Guild Wars 2

Do you think it’s possible that the chronomancer has finally given mesmers a way to play competitively without DE? I’m up in the air and won’t make a final decision on it until after release. But I think alacrity, plus weapon traits, and the “chronophantasm” and “clone” trait where they respawn immediately on shatter may make it possible.

Thoughts?

There already are various builds that can play without DE, and there will be other interesting ones that chrono opens up that won’t take DE.

However, I’m going to assume you’re talking about a shatter build. The answer is most likely ‘no’. Even taking both will be a sorry replacement for DE, and chronophantasma is much more geared towards letting phantasm builds shatter rather than for pure shatter builds (see: slow on crit trait that it shares a spot with).

What the clone on shatter trait will do for shatter builds is allow for a significantly faster cadence of shattering, while using DE, that will fit well with the boost that alacrity will give.

Both traits are good in making your subsequent shatters easier, but they can’t provide clones on demand. I know you spend endurance so it may not be on demand all the time but I can’t think of another way to say it

Illusionary reversion won’t work with sword associated power shatter because sword clones rarely survive longer than 10s (roughly that time for next mind wrack), better if you have GS, but again any unintended/intended cleaving within 10s will remove that clone. I can see this works with condi shatter because you’re not limited to mind wrack (and the time interval between CD), but you’ll want to take dueling for on crit minors anyway and mistrust is more situated towards multiple opponents.

Chronophantasma has a vital counterplay in shatter. Due to phantasms running towards target to deal shatter damage, you’re exposing your phantasm to “danger zone” that can easily be cleaved out. So again, probably won’t work so well if you have to wait 10s for your next mind wrack cycle.

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Both traits are good in making your subsequent shatters easier, but they can’t provide clones on demand. I know you spend endurance so it may not be on demand all the time but I can’t think of another way to say it

Illusionary reversion won’t work with sword associated power shatter because sword clones rarely survive longer than 10s (roughly that time for next mind wrack), better if you have GS, but again any unintended/intended cleaving within 10s will remove that clone. I can see this works with condi shatter because you’re not limited to mind wrack (and the time interval between CD), but you’ll want to take dueling for on crit minors anyway and mistrust is more situated towards multiple opponents.

Chronophantasma has a vital counterplay in shatter. Due to phantasms running towards target to deal shatter damage, you’re exposing your phantasm to “danger zone” that can easily be cleaved out. So again, probably won’t work so well if you have to wait 10s for your next mind wrack cycle.

We should pretend to be mindless internet users and just reply #dodgeshatters and link vashury’s channel.

Sadrien.3470:

We should pretend to be mindless internet users and just reply #dodgeshatters and link vashury’s channel.

Maybe we should just follow what you suggest, since you formed such a brilliant argument on how those 2 traits work

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Sadrien.3470:

We should pretend to be mindless internet users and just reply #dodgeshatters and link vashury’s channel.

Maybe we should just follow what you suggest, since you formed such a brilliant argument on how those 2 traits work

#dodgeshatters #/watch?v=c3fUhFuUP-E 16:00
Edit: I can already tell my tactic / is being effective.

Now I just need to link vashury’s video. #done

I think you definitely will see some power shatter builds with Chrono and no DE. I think people will figure out that they can set up a MW much faster with Illusionary Reversion coupled with Mirror Images, and thanks to the F5 mechanic can do this rapidly twice in a row. (Not to mention a combo with Confounding Suggestions and an F3->MI->F1 combo to “stun & gun” people down should be very deadly.)

Although this is a bit niche because you then suffer a longer cool down period between bursts, I think the lure of this huge and fast spike damage will be very tempting.

I guess it really depends on the Illusions line and specifically MoF. If this line becomes more optional, which it currently looks to be, then I guess most P-Shatter builds will continue to go with Dueling & DE for Clone production. (Or of course give up Chronomancy, but that means giving up on a lot of QoL stuff like superspeed illusions on shatter, perma-speed, on-demand Quickness as well as the new F5 mechanic, the Elite Well, etc. that seem to be pretty powerful to say the least.)

I must be in the minority. I would love de to become baseline so being locked into a trait line to use our class mechanic doesn’t happen. In order to use our class mechanic we need illusions. For me a simple fix would be to shift damage from phantasms to Mesmer. Let our phantasms to less damage so shattering them does not shot us in the foot when it comes to maintaining our dps. Then the option for true build divirsity would appear.

DE is used for on demand clone production for 3 clone shatters. Unless the traits for gaining clones and phantasms back when shattering makes up for this then DE will still feel mandatory and you will still feel you need it for shatter builds.

Other builds like interrupt and phantasm builds can probably do with out DE. We’ll have to see what the new trait lines look like tonight (or afternoon for those in NA) and when it all rolls out.

Sadrien.3470:

NICENIKESHOE.7128:

Sadrien.3470:

We should pretend to be mindless internet users and just reply #dodgeshatters and link vashury’s channel.

Maybe we should just follow what you suggest, since you formed such a brilliant argument on how those 2 traits work

#dodgeshatters #/watch?v=c3fUhFuUP-E 16:00
Edit: I can already tell my tactic / is being effective.

Now I just need to link vashury’s video. #done

Oh look its the imaginary triangles guy’s video.

Honestly I think that a build with chronomancy over dueling could work well for lockdown, with a domination/chaos/chrono set up. You’d only really be missing out on pistol recharge (if you use pistol) and blinding shatter though, but CI and all the stuff from chrono could make up for it.

I think a better question would be: “Is having IP baseline enough to live without DE?”

SlimChance.6593:

I think a better question would be: “Is having IP baseline enough to live without DE?”

I’m kinda thinking that maybe illusions will be less necessary for shatter builds. I know it sounds weird. But really I think chronomancer can run a shatter build w/o the illusions tree.

jportell.2197:

SlimChance.6593:

I think a better question would be: “Is having IP baseline enough to live without DE?”

I’m kinda thinking that maybe illusions will be less necessary for shatter builds. I know it sounds weird. But really I think chronomancer can run a shatter build w/o the illusions tree.

I’m pretty sure you’re right. Shatter Mesmer can now get some good options from either Inspiration (Condi cleanse + Heal shatter) or Chaos (Chaotic Interrupt, Stability+Boon on Shatter) too, not even considering the Chrono stuff and F5 shatter.

Master of Frag is the only reason to go into Illusions

Chaos Archangel.5071:

jportell.2197:

SlimChance.6593:

I think a better question would be: “Is having IP baseline enough to live without DE?”

I’m kinda thinking that maybe illusions will be less necessary for shatter builds. I know it sounds weird. But really I think chronomancer can run a shatter build w/o the illusions tree.

I’m pretty sure you’re right. Shatter Mesmer can now get some good options from either Inspiration (Condi cleanse + Heal shatter) or Chaos (Chaotic Interrupt, Stability+Boon on Shatter) too, not even considering the Chrono stuff and F5 shatter.

Master of Frag is the only reason to go into Illusions

And it is really just rolling precise wrack, confusing cry, imbued diversion, and masterful reflection all in one. I mean really the only big plus from that is imbued diversion. As far as reflects go, shield is going to be a lot better for reflects now. Imbued diversion is cool, but we found ways to be without this before since it competed for illusionary persona. Really the only thing I see a shatter mes losing out on by not going into illusions is Illusionists celerity, and shattered strength.

jportell.2197:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

jportell.2197:

SlimChance.6593:

I think a better question would be: “Is having IP baseline enough to live without DE?”

I’m kinda thinking that maybe illusions will be less necessary for shatter builds. I know it sounds weird. But really I think chronomancer can run a shatter build w/o the illusions tree.

I’m pretty sure you’re right. Shatter Mesmer can now get some good options from either Inspiration (Condi cleanse + Heal shatter) or Chaos (Chaotic Interrupt, Stability+Boon on Shatter) too, not even considering the Chrono stuff and F5 shatter.

Master of Frag is the only reason to go into Illusions

And it is really just rolling precise wrack, confusing cry, imbued diversion, and masterful reflection all in one. I mean really the only big plus from that is imbued diversion. As far as reflects go, shield is going to be a lot better for reflects now. Imbued diversion is cool, but we found ways to be without this before since it competed for illusionary persona. Really the only thing I see a shatter mes losing out on by not going into illusions is Illusionists celerity, and shattered strength.

Doesn’t tides of time just destroy, not reflect projectiles?

nearlight.3064:

jportell.2197:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

jportell.2197:

SlimChance.6593:

I think a better question would be: “Is having IP baseline enough to live without DE?”

I’m kinda thinking that maybe illusions will be less necessary for shatter builds. I know it sounds weird. But really I think chronomancer can run a shatter build w/o the illusions tree.

I’m pretty sure you’re right. Shatter Mesmer can now get some good options from either Inspiration (Condi cleanse + Heal shatter) or Chaos (Chaotic Interrupt, Stability+Boon on Shatter) too, not even considering the Chrono stuff and F5 shatter.

Master of Frag is the only reason to go into Illusions

And it is really just rolling precise wrack, confusing cry, imbued diversion, and masterful reflection all in one. I mean really the only big plus from that is imbued diversion. As far as reflects go, shield is going to be a lot better for reflects now. Imbued diversion is cool, but we found ways to be without this before since it competed for illusionary persona. Really the only thing I see a shatter mes losing out on by not going into illusions is Illusionists celerity, and shattered strength.

Doesn’t tides of time just destroy, not reflect projectiles?

You’re right it does just destroy. I still am kinda getting the feeling that shatter mes can get away without using illusions soon. Idk.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

jportell.2197:

SlimChance.6593:

I think a better question would be: “Is having IP baseline enough to live without DE?”

I’m kinda thinking that maybe illusions will be less necessary for shatter builds. I know it sounds weird. But really I think chronomancer can run a shatter build w/o the illusions tree.

I’m pretty sure you’re right. Shatter Mesmer can now get some good options from either Inspiration (Condi cleanse + Heal shatter) or Chaos (Chaotic Interrupt, Stability+Boon on Shatter) too, not even considering the Chrono stuff and F5 shatter.

Master of Frag is the only reason to go into Illusions

Incorrect. Other reasons to go into Illusions for a shatter build:

• Illusionist Celerity = illusion-summoning CDs
• Shattered Strength = might on shatter and shattering CDs (this could also theoretically apply to F5 if you went Dom/Ill/Chr)
• Illusionary Retribution = pretty underrated benefit of this skill in a power-based build is that it adds a cover condition. While other classes do better with confusion, not many actually apply it often. This makes it harder for enemies to clear the more important conditions applied by allies.

Does Alacrity make up for these CDs? I’m unsure. I think it’ll be hard for Chrono to replace DE in a “classic shatter” build, because you’re not really getting clones on demand. It’s more reactive in the way that you have to already be shattering in order to gain additional clones. It’s weird way to think about it.

If you’re not taking DE, then going into Chronomancer will lend itself to be more supportive/interrupt based than purely shatter imo. But the great thing about our trait revamp is that most builds are now a nice conglomeration of shatter/phantasm/interrupt in addition to having the ability to go either supportive, condi/power or tanky!

eta – Also, I know we’ve been forced to do without Imbued Diversion for a long time, but omg is that a potentially strong trait when you think about all of our buffed interrupt traits like Power Block.

jportell.2197:

SlimChance.6593:

I think a better question would be: “Is having IP baseline enough to live without DE?”

I’m kinda thinking that maybe illusions will be less necessary for shatter builds. I know it sounds weird. But really I think chronomancer can run a shatter build w/o the illusions tree.

Your comment makes absolutely no sense, no one has been planning to run illusions with power shatter since they anounced the changes and illusions offers no clone generation.

Sadrien.3470:

jportell.2197:

SlimChance.6593:

I think a better question would be: “Is having IP baseline enough to live without DE?”

I’m kinda thinking that maybe illusions will be less necessary for shatter builds. I know it sounds weird. But really I think chronomancer can run a shatter build w/o the illusions tree.

Your comment makes absolutely no sense, no one has been planning to run illusions with power shatter since they anounced the changes and illusions offers no clone generation.

I’d say Illusions, Dueling, and Domination would be the clearest choice, actually.
Compounding Power + Shattered Strength + Master of Fragmentation would give the most offensive strength out of the choice of Illusions, Inspiration, or Chaos[assuming Domination and Dueling are a given for DE and Mental Anguish].

Sadrien.3470:

jportell.2197:

SlimChance.6593:

I think a better question would be: “Is having IP baseline enough to live without DE?”

I’m kinda thinking that maybe illusions will be less necessary for shatter builds. I know it sounds weird. But really I think chronomancer can run a shatter build w/o the illusions tree.

Your comment makes absolutely no sense, no one has been planning to run illusions with power shatter since they anounced the changes and illusions offers no clone generation.

This comment was made before the ready up today.

jportell.2197:

Sadrien.3470:

jportell.2197:

SlimChance.6593:

I think a better question would be: “Is having IP baseline enough to live without DE?”

I’m kinda thinking that maybe illusions will be less necessary for shatter builds. I know it sounds weird. But really I think chronomancer can run a shatter build w/o the illusions tree.

Your comment makes absolutely no sense, no one has been planning to run illusions with power shatter since they anounced the changes and illusions offers no clone generation.

This comment was made before the ready up today.

the ready up today has absolutely nothing to do with it. They didn’t even show any mesmer changes on it.

Sadrien.3470:

jportell.2197:

Sadrien.3470:

jportell.2197:

SlimChance.6593:

I think a better question would be: “Is having IP baseline enough to live without DE?”

I’m kinda thinking that maybe illusions will be less necessary for shatter builds. I know it sounds weird. But really I think chronomancer can run a shatter build w/o the illusions tree.

Your comment makes absolutely no sense, no one has been planning to run illusions with power shatter since they anounced the changes and illusions offers no clone generation.

This comment was made before the ready up today.

the ready up today has absolutely nothing to do with it. They didn’t even show any mesmer changes on it.

If you look at the other threads they still released the fricking changes with the ready up! It’s one thing for pyro to be condescending toward people but he comes at it with a little more than just putting people down. You are bringing nothing other than a statement that was made with different information from what there is now.

jportell.2197:

Sadrien.3470:

jportell.2197:

Sadrien.3470:

jportell.2197:

SlimChance.6593:

I think a better question would be: “Is having IP baseline enough to live without DE?”

I’m kinda thinking that maybe illusions will be less necessary for shatter builds. I know it sounds weird. But really I think chronomancer can run a shatter build w/o the illusions tree.

Your comment makes absolutely no sense, no one has been planning to run illusions with power shatter since they anounced the changes and illusions offers no clone generation.

This comment was made before the ready up today.

the ready up today has absolutely nothing to do with it. They didn’t even show any mesmer changes on it.

If you look at the other threads they still released the fricking changes with the ready up! It’s one thing for pyro to be condescending toward people but he comes at it with a little more than just putting people down. You are bringing nothing other than a statement that was made with different information from what there is now.

The illusions traits still are not clone productive and not very different in any way outside of condi shatter. So I’m not sure why you think power shatter builds would go into illusions?

I did not mean to put you down I’m sorry if my wording sounded that way.

denis.9487:

I must be in the minority. I would love de to become baseline so being locked into a trait line to use our class mechanic doesn’t happen.

This would be kinda meh. Not bad, but meh. Rather, remove DE entirely and balance the class without it. Clone generation shouldn’t rely on an otherwise defensive maneuver.

There are many other choices coming that will make DE less desireable as the only viable source for Clone production.

- First off, DE is getting an indirect nerf, due to the pretty hefty nerf to Vigor! This will cut down on Clone production from DE by what 33%?

- Mimic and later F5 shatter from Chronomancy can allow you to double, and quadruple up on Mirror Images respectively. Talk about “on demand” Clone generation! Only MI really comes close to providing that. Dodging takes time and Clones are very prone to AE.

- Obviously Chronomancy traits to generate Clones and Phants are pretty strong too, but you also have the Shield that can potentially produce 2 Phants in rapid succession.

- Mental Defense in Insp. will summon a pDefender off block or evade. Another source of a useful Phantasm that first protects you from damage and then gets shattered along with the Clone you generated off block.

That and a lot of CD reductions we didn’t have before from Alacrity and other sources will also help with Illusion production. I don’t think DE will be even close to “must have” as it was before.