Guild Wars 2

With the news of the new specializations, it appears certain existing traits will become default for each profession. For mesmers, the biggest considerations we woud care about would certainly be deceptive evasion or illusionary persona.

On recent higher tier player twitch streams there has been quite a bit of discussion on adding default profession mechanics, such as DE, Evasive Arcana (ele) and Cleansing Ire (warrior), among others. These players don’t think changes like these would be harmfully impactful to the game and that’s a good sign because yes, we all know the devs listen to them.

It’s somewhat hard to have this discussion not understanding fully how the new specialization system will work, but if given a choice, which trait would you choose to be default?

I could no longer play mesmer without DE. Love this trait, without it, my builds feel very naked

DE is just too a good defense, which can be used for an offensive gameplay. I like it, more than IP.

If, by default, we mean it to replace one of the “passive” traits in our lines (the ones no one really looks at because you no choice in whether or not you want it) then I would pick DE. The majority of the builds we see have DE in them and clones (as well as their creation) are crucial to the mesmer. I feel like IP is less crucial since it tends to be build specific, though, I would find it interesting if it became a default trait.

I’d have to agree with DE. That trait’s far too essential for most builds. At least IP, strong as it might be, is more of an “option.”

DE. IP feels essential only if you’ve played nothing but shatter.

While DE is nice, and if I had a choice, I’d chose DE..

I think that IP would make more sense as a default ability. I think the Mesmer should count as a shatter by default.

However, seeing as how they made Aquatic Benevolence (Grandmaster XIII for Eles) into a minor, I could see that easily happening to DE.

DE of course.

(but both would be interesting)

DE, its more important for a lot more builds than IP.

Something has to be done for DE or else the other dueling master traits will basically be deleted from the game.

Deceptive Evasion, of course.

DE can never be innate because it would make all phantasm builds unworkable in principle.

The existing problem with DE is that it is vitally important to achieve the clone production necessary to fuel all clone death and shatter variants but is a master major trait (requiring a 20 point investment in dueling by default).

Contrast this with Inspired Virtue or Justice is Blind which are game changing Guardian traits but both are adept minors (requiring only a 5 point investment in virtues and radiance respectively). From what I could gather from the specializations update, point investment wont be a thing anymore so thats half the problem gone anyway?

IP can be innate and arguably should have been from the beginning.

Besetment.9187:

DE can never be innate because it would make all phantasm based builds unworkable in principle.

IP can be innate and arguably should have been from the beginning.

Not really. It’s pretty hard to maintain 3 phantasms without overwriting one with a clone, given that so many weapon skills produce them. (Not that it isn’t possible, just difficult.)

And that also being said, there’s not a ton of use for 3-phantasm builds these days.

However, maybe they could code it so DE doesn’t activate if 3 phantasms are up. Would solve all issues.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

While DE is nice, and if I had a choice, I’d chose DE..

I think that IP would make more sense as a default ability. I think the Mesmer should count as a shatter by default.

However, seeing as how they made Aquatic Benevolence (Grandmaster XIII for Eles) into a minor, I could see that easily happening to DE.

I would really hope this happens for IP not DE. Having IP as a minor would never hurt any build. It could also open up an combos with imbued diversion or maim the disillusioned as well.

Having DE as a minor though would be really painful for PvE phantasm builds. Even if it makes other major traits of the same tier “dead” for PvP it would prevent further harm to PvE mesmer.

Bunda.2691:

However, maybe they could code it so DE doesn’t activate if 3 phantasms are up. Would solve all issues.

That might work…

Bunda.2691:

However, maybe they could code it so DE doesn’t activate if 3 phantasms are up. Would solve all issues.

And Anet would never do that either. It’s too logical and therefore they cannot add such a fair balance to our beloved class. Thou shalt overwrite phantasms with clones if you dodge, whether inadvertently or not. =[ I think, supposedly, Anet was going to introduce something like this some months back and then never did, but it was something more to the effect of if you had three clones/phantoms up already then you couldn’t spawn anything new.

Huh, really? You must be able to overwrite illusions. If you could not do this, what would happen if the fight moves and all your phantasms are totally out of position? Overwriting a phantasm thats out of position with one thats in position is the ideal scenario. If thats not possible due to cooldowns, then popping a clone in position is better than keeping a phantasm thats nowhere and doing nothing. At least you can instant shatter the clone.

Obviously DE. We’d see so much more build diversity and viability with this one change.

From a mechanical perspective IP makes the most sense. It enhances the action you’re performing rather than adding an alternate effect. There may be situations where you want to play the build without summoning an illusion when you dodge an attack, but if you’re hitting a shatter then with IP all you’re doing is enhancing the wanted effect rather than creating an alternate effect that could cause issues.

However, they’re in different paths so I don’t see why it would need to be one or the other.

I like the IP trait more than DE, but I PvE and DE can get me into trouble. I’d like to see IP added as a mesmer innate ability over DE.

My vote is for DE. As much as people think it will kill builds that don’t need it. It is really really really hard to hold three phantasms/clones up in high level PvE without DE. So yea remove the trait. And make DE part of our class mechanic.

Dastion.3106:

From a mechanical perspective IP makes the most sense. It enhances the action you’re performing rather than adding an alternate effect. There may be situations where you want to play the build without summoning an illusion when you dodge an attack, but if you’re hitting a shatter then with IP all you’re doing is enhancing the wanted effect rather than creating an alternate effect that could cause issues.

However, they’re in different paths so I don’t see why it would need to be one or the other.

Totally agree with this.

Hoping for IP, enhances the class mechanic and promotes active play

Dastion.3106:

From a mechanical perspective IP makes the most sense. It enhances the action you’re performing rather than adding an alternate effect. There may be situations where you want to play the build without summoning an illusion when you dodge an attack, but if you’re hitting a shatter then with IP all you’re doing is enhancing the wanted effect rather than creating an alternate effect that could cause issues.

I think getting DE as an innate trait would feel best from the perspective of low-level Mesmers, but this argument in favour of getting IP as an innate trait does make a lot of sense. IP is always beneficial, DE sometimes overwrites phantasms. Unless clones stop overwriting phantasms, that makes IP the trait that would be a no-brainer in every build, while DE is actually a little bit situational. (Even if that “situation” is most of the game outside of dungeons.)

DE would remove phantasm builds.

tobascodagama.2961:

IP is always beneficial, DE sometimes overwrites phantasms. Unless clones stop overwriting phantasms, that makes IP the trait that would be a no-brainer in every build, while DE is actually a little bit situational. (Even if that “situation” is most of the game outside of dungeons.)

This. I would hate for my needed dodges in a dungeon to overwrite my phantoms. IP is useful in ALL forms of play…DE is really only useful for a shatter mesmer in certain areas of the game, well maybe other specs too but I found it to be sort of annoying to have to watch my dodges to not overwrite my heavy hitters. If they stop making clones overwrite, then DE would be a lot more useful.

DE, but only if clones stop overwriting phantasms.

DE just can’t be a trait anymore unless they improve our method of clone production. To avoid problems with phantasm builds, they could make it a signet or even a mantra. As a signet, it could be the passive and therefore be a choice when you use the signet ability. This would make DE much more of a choice while also making “passive”.

IP just really feels like a true GM trait. There’s no way it should be passive imo.

I think DE would work just fine in Phantasm builds if it simply did not create a clone on-dodge if you had 3 phantasms up.

Of the two, I’d prefer DE be baseline.

Illusionary Persona is much less useful (useless even) in a phantasm or clone-death build.

It’s been very interesting reading the responses.

We as a community have been historically on the DE train. We’ve had a lot of discussion on how DE could be made default. When you enter IP into the mix though, it becomes much more complicated. I don’t think we’ve really ever thought this way.

Having IP default means you have more raw trait points in general comparison with what you gain when DE is default. With DE, lots of builds open up. Here’s the thing though. If you get DE “free”, you are generally only given one, maybe two extra trait points to work with. This said because most of the time you’re going to find 2 in dueling for long range manipulations (blink) in many builds.

With IP default, it’s interesting what happens. Of course you still need to take DE but now you potentially have 6 trait points to spend (shatter builds ofc). Immediately you have builds that go 6 into inspiration to take shattered conditions or restorative illusions while still inflicting some amazing shatter damage. Or, you keep 6 in illusions and MtD becomes much stronger. Imbued Diversion is able to be added to the standard shatter build, despite the fact it should be default.

I understand getting IP as default more affects shatter builds but I’d like to provide a couple examples where this argument becomes quite compelling.

Take the standard CI lockdown build, 4/4/6. Receiving DE as default opens up arguably 2 points. You could put those in domination for Confounding Suggestions or Power Block, decent choices. Contrast that with having IP default. I genuinely would like to know, would a default IP be more beneficial or desired than being able to grab CS or PB? It’s definitely not an easy choice.

Take standard PU, again 4/4/6. Receiving DE as default you get, again two points to spend elsewhere. Where is there a compelling place to put them, especially with the three trait lines we’re locked into with specializations? Not only that, wouldn’t IP be more useful?

How about Mind Crush (6/4/4) or Shatterlock (6/2/0/0/6)? With IP default you have some amazing options in front of you. With DE default you simply don’t have as many.

I can’t say for certain how many builds would open up in either case but I do think the decision isn’t cut and dried.

I think the “more trait points” points is moot moving to the Specialization system. I don’t believe that is the case any more with it. At most, I believe it becomes “freed up Master versus Grandmaster”

Sebrent.3625:

I think the “more trait points” points is moot moving to the Specialization system. I don’t believe that is the case any more with it. At most, I believe it becomes “freed up Master versus Grandmaster”

Yes that’s true at that point. Getting IP means essentially freeing up more grandmaster choices, or choosing to not going into Illusions at all.

I want both! But DE might be a problem for mesmers in pve. And Diversion AoE, please.

I’ve honestly been running around lately under the concept of “Let’s assume IP is overrated … let’s not use it and see what we can do”.

This has freed me up for other builds that leverage a traited focus which is probably one of the most underrated weapons in the game due to its phantasm.

Amusingly, I’ve been inducing rage in even dual melee warriors with it.

The use of IP for the other shatters is pretty obvious, but has anyone ever actually done the math for how much extra damage we get from IP? The damage per clone is less and less for Mind Wrack as you go from 1 to 2 to 3 clones. IP just makes you the +1 clone up to 4. Going with that trend, it’s an even worse damage per clone than a 3 clone shatter … obviously doing more, but going from 1 to 2 or 2 to 3 would be a larger increase.

Sebrent.3625:

I’ve honestly been running around lately under the concept of “Let’s assume IP is overrated … let’s not use it and see what we can do”.

This has freed me up for other builds that leverage a traited focus which is probably one of the most underrated weapons in the game due to its phantasm.

Amusingly, I’ve been inducing rage in even dual melee warriors with it.

The use of IP for the other shatters is pretty obvious, but has anyone ever actually done the math for how much extra damage we get from IP? The damage per clone is less and less for Mind Wrack as you go from 1 to 2 to 3 clones. IP just makes you the +1 clone up to 4. Going with that trend, it’s an even worse damage per clone than a 3 clone shatter … obviously doing more, but going from 1 to 2 or 2 to 3 would be a larger increase.

Well sure, but you didn’t count:

- 1 more diversion
- 1 more second to distorsion
- centered on yourself. For Diversion especially, that’s the only thing saving me from thieves most of the time.

You can do without it, but it’s definitely not overrated.

Edit: I forgot to mention that power shatter is all about burst. So you don’t want your mind wrack to be 4-clones all the time for max damage: you want it to hit! For example, the Prestige → GS2 → Blink → MW opener is actually a 2 clones shatter, including IP. And it insta-kill stuff, which is the goal. If you’re aiming for sustained damage, there probably are better options.

skcamow.3527:

… Having IP default means you have more raw trait points in general comparison with what you gain when DE is default. …

Your arguments are sound but I feel that your main assumption falls pretty flat. Looking at the new trait system it’s no longer about traitpoints rather than picking traitlines. You could argue that one is Master and the other is Grandmaster, but regardless there won’t be any “point advantage” for IP. (Edit: My bad, has already been brought up. To hyped because of the stream. )

I feel the most important question is: Which trait feels more mandatory? As it is now (might change in a few minutes when we watch the stream) I feel that DE is more crucial – maybe even mandatory – for a larger amount of builds than IP.

Those thoughts aside, IP is quite obviously way easier to make baseline than DE.

@Sorel:
Aye, I’m well aware the benefits of IP. Been around for while ;-)

The thing is, you see several people that prefer power builds (especially zerk) treating IP as an auto-include.

Obviously it is “more damage” … more Confusion … more Daze (and more reliable if in melee) … 1 more sec on Distortion.

The “more damage” is what I’m most curious about … I’ve never seen someone investigate “how much more” … just everyone nods their heads and says “it does more damage” … because it has electrolytes and electrolytes are what plants need :-p

So. DE is now a grandmaster. If you wanted to run a mantra build good luck. Because you still need DE.

jportell.2197:

So. DE is now a grandmaster. If you wanted to run a mantra build good luck. Because you still need DE.

But we have IP, for now

Skcamow change the title right the eff now.

IP is confirmed baseline! Tia a glorious day!

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Skcamow change the title right the eff now.

IP is confirmed baseline! Tia a glorious day!

Well, they’re not set in stone though. I’m not ready to give up if DE is the better choice!

The way they have it set up now with DE being grandmaster and IP as default is perfect.

Opens up traits that DE overshadowed in the major class.

IP as default…best day ever! No more having to go down a full line for that awesome trait…my mesmer wants to squee with joy

They can’t make DE baseline because it would overwrite phantasms, which would be terrible for all of those phantasm builds that no one uses.

Just to clear up any possible confusion.

DE and phantasm is only a problem with 3 phantasms out. When DE overwrites an illusion it prioritizes clones. i.e.

Spawn iBerzerker and iWarlock and Phase Retreat for a clone. When you dodge with DE it will overwrite the clone.

Spawn iBerzerker, iWarlock and iDefender in this order. When you dodge with DE it will overwrite iBerzerker with a clone.

The problems with phantasm are:

1) It is currently the de facto standard PvE Mesmer dps build. In principle this shouldn’t change because phantasm is about doubling down. Its your personal dps and your phantasm’s dps and reflect damage all rolled together.
2) Maintaining 3 phantasms is difficult. They die easily to cleave/aoe and the 3rd phantasm can be overwritten with any clone producing ability.
3) PvE meta build can’t reliably maintain 3 phantasms even without DE but 2 phantasm dps is less than Guardian dps. Increasing phantasm damage is not an easy solution because it is an indirect buff to all other Mesmer builds that use phantasms incidentally.
4) Mesmer is currently a PvE Guardian substitute, providing less team support and less dps.
5) The problem with innate DE and PvE phantasm is that in the long run, it imposes a 2 phantasm hard cap meaning that phantasm dps will be inferior to guardian in perpetuity. Its about the potential of phantasm builds and ways to kill that potential post specialization.
6) PvP phantasm is virtually extinct but the ability to overwrite an out of position phantasm with an in position clone is essential. The clone can be shattered, used to body block etc. An out of position phantasm is useless. 3 phantasm in pvp is even more difficult to maintain (not that anyone even tries this anymore). Raising these issues is about seeing where the build can go and how it could be changed without breaking something else. I just feel like innate DE makes the concept of maximising dps with phantasms unworkable in the long run or at the very least doomed to be inferior Guardians.

Super happy with innate IP.

Default IP, eh? Dear Gods … I’m imagining that on a Maim build … begins hopping around the place

Sebrent.3625:

The use of IP for the other shatters is pretty obvious, but has anyone ever actually done the math for how much extra damage we get from IP? The damage per clone is less and less for Mind Wrack as you go from 1 to 2 to 3 clones. IP just makes you the +1 clone up to 4. Going with that trend, it’s an even worse damage per clone than a 3 clone shatter … obviously doing more, but going from 1 to 2 or 2 to 3 would be a larger increase.

The math on IP has been done before. I’ve made posts in the pasts arguing that it was too effective and that its effects should be built into the Mesmer.

The effect of IP for F2-F4 is obvious. It’s F1 where it really shines, though I’d argue it was worth it for its other effects alone.

IP mimics the effect your illusions trigger. If you shatter a single illusion that deals 500 then you’ll deal 500 as well. If you shatter two illusions that deal 350 each then you’ll do 350 as well.

The actual numbers are closer to 49% of max damage potential (3 illusions) for a single illusion, so much of the damage of Mind Wrack is front loaded into a single illusion shatter with diminishing returns for shattering more than 1. This means that with IP and a single illusion you deal nearly as much damage as a 3 illusion Mind Wrack would without the trait.

Don’t assume :P

Definitely this subforum never steps into PvE. DE should never be baseline because it’s awful for PvE – both destroys phantasms and leaves stray illusion which mess up with aggro management. It is really annoying to play in a party with a DE mesmer (oh, my guild does have bad mesmers…).

If anything, Illusionary Invigoration could be baseline.