Guild Wars 2

So, this is what I found with some quick testing of the GS vs Staff with a build around 1300 power, 1400 condition damage, 40% crit chance, and 32% critical dmg. No sigils (like earth) were used and I did the testing on the risen in Orr with about 10 rounds per Staff and GS for the categories below.

3 CLONES ATTACKING ONLY:
- Staff = 6-8 bleeds and 20 sec time until kill average
- GS = 8-10 bleeds and 20 sec time until kill average

ME + 3 CLONES ATTACKING with #1 SKILL ONLY:
- Staff = 10-12 bleeds and 10 sec time until kill average
- GS = 8-10 bleeds and 15 sec time until kill average

ME + 3 CLONES ATTACKING ALL OUT:
- Staff = 8-10 bleeds and 8 sec time until kill average
- Sword = 8-10 bleeds and 15 sec time until kill average

So, I think it can be argued that GS clones can stack more bleeds and kill things by themselves in the same amount of time as staff clones in a condition damage heavy build. However, the reason why the kill times are the same is likely because the staff clones also stack vuln and do burns.

When your character enters the mix, the numbers change significantly. You get about a 50% increase in kill time with the staff and a 25% increase with the GS. The likely reason for this is due to the synergy of condition damage with your staff via winds of chaos, the warlock that scales with # conditions on the target, the poison from chaos storm, and the boons from WoC bounces. Shatters remain equal in applying damage and confusion. On the other hand. the GS offers no other way to do condition damage other than bleeds from your illusions (and possibly you if you have sigil of Earth). Also, a condition build with lower power does not take advantage of the great power-scaling potential of the GS.

In conclusion, I’d say that the staff is superior to the GS in a condition build not only because of it’s increased damage, but also because chaos armor and chaos storm are priceless (especially in PvP/WvW).

Thanks for the tested info, Astus. That is good to know, I had been considering sliding towards GS for the bleeds but I didn’t wanna give up Chaos Armor/Storm.

-I heard the 1h sword also stacks bleeds really well, I was wondering if this was maybe superior due to the vulnerability debuff on each hit.

- What if you had 3 GS clones, but autoattacked with the staff?

- Did you have the Illusory Elasticity trait on when you tested the Staff?

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Thanks for the tested info, Astus. That is good to know, I had been considering sliding towards GS for the bleeds but I didn’t wanna give up Chaos Armor/Storm.

-I heard the 1h sword also stacks bleeds really well, I was wondering if this was maybe superior due to the vulnerability debuff on each hit.

- What if you had 3 GS clones, but autoattacked with the staff?

- Did you have the Illusory Elasticity trait on when you tested the Staff?

No problem. The 1h sword clones can stack bleeds and vuln nicely and will stay in melee range of target (more effective shatters.) I use the 1h-sword as the alternate weapon to the staff in my condition build because it is a combo finisher, still carries some decent direct damage, and grants some ability to catch enemies. I personally think it is a great main-hand/duel-wield weapon no matter your build. However, I haven’t specifically paid attention to or tested the bleeds that the 1h sword clones stack. After testing the GS and Staff in a condition build, I would reckon that the 1h sword clones would probably be comparable (but not superior) to staff clones for applying condition damage (via bleeds only). I think that 1h sword clones can play a nice role in a condition build for that reason and because they are “in your face”/extremely annoying. However, I like to put out staff clones because of the buffs they give allies and because 2/3 of their hits are guaranteed to apply conditions (burns/bleeds) that scale with your condition damage. Sword clones do apply vuln (which is a static condition) and have the same chance to apply a bleed on critical, but their main attack doesn’t apply a condition that scales with your condition damage, nor do they buff allies.

All in all, whether I have the staff or 1h sword equipped, I don’t hesitate to keep pumping out clones via dodges because having clones that chase you, combined with clones hitting you from range, tends to fluster the enemy more than just having one or the other. And when you shatter, you have clones coming at you from everywhere.

As for having 3 GS clones out while autoattacking with staff – I would recommend against it. From testing, the GS and staff clones are just as effective by themselves; however, the staff clones have the added benefit of buffing allies and seem to make a real difference when your character enters the mix. Further, I don’t think the GS synergizes well with a condition build and having that equipped disables you from using what I consider superior weapons in a condition build – sword/scepter/torch/focus. On the other hand, what may be useful is having 3 staff clones out while using the GS in a power build, as they could grant you constant fury and a lot of stacks of might.

I did have Illusionary Elasticity traited when I did the testing. Keep in mind that this only comes into play when your character enters the mix, as staff clones currently don’t inherit this trait.

Now heres the thing…

As good as the 1h Sword is in a condition build, wouldn’t the Scepter’s Confuse Ray (One of my favorite Pokémon moves) be superior?
In practice, I don’t seem to figure much use from my sword so I recently swapped to the scepter but it feels so.. awkward. On the other hand, with scepter I can easily get 12 stacks of confusion (2k+ damage in sPvP in my build)

… PLEASE tell me I’m just using the sword wrong. I hate the scapter.

Either are viable. Sword just takes some getting used to how to move around with it if you’re used to ranged attacks. What off hand are you using?

Kazhiel.8194:

Either are viable. Sword just takes some getting used to how to move around with it if you’re used to ranged attacks. What off hand are you using?

Torch. Heavy Stealth focus, despite the crappy shatter-fodder phantasm.

I prefer using sword with torch. Try watching Seven Mirror’s videos or Osicat’s to get an idea of how to use the sword. Mesmer has to move in and out of melee range to be most effective, if you try to stand there just hitting stuff it’s not going to go well for you. FLIMP’s video in his guide is with scepter. His is a stealth heavy build also, like Seven’s. Osi’s vids show lots of tactics on how to move when fighting and are worth watching even if you’re not running a shatter/crit build.

Yeah, I agree with the above comments. Rather than repeat things here, I explain my personal preference for the sword in a condition build in the thread linked below (under the WEAPONS heading) if you wanna’ take a read:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Guide-WvW-and-PvE-Condition-Build/first#post1366535

IMO the Sword is almost always superior to the Sceptre no matter what build you go for. While Confusing Images in a condition build sounds great in theory, in practice you will rarely get the full channel off a competent opponent: it takes too long to channel and is too obvious (which is also bad if you’re trying any kind of Clone play).

The Sword on the other hand provides considerably higher base DPS, excellent boon stripping and a short, spammable invulnerability that is much better than the Sceptre’s one-shot Block. You also get a gap-closer and root, which is something condition Mesmers desperately need.

One thing to note about comparing Staff Clones to GS/Sword Clones. Bleeding from Staff Clone WoC and Sharper Images deals less damage than Burning from Staff Clone WoC. If you only look at the number of Bleeding stacks each Clone type can achieve, the condition DPS dealt by Staff Clones is more than double what its Bleeding stacks would suggest.

Oh and Vulnerability doesn’t affect condition damage.

Embolism.8106:

Oh and Vulnerability doesn’t affect condition damage.

It’s worth pointing out that any % dmg increase buff or debuff will not increase condition damage at all. With a certain fractal boss that most probably know makes ya almost useless, at least you can volunteer for switch duty.

The problems with condition mesmers can be summed up with these points.

Condition application – The condition application for this class is possibly one of the worst in the game when looking at the core weapon skills. The staff is our best condition weapon yet it’s auto attack comes with a one in three chance of failing (apply vulnerability), with a full set of staff clones and a target that never dodges or removes conditions it takes awhile to see more than 6 bleed stacks.

Ever since confusion was removed from the scepter auto attack in beta, the clones generated from this weapon would overwrite the more useful staff clones that apply conditions and the sword clones that stack vulnerability and remove boons. At times it feels like the scepter is working against the player.

Phantoms – The only phantom that applies conditions by default is the phantasmal mage and its damage and condition application falls behind that of every other weapon based phantom regardless of the build.

Build diversity – There is only one way to get semi reliable condition application and that is for the mesmer players to limit their build options to just using the rabid amulet and taking the trait sharper images. With the current weapon skills and traits, builds that use shaman, carrion and rampager’s suffer from a lack of condition application and damage.

Traits – The trait deceptive evasion is good for most mesmer builds but because of its tendency to summon clones on the nearest target both shatter and condition builds have problems with it. For condition mesmers our condition application comes from our illusions with clones summed from this trait attacking random AI it cuts out a large portion of our damage. As for shatter mesmers its not as bad since mind wrack is aoe but it still hurts to have illusions shatter away from the intended target. Another trait that’s causing problems is illusionary elasticity the bounce from this trait is still not working for illusions and if it worked would solve most of the problems with condition application by helping staff clones and the phantasmal mage.

Hiki.9310:

The problems with condition mesmers can be summed up with these points.

Condition application – The condition application for this class is possibly one of the worst in the game when looking at the core weapon skills. The staff is our best condition weapon yet it’s auto attack comes with a one in three chance of failing (apply vulnerability), with a full set of staff clones and a target that never dodges or removes conditions it takes awhile to see more than 6 bleed stacks.

Ever since confusion was removed from the scepter auto attack in beta, the clones generated from this weapon would overwrite the more useful staff clones that apply conditions and the sword clones that stack vulnerability and remove boons. At times it feels like the scepter is working against the player.

Phantoms – The only phantom that applies conditions by default is the phantasmal mage and its damage and condition application falls behind that of every other weapon based phantom regardless of the build.

Build diversity – There is only one way to get semi reliable condition application and that is for the mesmer players to limit their build options to just using the rabid amulet and taking the trait sharper images. With the current weapon skills and traits, builds that use shaman, carrion and rampager’s suffer from a lack of condition application and damage.

Traits – The trait deceptive evasion is good for most mesmer builds but because of its tendency to summon clones on the nearest target both shatter and condition builds have problems with it. For condition mesmers our condition application comes from our illusions with clones summed from this trait attacking random AI it cuts out a large portion of our damage. As for shatter mesmers its not as bad since mind wrack is aoe but it still hurts to have illusions shatter away from the intended target. Another trait that’s causing problems is illusionary elasticity the bounce from this trait is still not working for illusions and if it worked would solve most of the problems with condition application by helping staff clones and the phantasmal mage.

I completely agree that two significant issues with the mesmer profession (especially for condition builds) are the failure of the illusionary elasticity trait to transfer to clones, and clones attacking the nearest enemy instead of the character’s target (also causing them to shatter on the wrong target.) I wish we had communication on whether these things are as designed or on the fix list for future patches.

Really, if Illusionary Elasticity worked with Clones it might make condition Mesmers somewhat overpowered, at least compared to other condition builds. It is true that condition Mesmers are subpar when it comes to damaging conditions, but it’s also one of the stronger builds defense-wise thanks to the focus on maintaining Clones and the excellent defensive skills on the Staff.

I do agree however that the Sceptre really needs something more. One of my ideas was to give Ether Clone a very short Blind, which would improve the Sceptre defensively as well as making it a Confusion-based weapon when you take the trait Blinding Befuddlement.

And yes, the Mage needs to be significantly better. Even in a condition build you’re far better off with the Warden or the Duelist, possibly even the Berserker.

Hiki.9310:

Build diversity – There is only one way to get semi reliable condition application and that is for the mesmer players to limit their build options to just using the rabid amulet and taking the trait sharper images. With the current weapon skills and traits, builds that use shaman, carrion and rampager’s suffer from a lack of condition application and damage.

There are 4 general condition builds.

1: Sharper Image spam with clone spam, emphasis on iD and GS clone uptime.
2: Combo field / confusion variant of #1 that abuses iDuelist trait for stacks.
3: Shatter hybrid using Carrion for good MW and Cry numbers, with Elasticity (e.g. does not use precision and gets low Sharper Image output).
4: <insert composite defensive / support build that uses Staff as a primary DPS vector>

There are a few variants of all the builds, primarily related to the usage of Torch and/or Scepter. Prestige will tooltip for >5500 damage of burning with a condition build. Even though it has a long cooldown and is unwieldy, that much potential damage is nothing to sneeze at. Players have noted in the past that Scepter3 has good power scaling “for a condition attack”.

These are all options. There’s also a PvE/WvW versus sPvP discrepancy where Rampager becomes a not-bad option for PvE/WvW (it has moderate CDMG — the sPvP Rampager has low CDMG) if you use shatters for Might (Might will help supplement the slightly lower raw CDMG).

When I get the motivation, I think I will acquire a set of gear for WvW for that build … sigh. kitten kittenty PvE farming. Also kitten WvW queues for good measure >_<.

Embolism.8106:

One of my ideas was to give Ether Clone a very short Blind, which would improve the Sceptre defensively as well as making it a Confusion-based weapon when you take the trait Blinding Befuddlement.

This is a useful idea, although I would say that the Scep3 attack should be slightly reduced in damage while being reduced in cast time as well.

Astus.3508:

clones attacking the nearest enemy instead of the character’s target (also causing them to shatter on the wrong target.) I wish we had communication on whether these things are as designed or on the fix list for future patches.

This only applies for DE clones, and in my personal opinion it’s working as intended.

I wonder how the Scep2 and Sword4 targeting works though (if you have target A selected and block target B, is the clone assigned to A or B? edit: I think it’s A, but not sure).

I rather like DE clones attacking nearest target. It used to bother me at first but I’ve gotten to where I can pretty well get them on the target I want, or close enough that when I shatter it doesn’t matter. There have been times when DE clones randomly attacking some mob in wvw has saved me as they brought a mob in for me to rally off of.

Hey Guys, an interesting offset to use instead of sword torch is sceptor, pistol you can set up the duelist> stun> sceptor 3 attk 3 times or shatter on the spot and switch to staff feels good and is surprisingly good at 1 v 1s

Pistol is the default choice if you’re not going for a stealth-heavy build. Sceptre, not so much: Confusing Images is very easy to counter, you’re far better off using the Sword with its well-rounded skills.