’re not into melee/support on your Engie, then you may well choose to forego the Scrapper. That’s kinda the idea of Elite specs; provide new alternative play styles, not totally replace all older ones!)

Embolism.8106:

I think people would do well to remember that Gyros have significant CDs that, unlike Illusions, don’t start until the Gyro’s destroyed.

Wich is most likely gonna change – this is the biggest flaw in the whole gyro concept. Same goes for mantras – maybe this will finally happen …

Embolism.8106:

Pollux.3247:

Maybe it would be a good idea to merge pDefender and pDisenchanter. Make it a new version with a 50% damage reduction and condition cleanse (not the boon removal) so it becomes a solid option for support.

I wouldn’t mind merging Decoy and Mirror Images too… I think we can have better options for our illusion utilities.

Eh, no. The boon stripping is the main reason to use iDisenchanter for me, not the very unreliable condition cleansing.

They’re fine as they are, they just need their cast times reduced (and iDefender should probably just give Protection instead of the really gimmicky damage sharing concept).

Well, actually, if they merged pDisenchanter and pDefender there would be room for another phantasm with that. They could add one that strips boons from foes and give quickness/fury/whatever to allies so we could have a clear defensive option and an offensive one.

Or you know they could just change iDefender to stack?

87.5 percent damage reduction. Which hops to 95.875 with protection.

edit:
or to 99.95359375 % damage reduction when you add in
the fact you have 3 illusions up 9%
bulwark gyro 50%
ram mastery 50%
revenant elite 50%
frost aura 10%

Daniel Handler.4816:

Or you know they could just change iDefender to stack?

87.5 percent damage reduction. Which hops to 95.875 with protection.

It might stack. The icon is different.

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Or you know they could just change iDefender to stack?

87.5 percent damage reduction. Which hops to 95.875 with protection.

It might stack. The icon is different.

Tested it again.

They don’t stack. It is still broken. Two or more iDefenders do absolutely nothing. No damage is reduced after that threshold.

Its hard to argue the comparative merit of iDefender versus Bulwark, when iDefender is bugged.

Daniel Handler.4816:

Fay.2357:

Daniel Handler.4816:

Or you know they could just change iDefender to stack?

87.5 percent damage reduction. Which hops to 95.875 with protection.

It might stack. The icon is different.

Tested it again.

They don’t stack. It is still broken. Two or more iDefenders do absolutely nothing. No damage is reduced after that threshold.

Its hard to argue the comparative merit of iDefender versus Bulwark, when iDefender is bugged.

Oh, oh, I thought you meant iDefender stacking with the gyro, I misunderstood.

Well it’s not surprising. The way the iDefender works is that it attacks often (3 or 5s I think) and on each attack gives a buff. The buff does not stack, but as a counterpart, I believe the buff still works after the defender is dead (although it is a short duration).

I doubt they’re gonna let them stack. It would be ripe for exploit in PvE against a boss attack that’s meant to wipe you if you don’t meet the mechanic check, but somehow is nullified by clever use of stacking defenses.

We don’t need more of that in PvE. Communal Defenses in Guardians and Ice bow freeze need the nerfhammer if anything.

Zenith.7301:

I doubt they’re gonna let them stack. It would be ripe for exploit in PvE against a boss attack that’s meant to wipe you if you don’t meet the mechanic check, but somehow is nullified by clever use of stacking defenses.

We don’t need more of that in PvE. Communal Defenses in Guardians and Ice bow freeze need the nerfhammer if anything.

Last I checked when they intend for something to kill you like that they make it do a few million damage and no amount of idefender and gyro stacking would help.

Ice bow is getting nerfed hard with break bars.