Guild Wars 2

So with the release of all the specialization details for these two professions, I created a video looking at each of the professions tools and possible combo tactics you can have with them. I don’t go into too much detail but I do talk briefly about what I think you’d be able to do with the new specs in different categories. The categories are as follows; Weapons, Utilities, New Core Mechanic.

Now I want to pose the question to you guys. Who do you think can get the most out of their new specialization abilities based on the above categories?

I personally think the Chronomancer wins out in the possibilities that have been unlocked by the new trait line, the weapon and the wells but I’d like to get all your cynical and objective opinions. I’ll do a mirror topic on the guardian side as well just to see what they say if you’re interested in that.

Anyway, let me know your thoughts!

I see you posted this thread in the Guardian subforums as well.

Concerning your topic:
Mesmers will probably say: Guardians gained the most.
Guardians will probably say: Mesmers gained the most.

:D

Me personally, I feel like while Guardians got more on paper (skills, class mechanics), Chronomancer traits are more meaningful to the class as a whole. I might add that I haven’t played on my Guardian for a while, and Mesmer was/is still my main class since beta. There’s a lot of potential in the new traits, Kudos to Robert.

More weapon skills, changes to the class mechanic, hard hitting utilities with the chance at a condi build, perma cripple on auto attack, lots of AoE, lots of control, 1200 range maul that peirces and can be traited for stab, knockback every 7 secs, high vuln uptimes, lots of damage modifiers.

Hmmmmmm…..

not even reading posts.

Chronomancer, by a kittening far

tetrodoxin.2134:

I see you posted this thread in the Guardian subforums as well.

Concerning your topic:
Mesmers will probably say: Guardians gained the most.
Guardians will probably say: Mesmers gained the most.

:D

Me personally, I feel like while Guardians got more on paper (skills, class mechanics), Chronomancer traits are more meaningful to the class as a whole. I might add that I haven’t played on my Guardian for a while, and Mesmer was/is still my main class since beta. There’s a lot of potential in the new traits, Kudos to Robert.

This is what I think as well. Whilst the Guardian has more on paper, the Chronomancer has more substance to it. The guardian traits seem great if you take them on a spreadsheet but they don’t combo into any further builds. It feels very much like how I felt when I started playing the Engie, nothing makes sense, everything is just damage modifiers and barely related effects.

There might be more potential there for the Guardian but I just don’t see it yet.

I want to say Mesmer, and im way more excited for Chronomancer, but Guardian Medi/Lbow is going to be unreal in pvp. as for PVE I dont think theres really anything you can do to make Mesmer better than Guardian. Its going to be interesting though, the theory crafting for Chrono is amazing

Azure.8670:

I want to say Mesmer, and im way more excited for Chronomancer, but Guardian Medi/Lbow is going to be unreal in pvp. as for PVE I dont think theres really anything you can do to make Mesmer better than Guardian. Its going to be interesting though, the theory crafting for Chrono is amazing

I feel there’s one thing might edge DH out over the Chrono and I think it’s the virtues. Being able to combo the new mechanics of your virtues with other aspects of your class gives more value to the DH virtues than the Chrono’s Time Splitter ability. Simply due to the fact that it generates more ideas for builds.

Azure.8670:

I want to say Mesmer, and im way more excited for Chronomancer, but Guardian Medi/Lbow is going to be unreal in pvp. as for PVE I dont think theres really anything you can do to make Mesmer better than Guardian. Its going to be interesting though, the theory crafting for Chrono is amazing

Be really good at portal tricks. Mesmers can shave quite a bit of time if they know what they’re doing.

Guardian has always been in a solid position in the meta for all game modes (PvE,, sPvP, WvW).

Mesmer has occassionally inched their way into these games modes via utility … Veilbot, Portal, Boon Stripping … with the few things that were truly meta-changing getting nerfed (ex: Glamour builds)

Regardless of which is more/less/equal power … I hope it changes up the meta so everyone is much closer on the power curve so that we can stop having so many classes excluded from the meta while the same 3 continue to be dominant in it (Guard/Ele/War).

Guardian get a new way to make builds: condition damage. They’ve never been able to play other builds than shout support or meditation dps. In that way the DH will give much more to the class than the Chrono do. But DH trait can’t combo with builds out of traps, lonbow and conditions.
Chronomancer will obtain a large amount of powerfull skills and traits that can combo with any other existent build and make news.
Just say: +25% speed passive with -25% cripple/chill/immobility duration, 30% critical rate free against slowed targets and every 3 critical hit you slow the enemy for 3 sec. If you add Alacrity and wells that deal high damage or any other kind of weapon/utility you want to play because everything can be used with these traits you obtain a class that can win every 1vs1 so easy that no one will want to fight a mesmer. And mesmer’s already a very good class, one of the best for pvp in terms of damage and survavibility; with that you can simply be unkillable.

Then, you obtain:
- Guardians that obtain finally a new way to fight and be good at this
- Mesmers that obtain a way to be god in 1vs1 and mix they’re new traits with every kind of build they want to play.

What is the point of this thread? This will be another source of complaints and baseless comparisons.

I will assure you if this thread foes out hand, this will be yet another source of unnecessary mesmer nerfs in the future.

If the traits remains like that, there will be a nerf in the future at 100%

Silv.9207:

If the traits remains like that, there will be a nerf in the future at 100%

The devs already mentioned numerous times that the numbers are subject to change

Chronomancer got more defining changes.

Chrono does more for the mesmer than dragon hunter does for guardians.

But mesmers need it more. Guardians are already lynchpins of their team in all game modes. Even if DH ends up being only suitable for a small niche role or a trait line for just-for-funsies builds, the profession as a whole would be doing fine.

Silv.9207:

Guardian get a new way to make builds: condition damage. They’ve never been able to play other builds than shout support or meditation dps. In that way the DH will give much more to the class than the Chrono do. But DH trait can’t combo with builds out of traps, lonbow and conditions.
Chronomancer will obtain a large amount of powerfull skills and traits that can combo with any other existent build and make news.
Just say: +25% speed passive with -25% cripple/chill/immobility duration, 30% critical rate free against slowed targets and every 3 critical hit you slow the enemy for 3 sec. If you add Alacrity and wells that deal high damage or any other kind of weapon/utility you want to play because everything can be used with these traits you obtain a class that can win every 1vs1 so easy that no one will want to fight a mesmer. And mesmer’s already a very good class, one of the best for pvp in terms of damage and survavibility; with that you can simply be unkillable.

Then, you obtain:
- Guardians that obtain finally a new way to fight and be good at this
- Mesmers that obtain a way to be god in 1vs1 and mix they’re new traits with every kind of build they want to play.

Guardians have been able to make condi builds since the Kindled Zeal and then Amplified Wrath but the popular belief is that they can’t. The new specialization will only help in improving the damage of the spec but not change the underlying problem which is; cover conditions.

This is a weakness the Guardian doesn’t need to be rid of because conditions are really not their department. Whilst they can stack a mean burn, they should always be deficient when it comes to covering it up with stuff.

The traps may not help simply because then you lose out on meditations and other utilities that could really help your situation. The only trap that could work is the Elite trap because of it’s CD which works well when using Krait runes.

StickerHappy.8052:

What is the point of this thread? This will be another source of complaints and baseless comparisons.

I will assure you if this thread foes out hand, this will be yet another source of unnecessary mesmer nerfs in the future.

You’re wearing tight pants today aren’t you?

Dirame.8521:

StickerHappy.8052:

What is the point of this thread? This will be another source of complaints and baseless comparisons.

I will assure you if this thread foes out hand, this will be yet another source of unnecessary mesmer nerfs in the future.

You’re wearing tight pants today aren’t you?

Im not, im just being careful, i dont wanna play the blame game if we get nerfs.

StickerHappy.8052:

Dirame.8521:

StickerHappy.8052:

What is the point of this thread? This will be another source of complaints and baseless comparisons.

I will assure you if this thread foes out hand, this will be yet another source of unnecessary mesmer nerfs in the future.

You’re wearing tight pants today aren’t you?

Im not, im just being careful, i dont wanna play the blame game if we get nerfs.

Well, if the class is nerfed you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference because you didn’t know about it. hehehehehehehe!

Step #1: Ele / War / Guard cease to be the meta somewhere
Step #2: Nerf-hammer the offending class(es) responsible.

Hopefully I’m wrong, but that’s the history so far … so don’t worry about talking about how great something is … just don’t talk about how it might possibly tarnish one of those three class(es)’ position at the top of the meta.

Guardians got traps, what more to say….look at trappers like thiefs and rangers, they died before dinosaurs.

Ragnarox.9601:

Guardians got traps, what more to say….look at trappers like thiefs and rangers, they died before dinosaurs.

Cele trapper ranger in wvw is quite popular, traps are also used in pvp for rangers, so…say what?

<sarcasm> And traps won’t at all be useful in the new Borderlands with all their new choke points and narrow pathways </sarcasm>

Stupid post was stupid … /surprise

Sebrent.3625:

Step #1: Ele / War / Guard cease to be the meta somewhere
Step #2: Nerf-hammer the offending class(es) responsible.

Hopefully I’m wrong, but that’s the history so far … so don’t worry about talking about how great something is … just don’t talk about how it might possibly tarnish one of those three class(es)’ position at the top of the meta.

This is basically true. I was going to ask why Engi wasnt there as well but remembered they arent optimal for wvw.

carry on

Dirame.8521:

Now I want to pose the question to you guys. Who do you think can get the most out of their new specialization abilities based on the above categories?

A pretty difficult question since – as Jon reinstated – numbers are to change.

Generally, I feel that ANet did a great job on both specializations when it comes to filling ‘holes’ within the classes. But if you want to break it down to certain specifics…

Weapon
Guardian > Chronomancer.

The weapon skills on both weapons are interesting and probably equally powerful. However, Guardians needed a proper ranged weapon. Mesmers didn’t need another OH.

Utilities
Guardian > Chronomancer.

In it’s current state, the new Traps simply outperform the new Wells. Chronomancers get extra points for their unique buff but this won’t change the fact that their new area effects are inferior in the damage department. And that’s a huge part of their role.

Core Mechanic
Guardian > Chronomancer.

The new F5 is nice and all but it seems like it being very situational plus it is easy to counter. It might enable us to pull off some nice tricks but it won’t help against, for example, Thieves most of the time. Guardians had a greater change of their utilities. F1 offers way more active play. The gap closer on F2 is awesome although people complain about its support being ‘nerfed’. And I love love love the new F3.

So… you might think I think DH won. But nope. Because:

Traits and trait rework
Mesmer >>> Guardian

The rework of the old Mesmer traits are way better than most of the Guardian rework. For personally it comes down to a more precise vision and focussing on specific playstyles plus making key traits baseline to open up build diversity. All Mesmer traitlines cater either shatter, phantasm, interrupt and lockdown whereas power and condi are represented almost equally. Guardians saw some changes but to a lesser extent. Part of it might be due to them already being in a better position. However, I still see the need for some adjustments (Retaliation acces / Radiant Retaliation, Shield plus trait, Virtues being overcrowded with Virtue traits yadda yadda).

When it comes to the … cough … … -hunter the traits are very interesting. But I miss synergies with existing traitlines and weapons. Many traits are too specific. For example, there is one trait for Virtues per tier only affecting one a certain Virtue. We already got that in Virtues. It overemphasizes specific skills. Why not make Soaring Devastation additionally apply a 2s Cripple to Leaps (GS#3 and H#2) to create synergies? Why are there two traits solely affecting the LB? Make Hunter’s Determination the LB trait and beef it up with +x Toughness per nearby foe while whielding a LB or something which doesn’t only improve one skill. Make Heavy Light also affect Scepter AA to create synergies. Defender’s Dogma… what the…? It quite obviously caters F3 and Fragmentation of Faith but this makes it way too conditonal to be a Minor. It could be incorporated into Bulwark and should be replaced (maybe ‘Recieve x% less damage from crippled foes’?). Pure of Sight… well… so they want us to stay at least 600 units away but we would have to stay closer than 900 so our F1 active doesn’t expire? Weird. And Hunter’s Fortification – or as I’d call it – OH Shield’s Demise. No need to explain that one…

Does this add up to a tie between Chronomancer and DH?

As I explained in the Warrior forums …

• Power = 9 … Ele / Guard / Warrior … dominating all metas
• Power = 7 … Engineer / Thief … solid in some metas but not all.
• Power = 5 … Mesmer / Ranger / Necro … barely part of one meta at best (Mesmer/Necro) … or none at all (Ranger)

If ArenaNet wants things to be balanced, they will shoot for a given power level … let’s say 10.

That means ArenaNet would need to:

• +1 to Warrior / Ele / Guard … 9 + 1 = 10
• +3 to Engineer / Thief … 7 + 3 = 10
• +5 to Mesmer / Ranger / Necro … 5 + 5 = 10

Now, these numbers are arbitrary and balance is more difficult than this … but from a high level, this is how it should be happening … possibly / likely different power increases per class per game mode as each performs better/worse in each one … except the top 3 classes who have always been top …

i think chronomancer is the one gaining the most even though gaining is kinda the wrong word. i think it is the long needed changes for mes we have been begging for months now. many traits sound like they help in teamfights which mes needs badly. i was ready to shelve my mes for good after 4k hours of play with her. i mainly played my necro in wvw until i heard the proposed changes and chronomancer and now i cant stop playing my mes as i have hope.

guardian was well off before and a popular pick in all game modes. mes seems to get lots of improvement that will bring them back and this is needed. as much as I wanted to like the mes after the massive nerfbats, i just felt like the mesmer lacked traits and skills that made us unique (mainly in wvw) because all roles were already filled by another class:

Zergfights :GWEN meta
backline ganks: thief, engi, ranger
mes sorta backline sorta zerg as veil and portalbot otherwise roamer

thats how i kinda felt. but the new changes can bring us back. so far things look promising and im sure other classes and specializations will be just as exciting.

Sebrent.3625:

<sarcasm> And traps won’t at all be useful in the new Borderlands with all their new choke points and narrow pathways </sarcasm>

Stupid post was stupid … /surprise

Traps are useful in WvW world but who do you think is going to drop a Gravity Well to remove multiple stacks of stability so that DHunter’s can land their Longbow 5 and Necros can land their wells?

Xaylin.1860:

Weapon
Guardian > Chronomancer.

The weapon skills on both weapons are interesting and probably equally powerful. However, Guardians needed a proper ranged weapon. Mesmers didn’t need another OH.

Mesmers may not have needed another OH but the mechanics they have on their OH are really powerful. Alacrity spamming Phants? Who wouldn’t want that in a team fight. On the other hand, someone spamming cripple on everyone with their bow? I can already spec for that on Ranger, and I don’t even need a bow to do it.

Xaylin.1860:

Utilities
Guardian > Chronomancer.

In it’s current state, the new Traps simply outperform the new Wells. Chronomancers get extra points for their unique buff but this won’t change the fact that their new area effects are inferior in the damage department. And that’s a huge part of their role.

Damage has never been everything. Sure in WvW the reveal trap and Dragon’s Maw will get used a lot and a few people will take more traps because of the Stealth/Super speed on trap use from the trap runes but like I said in the Mesmer forums, who do you think they WvW’ders are going to use to remove multiple stacks of Stab? Or even in PvE, unblockability is actually useful against some mobs and bosses, and in PvP that evade at the end of the well could very well be a life saver or a safe stomp.
Traps are boring in comparison.

Xaylin.1860:

Core Mechanic
Guardian > Chronomancer.

The new F5 is nice and all but it seems like it being very situational plus it is easy to counter. It might enable us to pull off some nice tricks but it won’t help against, for example, Thieves most of the time. Guardians had a greater change of their utilities. F1 offers way more active play. The gap closer on F2 is awesome although people complain about its support being ‘nerfed’. And I love love love the new F3.

So… you might think I think DH won. But nope. Because:

I do believe the Chronomancer core mechanic has a limited amount of uses, mostly due to its short timer and clone requirement. And yes I do agree that, the Guardian beats them in this department because dat shield of Courage though.

Xaylin.1860:

Traits and trait rework
Mesmer >>> Guardian

The rework of the old Mesmer traits are way better than most of the Guardian rework.

Does this add up to a tie between Chronomancer and DH?

For me it adds up to Chronomancer edging out the DH but a lot of the mesmers on the Mesmer forums have stated that the Chrono changes have been sorely needed for the class as the class previously REALLY lacked a lot in the areas that have been improved so maybe their gain is born from that. Personally though, I think they are underselling the weight of what they got, they could just as easily have gotten less than that.

selan.8354:

i think chronomancer is the one gaining the most even though gaining is kinda the wrong word. i think it is the long needed changes for mes we have been begging for months now. many traits sound like they help in teamfights which mes needs badly. i was ready to shelve my mes for good after 4k hours of play with her. i mainly played my necro in wvw until i heard the proposed changes and chronomancer and now i cant stop playing my mes as i have hope.

guardian was well off before and a popular pick in all game modes. mes seems to get lots of improvement that will bring them back and this is needed. as much as I wanted to like the mes after the massive nerfbats, i just felt like the mesmer lacked traits and skills that made us unique (mainly in wvw) because all roles were already filled by another class:

Zergfights :GWEN meta
backline ganks: thief, engi, ranger
mes sorta backline sorta zerg as veil and portalbot otherwise roamer

thats how i kinda felt. but the new changes can bring us back. so far things look promising and im sure other classes and specializations will be just as exciting.

Are you back?

Mesmer wasn’t part of GWEN … Necro was because of AOE from staff and Wells … so Mesmer got Wells and a Shield that both could be useful in GWEN.

Guardian long range sucked because of slow softballs from scepter … so Guardian got a Longbow that is pretty darn nice.

Guardian lacked condition damage outside of burning (and sigils) … now Guardian has more options for conditions

Do you not see what they’ve tried to do with these new Elite Specializations? It seems fairly obvious…

Sebrent.3625:

Mesmer wasn’t part of GWEN … Necro was because of AOE from staff and Wells … so Mesmer got Wells and a Shield that both could be useful in GWEN.

Guardian long range sucked because of slow softballs from scepter … so Guardian got a Longbow that is pretty darn nice.

Guardian lacked condition damage outside of burning (and sigils) … now Guardian has more options for conditions

Do you not see what they’ve tried to do with these new Elite Specializations? It seems fairly obvious…

I know what they are trying to do. But really you’re wrong about the “more condition options” thing. There are still no other conditions the guard can apply outside of Burn, Bleed, cripple, blind and vuln. The cripple won’t favour all scenarios or every build and the access to a lot bleed is stuck on traps which is also not favourable in all situations. That leaves Burn, Blind and vuln, which Guards already had before.

I think what they’ve got now is more utility in team fights with Longbow and their new virtues. The traps…. are a bit meh in my opinion. Elite trap excluded though.

@Dirame:
This is true, but did you see the ceiling for how many stacks of bleeding one trap can stack? Combine that with any of a Guardian’s number of ways to lock a target down and you’ve got something quite mean.

We also can’t ignore that burning is going to be stacking. That is the single largest change that opens the condi door to Guardians.

Sebrent.3625:

@Dirame:
This is true, but did you see the ceiling for how many stacks of bleeding one trap can stack? Combine that with any of a Guardian’s number of ways to lock a target down and you’ve got something quite mean.

We also can’t ignore that burning is going to be stacking. That is the single largest change that opens the condi door to Guardians.

The annoying part about the trap is, it has an arming time so you can’t immobilize someone and then immediately drop a trap on them. There’s a good chance they’d exit before it even starts.
I agree with your observation on burning though. The new virtue of courage will definitely help in that department. Though I still don’t feel it’s something we couldn’t do without.

Dirame.8521:

Mesmers may not have needed another OH but the mechanics they have on their OH are really powerful. Alacrity spamming Phants? Who wouldn’t want that in a team fight.

As I already said: Yes, OH Shield looks powerful. But aside from the Alacrity on the Phantasm it doesn’t offer much new to Mesmers. Focus, Sword and Pistol all got interrupt capabilities. We also get projectile reflection else where. The only thing where OH Shield adds to Mesmers is in zerg situations. However, CC is less potent there.

I think people are overestimating Alacrity and Chronomancy overall. Understandable, all new shinies. But, for example, the Phantasm won’t be that desired in groups. First, it doesn’t provide any damage as iWarden does (PvE). In other situations it is too likely to die (WvW/PvP). Second, you also don’t see anyone using iMage or iDisenchanter for good reasons. The bouncing projectiles aren’t efficient in groups. Those Phantams mainly shine in scenarios with no more than 3 allies/foes limiting their use quite significantly.

Dirame.8521:

Damage has never been everything.

No, it’s not. But it is one of the main reason Mesmers got it. They needed offensive area effects because Illusions fall short in this department. If one of the main components of the new utilities fall short, how is their addition in the class supposed to compete with other classes? In the end, this is the question it comes down to in all game modes. Can class a compete with class b when it comes to activity x?

Dirame.8521:

… but like I said in the Mesmer forums, who do you think they WvW’ders are going to use to remove multiple stacks of Stab?

Mesmers most certainly won’t be the first choice. Sh#5 and WoGravity are our only additions which matter in this regard but both are on high cooldowns. That’s it. Actually, Null Field is better at removing Stability and we don’t see it being used that frequently anyway. Even Shattered Concentration is better despite the downfalls of shatters in large scale fights. Mesmers didn’t really gain too much in this department.

Necros will still be a better option when comparing Wells when it comes to countering Stability. Also Guardians (Wards) and Staff Elementalists (Earth thingie, Static Field) will remain better at peeling Stability than Mesmers. But yeah, Mesmers will suck less in WvW I suppose

Dirame.8521:

Or even in PvE, unblockability is actually useful against some mobs and bosses, and in PvP that evade at the end of the well could very well be a life saver or a safe stomp.
Traps are boring in comparison.

Unblockability is interesting but probably so niche I doubt it will become too important. I’LL admit that overall the new Wells are more interesting than the new Traps. But that doesn’t make them more efficient. Cripple + Weakness is great but nothing others couldn’t provide. Alacrity sounds exciting but the related cooldowns are high. Unblockability, as said before, is very niche. The blurr effect will be almost impossible to time properly since there aren’t too many ‘tells’ which indicate a blurr-worthy attack 3s in advance.

Dirame.8521:

For me it adds up to Chronomancer edging out the DH but a lot of the mesmers on the Mesmer forums have stated that the Chrono changes have been sorely needed for the class as the class previously REALLY lacked a lot in the areas that have been improved so maybe their gain is born from that. Personally though, I think they are underselling the weight of what they got, they could just as easily have gotten less than that.

I got to partly disagree with this assesment.

Mesmers gained more than Guardians. But most of those gains come from trait reworks of existing traitlines and opening up build diversity for existing roles by making traits baseline. Those changes don’t necessarily – or maybe not even at all – arise from the addition of Chronomancy. Chronomancy – as much as I love it so far – solely caters existing build types – shatter, phantasm and interrupt – and therefore doesn’t bring too many novelties to Mesmers. It brings alternatives to existing traits. That’s not a bad thing. However, Dragonhunters will open up truly new roles to Guardians. I don’t see this happening for Mesmers so far.

I don’t think one could really judge which incomming class rework/specialization is better. Mesmers might have received the bigger overall buff but when looking at the current metas this is quite understandable. Guardians on the other hand have been complaining about the lack of change and now they got some. I think both classes can be equally pleased with their previews due to different reasons.

Dirame.8521:

The annoying part about the trap is, it has an arming time so you can’t immobilize someone and then immediately drop a trap on them. There’s a good chance they’d exit before it even starts.

The arming time is important but there will be plenty situations where it doesn’t matter. For example, in large scale WvW you can go all melee with Traps and just drop them to your feets. You will always hit someone. If there are piratekitten shenanigangs going on, drop them somewhere and lure the opposing zerg into them. Won’t work if your zerg is the one pushing, of course.

In PvP, avoiding Traps on cap points isn’t too easy. Trap Rangers aren’t meta but are scary to fight on points. This will also be the case for Trap Guardians. Even if you don’t land all hits you might be able to decap or whatever. Additionally, just imagine how powerful those Traps will be when disposing Skritts and Tengu in Stronghold. You can place them in advance and shred them to pieces.

Xaylin.1860:

As I already said: Yes, OH Shield looks powerful. But aside from the Alacrity on the Phantasm it doesn’t offer much new to Mesmers. Focus, Sword and Pistol all got interrupt capabilities. We also get projectile reflection else where. The only thing where OH Shield adds to Mesmers is in zerg situations. However, CC is less potent there.

CC is not less potent there. It’s probably more prevalent now than it was before and is more than used in Raid vs Raid fights. Guardians jumping in the midst of a zerg, to binding blade a group of people so that Necros can proceed to use their wells to waste them, Elementalists using Static Field and Unsteady Ground to remove stacks of stab so that those very guardians can pull off that combo. CC is not less potent there, quite the opposite from what I hear.

Xaylin.1860:

I think people are overestimating Alacrity and Chronomancy overall. Understandable, all new shinies. But, for example, the Phantasm won’t be that desired in groups. First, it doesn’t provide any damage as iWarden does (PvE). In other situations it is too likely to die (WvW/PvP). Second, you also don’t see anyone using iMage or iDisenchanter for good reasons. The bouncing projectiles aren’t efficient in groups. Those Phantams mainly shine in scenarios with no more than 3 allies/foes limiting their use quite significantly.

Maybe. We’ll see.

Xaylin.1860:

Mesmers most certainly won’t be the first choice. Sh#5 and WoGravity are our only additions which matter in this regard but both are on high cooldowns. That’s it. Actually, Null Field is better at removing Stability and we don’t see it being used that frequently anyway. Even Shattered Concentration is better despite the downfalls of shatters in large scale fights. Mesmers didn’t really gain too much in this department.

WvWers think differently from what I’ve seen. Yeap it’s a long cooldown but if it offers a significant advantage, then it’s more than useful. Why did WvWers use Lich + Wells a lot when Lich has a long cooldown, why did they use Meteor + Tornado when Tornado has a long cooldown? And the planned use of the G-Well isn’t my idea, it came from the mouth of a WvW guild member that I speak to a lot. So at least they are going to give it a try.

Xaylin.1860:

Necros will still be a better option when comparing Wells when it comes to countering Stability. Also Guardians (Wards) and Staff Elementalists (Earth thingie, Static Field) will remain better at peeling Stability than Mesmers. But yeah, Mesmers will suck less in WvW I suppose

The guild member I spoke to also mentioned a combination of Mesmers and Necros. Instead of having Guardians risking their hides to land a pull, they can just toss it from a safe range and grab a bunch of people to nuke with Necro Wells. No one is really getting left out. Everyone and their tools are getting used. Guardians will probably remain due to the new Shield of Courage and their other support abilities.

Xaylin.1860:

Unblockability is interesting but probably so niche I doubt it will become too important. I’LL admit that overall the new Wells are more interesting than the new Traps. But that doesn’t make them more efficient.

What are the traps going to be more efficient at?

Xaylin.1860:

Unblockability, as said before, is very niche. The blurr effect will be almost impossible to time properly since there aren’t too many ‘tells’ which indicate a blurr-worthy attack 3s in advance.

There’s going to a giant clock on the ground. What other tell do you need? Good players will eat that well up like it was a feast after a 40-day fast.

Xaylin.1860:

Mesmers might have received the bigger overall buff but when looking at the current metas this is quite understandable. Guardians on the other hand have been complaining about the lack of change and now they got some. I think both classes can be equally pleased with their previews due to different reasons.

I can’t argue with this assessment. Though my fear is that the bow won’t go very far when people start testing it for viability. Regardless, I can’t wait to start doing silly things with all the classes.

Xaylin.1860:

Dirame.8521:

The annoying part about the trap is, it has an arming time so you can’t immobilize someone and then immediately drop a trap on them. There’s a good chance they’d exit before it even starts.

The arming time is important but there will be plenty situations where it doesn’t matter. For example, in large scale WvW you can go all melee with Traps and just drop them to your feets. You will always hit someone. If there are piratekitten shenanigangs going on, drop them somewhere and lure the opposing zerg into them. Won’t work if your zerg is the one pushing, of course.

In PvP, avoiding Traps on cap points isn’t too easy. Trap Rangers aren’t meta but are scary to fight on points. This will also be the case for Trap Guardians. Even if you don’t land all hits you might be able to decap or whatever. Additionally, just imagine how powerful those Traps will be when disposing Skritts and Tengu in Stronghold. You can place them in advance and shred them to pieces.

In Stronghold I believe Chronos and Dhunters will be equally effective as choke points are aplenty there and Traps and Wells perform well in those situations. Mesmer and Guardian defense combo is definitely quite viable now.

I think its worth repeating that the new Sheild Phantasm is actually pretty bad. Its going to run into the same problems iMage and iDisenchanterr run into. Rolls designed for high phantasm upkeep when now more then ever they are trying to encourage us to shatter, close range bouncing mechanic and slowness of projectile only being effective in very small gorups or 1v1s, pointless in Zergs, low damage while taking up space from other phantasms.

Sheild would be much better off if it dumped the Phantasm and gave us a couple of seconds block like the Warrior Sheild/Ranger GS/old mimic. Or possibly keep the phantasm but just have it spawn on the first hit while we keep blocking.

Dirame.8521:

CC is not less potent there. […]

It has become more potent since the Stability change was implemented but it still remains less potent than in PvP. Because there are way more people reapplying Stability. Therefore, I said it was less potent. It makes more sense to use boon removal.

Necromancers will remain better at removing Stability in WvW while Guardians and Elementalists will remain better at peeling off layers of Stability. Of course, Mesmers could trait and build for both (removing and peeling). The investment could be pretty high, though. But I guess Mesmers are used to being forced into one-trick-pony roles in WvW.

Dirame.8521:

Why did WvWers use Lich + Wells a lot when Lich has a long cooldown, why did they use Meteor + Tornado when Tornado has a long cooldown? And the planned use of the G-Well isn’t my idea, it came from the mouth of a WvW guild member that I speak to a lot. So at least they are going to give it a try.

I think that this comparison is slightly off. Yes, Well of Gravity will be awesome if not countered by Stability. But Mesmers won’t have a way to blow up people with Wells as Necromancers and Elementalists were able to due to the stat boost their Elites provide.

Of course, those synergies were nerfed so we are basically back down to their overall area damage capabilities. Here, Staff Ele > Necro Wells > Mesmer Wells for me personally. I’m fine with that. I just want to raise awareness that Mesmers might not turn out to be so fancy in WvW unless they can actually land interrupts to improve their performance through traits (Power Block, Mistrust).

Dirame.8521:

The guild member I spoke to also mentioned a combination of Mesmers and Necros. Instead of having Guardians risking their hides to land a pull, they can just toss it from a safe range and grab a bunch of people to nuke with Necro Wells. No one is really getting left out. Everyone and their tools are getting used. Guardians will probably remain due to the new Shield of Courage and their other support abilities.

Again, this comparison is slightly off. Guardians will have to use their Traps at melee range and therefore are likely to fill a different role than Mesmers would. Additionally, Guardians are already part of the melee train (people apparently keep neglecting that you don’t have to run LB for Traps and vice versa) so this basically means further diversification. Well-o-Mesmers will compete for the slot of Well-o-Mancers. So far I’m skeptic that Mesmers can make the race here. Again, not a bad thing. But I don’t see GWEM replacing GWEN.

Dirame.8521:

What are the traps going to be more efficient at?

Power and condition area damage.

Dirame.8521:

There’s going to a giant clock on the ground. What other tell do you need? Good players will eat that well up like it was a feast after a 40-day fast.

I think you got that the wrong way…

You will want the blurr to counter massive attacks. That’s a) impossible to properly time in WvW b) unlikely to happen in PvP and c) still very difficult in PvE because mobs don’t have tells for incomming attacks which happen 3s ahead.

You will have some lucky blurrs but there is no reasonable way to actually time the blurr.

Dirame.8521:

I can’t argue with this assessment. Though my fear is that the bow won’t go very far when people start testing it for viability. Regardless, I can’t wait to start doing silly things with all the classes.

That’s true. I feel that Rangers are overly hysterical about Guardian LB.

No matter the numbers I still think it is quite safe to say that LB will offer a valid alternative for ranged combat when comparing it to Scepter/X and Staff. People just need to be aware that it comes with a sacrifice of personal defense in both cases.

Dirame.8521:

In Stronghold I believe Chronos and Dhunters will be equally effective as choke points are aplenty there and Traps and Wells perform well in those situations. Mesmer and Guardian defense combo is definitely quite viable now.

Meeeh, not so sure. Might actually depend on the situation. If the Guardian has a good map awarness he can place his Traps in advance. They will potentially be off cooldown as soon Skritts arrive which puts him at a significant advantage over a Well-o-Mesmer damage and cooldown-wise.

Mesmers will be more flexible when it comes to placing their Wells because of the ground-target. If the Well of Calamity is enough to take out the NPCs they might be fine. Otherwise I see Guardians come out ontop since traited Traps just bring more damage and can be preloaded.

Mesmer gained the most from my perspective. The number of things made baseline, and the significance of the trait consolidation seem to have opened up a lot of possibilities.

I switched from phantasm mesmer to trapper ranger for WvW roaming. I thought I would try out the elite that got traps, but I actually don’t think I would enjoy guardian trapper.

On the other hand, I’m excited about a possible chronomancer phantasm build for mesmer.

overall, i love what mesmer got. i think that spec affects more playstyles/builds for mesmer than DH does for guardian.

that said, i mostly PvE….and in that regard, i’ll go DH everytime. and in wvw, i mostly roam w/ a trapper LB ranger….so again, DH will likely be something i try first over chrono (though chrono is more exciting).

objective guess: mesmer…..personally: guardian….pve power creep-wise/ meta-wise: guardian….dps potential is crazy.

better/more interesting/more elegant class design: chrono by a mile.

While I am no mesmer expert, I feel chronomancer does more to interact with class mechanics, opens up new possibilities, and synergizes incredibly well with current builds. Dragon Hunter has some great traits and damage modifiers, but chronomancer’s ability to pump out even more shatter-fodder, control opponents, and insane time split (which is like an invuln combined with a burst reset) just synergizes so well with shatter and interrupt/control builds. I just have so many dreams of going for double blink-mirrorblade shatters. Time split, when used properly is basically free reign to go HAM with no consequences, which is amazing on burst builds. While wells don’t have me as excited, the ability to add more utility, clones, and damage to an already powerful burst build just seems too tempting.

Chrono has me considering to make mesmer my main. Just the versatility, addition to an already high skill-cap, and burst capability have me so curious.

All that has me wondering how continuum split will work in portal…

You have some good points but sometimes I think to myself, “how did you get that from what I said?”. I’ve done that so many times now I’ve just gotten tired of it so I’m going to stop replying to you after this.

Xaylin.1860:

I think that this comparison is slightly off. Yes, Well of Gravity will be awesome if not countered by Stability. But Mesmers won’t have a way to blow up people with Wells as Necromancers and Elementalists were able to due to the stat boost their Elites provide.

When did I say anything about Mesmers blowing people up with their Wells? All I’ve been saying this whole time is they will be useful to some degree and yet all I keep getting from you is what I consider to be points I wasn’t even trying to make. I was comparing the uses of long cooldowns to gain a benefit, nothing to do with damage, seems like an apt comparison to me.

Xaylin.1860:

Again, this comparison is slightly off. Guardians will have to use their Traps at melee range and therefore are likely to fill a different role than Mesmers would.

When did I argue against the role of Guardians? Did I not also say they will be used for the benefits they bring? Specifically mentioning Shield of courage with regards to that?

Xaylin.1860:

Additionally, Guardians are already part of the melee train (people apparently keep neglecting that you don’t have to run LB for Traps and vice versa) so this basically means further diversification.

The only traps I see players bringing are; Light’s Judgement and Dragon’s Maw. Procession of Blades is a retal hazard and Fragments of Faith is useless.

Traps have an arming time so players will have to set-up to land Dragon’s Maw. Mesmers will be great at helping with that.

Xaylin.1860:

Well-o-Mesmers will compete for the slot of Well-o-Mancers.

They won’t need to. My friend played a mesmer for many years amongst other Necros, Guardians, Eles, and Wars. So maybe your guild is different but at least one guild I know of is willing to run Mesmers alongside their usual GWEN.

Xaylin.1860:

I think you got that the wrong way…

You will want the blurr to counter massive attacks. That’s a) impossible to properly time in WvW b) unlikely to happen in PvP and c) still very difficult in PvE because mobs don’t have tells for incomming attacks which happen 3s ahead.

You will have some lucky blurrs but there is no reasonable way to actually time the blurr.

Sigh. You wait and see.

Weapons Guardian >> Mesmer
I think shield will work mostly in niche situations, specifically some interrupt builds and builds leaning on the side of support over dmg. Don’t get me wrong, it’ll be awesome in those situations, but it doesn’t offer much variability. Guardian ranged weapon is a big +1 for guards, and opens up different options.

Utilities Guardian = Mesmer
With the guardian slightly in the lead. Wells will see play in PvE & WvW content. Traps could potentially see use in all formats.

New Core Mechanic Mesmer > Guardian
Definitely Mesmer. There’s literally so many insane combos you can do with continuum shift. Yes, there’s counter play involved, but that isn’t a bad thing in the slightest bit, because in theory, most skills should have some amount of counter play. I thought 2/3 of the new virtues were somewhat underwhelming.

Traits Mesmer >>> Guardian
Blown away. Guardian now has more condi coverage, but the chronomancer has way more synergy with our core traits.

Chronomancer was hindered by the choice of another OH instead of a MH. Otherwise, Chronomancer definitely gained a lot more. If anything, it’s hard for the guardian to theoretically gain more when they’re already at the top of the food chain.

Dirame.8521:

You have some good points but sometimes I think to myself, “how did you get that from what I said?”. I’ve done that so many times now I’ve just gotten tired of it so I’m going to stop replying to you after this.

Same, same.

Dirame.8521:

When did I say anything about Mesmers blowing people up with their Wells? All I’ve been saying this whole time is they will be useful to some degree and yet all I keep getting from you is what I consider to be points I wasn’t even trying to make. I was comparing the uses of long cooldowns to gain a benefit, nothing to do with damage, seems like an apt comparison to me.

You didn’t say that. I brought it up. That’s what having a conversation is about.

Dealing damage in an area is one of the most significant reasons why Mesmers needed something like Wells (I feel like a parot at this point…). My point being that Mesmer Wells don’t have enough omph in that department to actually make the decision to bring a Mesmer for using them. The DPS – which innately means taking cooldowns into consideration – is too low. And since Mesmer Wells have a delayed final-hit mechanic we also can’t use them to burst that easily.

Dirame.8521:

When did I argue against the role of Guardians? Did I not also say they will be used for the benefits they bring? Specifically mentioning Shield of courage with regards to that?

You did not. Again, that is something I brought up to look at made arguments from another perspective. Because Mesmers will compete with already named professions because they fill the same roles.

Since we are taking about ‘Who gained the most’ I obviously compared this to Guardians who will probably gain more here because their new options are more likely turn out being desirable since no other class can do something comparable so far.

Dirame.8521:

The only traps I see players bringing are; Light’s Judgement and Dragon’s Maw. Procession of Blades is a retal hazard and Fragments of Faith is useless.

Traps have an arming time so players will have to set-up to land Dragon’s Maw. Mesmers will be great at helping with that.

Retaliation will be dangerous but it doesn’t make the Trap less powerful. Nobody said it will come without risk. But when traited it potentially brings a condition burst of 10 Bleeds. If you go for Virtues you can potentially add 10 stacks of Burning ontop of that.

Unless the arming time is longer than 2s it won’t matter in anything but roaming. Don’t forget your opponents can’t see the Traps. The animation of lying them down is recognizable but not that prominent with all the animations flighting around. It’s also extremly difficult to estimate the trigger radius of an already placed – but invisible – Trap in an ongoing fight so your foe will eventuall step into it. If not so, make him do it.

Dirame.8521:

Xaylin.1860:

Well-o-Mesmers will compete for the slot of Well-o-Mancers.

They won’t need to. My friend played a mesmer for many years amongst other Necros, Guardians, Eles, and Wars. So maybe your guild is different but at least one guild I know of is willing to run Mesmers alongside their usual GWEN.

You know why? Because he most likely brought Portal and Veil. Both of which you probably won’t be able to bring when going Wells. I don’t know that guild but most of the time it comes down to one or two Mesmers per blobb. That’s most certainly not very desirable.

Memsers won’t compete with Necromancers. But Well-o-Mesmers will compete with Well-o-Mancers. Their mechanics are way too similar to not be compared to each other. And why would you pick the weaker choice unless you prefer a certain ‘style’ of gameplay or maybe even a color scheme? As a result, my statement is that the Chronomancer might bring less to the table for Mesmers in WvW than most people see at first glance.

StickerHappy.8052:

selan.8354:

i think chronomancer is the one gaining the most even though gaining is kinda the wrong word. i think it is the long needed changes for mes we have been begging for months now. many traits sound like they help in teamfights which mes needs badly. i was ready to shelve my mes for good after 4k hours of play with her. i mainly played my necro in wvw until i heard the proposed changes and chronomancer and now i cant stop playing my mes as i have hope.

guardian was well off before and a popular pick in all game modes. mes seems to get lots of improvement that will bring them back and this is needed. as much as I wanted to like the mes after the massive nerfbats, i just felt like the mesmer lacked traits and skills that made us unique (mainly in wvw) because all roles were already filled by another class:

Zergfights :GWEN meta
backline ganks: thief, engi, ranger
mes sorta backline sorta zerg as veil and portalbot otherwise roamer

thats how i kinda felt. but the new changes can bring us back. so far things look promising and im sure other classes and specializations will be just as exciting.

Are you back?

:-) yes i am and un shelved my mes finally

I know I said I wouldn’t reply but you’ve been so courteous and nice I decided to give you one more reply.

Xaylin.1860:

You didn’t say that. I brought it up. That’s what having a conversation is about.

If you’re going to bring up a different point that doesn’t directly challenge what I’ve said then you should probably do it after you have replied to me directly. Or just make it more obvious by using phrases like; “On another note….,” “Thinking about things from a different angle…” “Another thing I’ve noticed is…..”

Any of those things would have worked wonders.

Mesmer wins just from the Dr. Wells reference!

Haha but nice video man, I can’t say I entirely agree with everything (such as your opinion on Continuum Shift, I believe its the best thing we received because of how versatile it is in all game modes.) but I do respect your opinion.

I’d say in the end Mesmer got more substantial changes, not just with the specialization but with our complete reworks to all traitlines allowing for all sorts of build diversity.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Mesmer wins just from the Dr. Wells reference!

Haha but nice video man, I can’t say I entirely agree with everything (such as your opinion on Continuum Shift, I believe its the best thing we received because of how versatile it is in all game modes.) but I do respect your opinion.

I’d say in the end Mesmer got more substantial changes, not just with the specialization but with our complete reworks to all traitlines allowing for all sorts of build diversity.

Thanks! I appreciate your appreciation! Don’t get me wrong I love the Continuum shift but I feel like the duration and the fact that it requires clones doesn’t serve it all too well.