Guild Wars 2

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skcamow.3527:

Fay.2357:

Guess what else isn’t being used at the top tournaments? Oh, it’s mesmer as a whole..

Not true.

At the ESL weekly cup last Thursday there was at least one team using standard power shatter. I know helseth would have but he couldn’t play for some reason.

At the EU Go4 cup Sunday there were three, two of which were on the same team.

At the NA Go4 cup there were two.

It’s a little hard to tell, since ESL doesn’t think it’s worth their time to record the classes that people play, but from what I can deduce off of screenshots…not a single team with a mesmer on it even made it into the finals in any of those cups. Often the first round match was even a ridiculous blowout, and they got trounced once they faced a competent team. The fact that mesmers were used doesn’t make their use a good idea. I should have been more clear.

Fay.2357:

skcamow.3527:

Fay.2357:

Guess what else isn’t being used at the top tournaments? Oh, it’s mesmer as a whole..

Not true.

At the ESL weekly cup last Thursday there was at least one team using standard power shatter. I know helseth would have but he couldn’t play for some reason.

At the EU Go4 cup Sunday there were three, two of which were on the same team.

At the NA Go4 cup there were two.

It’s a little hard to tell, since ESL doesn’t think it’s worth their time to record the classes that people play, but from what I can deduce off of screenshots…not a single team with a mesmer on it even made it into the finals in any of those cups. Often the first round match was even a ridiculous blowout, and they got trounced once they faced a competent team. The fact that mesmers were used doesn’t make their use a good idea. I should have been more clear.

No need for screenshots when you have the actual VoD’s. One team made it to the finals on NA and that team gave the Abjured a really good fight with a mesmer I’ve never heard of.

Obviously we’re digressing in this thread but I find it a bit humorous how people consistently say mesmer isn’t viable in the top tier when they’re clearly in the top GW2 tournaments week after week.

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/646261969

The mesmer’s name is Braiin.

Calypso.2578:

http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/646261969

The mesmer’s name is Braiin.

nice fights but what the mesmer did exactly in those fights?
almost no dmg , die a lot by being focused , almost no shatter got used or hit

its just a proof that mesmers are preety weak in those tpvp high tier fights as thief can do it better or even lb ranger in some maps

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

yet it’s not being used at tournaments

Guess what else isn’t being used at the top tournaments? Oh, it’s mesmer as a whole.

IMO the 3 best teams on EU are TCG, oRNG and 55hp monks. 2 of these have a shatter mesmer on their main roster.

NA’s #2 team, the Dankening also has a shatter mesmer.

Wile.5024:

messiah.1908:

and Wile.5024
i watched the vid and how can you tell the thieves or rangers etc were good if they got burst down in 5 sec. maybe they just were noobish like all wvw players… sarcasm ….
but the burst omg 3k-4k dps !!!

Hahahhaha take a look at the first 1v1 theif fight for example:

- Fight took over a minute NOT 5 SECONDS
- Several bursts were needed
- Both anticipate others movements and counter
- All skills and utilities are used
- Mesmer is at an disadvantage due to thief s/d
- Bursts did around 75% of thieves hp everytime, 80%+ the final blow THIS DOES NOT EQUAL 3000-4000hp You think straight up lying about the power damage is a good idea?

Your thief fight on the other hand: 10seconds, 1 diversion shatter (lol) from t4 stealth…. thief did not dodge or cleanse or do anything, he just spammed aa with confusion and run a circle before dying…

Both the mesmer and the s/d+p/p thief on the wvw sunburst vid show much more skill than you in any of your vids. Any player with at least some experience can see that right away.

A lot of empathy right now for people I have raged at. Reading your post made me feel sick. In fact all your posts in this thread are hostile. But you aren’t the only one with unnecessary hostile posts. I think this thread should just stop. The point was made. Let the thread die. Preferably come back later with more data.

I’ve been having a lot of fun with my mtd mesmer, have one question/issue.

I feel like if my shatters are on cooldown I don’t really have a lot to do to hurt someone. Staff autos seem like my best option but they feel pretty lackluster.

Is that just part of the build I need to work around, am I misplaying?

cbezzant.7154:

I’ve been having a lot of fun with my mtd mesmer, have one question/issue.

I feel like if my shatters are on cooldown I don’t really have a lot to do to hurt someone. Staff autos seem like my best option but they feel pretty lackluster.

Is that just part of the build I need to work around, am I misplaying?

I’ll be nice, productive and answer this question for you!

First off, all your shatters shouldn’t all be on CD for a long time. Learn to start with F3 then F1 while on staff. Save your F2 for Scepter so that you get a nice confusion burst. The idea is to keep constant pressure throughout an entire fight. Unless you know your enemy has no condi clear, it’s not smart to unload all your shatters.

Staff Clone AAs will rack up a lot of dps, but it does need time build up. You can’t expect to be doing a lot of dmg over a quick period of time like power shatter. The key here is to make sure you have at least 2 clones up while keeping distance. Don’t summon pWarlock except when you know you’re going to shatter as he’ll take up a clone spot that could be used for more Staff AA. Also time it so that you get Chaos Armor from 4 as well as a combo with Chaos Storm, giving you 10-15s (depending on trait spread) of protection until you can gain another shatter.

If you need anymore advice, don’t hesitate to ask or even send me a whisper in-game.

MailMail.6534:

I’ll be nice, productive and answer this question for you!

First off, all your shatters shouldn’t all be on CD for a long time. Learn to start with F3 then F1 while on staff. Save your F2 for Scepter so that you get a nice confusion burst. The idea is to keep constant pressure throughout an entire fight. Unless you know your enemy has no condi clear, it’s not smart to unload all your shatters.

Staff Clone AAs will rack up a lot of dps, but it does need time build up. You can’t expect to be doing a lot of dmg over a quick period of time like power shatter. The key here is to make sure you have at least 2 clones up while keeping distance. Don’t summon pWarlock except when you know you’re going to shatter as he’ll take up a clone spot that could be used for more Staff AA. Also time it so that you get Chaos Armor from 4 as well as a combo with Chaos Storm, giving you 10-15s (depending on trait spread) of protection until you can gain another shatter.

If you need anymore advice, don’t hesitate to ask or even send me a whisper in-game.

Thanks! I was actually just thinking of shatter 2 and 3, but you made me realize that 1 and 4 will apply condi too. Brainfart

It’s not immediately obvious to me why scepter would be better confusion burst than staff – do you just mean I’m more likely to have more clones out due to the auto attack?

How do I choose when to auto attack staff + clones vs trying to shatter? I tend to play a lot of far point roaming in spvp so if I take too long to kill they may get backup.

cbezzant.7154:

MailMail.6534:

I’ll be nice, productive and answer this question for you!

First off, all your shatters shouldn’t all be on CD for a long time. Learn to start with F3 then F1 while on staff. Save your F2 for Scepter so that you get a nice confusion burst. The idea is to keep constant pressure throughout an entire fight. Unless you know your enemy has no condi clear, it’s not smart to unload all your shatters.

Staff Clone AAs will rack up a lot of dps, but it does need time build up. You can’t expect to be doing a lot of dmg over a quick period of time like power shatter. The key here is to make sure you have at least 2 clones up while keeping distance. Don’t summon pWarlock except when you know you’re going to shatter as he’ll take up a clone spot that could be used for more Staff AA. Also time it so that you get Chaos Armor from 4 as well as a combo with Chaos Storm, giving you 10-15s (depending on trait spread) of protection until you can gain another shatter.

If you need anymore advice, don’t hesitate to ask or even send me a whisper in-game.

Thanks! I was actually just thinking of shatter 2 and 3, but you made me realize that 1 and 4 will apply condi too. Brainfart

It’s not immediately obvious to me why scepter would be better confusion burst than staff – do you just mean I’m more likely to have more clones out due to the auto attack?

How do I choose when to auto attack staff + clones vs trying to shatter? I tend to play a lot of far point roaming in spvp so if I take too long to kill they may get backup.

being mtd shatter there is no right or wrong, you dont have same burst combi like power shatter

usually if i time my rotation right i can get 4 shatter with F1 rdy up after used.
f3 save for daze if needed usually below 50% hp or when you want to stop res or stomp
f2 you main burst so save it
f1 spam it
f4 save it when needed

staff clones do great dmg if you spread them out far from each other and the bounce is great for buffing and dmg would be 1k dps with burning proc and 2-3 bleed stacks .

scepter usually used for lure the dodge or cleanse with #3 and to buff you dmg with #2 and #5 confusion

if you used all you shatters and the enemy just used cleanse then you have to stay back with staff and spread out clones or go with scepter and try to block to proc the torment

so depends the situation i choose if to soften with staff clones or just go shatter combo the enemy

example when i fight on far
engi usually – i try to spread out clones until he is 80% about 2-3 sec then shatter and swap to scepter and try to block on his mines or his attacks then dodge and another shatter with f3 or f2 then use #5 for confusion and #3 for more confusion and shatter again and swap to staff again dodge and #2 +#3 for 3 clones up again and shatter with f1
thus even if he cleansed some he will get up again 5-10 torment and 5-10 confusion

d/d ele – longer fight but doable but get rdy for enemy support. abuse scepter #2 block with all they AA and aoe skills

guardian – dmg or bunker easy again try to lend your #2 block and shatter at will in-between their cleanse skills , AT is good here to steal boons and get 15-20 might stacks

warrior – much harder with immunity so more staff clones time without shattering and after 10 sec shatter twice and w8 for cleanse or another immunity so more staff clones time and then shatter with f3 or f2 and f1

ranger – shatter f1 to bait the cleanse, then staff clones or scepter clones for more soften then shatter at will

necro – more staff clones as his dmg is huge to make him hard time to target you so abuse stealth with torch while you shatter and stay at range and time your block when he is on DS

mesmer – hard fight as they tend not to stay close to you

thieves – same d/p immune so you must land block or f3 or you dead . save chaos storm for their SR

cbezzant.7154:

Thanks! I was actually just thinking of shatter 2 and 3, but you made me realize that 1 and 4 will apply condi too. Brainfart

It’s not immediately obvious to me why scepter would be better confusion burst than staff – do you just mean I’m more likely to have more clones out due to the auto attack?

How do I choose when to auto attack staff + clones vs trying to shatter? I tend to play a lot of far point roaming in spvp so if I take too long to kill they may get backup.

Distortion clones don’t run toward their enemies. Instead, there’s a delay, and they just explode where they are, so the conditions will only hit if your enemy is near. While all of your shatters are potent, depending on trait spread, your F3 will apply tons of vulnerability, which will soften them up for your high dps ally.

I only say F2 is stronger for confusion burst while on scepter because of 3 things:

• Additional stack of confusion per shatter due to Illusionary Retribution
• pMage’s attack magically hitting an enemy.
• Few stacks gained from Confusing Images
• I usually can get 8-10 confusion stacks at least, which is ticking 1k+ per skill use for 5.5-8 seconds.

I don’t suggest playing far point with MtD as it’s a bit slower to down good enemies. While MtD is a GREAT dueler imo, time is of the essence. You should focus on the mid fights and helping your home point guard when necessary. Leave the far point assault to someone quicker in both mobility and dps (this is unless of course you’re running portal). Please remember for the sake of your fellow teammates that it only takes 2 captured points to win conquest.

To answer your last question, I tend to use Staff AA strategy when I know I’m going to be waiting a short period for my shatter CDs. Like I said previously, I usually open up with Staff. Shatter twice. Switch to Scepter. I can get 2 shatters in here, stalling a bit with Prestige and creating distance with Blink. Then I switch to Staff for “clean up”.

cbezzant.7154:

I’ve been having a lot of fun with my mtd mesmer, have one question/issue.

I feel like if my shatters are on cooldown I don’t really have a lot to do to hurt someone. Staff autos seem like my best option but they feel pretty lackluster.

Is that just part of the build I need to work around, am I misplaying?

That’s kinda how shatter work. There’s a downtime where you “build” into the burst. With MtD I use MW mostly as a filler, and CoF for the mega condi pressure.

@Fay. When clones started to getting benefit from toughness of the character? I remember it was vitality instead toughness.

MtD shatter works. What makes people doesn’t want to play it, lack of mobility that Power-Shatter offers and quite squishy compared to other condition builds in the game.

@cbezzant.7154

MailMail.6534:

First off, all your shatters shouldn’t all be on CD for a long time. Learn to start with F3 then F1 while on staff. Save your F2 for Scepter so that you get a nice confusion burst. The idea is to keep constant pressure throughout an entire fight. Unless you know your enemy has no condi clear, it’s not smart to unload all your shatters.

You should almost never start with diversion, unless you want to interrupt some high dmg channeled ability like ranger lb being already thrown at you. Instead save it for interrupting key abilities when needed.

Starting with F2 seems the best option to me, high dmg first and the confusion stacks will keep the enemy from dealing dmg to you. Keep the pressure up with F1 after that.
When the F2 has recharged, that’s probably where you’ll be able to end the fight with a burst of conditions.

messiah.1908:

staff clones do great dmg if you spread them out far from each other and the bounce is great for buffing and dmg would be 1k dps with burning proc and 2-3 bleed stacks .

scepter usually used for lure the dodge or cleanse with #3 and to buff you dmg with #2 and #5 confusion

if you used all you shatters and the enemy just used cleanse then you have to stay back with staff and spread out clones or go with scepter and try to block to proc the torment

These all are good ways to keep the pressure up, though there’s one thing about the bounces to note: It will work better the closer you are to the target so backing up to max range isn’t always the best option.

MailMail.6534:

Distortion clones don’t run toward their enemies. Instead, there’s a delay, and they just explode where they are, so the conditions will only hit if your enemy is near. While all of your shatters are potent, depending on trait spread, your F3 will apply tons of vulnerability, which will soften them up for your high dps ally.

I only say F2 is stronger for confusion burst while on scepter because of 3 things:

• Additional stack of confusion per shatter due to Illusionary Retribution
• pMage’s attack magically hitting an enemy.
• Few stacks gained from Confusing Images
• I usually can get 8-10 confusion stacks at least, which is ticking 1k+ per skill use for 5.5-8 seconds.

I don’t suggest playing far point with MtD as it’s a bit slower to down good enemies. While MtD is a GREAT dueler imo, time is of the essence. You should focus on the mid fights and helping your home point guard when necessary. Leave the far point assault to someone quicker in both mobility and dps (this is unless of course you’re running portal). Please remember for the sake of your fellow teammates that it only takes 2 captured points to win conquest.

To answer your last question, I tend to use Staff AA strategy when I know I’m going to be waiting a short period for my shatter CDs. Like I said previously, I usually open up with Staff. Shatter twice. Switch to Scepter. I can get 2 shatters in here, stalling a bit with Prestige and creating distance with Blink. Then I switch to Staff for “clean up”.

I definitely do feel the lack of fast killing potential but I seem to do better in small scale fights than the big ones around middle. At least in whatever crappy rating I’m at I find that rushing far usually gets me a cap and often draws 2-3 enemies, my winrate has been around 2/3rds. I only really struggle with necros, especially terrormancer. I like it because I get a lot of 1v1s to learn from but I’ll definitely switch when opponents get better and it stops working.

Currently not running any Domination because I like mender’s purity (arcane thievery over MoR) but I will try 4/4/0/0/6 again and see how it goes.

Wile.5024:

@cbezzant.7154

MailMail.6534:

First off, all your shatters shouldn’t all be on CD for a long time. Learn to start with F3 then F1 while on staff. Save your F2 for Scepter so that you get a nice confusion burst. The idea is to keep constant pressure throughout an entire fight. Unless you know your enemy has no condi clear, it’s not smart to unload all your shatters.

You should almost never start with diversion, unless you want to interrupt some high dmg channeled ability like ranger lb being already thrown at you. Instead save it for interrupting key abilities when needed.

Starting with F2 seems the best option to me, high dmg first and the confusion stacks will keep the enemy from dealing dmg to you. Keep the pressure up with F1 after that.
When the F2 has recharged, that’s probably where you’ll be able to end the fight with a burst of conditions.

It’s definitely safer to keep your interrupt on F3. 34s is a long time for F3, but I play more aggressively at the opening of a fight with the intention of interrupting the enemy’s opening skill rotation. I expect my enemy to immediately waste a condi clear after my opening. If they don’t, they get eaten alive by ally dpser.

Which leads me to your next opinion on F2. Because this is one of our “burst” skills (I lol every time I use this term), I try to save this until after the enemy has burned his condi clear. I think you have plenty of options on how to shatter on this build. A lot of it also depends on many variables that you mention such as the lb ranger.

Sorry this thread is derailing towards a general MtD thread, but it’s better than the negative sword fighting that was happening earlier…

Currently not running any Domination because I like mender’s purity (arcane thievery over MoR) but I will try 4/4/0/0/6 again and see how it goes.

My build can be found here: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtlqxQNcrNCrBh6rslfSyEEgSWhrB-TJRHwAC3fIZZABnCAAPBAA
In terms of offensive Mesmer builds, I think it’s always important to have some form of boon strip, especially in a meta that has a reliance on boons like protection and regen. Conditions aren’t usually an issue except for ele burns and/or some engis or necros. I use Null Field & pDisenchanter somewhat offensively while they obviously offer condi clear as well. They are usually in use, but the slots are interchangeable with other utilities. Other skills I use in place of it:

• Feedback instead of Null Field for multiple rangers. Also does well against engis, warriors and thieves.
• Portal instead of pDisenchanter when I’m with an organized group and using ts.

If you’re going into Inspiration just for the Mender’s, you can go for Glamour Mastery using portal+null as well. Lots of flexibility with MtD, but since condi is already a lower risk playstyle, I like to be as offensive as possible which is why I go into domination. Just my personal preference. I love Shattered Concentration too much.

Forgot to mention that I like Arcane Thievery, but I’ve recently gotten sick of it bugging out and not working when I need it to 100% of the time. It’s great when it works though. I really recommend trying out pDisenchanter. He has a high rate of attack and completely rekts in small scale fights.

i had fun moments this morning when me and friend both mtd fighting ranked
2 teams just whispered us how the hell we were so strong and too strong and what are builds were.
as i am polite i answered them . my friend told me not too "are you crazy you want them to use it against us "
the third fight we fought new mesmer with mtd …. LOL
engi at far rage at me that i moa him and kill him under 10 sec with all his turrets spread on point. wth they use turrets so i use moa…. the second encounter i didnt use moa and he died either way so he gg me out of respect.

i find it that attacking close or far than support mid is the best way to handle with this build unless its 1v2 on far or close then disengage if no help comes.
and the staff bounce also hit your allies so even if you from range it buff them a bit with might or fury

eozturk.7205:

@Fay. When clones started to getting benefit from toughness of the character? I remember it was vitality instead toughness.

MtD shatter works. What makes people doesn’t want to play it, lack of mobility that Power-Shatter offers and quite squishy compared to other condition builds in the game.

Vitality has never affected illusions, only toughness.

Fay.2357:

eozturk.7205:

@Fay. When clones started to getting benefit from toughness of the character? I remember it was vitality instead toughness.

MtD shatter works. What makes people doesn’t want to play it, lack of mobility that Power-Shatter offers and quite squishy compared to other condition builds in the game.

Vitality has never affected illusions, only toughness.

^ This

The reason Condi mesmer isn’t viable is because there isn’t a single thing you can do that a necromancer can’t do. Mesmer has Condi burst? Not even close. 700 DPS from 3 bleeds and 2 torment isn’t DPS or burst. 2k DPS from 7 bleeds, poison, and fear, that’s burst, and on top of that they’re CCed as well and have chill, cripple, and tons of other cover conditions. Don’t even try to compare condi mesmer and shatter mesmer DPS.

Elitist.8701:

Mesmer has Condi burst? Not even close. 700 DPS from 3 bleeds and 2 torment isn’t DPS or burst.

I agree that we don’t have much of a burst when it comes to condi. However, you forgot to add confusion and burning in there.

Elitist.8701:

The reason Condi mesmer isn’t viable is because there isn’t a single thing you can do that a necromancer can’t do. Mesmer has Condi burst? Not even close. 700 DPS from 3 bleeds and 2 torment isn’t DPS or burst. 2k DPS from 7 bleeds, poison, and fear, that’s burst, and on top of that they’re CCed as well and have chill, cripple, and tons of other cover conditions. Don’t even try to compare condi mesmer and shatter mesmer DPS.

Can a necro put 11 stacks of torment and 6 stacks of confusion in a second?

Fay.2357:

eozturk.7205:

@Fay. When clones started to getting benefit from toughness of the character? I remember it was vitality instead toughness.

MtD shatter works. What makes people doesn’t want to play it, lack of mobility that Power-Shatter offers and quite squishy compared to other condition builds in the game.

Vitality has never affected illusions, only toughness.

thanks for info.

Ansau.7326:

Elitist.8701:

The reason Condi mesmer isn’t viable is because there isn’t a single thing you can do that a necromancer can’t do. Mesmer has Condi burst? Not even close. 700 DPS from 3 bleeds and 2 torment isn’t DPS or burst. 2k DPS from 7 bleeds, poison, and fear, that’s burst, and on top of that they’re CCed as well and have chill, cripple, and tons of other cover conditions. Don’t even try to compare condi mesmer and shatter mesmer DPS.

Can a necro put 11 stacks of torment and 6 stacks of confusion in a second?

lol No, but neither can we consistently and reliably. Well, I guess I see the perfect scenario you’re envisioning here. 3 clones shatter and a scepter 2 block. Taking into consideration blocks, dodges and condi clears, I say I can keep on 6ish stacks consistently and sometimes 10-15 when I really perfect a rotation.

MailMail.6534:

lol No, but neither can we consistently and reliably. Well, I guess I see the perfect scenario you’re envisioning here. 3 clones shatter and a scepter 2 block. Taking into consideration blocks, dodges and condi clears, I say I can keep on 6ish stacks consistently and sometimes 10-15 when I really perfect a rotation.

Not that ideal, I’ve done it several times. Even if you don’t apply all 11+6, most of the time you can burst with 7-9 + 2-4.
By the times enemies realize the amount of condis they have it has been like 1-2s, so torment can deal 4k and confusion once or twice, 1200 each time.
About consistently, scepter block is 8s and CoF is 23s. Don’t know if necros can reapply all their condi burst that fast…

And I haven’t count staff clones. Be around with 2/3 clones and wait till the enemy uses all its cleanses and bang, burst of torment+confusion+all you already had with the clones.

MailMail.6534:

I really recommend trying out pDisenchanter. He has a high rate of attack and completely rekts in small scale fights.

Do you just use it in the same way you would use null or thievery? It seems a little odd to use a phantasm in a build that is shattering so often.

cbezzant.7154:

MailMail.6534:

I really recommend trying out pDisenchanter. He has a high rate of attack and completely rekts in small scale fights.

Do you just use it in the same way you would use null or thievery? It seems a little odd to use a phantasm in a build that is shattering so often.

In a long term fight, there will be opportunities where you don’t shatter often (see one of my above posts). You should be guaranteed to get two attacks off at least which is a LOT of condition removal for your team and a good amount of boon rip as well. The fact that it also provides you with clone fodder isn’t a bad thing. It’s less on demand condi removal and takes a bit of planning. 16s CD is not a long time, so don’t feel like shattering him is a huge waste.

Elitist.8701:

The reason Condi mesmer isn’t viable is because there isn’t a single thing you can do that a necromancer can’t do. Mesmer has Condi burst? Not even close. 700 DPS from 3 bleeds and 2 torment isn’t DPS or burst. 2k DPS from 7 bleeds, poison, and fear, that’s burst, and on top of that they’re CCed as well and have chill, cripple, and tons of other cover conditions. Don’t even try to compare condi mesmer and shatter mesmer DPS.

there are lots of things mtd can do that necro cant

necro:
maninly bleed stacks with scepter an dagger skills which if not avoided ca be around 10 stacks.
poison mainly with staff for aoe but cd is every 16 sec
torment only 3 aoe stacks every 40 sec
fear chain every 20 sec
signet if used can cover the conditions
average dps with 10 bleed stacks and 3 torment and poison is
1000+500+240=1740 dps + fear 2 ticks is 2000 dmg.
so assuming 5 sec conditions ticks it will be 10700 total dmg.

is it repeatable ? only with AA scepter mainly and dagger

now mesmer:
with the same concept AA with scpeter proc torment up to 4-5 stacks which will do around 800 dps (also direct dmg higher then the necro scepter) compare to the necro scepter 6 bleed and poison 840 dps

scepter block proc 5 torment every 8 sec – 800 dps compare to scepter grasping hand 2 bleed and cripple aoe
torch blind and aoe burn compare to dagger blind and transfer condition – so more dmg for the mesmer
image proc confusion if his compare to dagger 2 bleed and weakness aoe

now mesmer shatter can proc in average fight 6 torment and 6 confusion (i can go higher around 10 torment and 10 confusion and with prefect shatter 15 torment and 10 confusion) thus doing 1000 dps and when using skill is another 1000 dmg per skill used. and its repeatable every 20 sec or lower
necro ds skills beside the fear are more cc with chill and immobilize and 3 torment thus leavig with fear as his burst dmg

mesmer have cover condition with burning bleed weakness vulnerability poison

so mesmer average dmg will be
burning 700
bleed 3-4 stacks 350
poison – 240
torment 6 stacks – 900
confusion – 1000 per skills used
total for 5 sec and 2 skills used is 13k and with good burst proc it can be 20k dmg

now necro have more cc that is true (and also engi) that is what makes them valuable

you forget the booncorrupt . stability will be changed to fear. thats not just flat dammage, its possible to interrupt stomps or just fokus a target down.
beside that a necro is standing at 1200-900 range and aoe all of the enemys.
the condi mesmer needs to get closer. staff is more mid-close range cause the projektiels are so slow and your clones will die if the need to run alot.
to trigger the torch you need to stand between the enemys and even with added thoughniss you will melt.
moreover the necro hardcounters cele engi and ele. condi trasnfer, boon remove, chill and hardcc > confusion dmg, torment, burn dmg.

Terekhov.3670:

you forget the booncorrupt . stability will be changed to fear. thats not just flat dammage, its possible to interrupt stomps or just fokus a target down.
beside that a necro is standing at 1200-900 range and aoe all of the enemys.
the condi mesmer needs to get closer. staff is more mid-close range cause the projektiels are so slow and your clones will die if the need to run alot.
to trigger the torch you need to stand between the enemys and even with added thoughniss you will melt.
moreover the necro hardcounters cele engi and ele. condi trasnfer, boon remove, chill and hardcc > confusion dmg, torment, burn dmg.

yes necro got more cc as i have mention thus make them more valuable . but mesmer can trait for boon removable too. and can interupt res or stomp as well (not as the necro with fear, but with daze) thus i think overall the mesmer can be more valuable as he got mor dmg while if your team got guard with hammer or engi with rifle necro isnt really needed.

I think its important to note the benefit of corrupting a boon rather than ripping it. Corrupting actively punishes the celestial meta of boon stacking, while ripping just makes it harder for them to stack might.

Daniel Handler.4816:

I think its important to note the benefit of corrupting a boon rather than ripping it. Corrupting actively punishes the celestial meta of boon stacking, while ripping just makes it harder for them to stack might.

and also important to note that its a 40 sec skill 1 foe while shatter is aoe every 10 sec and AT is every every 45, null every 40
and if you punish for maybe 2 sec they will have them back up no time

messiah.1908:

Elitist.8701:

The reason Condi mesmer isn’t viable is because there isn’t a single thing you can do that a necromancer can’t do. Mesmer has Condi burst? Not even close. 700 DPS from 3 bleeds and 2 torment isn’t DPS or burst. 2k DPS from 7 bleeds, poison, and fear, that’s burst, and on top of that they’re CCed as well and have chill, cripple, and tons of other cover conditions. Don’t even try to compare condi mesmer and shatter mesmer DPS.

there are lots of things mtd can do that necro cant

necro:
maninly bleed stacks with scepter an dagger skills which if not avoided ca be around 10 stacks.
poison mainly with staff for aoe but cd is every 16 sec
torment only 3 aoe stacks every 40 sec
fear chain every 20 sec
signet if used can cover the conditions
average dps with 10 bleed stacks and 3 torment and poison is
1000+500+240=1740 dps + fear 2 ticks is 2000 dmg.
so assuming 5 sec conditions ticks it will be 10700 total dmg.

is it repeatable ? only with AA scepter mainly and dagger

now mesmer:
with the same concept AA with scpeter proc torment up to 4-5 stacks which will do around 800 dps (also direct dmg higher then the necro scepter) compare to the necro scepter 6 bleed and poison 840 dps

scepter block proc 5 torment every 8 sec – 800 dps compare to scepter grasping hand 2 bleed and cripple aoe
torch blind and aoe burn compare to dagger blind and transfer condition – so more dmg for the mesmer
image proc confusion if his compare to dagger 2 bleed and weakness aoe

now mesmer shatter can proc in average fight 6 torment and 6 confusion (i can go higher around 10 torment and 10 confusion and with prefect shatter 15 torment and 10 confusion) thus doing 1000 dps and when using skill is another 1000 dmg per skill used. and its repeatable every 20 sec or lower
necro ds skills beside the fear are more cc with chill and immobilize and 3 torment thus leavig with fear as his burst dmg

mesmer have cover condition with burning bleed weakness vulnerability poison

so mesmer average dmg will be
burning 700
bleed 3-4 stacks 350
poison – 240
torment 6 stacks – 900
confusion – 1000 per skills used
total for 5 sec and 2 skills used is 13k and with good burst proc it can be 20k dmg

now necro have more cc that is true (and also engi) that is what makes them valuable

Against good players you’ll almost never land an MtD shatter. Even if you do, necro can get the same amount of pressure by scepter autoattacking. Also you assume that people will eat the scepter block. That’s an awful assumption and I highly doubt you’re at the skill level where you can bait dodges. Not only that, but, I played MtD once in a match. Luckily I had some good players on my team to carry me because in a high MMR game where people know how to kite, MtD becomes 100% useless because you cant chase ANYTHING. A MEDI GUARD can outrun you.

Elitist.8701:

Against good players you’ll almost never land an MtD shatter. Even if you do, necro can get the same amount of pressure by scepter autoattacking. Also you assume that people will eat the scepter block. That’s an awful assumption and I highly doubt you’re at the skill level where you can bait dodges. Not only that, but, I played MtD once in a match. Luckily I had some good players on my team to carry me because in a high MMR game where people know how to kite, MtD becomes 100% useless because you cant chase ANYTHING. A MEDI GUARD can outrun you.

This is the best resposne to this thread. Yes even at levels below WTS play, MtD is bad. Simply because all in all it’s riskier to run than standard shatter or even double ranged, why? Because GS is literally our ONLY weapon worth a kitten outside of 600-900 range. You can bring up staff range all you want, but staff is really super effective at less than 600 range. Now add to that you have no way to snare people. Mesmer CC can be a very scary thing esp with focus and GS. Yet this build ony has chaos storm and diversion. Neither of which do anything but just regular interrupts. Also the AOE isn’t all that great either because each phantasm is single target as well as the Auto attacks (unless you count staff but, cmon still single target.) Now lets add to it the amount of cleanses that run rampant, as well as hoelbrake runes. Do you really think this build stands a chance in a team fight even in soloque against an ele or warrior with half a brain running meta builds?

No, no it does not. The video you posted was you running in cleaning up teamfights that were already won. Not much to be impressed about.

Elitist.8701:

Against good players you’ll almost never land an MtD shatter. Even if you do, necro can get the same amount of pressure by scepter autoattacking. Also you assume that people will eat the scepter block. That’s an awful assumption and I highly doubt you’re at the skill level where you can bait dodges. Not only that, but, I played MtD once in a match. Luckily I had some good players on my team to carry me because in a high MMR game where people know how to kite, MtD becomes 100% useless because you cant chase ANYTHING. A MEDI GUARD can outrun you.

if good player wont get hit by shatter it means also by power shatter

if you try the build and failed to hit the block than probably you dont know how to use it. look for aoe, burst skills etc.. easy to land especially versus guard.

also you make an assumption that mtd is not good while making an assumption other class and builds are just by playing one match.

and if you chase or even try you are playing it wrong
what necro got is second life pool and good cc with fear which compensate lower condi dmg compare to mtd shatter. try to do the math and you’ll see.

now i try to run this build in the lower lvl with above 20 ranked ppl.
the main problem was they expected me to play like power shatter.

while i find new group we won as i manage to pressure the mid and guard close in-between

sry to say necro gg me as i moa him as soon he lich and burst him with 15 torment and confusion. then i got whispered for well played and been ask for the build

you dont have to like it or play it

but this build works

Power shatters hit because of IP and sword immobilize. Also because of greatsword 2 from stealth. Condi mes has nothing to land shatters. Necro doesn’t have lower condi damage than mesmer. It’s not even close. And you’re saying to use the block when they use AoE but they can still dodge lol. In a teamfight you literally do NOTHING at all with this build. If there’s just one shout warrior then it basically becomes 4v5 because you can’t do any damage. This build isn’t good dude. Stop telling new players it is, they might actually believe you.

Elitist.8701:

Also because of greatsword 2.

Mirror blade is love, mirror blade is life.

Elitist.8701:

Power shatters hit because of IP and sword immobilize.

Thus, double-ranged doesn’t hit shatters either. Oh wait.

Elitist.8701:

Also because of greatsword 2 from stealth.

Ah, right. But that’s one clone + IP. So that’s a 2-clone shatter. Hmmmhmmm.

Elitist.8701:

Condi mes has nothing to land shatters.

Well… we can actually get close and personal; thus spawning the clones closer to our opponent. And unless they run off-point or dodge (which they can do vs power as well), they WILL eat the full shatter.

Elitist.8701:

And you’re saying to use the block when they use AoE but they can still dodge lol.

If they dodge the block, then they will not dodge something else (for example a shatter).

Elitist.8701:

In a teamfight you literally do NOTHING at all with this build. If there’s just one shout warrior then it basically becomes 4v5 because you can’t do any damage.

That may be the case on WTS-level, but in normal ranked arena matches (where most teams aren’t super-coordinated and extremely experienced), it very much can melt people. You can even win 1vs1 vs shoutbow warriors at times. And just today, I’ve killed the same D/D-ele (who was not extremely good but quite decent in comparison to the D/D-eles I’ve seen so far) 4 times in a row. Of course you’re just gonna say that they were noobs, but seriously… it looks like only very very few players out there aren’t noobs then. Thus, the build is perfectly fine for everything that’s not a big tournament, for which all the pro-players crawl out of their holes where they (apparently; according to some people here) are hiding normally.

Elitist.8701:

Power shatters hit because of IP and sword immobilize. Also because of greatsword 2 from stealth. Condi mes has nothing to land shatters. Necro doesn’t have lower condi damage than mesmer. It’s not even close. And you’re saying to use the block when they use AoE but they can still dodge lol. In a teamfight you literally do NOTHING at all with this build. If there’s just one shout warrior then it basically becomes 4v5 because you can’t do any damage. This build isn’t good dude. Stop telling new players it is, they might actually believe you.

so what you are saying all condi builds out there are not useful?!
you really dont know how this build works reading your post
versus shout warrior /dd ele /bunker guard the main job of the mtd build is the harass them to use their shout/cleanse/heal early so your team will have better chance to kill them quickly . to do that i need only 1 shatter F1

sure if there is both of them in the team on mid its gonna be much harder thus i look for close or far
maybe in the upper lvl when the group support each other even against direct burst dmg it will be harder or even impossible but than 95% of this tpvp ppl arent in the upper lvl like you all.

regarding necro – yes he has good condi but his burst condi combo relay on 30 sec icd skills so meanwhile he just use staff aoe for 3 bleed and poison or targeting 1 person for 5 bleed stack maybe until his signet or corrupt boon is ready. thus ending in really easy cleanse unless he catch you with fear combo chain.

condi engi is a different story with swiftness, block, cc …. maybe better than the mtd build concept

There’s definitely several limitations to MtD that are worthy of critique, but the posts I’ve seen in the last few weeks are extremely biased and borderline ridiculous (Saturn pointed out some of these quite nicely in his last post). I’m a bit exhausted defending MtD. I figure I’d just wait till I learn to take vids of my teams in un/ranked, and show everyone how much it rekts decent players. \(^_^)/

While extremely fun to watch, Messiah’s vids haven’t shown much in terms of conveying MtD’s strength. Keep giving us vids though. I appreciate them.

Elitist’s comments remind me of the many one-sided claims made for MtD in this and other threads… just the other way around. Most of the MtD defenders arguments are/were equally bad : D

Wile.5024:

Elitist’s comments remind me of the many one-sided claims made for MtD in this and other threads… just the other way around. Most of the MtD defenders arguments are/were equally bad : D

This is definitely true, but I wouldn’t say most. I think I’m a pretty fair critique (don’t we all think this about ourselves? lol).

MtD shatters are a bit harder to pull off because you don’t get to self-shatter off IP. But MtD lets you get a fair bit of offensive value out of all four shatter skills (2 Torment + 1 Confusion each, on top of their basic effect). I think it balances out, mostly. (There’s other aspects of conditions vs. direct damage, pressure vs. burst, and team roles that differentiate the builds.)

MailMail.6534:

While extremely fun to watch, Messiah’s vids haven’t shown much in terms of conveying MtD’s strength. Keep giving us vids though. I appreciate them.

what are you looking after in the vids?

i dont like to cap vids for a month for the best moments rather hop in ranked and cap what ever goes unless my team is bad

No point in arguing with you guys. Just please don’t end up on my team.

#MMRplz

messiah.1908:

MailMail.6534:

While extremely fun to watch, Messiah’s vids haven’t shown much in terms of conveying MtD’s strength. Keep giving us vids though. I appreciate them.

what are you looking after in the vids?

i dont like to cap vids for a month for the best moments rather hop in ranked and cap what ever goes unless my team is bad

I think people are looking for game changing plays in the vids. Hard enough to do on mesmer as it is. Even harder on this build. Just sayin.

MailMail.6534:

While extremely fun to watch, Messiah’s vids haven’t shown much in terms of conveying MtD’s strength. Keep giving us vids though. I appreciate them.

I like the music (might be the only one x.x ). Also, a thread comparing hotjoin with ELS is entertaining.