Guild Wars 2

This has probably been brought up before, but i’ve been wondering what the reasoning is behind giving the chronomancer an additional class mechanic (f5), while other elite specialisations only get their class mechanics replaced (e.g. dragonhunter gets f1-3 replaced, reaper gets f1 replaced,..)

I would think it made way more sense to replace the mesmers f4 skill when opting for chronomancer since it’s just a flat out buff as opped to an alternative playstyle. It seems a little unfair IMO.

Any thoughts?

Maybe because mesmer get’s an off hand weapon, while the elite specs you have mentioned get a 2-h weapon. Not only that but f5 is just 1 extra skill, while the elite specs such as reaper get 4 new skills, though replace the current abilities. If they would’ve reworked f1-f4 I suppose you would have some argument, but as it currently stands it’s fair enough.

^^ I sense a bit of sarcasm there… :P

Technically I guess I agree, but I still think Chronomancy is pretty cool.

I do wonder what that “special extra” is that Anet promised the classes that only get an OH rather than a 2h or MH. I’m guessing they feel it’s already been revealed, but personally I haven’t seen anything that I attributed to that statement. I expected there would be something special about Shield that would make up for the missing button-abilities the 2h get.

Windwalker.7421:

I do wonder what that “special extra” is that Anet promised the classes that only get an OH rather than a 2h or MH. I’m guessing they feel it’s already been revealed, but personally I haven’t seen anything that I attributed to that statement. I expected there would be something special about Shield that would make up for the missing button-abilities the 2h get.

I’m fairly certain alacrity and f5 -which would allow us to do things like put chaos storm on a 15 second cool down and spam it twice- meant to be “just as good.” and in my opinion I prefer continuum shift to three extra skills. Lots more possibilities.

OP is right, unlike other classes which got their mechanics changed, we only got add-ons.

quBit.6437:

This has probably been brought up before, but i’ve been wondering what the reasoning is behind giving the chronomancer an additional class mechanic (f5), while other elite specialisations only get their class mechanics replaced (e.g. dragonhunter gets f1-3 replaced, reaper gets f1 replaced,..)

I would think it made way more sense to replace the mesmers f4 skill when opting for chronomancer since it’s just a flat out buff as opped to an alternative playstyle. It seems a little unfair IMO.

Any thoughts?

Because the other classes’ skills were reworked…

Reaper gets new f1 + 5 new shroud skills.
Dragonhunter get 3 new profession skills.
Chronomancer gets 1 new profession skill.

I’m pretty happy with the Chronomancer.

Wells fill a much-needed hole in our kitten nal. Shield looks like a solid addition to our weapon set. Quickness is very powerful and combines particularly well with some of our new “on hit/crit” traits. Alacrity also looks fantastic and may contribute a large amount of recharge reduction on our skills.

I’m ok with the increased “skills available per minute” that will result from Alacrity being a substitution for another 1-3 weapon skills and some slightly different shatters.

That cooldown spreadsheet, if accurate, looks bananas for some skills. Just bananas! I love it.

What gets me a little irritated is that our new “Continuim Shift” F5 is supposed to compensate us for only getting the OH shield. And here in the trait changes, Engineer gets what? That’s right a new F5 kit. And we still haven’t seen his specialization or new weapon.

The chronomancer sounds really cool. I just hope that we can REALLY utilize that alacrity/slow and they don’t have huge cooldowns. Thus, chronomancer ends up being kind of gimmick cause we can only take advantage once very 5 minutes or something. I want it to be our “Fast Casting” in GW2. So that when played skillfully, its a powerful force.

SlimChance.6593:

What gets me a little irritated is that our new “Continuim Shift” F5 is supposed to compensate us for only getting the OH shield. And here in the trait changes, Engineer gets what? That’s right a new F5 kit. And we still haven’t seen his specialization or new weapon.

The chronomancer sounds really cool. I just hope that we can REALLY utilize that alacrity/slow and they don’t have huge cooldowns. Thus, chronomancer ends up being kind of gimmick cause we can only take advantage once very 5 minutes or something. I want it to be our “Fast Casting” in GW2. So that when played skillfully, its a powerful force.

Engi has a hammer.

Guys…. F5 is NOT a compensation for only getting a offhand weapon.
This would imply that every new elite specialisation weapon skill is better than the old weapon skills and therefore you need compensation because only getting 2 new OP skills leaves you with 3 old bad weapon skills on your skillbar.

That’s not how it works. Getting less NEW things, does not justify getting more POWERFUL things. this only works in an equation where ‘new = more powerful’.

also, for those comparing it to engy f5: engy gets a fix to its class mechanic, not a buff to its elite specialisation. its not related at all just because both skills standard keybind is f5…

quBit.6437:

Guys…. F5 is NOT a compensation for only getting a offhand weapon.
This would imply that every new elite specialisation weapon skill is better than the old weapon skills and therefore you need compensation because only getting 2 new OP skills leaves you with 3 old bad weapon skills on your skillbar.

I, um.. What?

quBit.6437:

That’s not how it works. Getting less NEW things, does not justify getting more POWERFUL things. this only works in an equation where ‘new = more powerful’.

I’m not understanding what you’re saying. How exactly would it be “fair” if we lost a shatter for f5 and still got shafted out of 3 new skills?

Necro got a new weapon GS, a set of shouts, AND a new Deathshroud that goes with the new weapon. They got 15 new skills altogether. Guardians only got a new weapon, some traps and 3 new virtues. Should they also be complaining?

SlimChance.6593:

What gets me a little irritated is that our new “Continuim Shift” F5 is supposed to compensate us for only getting the OH shield. And here in the trait changes, Engineer gets what? That’s right a new F5 kit. And we still haven’t seen his specialization or new weapon..

I feel that its not the extra button that counts, its what it does. Continuum Shift has far more possibilities and is much stronger than Engi’s F5. That’s not even considering Alacrity.

Engineers got a new kit, but we got so many buffs and reworks to core mesmer that I don’t see how we really could be mad or feel shafted in any way. Just look at Mimic, Moa, TimeWarp, ect.

I think you misunderstand. I dont mean that f5 wouldn’t be enough of compensation. I mean that seeing f5 as being a compensation is wrong, because there is nothing that has to be compensated for.
I’m not complaining that mesmer gets less than other classes. It’s the other way around, i think mesmer got more than other classes which seems unfair.
Basicly, the chronomancer is a mesmer but it gets the f5 on top of the existing mesmer mechanics. Other classes only get skill mechanics (f-skills) replaced, not added. So chronomancer is a BUFF to mesmer, while let’s say reaper is an ALTERNATIVE to necromancer. Or dragonhunter, also is an ALTERNATIVE to guardian. Chronomancer is not an alternative like the others but just a flat out buff, and that’s a fact.

Honestly not sure why you’re bothering to dignify this thread with responses at this point, chaos. This is the type of one that I just sorta point and laugh at.

Fay.2357:

Honestly not sure why you’re bothering to dignify this thread with responses at this point, chaos. This is the type of one that I just sorta point and laugh at.

Because Nelson was my least favorite Simpson’s character. =P

quBit.6437:

I think you misunderstand. I dont mean that f5 wouldn’t be enough of compensation. I mean that seeing f5 as being a compensation is wrong, because there is nothing that has to be compensated for.
I’m not complaining that mesmer gets less than other classes. It’s the other way around, i think mesmer got more than other classes which seems unfair.
Basicly, the chronomancer is a mesmer but it gets the f5 on top of the existing mesmer mechanics. Other classes only get skill mechanics (f-skills) replaced, not added. So chronomancer is a BUFF to mesmer, while let’s say reaper is an ALTERNATIVE to necromancer. Or dragonhunter, also is an ALTERNATIVE to guardian. Chronomancer is not an alternative like the others but just a flat out buff, and that’s a fact.

Not exactly.

Chronomancers aren’t just better versions of Mesmer. I agree that we don’t have as much of a tradeoff as other classes, but the tradeoff we do have (sacrificing a traitline for the Chronomancer tree) is still significant, and builds will differ. Yes, we didn’t get our F-skills replaced, but we also got less than other classes in terms of skills. What I’m saying is, if our shatters had been replaced and we only got the offhand, then both Necro and Guardian would’ve ended up getting more than us.

I think that Robert Gee actually did a really clever job with the class design. Speccing into chronomancer means every core Mesmer build is losing something:

• Lockdown Mesmer either lose Dueling or Chaos Line
• Shatter Mesmer either lose Illusions or Domination
• Phantasm Mesmer lose .. uh.. Titus, tag in here?
• Condition Mesmer have no good traits in Chronomancy except Chronophantasma

Every buildtype has a mandatory traitline, Domination for lockdown, Dueling for shatter, ect. Deceptive Evasion, contrary what many believe, is still going to be an extremely important trait to grab, but every single tree has amazing choices to choose from. Going Chronomancer -& investing in Alacrity- means changing how you play, but it doesn’t mean all Chronomancer builds will be outright superior to core Mesmer.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

but the tradeoff we do have (sacrificing a traitline for the Chronomancer tree) is still significant

that’s the same tradeoff every other elite specialisation has too. Chronomancer has less tradeoffs than any other elite specialisation by keeping f1-4 and getting f5 additionaly.

Also, this new traitline gives something useful for most builds and the f5 is useful for every build, maybe stronger in some than in others, but in any case it’s very very strong.

I would go as far as saying that continuum split is THE most valuable skill in the game simply because it allows you do double cast any other skill (and even multiple skills) you want to, and in addition to that resets your HP back to the initial cast point.

So yes, i think the tradeoff you have to make in order to get access to continuum split is IMO way too low for most builds and even non-existant for some builds. While all other elite specialisations (so far) always have a clear tradeoff. The amount of new weapon skills we get is completely unrelevant for this.

I think the question is not if we got more, but if we are more powerful, because we got more. I will go for now with your argument and ignore the only-off-hand-argument and say: Yes we got more, we got an addition, not a mere replace of our class mechanics.

Does this now mean, that a Chronomancer, just because he has a button more, is more powerful aka overpowered? This, I think, cannot be answered to completion at this point but only speculated. While I think F5 is very powerful and allows for a very special kind of versatility, it doesn’t make Chronomancers more powerful per se. Especially because F5, depending on the HP of the shard/rift it leaves behind and the duration on F5, can be very tricky and possibly self defeating.

And this is the actual nature of it. F5 is not a simple shatter like any other. While you can in the worst case only waste the other shatters by triggering on completely inappropriate timings. F5 offers way more levels of counterplay and can potentially screw you totally up, even if your intended plan actually was good. You can, to a part, defeat yourself.

Do Chronomancers have more options than Core Chronomancers in a fight? Yep, but the potential counterplay and ways to screw it up makes it potentially a “zero-sum game” (yes, I know the term doesn’t actually really apply here, but you know what I mean).

Design a third mainhand for us, then you can complain about “unfair” changes.

Then what do you think about Engi just gets one additional F5 no matter what specialization they choose?

Also not fair to you?

Another good way to think about chronomancy is that do you really think it’s mandatory? If you truly believe that an additional F5 is overpowered, then let’s see if every mesmer will be chronomancer after expansion.

Exciton.8942:

Then what do you think about Engi just gets one additional F5 no matter what specialization they choose?

Also not fair to you?

Another good way to think about chronomancy is that do you really think it’s mandatory? If you truly believe that an additional F5 is overpowered, then let’s see if every mesmer will be chronomancer after expansion.

Lol nailed it.

@ Exciton.8942 as i said before, this has absolutely nothing to do with engy f5. please think and read before you make redundant posts.

@TyPin.9860 there is very little counterplay to continuum shift. even in the worst case scenario where you acomplish nothin while in continuum shift because your enemy blocks/evades/stuns you or whatever, you still lured those cooldowns out of them which you couldn’t have done without the f5. Either way, the f5 is a flat buff upgrade, be it super strong or only somewhat strong doesn’t matter. The point is them getting a flat upgrade instead of a replace like the other elite specialisations.

Exciton.8942:

Then what do you think about Engi just gets one additional F5 no matter what specialization they choose?

Also not fair to you?

Another good way to think about chronomancy is that do you really think it’s mandatory? If you truly believe that an additional F5 is overpowered, then let’s see if every mesmer will be chronomancer after expansion.

They probably will for a while, but mostly because of expansion hype

quBit.6437:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

but the tradeoff we do have (sacrificing a traitline for the Chronomancer tree) is still significant

that’s the same tradeoff every other elite specialisation has too. Chronomancer has less tradeoffs than any other elite specialisation by keeping f1-4 and getting f5 additionaly.

Also, this new traitline gives something useful for most builds and the f5 is useful for every build, maybe stronger in some than in others, but in any case it’s very very strong.

I would go as far as saying that continuum split is THE most valuable skill in the game simply because it allows you do double cast any other skill (and even multiple skills) you want to, and in addition to that resets your HP back to the initial cast point.

So yes, i think the tradeoff you have to make in order to get access to continuum split is IMO way too low for most builds and even non-existant for some builds. While all other elite specialisations (so far) always have a clear tradeoff. The amount of new weapon skills we get is completely unrelevant for this.

So what you’re saying is that chronomancer is so strong it’s mandatory for every mesmer build once it has been released, meaning every mesmer is almost forced to buy the expansion resulting into more money for arenanet?

What were you supposed to get out of this thread? Not even all elite specs has been released, let alone the balancing, let alone the actual in game experience of the elite specs. By the looks of it, you’re having a delayed rage on a skill you find OP. These kind of threads are usually being made within 1 hour after the release, not after 1.5month.

quBit.6437:

@TyPin.9860 there is very little counterplay to continuum shift. even in the worst case scenario where you acomplish nothin while in continuum shift because your enemy blocks/evades/stuns you or whatever, you still lured those cooldowns out of them which you couldn’t have done without the f5. Either way, the f5 is a flat buff upgrade, be it super strong or only somewhat strong doesn’t matter. The point is them getting a flat upgrade instead of a replace like the other elite specialisations.

That’s also bullkitten. The cooldown, as they said, will be amazingly high. You’re giving up illusions you could’ve shattered otherwise and you only have a short time to handle. On the minimap there will even be an item you can destroy to get the mesmer out of the form and get teleported back to that spot. Like that you can just get the mesmer completely off-guard. There’s enough cons and counterplay to the skill for what it does and it’s surely something that makes up for the kittenty wells and lack of new skills we get.

@quBit:
This is not true. Remember the PvP balance in GW2 is around 5v5 sPvP.

With F5 of the Chronomancer the opposing team can force him to the position of the shard/rift, he left behind, potentially forcing him into traps/marks/other AoE the opposing team has laid down. They can use the F5 of the Chronomancer to their advantage and spike him down, creating potentially a 5v4 situation to their advantage. This is alone is huge counterplay the skill offers.

Ever laid marks on a Mesmer portal and watch him die in panic, after he used it? I have and with the left behind shard/rift, this can happen the same way.

quBit.6437:

@TyPin.9860 there is very little counterplay to continuum shift. even in the worst case scenario where you acomplish nothin while in continuum shift because your enemy blocks/evades/stuns you or whatever, you still lured those cooldowns out of them which you couldn’t have done without the f5.

Only for scrubs who react poorly, and can’t out play a short duration on a long c/d through the ebb and flow of combat.

If you cannot see this then you have no valid opinion on balance.

As for strait upgrade: Excluding heals, traits, and new utilities/elitie (which everyone gets and all the members are not present.)

Guard gets 3 reworked and 5 new skills.
Necro gets 5 (6 if you count the switch button) reworked and skills 5 new skills.
Mesmer gets 3 new skills. ALL on long c/ds.

But comparing numbers in such a way is silly. at the end of the day quality/quantity it all balances out in the end.

@TyPin: as chronomancer, you will ALWAYS pop f4 before returning since it’s cd will be reset afterwards and there is no reason to pop f4 any earlier since youre gonna reset your HP, it doesn’t matter how much you lose in the f5 duration. So there’s not much counterplay really.

Any decent mesmer will also pop f4 before using a portal when they know there is some enemy on the other side who couldve dropped aoe on it. Especially when it is a necro.

There is very limited counterplay to continuum split at a decent skill level, that’s part of why it’s so strong.

@quBit:
Why do you argue a straw man now? I didn’t say anything about triggering F5 a 2nd time to return “on purpose”. I talked about the shard/rift being destroyed and therefore the Mesmer returns without him actually wanting that. Of course this comes all down to the actual situation and if he can anticipate it happening.

The portal comment was btw just to illustrate the effect. The difference being, that the destruction of the shard/rift might not be anticipated by the Mesmer. And even just forcefully repositioning the Mesmer can be enough to throw him/his team off.

But we will see, what happens. According to your argument, after HoT releases, all Mesmers (with expansion) will become Chornomancers, because they got more. We will see and I highly doubt it will come to this.

I personally am way more worried about PU Phantasm builds (also in combination with Chronomancy). When the Mesmer stays in hiding forever and the phantasms do their thing.

quBit.6437:

This has probably been brought up before, but i’ve been wondering what the reasoning is behind giving the chronomancer an additional class mechanic (f5), while other elite specialisations only get their class mechanics replaced (e.g. dragonhunter gets f1-3 replaced, reaper gets f1 replaced,..)

I would think it made way more sense to replace the mesmers f4 skill when opting for chronomancer since it’s just a flat out buff as opped to an alternative playstyle. It seems a little unfair IMO.

Any thoughts?

I agree 100% with you. They should replace F4 instead of adding F5. Chronomancer looks 10 times better than the other specializations like reaper and dragonhunter. Either nerf it or buff the other specializations.

TyPin.9860:

The difference being, that the destruction of the shard/rift might not be anticipated by the Mesmer.

If you’re not completely horrible at the game, you will see it and f4 before that happens. Bad players should never be an argument for balance.

TyPin.9860:

According to your argument, after HoT releases, all Mesmers (with expansion) will become Chornomancers, because they got more.

No. By that logic, everyone would already play good builds. But that’s not the case, many people have horrible builds, the patch won’t change that. The f5 will also higher the mesmers skillcap so not too many players will be comfortable with it and not utilize it optimaly. Those players will shy away from it pretty soon and go for an easier to play build.

Something being overpowered doesn’t mean that everyone will use it. If that was the case, every engy would run perplexity runes, every thief would would run venomshare,… There are two possible reasons why they don’t:
1: misinformed / no knowledge
2: other purpose of build / other prefered playstyle.
And thats another reason why not all mesmers will be chronomancers

xDudisx.5914:

quBit.6437:

This has probably been brought up before, but i’ve been wondering what the reasoning is behind giving the chronomancer an additional class mechanic (f5), while other elite specialisations only get their class mechanics replaced (e.g. dragonhunter gets f1-3 replaced, reaper gets f1 replaced,..)

I would think it made way more sense to replace the mesmers f4 skill when opting for chronomancer since it’s just a flat out buff as opped to an alternative playstyle. It seems a little unfair IMO.

Any thoughts?

I agree 100% with you. They should replace F4 instead of adding F5. Chronomancer looks 10 times better than the other specializations like reaper and dragonhunter. Either nerf it or buff the other specializations.

If xDudisx is agreeing with you, you know you’ve gone off the deep end of irrational mesmer hate. Not a good sign there.

Ah yes, let’s complain about specialisations when other classes’ specialisation isn’t out yet and we’re couple more months away from specialisation launch.

I’d say move on guys, these sort of argument have no conclusion.

quBit.6437:

TyPin.9860:

The difference being, that the destruction of the shard/rift might not be anticipated by the Mesmer.

If you’re not completely horrible at the game, you will see it and f4 before that happens. Bad players should never be an argument for balance.

Yes yes, the we-only-assume-the-player-plays-perfectly-and-with-godly-forsight-argument. I also heard, if you’re not completely horrible, you always sheathes GS AA, you always anticipate Thief attacks, you always dodge in the right moment, no Power attack will hit you, you’ll never waste a shatter and so on…

It is not about actual bad play. You simply, so your already weak argument has any standing, disregard any difficulty associated with F5 as horrible play.

it shouldn’t be harder than switching pets on ranger before it dies really, unless you have bad keybinds… what makes you believe that it would be so hard to anticipate? it’s not like youre gonna be out of sight of the shard, especially when your foe is attacking it.

quBit.6437:

there is very little counterplay to continuum shift

Congratulations, a mechanic about denying the enemy the ability to counteract you has no counterplay. Who would have thought?

I mean really, who cares one bit whether we get an additional shatter or not? Things which matter in design:

• Complexity
• Depth
• Viability
• Feel

Does it add up? Yes/no. Other classes can work entirely different because – surprise – classes aren’t comparable. Our F5 is a very complex mechanic, but the high CD means that it’s viable to be added on top of existent shatters (plus well, you can’t utilize your clones with just this :P ). The depth then comes from the multi-use of clones/phantasms.

quBit.6437:

it shouldn’t be harder than switching pets on ranger before it dies really, unless you have bad keybinds… what makes you believe that it would be so hard to anticipate? it’s not like youre gonna be out of sight of the shard, especially when your foe is attacking it.

What makes you think you always see it? What makes you think you always have F4 available?

TyPin.9860:

What makes you think you always see it?

Why would i not see it? When i use f5, im not gonna run away from it while an enemy is trying to destroy it. I will either always have an eye on it while an enemy is near, or i won’t have to because no enemy is near. simple as that.

TyPin.9860:

What makes you think you always have F4 available?

because i will obviously keep my f4 for when i f5. or keep my f5 for when i need f4.
see, currently when you’re being bursted, you pop f4 to evade all the damage. as chronomancer you pop f5 and be guaranteed to return with the HP you had when you cast it
→ f4 keeps your HP of cast point (minus condition damage), f5 resets your HP to cast point HP.
now if you use f4, that will be on cooldown and you now have the potential problem you mentioned before. but if you use f5 instead, you don’t, and you still have your f4 cd up afterwards even if you still f4 before returning. so basicly you have more distortion uptime that way if you need it.

@quBit:
I know where your problem lies. You’re imagination of how a fight goes is way too idealized.

If you use F5 the fight might drag you away from the shard (loosing LoS might be already enough), where your chance to anticipate its destruction goes from seeing it to guessing it. You might have also tried to place the shard behind obstacles, for the enemy not to see it. But then you might not see it yourself, after you ran in the fight and another enemy player might find it and burst it down. Or the shard is within LoS, but the opponents burst comes too fast for you to react. Especially when multiple foes do a coordinated burst on it. There are many ways, how the shard destruction may surprise you.

Also, it may not always be possible to safe F4 for F5. Anything that is in cool down, before you trigger F5, will have essentially a prolonged cool down, that is equal to the time you are actively using the F5 effect. So imagine in a fight, you used F5, your shard got destroyed just after you use F4. F5 is now in a long cool down. To say, you wouldn’t need F4 another time during this cool down, is a bit unrealistic imo. Of course F4 has a shorter CD than F5. But still, unless you use F4 very early, it may simply not be ready the next time you need to F5. Imagine you are under huge pressure, while F5 is like 10 seconds away from being ready again. You tell me now, that you will, no matter what, safe F4 for those 10 seconds? Even though you might just die doing so…

We will see how it turns out in reality. Of course, if I run only into ideal stereotypical fight scenarios, it all may go in my favor. But arguing from ideal fight scenarios is not a very solid basis.

As Nike said, this is a useless debate until we actually know, and have experienced, the mechanics involved. From the sounds of the recent video on skill changes, F5’s duration will be shortened in order to avoid making it possible to pop too many abilities. In turn, this short duration and/or general mechanics of the rift itself, may make it relatively impractical to attempt to destroy it as you’re wasting time/effort only for the Mesmer to be pulled back anyway either by his own actions or the abilities time simply running out.

Who knows? Too many variables to know, but saying Chrono is stronger than other lines at this point is pure speculation. I would argue it looks pretty weak actually, when taken in the context of actually making a viable build with it that isn’t centered around the “one trick pony” that F5 is doomed to be due to it’s long CD.

Such trickery is often way too easy to counter by a competent team, and after that it’s on a prohibitively long CD. So in the end, Chrono may turn out to be just one more “newb bashing” build, of which Mesmers have enough. (Highly effective against inexperienced players, and almost entirely ineffective against experienced players in organized teams.)