Guild Wars 2

Before the trait changes both these traits were GM and neither one was decent enough to be worthy of a GM position. With the trait changes, both traits are definitely build defining and are worthy of GM.

My opinion is that CS should be left as is and moved to the GM slot along side Power Block and Imagine Burden. Mental Anguish should be moved down to Adept or Master and its damage adjusted.

The combination of CS & Power Block is just too much. And rather then seeing one or both nerfed BACK to uselessness, I’d rather have the option to chose one or the other. And further providing Mesmer’s options in the Domination line.

Uh.. What is it that makes CS & Power Block combined too much?

The more I play the less I see with CS being a problem. In fact, if Mesmer couldn’t 0-100 burst then there wouldn’t be a problem at all.

The bigger issue here is how effective Mesmer can be versus a stunned opponent. The 1s stun out of power block isn’t nearly enough to be worth grandmaster, even with the daze/stun duration increases. Moving it to grandmaster would be the equivalent of nerfing it, no lockdown Mesmer would take it over power block, and shatter Mesmer would still have their crazy wombo bursts.

I’m really starting to get the feeling confounding isn’t as bad as people think. The stun isn’t so bad, the burst in that 1 second is. I’d rather an ICD increase to 10s (and would really rather see Pyro’s suggestion).

A hard CC every 5 seconds at an ADEPT level is too much. Combine that with Power Block and your simply adding “insult” to injury. Any decent Mesmer player can land a daze/stun to trigger an CS/interrupt for Power Block, so now you’ve hard CC’d AND lengthened the CD to 15 seconds. Don’t you think that’s just a little over the top.

If CS stays were it is, it will be nerfed and it will be nerfed to an adept level. Hey I love play lockdown. And I’d like to keep my options.

I’m trying to provide a reasonable option that can be considered WITHOUT neutering the trait.

See, here’s the thing… CS would never be taken over PB. The fact that its used now is that you can combine it with PB to make lockdown strong, not that its suddenly become better. PB is the whole thing that makes lockdown work in Domination. CS wasn’t taken when it was a GM without an ICD with Halting Strike in Adept and it won’t be taken now as a GM with an ICD while competing against PB. Your suggestion, I hate to say, will not work.

SlimChance.6593:

A hard CC every 5 seconds at an ADEPT level is too much. Combine that with Power Block and your simply adding “insult” to injury. Any decent Mesmer player can land a daze/stun to trigger an CS/interrupt for Power Block, so now you’ve hard CC’d AND lengthened the CD to 15 seconds. Don’t you think that’s just a little over the top.

If CS stays were it is, it will be nerfed and it will be nerfed to an adept level. Hey I love play lockdown. And I’d like to keep my options.

I’m trying to provide a reasonable option that can be considered WITHOUT neutering the trait.

I don’t think the “level” of the trait is relevant at all anymore since we’re fully invested in that traitline now (for example restorative illusions is probably stronger than temporal enchanter for the Mesmer his or herself). Sure, we expect the traits to get stronger, but it’s not like someone is making some kind of killer PU condition build and throwing two points into Domination for a stun.

The tiers used to be all about access to a trait with 14 points that we were allowed to spend anywhere. Now we just choose three traitlines and the tiers are called tiers. Notice people are saying “Dom/Duel/Chaos” and not 6/6/6. There aren’t points. And there are no tiers.

CS is was never taken because of the 50% randomness of it. That has been changed to a 100% conversion with a 5 second interval. That and the minor trait Wastrel’s Punishment was worthless.

DE was moved to GM level because it was deemed by Roger/ANet as “Build Defining”. Players know when they getting stunned every 5 seconds. CS as it is now is MORE build defining then Power Block. Power Block is merely the icing on the cake that is CS.

You can take CS with Imagined Burden or Mental Anguish and the enemy wouldn’t notice. The hard cc is what is defining.

So rather then have CS neutered to ineffectiveness, I’d rather see as it is and have it be a valid option for the Mesmer.

Combine CS and wastrel’s punishment as a GM trait.
Mental anguish becomes a 15 or 10 percent shatter damage increase adept trait.

TBH, none of mesmer traits have any function problems. It’s some people who have zero knowledge make it sound like so.

Only need some small tweaks to make things balanced.

PB is build defining because it makes use of all interrupts available, thus defining any Lockdown build no matter what weapons or skills equipped. CS, on the other hand, only makes use of daze which, while we have a lot of, is not our sole source of CC, thus CS is more appropriate to be a secondary lockdown trait than the defining one.

There is a finesse to the new Mesmer specialisations that I have begun to really admire and I’d hate for that to be changed. As you are now locked into a traitline/specialisation each tier needs to have something relevant to the core playstyles of Mesmer (shatter, phantasm, interrupt – condition and support dapple in all three or somehow none – flaming hipsters) or more specifically, the theme of the specialisation itself. If I’m locked into the Domination line, the thematically dedicated interrupt line and want to play as an interrupt Mesmer, some of the finesse of the new system is lost if I have to pick up a phantasm or shatter trait along the way and have to miss out on an interrupt trait. I think this is exactly what the specialisations were trying to prevent.

Confounding Suggestions just needs a little shave like just about everything in the game right now (except burning, no idea what’s going to happen to that). Making it compete with Power Block would be rather odd and go against the logic of the specialisation design.

CS in its current form cannot compete with power block. Almost any lockdown build that would choose CS over a mixture of weakness/halting strike/15s cool down is hurting themselves.

I do agree that CS is strong, but DE as a comparison isn’t exactly correct. DE isn’t build-defining, despite that it used to be necessary in most builds. DE never defined any build that it was in except standard shatter, and even then the signature trait of shatter was iPersona.

DE was required for the ability to shatter properly because without it Mesmer is woefully lacking in clone production. It didn’t define lockdown, shatter, condition, or phantasm the way Chaotic Interruption, iPersona, Prismatic Understanding ECT. did.

And CS, outside of a couple specific Dom/Duel/Chaos or Illusions setups isn’t that strong. Can it be build definining..? Somewhat, I’d say it deserves Master tier. Let it compete with Furious Interrupt and Shattered Concentration.

I agree with CS competing with Shattered Concentration – two powerful traits that will force a tough choice between them, and each one has its merits.

Thanks for everyone’s thoughts. Good points by everyone. I think CS is strong enough to be a GM and go against PB.

First of all, PB is an interrupt trait. It only process on “interrupt”, this requires a timing/luck on the player in order to take advantage of it.

Whereas CS is like a sledge hammer, there is no real skill in it. Daze becomes a stun. That’s it. Yes, the Mesmer needs to watch for enemy dodges and stabilty, etc. But that’s the same for PB.

And by converting those daze’s to stuns, it’s not just MoD that becomes a hammer. There is Chaos Storm, there is Diversion, there is OH Sword, there is Magic Bullet (2nd bounce) All of these become stunning weapons in the Mesmer’s “toolbox”.

They are in a sense, “opposite sides” of the same coin. They both can be considered “lockdown” playstyles. They are different enough and strong enough in there own way to stand alone and offer different play styles.

I never stated that DE was build defining. I stated that “Roger/ANet” said it was “build defining”. Since that is ANet’s definition of a “build defining trait”, how can CS not be “build defining”?

And don’t forget about CI. In the current setup, a Mesmer can grab ALL three PB, CS and CI. Although, I believe doing so would be “wasting” a GM trait, that does not stop a player from doing it. Moving CS up to GM, would again be a more tactical decision on the player.

SlimChance.6593:

Thanks for everyone’s thoughts. Good points by everyone. I think CS is strong enough to be a GM and go against PB.

First of all, PB is an interrupt trait. It only process on “interrupt”, this requires a timing/luck on the player in order to take advantage of it.

Whereas CS is like a sledge hammer, there is no real skill in it. Daze becomes a stun. That’s it. Yes, the Mesmer needs to watch for enemy dodges and stabilty, etc. But that’s the same for PB.

And by converting those daze’s to stuns, it’s not just MoD that becomes a hammer. There is Chaos Storm, there is Diversion, there is OH Sword, there is Magic Bullet (2nd bounce) All of these become stunning weapons in the Mesmer’s “toolbox”.

They are in a sense, “opposite sides” of the same coin. They both can be considered “lockdown” playstyles. They are different enough and strong enough in there own way to stand alone and offer different play styles.

I never stated that DE was build defining. I stated that “Roger/ANet” said it was “build defining”. Since that is ANet’s definition of a “build defining trait”, how can CS not be “build defining”?

And don’t forget about CI. In the current setup, a Mesmer can grab ALL three PB, CS and CI. Although, I believe doing so would be “wasting” a GM trait, that does not stop a player from doing it. Moving CS up to GM, would again be a more tactical decision on the player.

I get your points, but here’s why I think CS isn’t powerful enough to be GM:
What is a stun besides a daze that stops movement for a small time? It is a powerful break in combat, I agree, but in that same category with the 5s ICD one can say that your chance of interrupting and thus proccing the immob on CI is just as effective. I don’t believe that anyone will give up the powerful option of landing definitive interrupts in a fight for removing movement every five seconds. The theoretical value of the traits’ strength puts PB as a clear leader over CS.

I like the idea that was tossed around a few days ago to make CS function like Ineptitude – ie, 10s ICD per foe.

So you’d still have great teamfight potential with it, but it wouldn’t be OP in 1v1 situations.

Dondagora.9645:

SlimChance.6593:

Thanks for everyone’s thoughts. Good points by everyone. I think CS is strong enough to be a GM and go against PB.

First of all, PB is an interrupt trait. It only process on “interrupt”, this requires a timing/luck on the player in order to take advantage of it.

Whereas CS is like a sledge hammer, there is no real skill in it. Daze becomes a stun. That’s it. Yes, the Mesmer needs to watch for enemy dodges and stabilty, etc. But that’s the same for PB.

And by converting those daze’s to stuns, it’s not just MoD that becomes a hammer. There is Chaos Storm, there is Diversion, there is OH Sword, there is Magic Bullet (2nd bounce) All of these become stunning weapons in the Mesmer’s “toolbox”.

They are in a sense, “opposite sides” of the same coin. They both can be considered “lockdown” playstyles. They are different enough and strong enough in there own way to stand alone and offer different play styles.

I never stated that DE was build defining. I stated that “Roger/ANet” said it was “build defining”. Since that is ANet’s definition of a “build defining trait”, how can CS not be “build defining”?

And don’t forget about CI. In the current setup, a Mesmer can grab ALL three PB, CS and CI. Although, I believe doing so would be “wasting” a GM trait, that does not stop a player from doing it. Moving CS up to GM, would again be a more tactical decision on the player.

I get your points, but here’s why I think CS isn’t powerful enough to be GM:
What is a stun besides a daze that stops movement for a small time? It is a powerful break in combat, I agree, but in that same category with the 5s ICD one can say that your chance of interrupting and thus proccing the immob on CI is just as effective. I don’t believe that anyone will give up the powerful option of landing definitive interrupts in a fight for removing movement every five seconds. The theoretical value of the traits’ strength puts PB as a clear leader over CS.

“Stun” has more applications than just interrupting. I can use it to catch a runner, or prevent a player from joining a fight/capping a point, etc. Use it to setup a full 4 clone shatter. Keep a player in position while I blur frenzy/Chaos Storm./Chrono Wells..any AOE. Stop a rez..

PB damages and adds a cool down to one skill, if I land an “interrupt”.

Some might even consider CS as more powerful than PB.

I’m trying to come up with a solution before CS gets the nerf hammer and it gets reverted back to what it was. Or worse. I think making it a GM, is a good choice.

I don’t know exactly what to do with CS, but I never necessarily thought it was a good idea to move it out of the Adept category. For example, if you replaced furious interruptions with CS, what would you place in the previous spot of CS? I just don’t think FI goes in the adept category. To me it just doesn’t seem to synergies as well and fit the whole “domination” theme. Sure, it revolves around interruption, but thats about it. Therefore, I think changing the cool down and leaving it where it is at now is probably the best option so far.

Please, for the love of god, don’t give Anet any ideas

As someone pointed out the real QQ is from people getting shattered to death. That is mostly due to the stat change (more to equip and 0 from traits). This means most people have less hp and hit harder in wvw and pvp. That combined with ip given out as free make burst damage high.

Nerfing CS and power block will not solve the problem all it will do is make people stop playing interrupt build and go all out for more shatter damage which will make things even worse for the whiners.

The REAL problem is all the cele players are used to just random mash buttons and face tank. Now they have to watch for a burst setup and use active ability to avoid it and they don’t know how. I have duelled a bit in the last few days , most of the good players regardless of the class have figured out how to avoid the stealth burst. Heck I fought another mesmer myself for over 5 mins and we manage to live through each others bursts just fine even though we are both zerker power shatter speced.

For a far more comprehensive and well thought-out solution to CS, please take a look at my suggestion found here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Confounding-Suggestions-Suggestion/first#post5204814

Or you can continue to have an intelligent discussion on a logical and reasonable solution that has a higher probability of implementation, right here.

SlimChance.6593:

Or you can continue to have an intelligent discussion on a logical and reasonable solution that has a higher probability of implementation, right here.

I’m not particularly worried about chances of implementation. I’m more worried about if something is implemented, having that something be a reasonable solution, not something that would massacre the trait synergy that interrupt mesmers enjoy right now.

Then we are in agreement.

I will have to disagree with you here. The problem isn’t Power Block combined with CS. The problem isn’t even that you get a hard CC every 5s. The problem is that the aforementioned hard CC has 0 counter play when used with MoD. Do you nerf MoD? Of course not. You rebalance CS. The ideas given here would be a fantastic fix to a slightly overpowered trait: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Confounding-Suggestions-Suggestion/first#post5204814

10s icd (I would even be ok with 15) based on individual targets would nerf the single-target lockdown capabilities while buffing our ability to lockdown multiple targets at the same time. This is what CS should be.

SlimChance.6593:

Before the trait changes both these traits were GM and neither one was decent enough to be worthy of a GM position. With the trait changes, both traits are definitely build defining and are worthy of GM.

My opinion is that CS should be left as is and moved to the GM slot along side Power Block and Imagine Burden. Mental Anguish should be moved down to Adept or Master and its damage adjusted.

The combination of CS & Power Block is just too much. And rather then seeing one or both nerfed BACK to uselessness, I’d rather have the option to chose one or the other. And further providing Mesmer’s options in the Domination line.

Yeah, give me an even worse choice of GM’s for PvE.

I hate you pvp people. Just ask for a damage reduction aura or nerf berserker amulets in your crappy game format, why should a class that’s bottom tier dps in PvE suffer because your pvp format is poorly balanced.

Your right, here’s even a better idea!

Keep Mental Anguish where it is. Move CS to GM and Power Block to Master.

Why??? Because everyone’s favorite BFF the Thief. How many posts have there been on Power Block and Thief’s initiative? Why should a single profession(possibly Revenant as well) have immunity to a GRANDMASTER trait?

Yes it was nice that Power Block now adds weakness, but it is still on “interrupt”. How often do you really “interrupt” a thief? And is weakness really GM worthy when you do? They just Consume Plasma twice and be right as rain.

Right now, if your going to duel a thief, would you pick “Power Block” as your GM?

Shouldn’t a GM be just as powerful and build defining no matter the enemy?

So instead of getting ANet to re-design the thief initiative system, knock PB down to Master where it is better suited, reduce the cooldown effect back to 10.

CS goes to GM and stays the same and become a tactical decision between Imagine Burden and Mental Anguish.

Move Furious Interruptions to Adept.

@MailMail Your right, that is the issue. I’m afraid that CS being an “Adept” level trait is TOO powerful even with a 10 second ICD. And if CS stays at adept level, it will be adjust accordingly. By making CS a GM, it’s power is “justified” and has a greater chance of staying as is.

SlimChance.6593:

Some might even consider CS as more powerful than PB.

I’m trying to come up with a solution before CS gets the nerf hammer and it gets reverted back to what it was. Or worse. I think making it a GM, is a good choice.

Number one. I don’t know who thinks CS is more powerful than PB? I don’t think I’d even notice if CS got completely removed. And I know of a few others that agree with me. You are comparing apples to oranges. I think one good idea if anything on this should be changed (and IMO none of it should be changed.) Is to make CS a stun when you interrupt an opponent with a daze. That way it isn’t guaranteed to stun if the person isn’t spamming skills. Another thing to keep in mind right now Everyone and there effing mother is running full glass, max damage one shot specs. Eles, guards, mesmers, thieves, necros, and warriors. Are all experimenting with extremely high DPS builds.

The QQ and the nerfs should not be happening now. Not to mention if you look at this last weeks ESL. No team was running more than one mesmer. And even then the teams that did have mesmer for the most part only did “okay.” I didn’t finish the EU ESL but I think they won with that mesmer. I don’t think however the mesmer is the reason they won.

So yeah. The QQ and nerf calling needs to stop.

@Zenith
Ok, let’s try to avoid frontal attacks. I don’t think mesmer is a particularly difficult class to balance PvE and PvP separately. PvE is defined by phantasm builds while phantasms really don’t live long in PvP. So they could easily buff mesmer PvE DPS without completely destroying the PvP balance. I am not sure exactly why they don’t do it, but it could be
1-they don’t care about PvE
2-they want to redefine PvE as not only DPS-maxing but also a challenging experience where mesmer utilities will shine

I (naively) believe it is reason 2. They don’t see mesmer as a DPS-maxer but as a utility wizard, and that is already the reason we are still somewhat “meta” for PvE. We have gained new good and interesting support (distortion sharing for ex) which makes us even more relevant in this role.

Now I agree, the GM currently look uninspiring for PvE, but it may change with the new defiance system (not sure about that but one can hope) or with “challenging group content” whatever that end-up being.

Ok now I see this all monologue does not fit in the subject…

More in the subject, I’m quite ignorant on this: why is a stun so much better than a daze? The daze is already a strong CC, no?

Silverkey.2078:

More in the subject, I’m quite ignorant on this: why is a stun so much better than a daze? The daze is already a strong CC, no?

Daze allows movement; dodging in particular. Stun does not.

SlimChance.6593:

Yes it was nice that Power Block now adds weakness, but it is still on “interrupt”. How often do you really “interrupt” a thief? And is weakness really GM worthy when you do? They just Consume Plasma twice and be right as rain.

I interrupt thieves nearly 90% of the times I use an interrupt. They spam attacks so regularly that you can even “accidentally” interrupt them.

Right now, if your going to duel a thief, would you pick “Power Block” as your GM?

If I’m going to duel a thief, I’m going to choose Blinding Dissipation and profit. That evens the playing field entirely, making their chances of beating you 60% instead of 90%. And most thieves aren’t as skilled as Mesmers, so that right there evens the playing field even more.

Shouldn’t a GM be just as powerful and build defining no matter the enemy?

No. Some gms directly counter certain builds. That’s why we have many to choose from. See Diamond Skin and how it counters every condi build using a Rabid or Settler’s Amulet. I get the frustration about Power Block in reference to thieves, but it now does decently well against thieves due to weakness and dmg.

@MailMail Your right, that is the issue. I’m afraid that CS being an “Adept” level trait is TOO powerful even with a 10 second ICD. And if CS stays at adept level, it will be adjust accordingly. By making CS a GM, it’s power is “justified” and has a greater chance of staying as is.

There’s no justifying a 5 second hard CC with no counterplay. There’s a sensible way to balance it. It’s a matter of if Anet will listen or not. I think it’d be better to rally around the ideas suggested, because you know Anet is going to nerf it eventually.

MailMail.6534:

SlimChance.6593:

Yes it was nice that Power Block now adds weakness, but it is still on “interrupt”. How often do you really “interrupt” a thief? And is weakness really GM worthy when you do? They just Consume Plasma twice and be right as rain.

I interrupt thieves nearly 90% of the times I use an interrupt. They spam attacks so regularly that you can even “accidentally” interrupt them.

Right now, if your going to duel a thief, would you pick “Power Block” as your GM?

If I’m going to duel a thief, I’m going to choose Blinding Dissipation and profit. That evens the playing field entirely, making their chances of beating you 60% instead of 90%. And most thieves aren’t as skilled as Mesmers, so that right there evens the playing field even more.

Shouldn’t a GM be just as powerful and build defining no matter the enemy?

No. Some gms directly counter certain builds. That’s why we have many to choose from. See Diamond Skin and how it counters every condi build using a Rabid or Settler’s Amulet. I get the frustration about Power Block in reference to thieves, but it now does decently well against thieves due to weakness and dmg.

@MailMail Your right, that is the issue. I’m afraid that CS being an “Adept” level trait is TOO powerful even with a 10 second ICD. And if CS stays at adept level, it will be adjust accordingly. By making CS a GM, it’s power is “justified” and has a greater chance of staying as is.

There’s no justifying a 5 second hard CC with no counterplay. There’s a sensible way to balance it. It’s a matter of if Anet will listen or not. I think it’d be better to rally around the ideas suggested, because you know Anet is going to nerf it eventually.

The CC is virtually of no issue in any other build that isn’t berserker.

The damage berserker stats are putting out while being coupled with CC is the problem, not the CC itself.

Why do you want to gut the skills when the obvious problem is that players can achieve inordinate amounts of crit damage bonus and crit chance plus % damage modifiers in a PvP setting where vitality and toughness values don’t enjoy the same multipliers/scaling.

Zenith.7301:

The CC is virtually of no issue in any other build that isn’t berserker.

The damage berserker stats are putting out while being coupled with CC is the problem, not the CC itself.

Why do you want to gut the skills when the obvious problem is that players can achieve inordinate amounts of crit damage bonus and crit chance plus % damage modifiers in a PvP setting where vitality and toughness values don’t enjoy the same multipliers/scaling.

This is factually wrong. I speak from experience when I say the CC from CS helps my support signet build a lot. In the way of conquest, hard CC is valuable in any build if you’re able to realistically take it. btw, I use Cleric’s Amulet.

No one is advocating that the skill be gutted. Can you please give a quote suggesting such? Otherwise, those claims appear to be hyperbole and conjecture. Hmm those are two nouns I’ve had to use a lot the last two days on the forums.

You do bring up a great point. Players are doing a lot of insane damage. This is a fundamental issue that needs to be looked at with a critical eye. Outside of bugs, this should be anet’s priority #1. It still doesn’t address the issue of CS combined with MoD having a short CD that prevents counterplay. Until perma dodge/aegis/stability becomes a thing, 5 seconds is just too short.

MailMail.6534:

Zenith.7301:

The CC is virtually of no issue in any other build that isn’t berserker.

The damage berserker stats are putting out while being coupled with CC is the problem, not the CC itself.

Why do you want to gut the skills when the obvious problem is that players can achieve inordinate amounts of crit damage bonus and crit chance plus % damage modifiers in a PvP setting where vitality and toughness values don’t enjoy the same multipliers/scaling.

This is factually wrong. I speak from experience when I say the CC from CS helps my support signet build a lot. In the way of conquest, hard CC is valuable in any build if you’re able to realistically take it. btw, I use Cleric’s Amulet.

No one is advocating that the skill be gutted. Can you please give a quote suggesting such? Otherwise, those claims appear to be hyperbole and conjecture. Hmm those are two nouns I’ve had to use a lot the last two days on the forums.

You do bring up a great point. Players are doing a lot of insane damage. This is a fundamental issue that needs to be looked at with a critical eye. Outside of bugs, this should be anet’s priority #1. It still doesn’t address the issue of CS combined with MoD having a short CD that prevents counterplay. Until perma dodge/aegis/stability becomes a thing, 5 seconds is just too short.

I didn’t say it didn’t help. I said giving the mantra a greater recast timer IS gutting the skill. In PvE the sword offhand #4 is an interrupt on a 10 sec cd— if the mantra, which needs to be channeled after 3 uses, does no damage on its own, carries a longer cooldown, I have virtually no incentive to use it ever on PvE.

The use of MoD in PvE is quick stripping of defiance or reliable and frequent interrupts.

Your support signet build with the mantra isn’t winning anybody tournaments in spvp, much less winning the higher tiers of competition.

This is a talking point pvp players keep parroting, that things should have cast times and counterplay, but we don’t see neither a cast time or counterplay claim to skills like blink or instant stealth in decoy use (and stealth virtually has little to no counters, just prediction games). The fact is, neither cast times nor counterplay are required for every instance in the game when it comes to pvp.

CS and PB and MoD only become a problem with berserker stats and the current state of burst. If Mindwracks aren’t critting people for 12k, people wouldn’t be complaining about the combo. The problematic part of a combo is that a mesmer can combo a stun into either a 1 or 2-shot hit, if the combo only took 1/4 of your life you would bet the forum would be more silent about it.

The proposals you make for the skill are extraneous and harm more than help, affecting non-berserker builds alike for which this combo is not broken.

I didn’t say it didn’t help. I said giving the mantra a greater recast timer IS gutting the skill. In PvE the sword offhand #4 is an interrupt on a 10 sec cd— if the mantra, which needs to be channeled after 3 uses, does no damage on its own, carries a longer cooldown, I have virtually no incentive to use it ever on PvE.

ooops. We’re talking about different things now. Confusion too stronk. Sorry! I don’t use MoD in my Signet build. I use CS, which is what I was referring to. Just to clarify, no one is suggesting a change to MoD or increasing its CD or anything. The focus is on CS and its ICD.

The use of MoD in PvE is quick stripping of defiance or reliable and frequent interrupts.

You must excuse my obvious ignorance as I do not PvE. I assume you dislike the proposed change to CS having a multi target 10s icd, because for bosses, stuns chip defiance more than daze?

The stun on daze isn’t inherently overpowered in most builds, for example some sword/staff build like mesmer used a long time ago. However, which the massive burst that comes with the greatsword, it does become a bit over the top (mainly because of mirror blade and maybe zerker). It is hard to chance greatsword without destroying it so i do think changing either CS, MoD or both is needed. To be honest, almost all dazes on mesmer has counterplay except for the mantra. Even IP diversion can be avoided by not staying in melee range.

MailMail.6534:

I didn’t say it didn’t help. I said giving the mantra a greater recast timer IS gutting the skill. In PvE the sword offhand #4 is an interrupt on a 10 sec cd— if the mantra, which needs to be channeled after 3 uses, does no damage on its own, carries a longer cooldown, I have virtually no incentive to use it ever on PvE.

ooops. We’re talking about different things now. Confusion too stronk. Sorry! I don’t use MoD in my Signet build. I use CS, which is what I was referring to. Just to clarify, no one is suggesting a change to MoD or increasing its CD or anything. The focus is on CS and its ICD.

The use of MoD in PvE is quick stripping of defiance or reliable and frequent interrupts.

You must excuse my obvious ignorance as I do not PvE. I assume you dislike the proposed change to CS having a multi target 10s icd, because for bosses, stuns chip defiance more than daze?

With the new system it will be on a stronger tier, yes. And the fact is outside spvp most mesmers won’t be tab targeting mobs to stun with CS.

SlimChance.6593:

Why??? Because everyone’s favorite BFF the Thief. How many posts have there been on Power Block and Thief’s initiative? Why should a single profession(possibly Revenant as well) have immunity to a GRANDMASTER trait?

Yes it was nice that Power Block now adds weakness, but it is still on “interrupt”. How often do you really “interrupt” a thief? And is weakness really GM worthy when you do? They just Consume Plasma twice and be right as rain.

Right now, if your going to duel a thief, would you pick “Power Block” as your GM?

Shouldn’t a GM be just as powerful and build defining no matter the enemy?

Power Block incorporates the old Halting Strike damage.

So it is, in fact, SRS BSNS even against thieves.

Even without CS/CI, a single good Power Block interrupt can totally turn a fight against a thief. It’s a great trait all around and pretty much the crown jewel of Domination (which is right, and proper, and don’t change that).

Zenith.7301:

This is a talking point pvp players keep parroting, that things should have cast times and counterplay, but we don’t see neither a cast time or counterplay claim to skills like blink or instant stealth in decoy use (and stealth virtually has little to no counters, just prediction games). The fact is, neither cast times nor counterplay are required for every instance in the game when it comes to pvp.

Skills are generally offensive or defensive in nature. Many offensive spells/abilities are given a cast time so that you have time to react to them. Defensive skills need to be instant since you only have a small window of opportunity to counteract an offensive ability. That is why people complain about abilities like Sword daze which is a defensive spell but is clunky to use because it has a cast time.

Skills like Blink/Decoy are instant because they were created to be defensive in nature. They are used to counter or avoid an attack. They can also be used offensively (e.g. stealth to setup a burst) but the abilities themselves do no damage so no one complains about it.

MoD was always instant and no one cared about it pre-patch but with increased DPS across the board and the stun portion added to the spell after the patch, it allows mesmers to have a much easier time bursting people down. If mesmers could stun you every 5 seconds but couldn’t capitalize on it, I don’t think anyone would really call the skill OP.

Even though I think the skill borderlines on being OP, I am hesitant on suggesting a change to it because I can see that its already losing some of its effectiveness as players are learning to adapt to it. (I think the distinctive sound of MoD is deeply ingrained in everyones mind by now and you instantly go on alert as soon as you hear it.) Plus damage may be adjusted and we may see more options for people to survive bursts provided to us (e.g. amulets with vitality) down the line so that mesmers are not going to have as easy a time bursting someone down by just spamming this skill.

Ideally, we want to settle these core/broader scope issues first before adjusting a skill that may later no longer really need the adjustment.

Zenith.7301:

MailMail.6534:

I didn’t say it didn’t help. I said giving the mantra a greater recast timer IS gutting the skill. In PvE the sword offhand #4 is an interrupt on a 10 sec cd— if the mantra, which needs to be channeled after 3 uses, does no damage on its own, carries a longer cooldown, I have virtually no incentive to use it ever on PvE.

ooops. We’re talking about different things now. Confusion too stronk. Sorry! I don’t use MoD in my Signet build. I use CS, which is what I was referring to. Just to clarify, no one is suggesting a change to MoD or increasing its CD or anything. The focus is on CS and its ICD.

The use of MoD in PvE is quick stripping of defiance or reliable and frequent interrupts.

You must excuse my obvious ignorance as I do not PvE. I assume you dislike the proposed change to CS having a multi target 10s icd, because for bosses, stuns chip defiance more than daze?

With the new system it will be on a stronger tier, yes. And the fact is outside spvp most mesmers won’t be tab targeting mobs to stun with CS.

Literally, the only skill that requires you to target multiple enemies for daze/stun is Diversion (if not traited). Chaos Storm is Aoe. Magic Bullet is a bounce. Sword 4 dazes in a line. MoD is Aoe.

I say this to say, is adding 5 seconds to the CD of CS and making it based on individual targets gamebreaking in terms of this Defiance mechanic in PvE? My guts says no, but since you have more experience in that game format, I’m interested in your opinion.