Guild Wars 2

Referring to this topic (and lots of other posts):

DPS Analysis: Permanent Phantasms

Strill.2591:

Death and Taxes guild, using highly detailed DPS models, found that if a Mesmer hypothetically had three permanent, invincible phantasms:

• Their dps would be about the same as other classes
• Their damage without shatters or phantasms is about half that of other classes.

http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/13274266-mesmerino-dpserino-no-copypastarino

Well, we all know this for so long.

But there are still no changes to the Mesmer, the Phantasms and the Gameplay.

In big WvW-Fights, for example, Phantasms die mostly right after summoning them.
And there are so many other situations, where Phantasms seems to be totally useless.
Moreover, even under best circumstances it takes quite long to summon all 3 Phantasms.
This of course means a great loss in damage.

But how to fix this core issue?

With this thread I want to collect all your suggestion about the Mesmer to hopefully find some solutions.

So, let’s start the discussion!

I’d buff Mesmer sword auto by 25% against targets with no boons and the final hit that already does more damage against boonless targets being 25% harder. I doubt this will be a problem in PvP.

Compounding power buffed to 5%.

Mantra trait being a 10% damage buff when you use a mantra, doesn’t stack and lasts 10s (think like arcane lightening but different)

That’s what I would do in the current PvE environment. We have no idea what HoT will be like though and all bosses might have fast refreshing boons (every 2s) which makes sword bad.

Fragility now pls.

Maybe a trait that makes phantasms deal no damage but you receive a 25% damage buff for 15s for each shattered phantasm. Again, no stacking. Just as a way to spice up the class to move away from phantasm damage. Though I figure this would be OTT in PvP and get wine.

+ For Sword auto and CP buff
+ For Mantra change

That would make keeping phantasms up worth the trouble.

One way to fix this, in my opinion would be to give Phantasms much more health.
But for PvP-reasons this might not happen.

Another possibility would be, to heal our Illusions, each time we deal damage, or each time we use a skill.
This could help at least a little bit.
For example:

• Signet of Restoration:
  Passive:
  Grants health to (you and) your Illusions every time you or your Illusions use a spell.
  Or:
  Grants health to (you and) your Illusions every time you or your Illusions deal damage.
  Active:
  Cooldown: 25 seconds
  Heal yourself and your Illusions.

An additional F-Skill, not to shatter Illusions, but to summon all 3 Phantasms would help a lot.
Let’s combine this with an additional passive.
For example:

• [F5] The System:
  Passive:
  For each Illusion that is not summoned, your damage is increased by X% each.
  Active:
  Cooldown: 90 seconds
  Summon 3 Phantasms, based on your selected weapon.
  When you hit an enemy the cooldown of The System is reduced by 1 second.
  When you critical hit an enemy the cooldown of The System is reduced by 3 seconds.

But how about to change the whole way of playing of the Mesmer?
I mean: Do we really need 3 Phantasms?

Right now the damage of the Mesmer and the damage of the 3 Phantasms seems to be just about 50:50.

Let’s think different!

Increase the damage of the Mesmer from 50% to about 80% (or 85%) of the overall damage.

We still can summon 3 Clones to confuse our enemies or to shatter them.

But we can only summon one Phantasm at the same time (in addition to our 3 Clones).
Maybe add a special skill-button to summon them.
For example:

• [F5] The Summoning:
  Summon a Phantasm, based on your selected weapon.

The new Phantasms deal about 20% (or 15%) of the overall damage.
To compensate this, they will get much more health and defensive values.
The Phantasms will act more like the Pets of the Hunter.
They won’t die, after an enemies death.
Phantasms can not be shattered.
But shatter-skills could add a special bonus to the Phantasms or trigger a special skill of the Phantasms.

Also our present skills to summon a Phantasm, could add a special bonus to the Phantasms or trigger a special skill of the Phantasms. Or just replace them completely.

apharma.3741:

I’d buff Mesmer sword auto by 25% against targets with no boons and the final hit that already does more damage against boonless targets being 25% harder. I doubt this will be a problem in PvP.

Compounding power buffed to 5%.

Mantra trait being a 10% damage buff when you use a mantra, doesn’t stack and lasts 10s (think like arcane lightening but different)

That’s what I would do in the current PvE environment. We have no idea what HoT will be like though and all bosses might have fast refreshing boons (every 2s) which makes sword bad.

Fragility now pls.

Maybe a trait that makes phantasms deal no damage but you receive a 25% damage buff for 15s for each shattered phantasm. Again, no stacking. Just as a way to spice up the class to move away from phantasm damage. Though I figure this would be OTT in PvP and get wine.

Good suggestions, except for the phantasm dmg buff, that seems op op

Quadox.7834:

apharma.3741:

I’d buff Mesmer sword auto by 25% against targets with no boons and the final hit that already does more damage against boonless targets being 25% harder. I doubt this will be a problem in PvP.

Compounding power buffed to 5%.

Mantra trait being a 10% damage buff when you use a mantra, doesn’t stack and lasts 10s (think like arcane lightening but different)

That’s what I would do in the current PvE environment. We have no idea what HoT will be like though and all bosses might have fast refreshing boons (every 2s) which makes sword bad.

Fragility now pls.

Maybe a trait that makes phantasms deal no damage but you receive a 25% damage buff for 15s for each shattered phantasm. Again, no stacking. Just as a way to spice up the class to move away from phantasm damage. Though I figure this would be OTT in PvP and get wine.

Good suggestions, except for the phantasm dmg buff, that seems op op

Weird thing about that. I posted in other topics so spreadsheets from Frifox and DeKeyz and Mesmer with 3 phantasms is about that of say a guard. Now, the build that was measured on I don’t know, did they have 3 or 4 mantras but you can kinda tell the traits.

Bottom of it is damage is split about 40-50% mesmer and the rest phantasms. From the tables you can estimate Mesmer dps to be anywhere between 2.7k and nearly 4k. If you gained a 75% damage buff that would, even at the top end put you still behind a no unscathed contender guard and remember I said no damage from phantasms.

With all the other buffs maybe it would reach warrior levels but then maintaining a 3 phantasm shatter damage buff in and of itself wouldn’t be easy unless you were a chronomancer.

It was really a possible solution to Anet wanting us to shatter in PvE.

Personally I’d just like to be able to do decent DPS without having to have all the utilities taken up by things to keep DPS up like readied mantras, constantly casting instead of damage and all sorts of other things. That way mesmerising can offer the utility with the damage in a similar way to guards.

Azathoth.2098:

One way to fix this, in my opinion would be to give Phantasms much more health.
But for PvP-reasons this might not happen.

Another possibility would be, to heal our Illusions, each time we deal damage, or each time we use a skill.
This could help at least a little bit.
For example:

• Signet of Restoration:
  Passive:
  Grants health to (you and) your Illusions every time you or your Illusions use a spell.
  Or:
  Grants health to (you and) your Illusions every time you or your Illusions deal damage.
  Active:
  Cooldown: 25 seconds
  Heal yourself and your Illusions.

I really like this idea.

Maybe change it to just illusions. If it also heals us, we could became unbalanced with other class.

apharma.3741:

I’d buff Mesmer sword auto by 25% against targets with no boons and the final hit that already does more damage against boonless targets being 25% harder. I doubt this will be a problem in PvP.

Compounding power buffed to 5%.

Mantra trait being a 10% damage buff when you use a mantra, doesn’t stack and lasts 10s (think like arcane lightening but different)

That’s what I would do in the current PvE environment. We have no idea what HoT will be like though and all bosses might have fast refreshing boons (every 2s) which makes sword bad.

Fragility now pls.

Maybe a trait that makes phantasms deal no damage but you receive a 25% damage buff for 15s for each shattered phantasm. Again, no stacking. Just as a way to spice up the class to move away from phantasm damage. Though I figure this would be OTT in PvP and get wine.

This^

They really need to provide a build option to shift the damage onto the mesmer and not split between phantasms so much. 1h sword really needs the damage buff. I like the option of no damage for phantasms/illusions at all. Maybe limit it to one phantasm out at a time + clones and have the phantasm just provide its utility…without the damage contribution. Have shatters provide no damage with this option…just the utility of the shatter itself…especially with IP baseline.

Azathoth.2098:

Another possibility would be, to heal our Illusions, each time we deal damage, or each time we use a skill.

Signet of the Ether applying its passive heal to Phantasms as well as the Mesmer would make a ton of sense, actually. I mean, it might not be enough to solve the problems with Phantasms, but it’d be something.

Doesn’t solve the problem but it’s something … I’m not happy with that.

If there is a problem, you should fix the problem.

Would you be happy if Phantasm stopped attacking due to some bug and instead of fixing it we got an extra regen from Phantasms? I doubt it :-p … but it’s something ;-)

Add a trait or built into every phantasms spell (not including clones); Phantasms have 10 (or however long) secs of distortion when summoned. This should allow our phantasms 2 rotations with haste trait before being instant destroyed. I like this idea because in pvp and pve it gives us time to do our proper dmg before our dmg can be destroyed.

Like other classes we have to cast our spells, but unlike other classes our dmg can be instant gibbed because how phantasms and clones work. You know how many times my shatter or phantasm combo was ruined by a simple aoe cleave?

A couple thoughts on some of the ideas here:

Having the heal signet apply to phantasms wouldn’t do much of anything. Phantasms don’t generally get gradually killed, they just straight up get one-shot by even normal elite mobs in dungeons. The healing would be helpful if phantasms had enough hp to survive a couple hits.

Phantasm hp is already drastically split between PvE and all PvP modes. I believe the PvE health is around 3.5x higher (ish). This means that they could quite reasonably increase phantasm hp drastically for PvE without unbalancing PvP modes.

I feel that phantasms should be changed so that they can actually do their job in PvE. I also feel that some sort of shatter-based boost to outgoing damage would be cool. The problem with that would be balancing it for PvP properly, since it could potentially combine in an explosive fashion with normal bursting shatter builds.

If possible, code it so unless phantasm is directly targeted by the enemy it is not affected by attacks. This will make phatasms invulnerable against all AEs and cleaves. Furthermore if possible only apply this change to PvE (as I have no idea how this will affect PvP).

Another suggestion would be to have phantasms have a limited lifetime and turning them completely invulnerable to damage, effectively making them into DOT abilities that still benefit from direct damage stats.

If you need to analyze DPS, these two mes dps calculators will do exactly that:

- Light calc
- Heavy calc

The light version calculates terminal dps and avg reflects only, which is good for fast calcs and your typical testings. This is what I use if I need a quick answer such as how much gear/food X is better than gear Y or how much better build X vs build Y.

The heavy version is like light version but also accounts for and calculates phantasm summon rotation and resulting bleed ticks over time, which is good for simulating actual in-game gameplay. This version will calculate how many seconds it’ll take to reach X amount of dmg depending on what rotation/phantasm combination you use. The heavy version will also give you graphs for various startup rotations (duelist/swordsman/heal/swordsman, warden/heal/warden/swordsman, etc) of dealt dmg over time and expected avg dps over time. Due to how complicated the spreadsheet is, one change per input variable (gear stat, trait, etc) may take up to few minutes to update the results. Use this only if you have plenty of patience.

To use these spreadsheets, import/copy them into your own google drive because mine are set to Read Only for public. Both spreadsheets are up to date and are extremely accurate because the data was gathered directly from gw2’s memory, no stopwatches or video capturing mess. Heck, my account got banned because the tools I used to gather data for these spreadsheet are considered illegal since they “modify game files” according to anet but thats a whole different topic of its own, so yeah…

This would be a major change and will sound crazy because I’m just thinking out loud, but what if they changed phantasms so that they do the same damage as clones, i.e. zilch, and instead made them all just provide boons, conditions, or effects? Removing the damage would require no additional changes to some phantasms like phantasmal zerker. It would still cause cripple like it does now, just without the damage. Others like iWarlock or swordsman would need changes, e.g. iWarlock would increase damage done to enemies within its range or maybe cause vulnerability. Swordsman might grant might to nearby allies with every attack or cause bleeding. Maybe the warden could cause slow or grant protection with its attacks. Duelist might blind with attacks.

What is the point? Removing damage from phantasms would allow buffing the mesmer’s personal damage to reasonable levels. The death of phantasms would not drastically affect the mesmer’s damage like it does now. Ramp up times for damage would go away. Depending on what the individual phantasms do, it could also make phantasm gameplay less passive and more interesting both in PvE and WvW/PvP. In PvE the mesmer could do damage comparable to other classes without being so dependent on phantasm damage, but the conditions, boons, or effects created by phantasms could be supportive which would fit the mesmer’s current PvE role. In WvW/PvP, the effects could give gameplay options for support or holding points as well as offense. In WvW zergs where phantasms get destroyed quickly at least the mesmer could still do reasonable damage.

Again, just thinking out loud…this could be a terrible idea that I just haven’t thought through. It would be a huge change so it would be unlikely to be implemented even if not terrible.

Meh, I think that would net us with some very lackluster feeling weapon skills.

I’m almost to the point where I think they should just say “these classes are great in large fights” and “these classes are great in smaller fights” … give us one or the other.

Right now it’s “these classes are always great” and “these classes are only great in smaller fights”.

I really think Anet just needs to separate our phantasms from our shatter mechanic. I see that as the biggest obstacle in our DPS… maybe bump up our illusion limit to 5 circles.
Something like-
red red purple blue blue
Where the red circles can be clones, blue phantasms and purple either. Then when we shatter we only use the illusions that hold the red and purple positions.

William Bradley Knight.2609:

This would be a major change and will sound crazy because I’m just thinking out loud, but what if they changed phantasms so that they do the same damage as clones, i.e. zilch, and instead made them all just provide boons, conditions, or effects? Removing the damage would require no additional changes to some phantasms like phantasmal zerker. It would still cause cripple like it does now, just without the damage. Others like iWarlock or swordsman would need changes, e.g. iWarlock would increase damage done to enemies within its range or maybe cause vulnerability. Swordsman might grant might to nearby allies with every attack or cause bleeding. Maybe the warden could cause slow or grant protection with its attacks. Duelist might blind with attacks.

What is the point? Removing damage from phantasms would allow buffing the mesmer’s personal damage to reasonable levels. The death of phantasms would not drastically affect the mesmer’s damage like it does now. Ramp up times for damage would go away. Depending on what the individual phantasms do, it could also make phantasm gameplay less passive and more interesting both in PvE and WvW/PvP. In PvE the mesmer could do damage comparable to other classes without being so dependent on phantasm damage, but the conditions, boons, or effects created by phantasms could be supportive which would fit the mesmer’s current PvE role. In WvW/PvP, the effects could give gameplay options for support or holding points as well as offense. In WvW zergs where phantasms get destroyed quickly at least the mesmer could still do reasonable damage.

Again, just thinking out loud…this could be a terrible idea that I just haven’t thought through. It would be a huge change so it would be unlikely to be implemented even if not terrible.

I like this idea. It has already been suggested a few times on these forums in one way our another. Currently, they are putting too much responsibility onto the phantasm mechanic. They want them to be shatter fuel, support, and dps. Something’s got to give…those things often conflict. How can they be support if you shatter them? How can they be dps if you have to skip the dps phantasm traits to get support ones? How can they be anything if they get instagibbed in aoe/cleave? I think they just need to make phantasms do zero damage but also be immune to damage. They should only apply their support effects (boons, reflects, conditions). I think the new trait to make phantasms not die upon first shatter should be baseline…its a trait that has a huge impact on all mesmers. Its the same reason they made IP and IE baseline.

Making these changes would do exactly like you said…allow them to let the actual mesmer do decent dps and not be held back by all the negatives associated with phantasms. No more ramp up time for dps (cranking out phantasms on each target). No more kitten dps because all your phantams keep getting one shot. More active play, as you have to do the damage yourself instead of watching your phantasms do it. They could actually buff 1h sword to decent damage levels if they did all of this.

How about a mechanic that mesmer individual has a quite high dps but the dmg done by the mesmer decrease for each phantasm up.
Like this:
0 phantasms: Mesmer 100% dps | phantasm 0% dps
1 phantasm: Mesmer 90% dps | phantasm 15% dps
2 phantasms: Mesmer 80% dps | phantasms 30% dps
3 phantasms: mesmer 70% dps | phantasms 45% dps
Could this help? Is it bad because of phantasms like the defender/mage that deal (almost) no dmg?

Me Games Ma.8426:

How about a mechanic that mesmer individual has a quite high dps but the dmg done by the mesmer decrease for each phantasm up.
Like this:
0 phantasms: Mesmer 100% dps | phantasm 0% dps
1 phantasm: Mesmer 90% dps | phantasm 15% dps
2 phantasms: Mesmer 80% dps | phantasms 30% dps
3 phantasms: mesmer 70% dps | phantasms 45% dps
Could this help? Is it bad because of phantasms like the defender/mage that deal (almost) no dmg?

I had something similar in my redesign suggestion – Phantasmal Compensation: Increases your damage by X%, and by another X% for every Clone or Inactive Illusion. (basic idea behind this is: you get a sizable direct-damage bonus when/if you are not using your Phantasms, the numbers should be adjusted so it feels like a decent tradeoff in PVE or WvW zergs, but not overpowered)

I think X=7 is a “safe” (as in “not game-breaking”) value, and X=10 should be fair in most PvP situations and very good for PvE.

Me Games Ma.8426:

How about a mechanic that mesmer individual has a quite high dps but the dmg done by the mesmer decrease for each phantasm up.
Like this:
0 phantasms: Mesmer 100% dps | phantasm 0% dps
1 phantasm: Mesmer 90% dps | phantasm 15% dps
2 phantasms: Mesmer 80% dps | phantasms 30% dps
3 phantasms: mesmer 70% dps | phantasms 45% dps
Could this help? Is it bad because of phantasms like the defender/mage that deal (almost) no dmg?

That’s exactly what I thought, as I have proposed the following:

Azathoth.2098:

An additional F-Skill, not to shatter Illusions, but to summon all 3 Phantasms would help a lot.
Let’s combine this with an additional passive.
For example:

• [F5] The System:
  Passive:
  For each Illusion that is not summoned, your damage is increased by X% each.
  Active:
  Cooldown: 90 seconds
  Summon 3 Phantasms, based on your selected weapon.
  When you hit an enemy the cooldown of The System is reduced by 1 second.
  When you critical hit an enemy the cooldown of The System is reduced by 3 seconds.