Guild Wars 2

The more I think about it, the more I think I may be sabotaging my own gameplay by not being smart about how I manage my clones. It’s difficult to keep track of what I have up at any given time, since I generate a lot of them and since they get killed and so forth.

In particular I am starting to suspect that Deceptive Evasion, much as I like it, may be doing more harm to me than good. I know the game will try to “replace” clones before actual phantasms, but when I get in trouble I dodge and then dodge again, which means that if I have 2 phantasms up, at least 1 of them is now dead. Then there are certain weapon autoattacks that generate even more.

How do people handle this? Appreciate your thoughts.

It depends on the build. If you’re a phantasm build then you don’t need to take Deceptive Evasion in the first place. If you’re a shatter build then you should be shattering BEFORE summoning Phantasms, and even then a well timed Diversion [F3] shatter can save you the need for a dodge.

If you’re both? Then it just becomes second nature after a while. What build are you running thats bringing up this issue?

If you have 2 phants up and you dodge twice, you should still have two phants up.

The same one we were dueling with yesterday, the hybrid GS/PU monstrosity. It still works fairly well but I think I’m overwriting my good phantasms.

I’ve pretty much always used deceptive and so it will be hard to run without that security blanket.. it does often fool people.

Xavi.. that’s a good point. And here’s I’m supposed to be good at math! Heh.

So maybe it’s not an issue after all.

You don’t need DE in that build. =P Time to strip free of that blanket.

I may try retaliatory shield as I find I block a lot. I’m just not sure how good it is.

I could also move those 10 points elsewhere I suppose. Maybe 10 in illusions for Compounding Power and +100 condition damage. But the build is already fairly low precision.

Decisions, decisions…

Post the build real quick, lets crack it open and tinker with it’s part. If ya need a build editor.. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgEQNAR8dlwzqqHTTqGbNA-w

For the love of Lyssa don’t take retaliatory shield.

I’m too skeered to post it up here for scrutiny.

Why not ret shield? See, that’s what I figured someone would say.

Ret shield is great if using the PU build.

This is a forum where hundreds of people are all scared of being judged, but put themselves out there for the sake of learning and almost always come out better for it. =P You’re new to the game, make your mistakes now and improve on them and it’ll only help ya out in the long run.

Besides.. I’m really curious to know exactly what that build was that rolled me and Warlord of Chaos like that. x_X Its gotta be doing something right.

I was surprised that it worked that well too. I think it only worked so well, frankly, because you guys were also mesmers, and we don’t handle conditions super well. Against classes that can cleanse rapidly, it’s a lot weaker.

I had asked Blackdevil for a PvP version of his hybrid build and he came up with this: http://intothemists.com/guides/2110-hybrid_phantasm_or_we

Mine is fairly similar just with different utils, scepter instead of sword and more condition damage on the amulet.

Mostly I’ve been tinkering on hybrids between the Blackdevil hybrid and the Blackwater PU, but every single build I’ve seen uses deceptive evasion. So I’m reluctant to give it up.

Okay, here’s approximately what I was running last night. The third util I can’t make my mind up on, but am now leaning towards disenchanter.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgAQNArfBlwzKqnUjteEx0jeL4AOSKUtXrkCc7CB-TsAgyCqIQShkDJDSSksINKYJy8DA

If you have 2 phantasms and 1 illusion, then only the one illusion will be replaced over and over again when you dodge. Wont lose any phantasms unless you have 3 up.
I think its pretty rare to have 3 phantasms up at a time (since they die) so I dont see Deceptive Evasion as a hindrance.

In PvE you manage to have triple phants up when you use a util phant. And then any ability which summons a clone (dodge, GS#2, Staff#2, Scepter#1-3, Scepter#2, Decoy …) does destroy a valuable phantasm.

But the main issue with with DE is that you sacrifice your valuable endurance for summoning illusions. Just turn it off and see how often you simply dodge without any reason.
It’s also a reason I’d like to see scepter’s #1 reworked.

Nretep.2564:

In PvE you manage to have triple phants up when you use a util phant. And then any ability which summons a clone (dodge, GS#2, Staff#2, Scepter#1-3, Scepter#2, Decoy …) does destroy a valuable phantasm.

But the main issue with with DE is that you sacrifice your valuable endurance for summoning illusions. Just turn it off and see how often you simply dodge without any reason.
It’s also a reason I’d like to see scepter’s #1 reworked.

for a build with high crit chance and DE I don’t see a problem with it due to the almost constant vigor from critical infusion.

Yeah, I think it’s not as big a deal as I thought it was at first.

I’ve played with the retaliation trait and it does actually do some nice bonus damage since I block several times a minute.

With the new heal though, Deceptive Evasion again becomes very hard to ignore.

I run blackdevil’s hybrid build with gs/s-p quite often. I also run my own version of a phantasm build from time to time. I never take DE in the phantasm build but always take it in the hybrid. The typical opening in the hybrid build is to: summon pistol4 phant, stun w/pistol4, leap w/sword3 to imobilize, then swap to gs and cast gs2 (clone replaces sw3 clone), then iZerker. At this point, I usually dodge away which gives me a gs clone (that replaces the gs2 clone – who’s already run his first attack cycle and stacked his bleeds). After this attack cycle, you still have the 2 main phantasms up, which you can now shatter to run the whole cycle over again, or just let them keep putting in work. It really depends on how the fight is going. Sometimes, the gs clones can stack bleeds so fast that it can be beneficial to have them out. When I play a pure phantasm build, I run gs/s-s, with traits to reduce cd on sword. I typically can get 3 phantasms up in these fights, so I never take DE for fear of a clone overwriting my hard hitting phantasms. I would suggest what Nretep said, and try running without DE. I know often, even in the hybrid build, I have bad habit of dodging for no reason just to summon another GS clone, which essentially is just overwriting the one already out. That comes from back in the days when I used to run pure shatter. It’s a tough habit to break on mesmers.

The issue with retaliatory shield is that it takes up the slot of much better traits. Since you’re using a phantasm build, you should have phantasmal fury traited, and then either sword or pistol traited. All 3 choices are much better than retaliatory shield.

As far as DE goes, I never take it in a phantasm build, for similar reasons. You don’t need it, and it takes the slot of vital traits for a phantasm build.

Thanks.

I always have fury in the adept slot. I’m currently running a build with neither sword nor pistol, so the cooldown reducers are not relevant.

I find I’m able to generate a decent amount of damage with retaliatory shield, but I think I prefer the extra clones, as I find a lot of players still chase them / waste time killing them. With the new healing signet DE becomes even more valuable, though I’m not sure yet if I’m sticking with that — I’m find it very ineffective in dealing with bursts.

I want to do more testing, but I also (coincidentally) just got a new keypad and my skill in the game has now dropped to little more than it was when I first started since I’ve lost pretty much all of my muscle memory. I am having trouble beating the NPCs in the mists lobby, lol.

UrMom.4205:

for a build with high crit chance and DE I don’t see a problem with it due to the almost constant vigor from critical infusion.

You don’t see such problems when you never tried without or never go meleeing your targets.

When I started the mesmer (first char) I also thought that DE was great. For roaming with GS … just #2, #4, dodge, F1 and mob down. And since you’re not constantly fighting you can do that all the time.
But when you go high level content (arah) you sometimes need two dodges in a row. And with DE you tend to automatically dodge once when encountering a mob, destroxing your endurance. Last time I tried DE again, I saw this behaviour again. You just keep dodging.
And when you learn to time your dodge (to evade an attack) you see how oten that created clone will be destroyed without attacking once, because it gets hit by the attack you dodged.

Nretep.2564:

UrMom.4205:

for a build with high crit chance and DE I don’t see a problem with it due to the almost constant vigor from critical infusion.

You don’t see such problems when you never tried without or never go meleeing your targets.

When I started the mesmer (first char) I also thought that DE was great. For roaming with GS … just #2, #4, dodge, F1 and mob down. And since you’re not constantly fighting you can do that all the time.
But when you go high level content (arah) you sometimes need two dodges in a row. And with DE you tend to automatically dodge once when encountering a mob, destroxing your endurance. Last time I tried DE again, I saw this behaviour again. You just keep dodging.
And when you learn to time your dodge (to evade an attack) you see how oten that created clone will be destroyed without attacking once, because it gets hit by the attack you dodged.

I don’t really follow. First you say that DE is counter useful since it makes you “burn endurance”. This is a clear l2p issue and has nothing to do with the skill.

Then you complain that the clones are destroyed on successful dodges anyway. That’s not what DE is for, it’s there for providing another method of clone creation. You don’t want that clone after the dodge when you evade an attack, you want the clone when you are at 100% endurance and you know you won’t have to dodge for the next couple of seconds but would like to have another clone. Again, strict l2p issue here or more exact, know which clones are useful.

Back to your main point though, you are right in the assessment that DE is in no way needed. It is a very useful tool though, I’d say almost to useful for 20 points compared to what we get at 30. Also please don’t use things like “For roaming with GS … just #2, #4, dodge, F1 and mob down.” to prove a point. That’s not even Mesmer 101. That’s like saying warriors use 100b and mob dies. That has nothing to do with how that trait/skill is to be used.

Nretep.2564:

And with DE you tend to automatically dodge once when encountering a mob, destroxing your endurance.

Which is why.. you don’t do that.

IIRC one of the popular builds on the forum here, maybe Blackdevil’s, even specifically instructs against using DE in this manner.