Guild Wars 2

serenke.4806:

Sorry for this but i’m a mesmer main and thus a duelist by nature and i am sure in the post above you meant “touché” (a word originated from fencing).

Yes you’re right of course! blush :-}

Fay.2357:

I think you need to go back and review what I’ve actually said.

Every single time I’ve discussed the viability of these builds, I’ve made it painstakingly, explicitly, unambiguously clear that they are not viable at the very top level. Seriously, go back and look. Every time I say something along the lines of ‘at every level other than the very top’.

Why do I say this? I say it because in my experience and extensive knowledge, that’s what I’ve found to be true. The very top level of play drastically limits what is viable. Outside of that, though, many different options become more or less equally viable.

Now, it can be debated whether or not my statements hold true regardless (and several people certainly have tried that debate), but to say that I’ve been making incorrect statements about what is viable at a tournament level simply is factually false.

Have you played in Go4 or ESL weekly and gotten to the finals, or even quarter/semi finals if there was a decent amount of teams? If not then you aren’t able to state that ‘from experience’.
You have me confused. First you state that it works everywhere other than very top, then you say
“…To be saying that I’ve been making incorrect statements about what is viable at a tournament level….”.
Tournament and very top are two different things.

I explicitly remember you stating that its viable everywhere other than WTS, if I searched for your posts I might be able to find where you said it, but they aren’t viable at average tournaments either(Go4, ESL Weekly 5v5..), the amateur tournaments don’t count (the french one that was held a while ago, AcademyGaming ect). It just may work there but it will work because you will get carried.

skcamow.3527:

Since this thread has turned into another MtD vs Power Shatter comparison and Supcutie was mentioned, here are a couple quotes he made about MtD a couple months ago in a different thread.

Note the tier of game play is a big consideration and has been mentioned numerous times of late in recent threads.

Supcutie.2538:

About condi shatter and team fights – because of the celestial high sustain meta right now, there is enough condi cleanse in fights to make condi shatter simply not enough damage. If you are playing Mesmer, you need the burst in order to make progress. Otherwise you need to play another class that has a better sustain (damage mitigation/avoidance and healing per damage output basically) which will allow you more room for error and more opportunities to outplay your opponents.

Supcutie.2538:

taking that much time to get your damage off in higher end games will result in your team being dead. Not to mention, generosity sigil transfers torment first every time. Sure you have more survivability with the condi spec but the ratio of sustain to effective damage output is less than shatter, especially when you consider clone pathing from positioning that you need to have and clones being killed by aoe.

Chaos and I were just talking about how there are good builds and great builds. Condi may be a good build, but it’s not good enough for high end play. Of course, having fun builds for all level of play is important

TL;DR, MtD isn’t viable at the top tier level. MtD has nice potential to wreck in soloq. In teamq it can be played with varying success depending on how coordinated teams are at various MMR levels.

maybe there is something i cant get . maybe due to not being hightier player.
lets assume cele meta with dd ele and maybe two
dd ele can cleanse 1 condi when they attune to water and when they get regen with 3 cantrips. so with 1 burst or with 2-3 clones they will have 3-4 conditions which will make them to go water and maybe use 2 utilities at least. leaving them vulnerable for 10 sec or even more if they left without cleanse but staying at water and heal.
lets assume even bunker guard or med guard. 1 -2 shatter will make them use their utilities earlier in the fight while with power they will have to use only their heal skill or get heal /regen from others.

also generosity isnt so common

and lets compare ratio of dmg over time/sustain. condi do better dmg over time while burst can down ppl fast.
i will agree that condi engi may have better sustain with blocks and water heals but their dmg compare to mtd shatter is lower.

now taking time to pull off some dmg is right point. cant argue with that. but if you need 4 ppl to target 1 player to down him then you have 3 enemies targeting one of yours. while if 1 aoe class will pressure the healer /sustain class i assuming you might have better chances as now they have to focus on who need help first.

also sry that on each tournament fights i watched the mesmer was the first to be focused or down, thus making him unable to do his rotations beside portaling or decap points like the thief job.
that was oneof the reason i looked for some other build. as in teamq as power shatter i had lower chance to survive or do my thing. while with mtd the ele always get off points for 5-6 sec as they need heal. the guardian uses all his shouts so after 10 sec my team manage to down 1 players while i shatter around him for aoe for even more punishing the res which 50% of the time result in 1 more down.
sure this build take some time to do dmg but poison for 8 sec every 10 sec and burning and 3-6 bleed with confusion and torment and vulnerability and weakness if your clones die which negate dmg isnt something to count on?!

@messiah
Any Mesmer build that is half decent will work if you are a good player at all skill levels except the very top. I’ve never had a problem with >99% of players in solo queue and most team queues (except the higher end scrims) with non shatter builds (other than maybe PU because it lacks some proactive damage), like mtd for example.

There are three problems with mtd that basically make it not work (at higher levels):
1. It relies heavily on clones shattering – This is bad because If you are in a place of good positioning, your clones will never get to your target. They’ll have to walk around the backside of keep and despawn, or they’ll walk all the way around clocktower and despawn. In addition, clones will shatter on the nearest enemy. So this makes landing damage on the intended target far less reliable than power shatter with greatsword.
2. It is literally hard countered by generosity sigil. People don’t run it now but I guarantee you if mtd became meta and there were Mesmers on more teams, tons of people would run it, and it severely hinders the spec.
3. Because your damage is less reliable in a team fight, you might be saying “oh I should be the 1v1er or in smaller engagements.” This is also not good because you don’t survive in a 1v2 better than war, ele, or engi, so you become a liability that can be avoided/minimized by playing another spec in another role.
Besides, if you are good enough you can win almost every 1v1 except vs. Thieves and some DPS Guards as power shatter anyway, so if you are forced into that situation you might as well just be power shatter so you can help your team elsewhere more effectively.

Also I wanted to add that I tested mtd pretty extensively and I do have to say that its burst is arguably more than power shatter in the 2-5 second range, if you can get it all off on one person. Shatter obviously does more instantly but when you fully stack torment, confusion and the other condis, people melt insanely fast in the following seconds. (I’m talking like if you can get the 20+ torment up)

Thanks so much for your perspective Supcutie!!

Jurica.1742:

Have you played in Go4 or ESL weekly and gotten to the finals, or even quarter/semi finals if there was a decent amount of teams? If not then you aren’t able to state that ‘from experience’.

Experience doesn’t have to be from a personal level to make a valid analysis. The vast majority of analysis conducted on any topic is conducted by people without firsthand knowledge, and that doesn’t make it any less valid.

Jurica.1742:

You have me confused. First you state that it works everywhere other than very top, then you say
“…To be saying that I’ve been making incorrect statements about what is viable at a tournament level….”.
Tournament and very top are two different things.

Hmm

Supcutie.2538:

Any Mesmer build that is half decent will work if you are a good player at all skill levels except the very top. I’ve never had a problem with >99% of players in solo queue and most team queues (except the higher end scrims) with non shatter builds (other than maybe PU because it lacks some proactive damage), like mtd for example.

cough (thanks supcutie)

Supcutie.2538:

@messiah
Any Mesmer build that is half decent will work if you are a good player at all skill levels except the very top. I’ve never had a problem with >99% of players in solo queue and most team queues (except the higher end scrims) with non shatter builds (other than maybe PU because it lacks some proactive damage), like mtd for example.

There are three problems with mtd that basically make it not work (at higher levels):
1. It relies heavily on clones shattering – This is bad because If you are in a place of good positioning, your clones will never get to your target. They’ll have to walk around the backside of keep and despawn, or they’ll walk all the way around clocktower and despawn. In addition, clones will shatter on the nearest enemy. So this makes landing damage on the intended target far less reliable than power shatter with greatsword.
2. It is literally hard countered by generosity sigil. People don’t run it now but I guarantee you if mtd became meta and there were Mesmers on more teams, tons of people would run it, and it severely hinders the spec.
3. Because your damage is less reliable in a team fight, you might be saying “oh I should be the 1v1er or in smaller engagements.” This is also not good because you don’t survive in a 1v2 better than war, ele, or engi, so you become a liability that can be avoided/minimized by playing another spec in another role.
Besides, if you are good enough you can win almost every 1v1 except vs. Thieves and some DPS Guards as power shatter anyway, so if you are forced into that situation you might as well just be power shatter so you can help your team elsewhere more effectively.

Also I wanted to add that I tested mtd pretty extensively and I do have to say that its burst is arguably more than power shatter in the 2-5 second range, if you can get it all off on one person. Shatter obviously does more instantly but when you fully stack torment, confusion and the other condis, people melt insanely fast in the following seconds. (I’m talking like if you can get the 20+ torment up)

If I can add something, me and Tek were Testing generosity sigil a month ago, it transfers the highest stack of conditions the target has, so it is not necessarily Torment.
If it is Mes vs Mes of course this would be Torment from the scept 2 + mtD. But there was an instance that I had a higher number of confusion stacks on him than torment, and it transferred confusion not torment

I do not know if this is still the case now, if you you are saying torment takes priority in transfers. So maybe it might have changed or not yet.

Oh hm maybe they did change it! Or we didn’t notice before haha. I’ll have to check it out, thanks for the heads up!

Wow, so Generosity really takes the fattest stack? That’s pretty amazing.

A lot of the power of MtD is the combination of Confusion and Torment. Generosity popping off either one right back at you is pretty brutal.

ASP.8093:

Wow, so Generosity really takes the fattest stack? That’s pretty amazing.

A lot of the power of MtD is the combination of Confusion and Torment. Generosity popping off either one right back at you is pretty brutal.

Again I am not sure as of now, Last time we tested it did.

Supcutie.2538:

@messiah
Any Mesmer build that is half decent will work if you are a good player at all skill levels except the very top. I’ve never had a problem with >99% of players in solo queue and most team queues (except the higher end scrims) with non shatter builds (other than maybe PU because it lacks some proactive damage), like mtd for example.

There are three problems with mtd that basically make it not work (at higher levels):
1. It relies heavily on clones shattering – This is bad because If you are in a place of good positioning, your clones will never get to your target. They’ll have to walk around the backside of keep and despawn, or they’ll walk all the way around clocktower and despawn. In addition, clones will shatter on the nearest enemy. So this makes landing damage on the intended target far less reliable than power shatter with greatsword.
2. It is literally hard countered by generosity sigil. People don’t run it now but I guarantee you if mtd became meta and there were Mesmers on more teams, tons of people would run it, and it severely hinders the spec.
3. Because your damage is less reliable in a team fight, you might be saying “oh I should be the 1v1er or in smaller engagements.” This is also not good because you don’t survive in a 1v2 better than war, ele, or engi, so you become a liability that can be avoided/minimized by playing another spec in another role.
Besides, if you are good enough you can win almost every 1v1 except vs. Thieves and some DPS Guards as power shatter anyway, so if you are forced into that situation you might as well just be power shatter so you can help your team elsewhere more effectively.

Also I wanted to add that I tested mtd pretty extensively and I do have to say that its burst is arguably more than power shatter in the 2-5 second range, if you can get it all off on one person. Shatter obviously does more instantly but when you fully stack torment, confusion and the other condis, people melt insanely fast in the following seconds. (I’m talking like if you can get the 20+ torment up)

THANKS!
regarding positioning – i will try to positioning myself in a spot where my clone will get shattered. also while in safe spot i create clones with scepter at target location while lets say i regen myself. although its bit slow. so i dont play like power shatter who needs a safe spot to do his #4+#2+#1 rather on point or around it. but your point is correct while in safe spot my dmg is about only AA form staff bouncing which can be annoying burning and bleeding mainly.
regarding shatter the nearest enemy – yes big problem when your team wants the burst someone all together. i see my role as harassing the cele meta like ele engi and back liner like ranger and necro. if my team need burst i have to reposition myself for successful burst. thus also i look for bunch of enemies to shatter around them like in downstate or supporting each other thus even when clones die the do some dmg with bleeding weakness etc.
generosity – kitten kitten kitten . really need to check this out thus i need to lure the sigil also to proc on low condi stacks. or even take it myself to transfer it back
if i am on 1v1 and it become 1v2 beside ele and warrior should my team try to support me. as in almost any 1v2 situation its a sure kill unless you run off point.

good points to consider.

but if all is good why this build can handle the lower tiers? is it just because ppl are bad players ?

messiah.1908:

Supcutie.2538:

@messiah
Any Mesmer build that is half decent will work if you are a good player at all skill levels except the very top. I’ve never had a problem with >99% of players in solo queue and most team queues (except the higher end scrims) with non shatter builds (other than maybe PU because it lacks some proactive damage), like mtd for example.

There are three problems with mtd that basically make it not work (at higher levels):
1. It relies heavily on clones shattering – This is bad because If you are in a place of good positioning, your clones will never get to your target. They’ll have to walk around the backside of keep and despawn, or they’ll walk all the way around clocktower and despawn. In addition, clones will shatter on the nearest enemy. So this makes landing damage on the intended target far less reliable than power shatter with greatsword.
2. It is literally hard countered by generosity sigil. People don’t run it now but I guarantee you if mtd became meta and there were Mesmers on more teams, tons of people would run it, and it severely hinders the spec.
3. Because your damage is less reliable in a team fight, you might be saying “oh I should be the 1v1er or in smaller engagements.” This is also not good because you don’t survive in a 1v2 better than war, ele, or engi, so you become a liability that can be avoided/minimized by playing another spec in another role.
Besides, if you are good enough you can win almost every 1v1 except vs. Thieves and some DPS Guards as power shatter anyway, so if you are forced into that situation you might as well just be power shatter so you can help your team elsewhere more effectively.

Also I wanted to add that I tested mtd pretty extensively and I do have to say that its burst is arguably more than power shatter in the 2-5 second range, if you can get it all off on one person. Shatter obviously does more instantly but when you fully stack torment, confusion and the other condis, people melt insanely fast in the following seconds. (I’m talking like if you can get the 20+ torment up)

THANKS!
regarding positioning – i will try to positioning myself in a spot where my clone will get shattered. also while in safe spot i create clones with scepter at target location while lets say i regen myself. although its bit slow. so i dont play like power shatter who needs a safe spot to do his #4+#2+#1 rather on point or around it. but your point is correct while in safe spot my dmg is about only AA form staff bouncing which can be annoying burning and bleeding mainly.
regarding shatter the nearest enemy – yes big problem when your team wants the burst someone all together. i see my role as harassing the cele meta like ele engi and back liner like ranger and necro. if my team need burst i have to reposition myself for successful burst. thus also i look for bunch of enemies to shatter around them like in downstate or supporting each other thus even when clones die the do some dmg with bleeding weakness etc.
generosity – kitten kitten kitten . really need to check this out thus i need to lure the sigil also to proc on low condi stacks. or even take it myself to transfer it back
if i am on 1v1 and it become 1v2 beside ele and warrior should my team try to support me. as in almost any 1v2 situation its a sure kill unless you run off point.

good points to consider.

but if all is good why this build can handle the lower tiers? is it just because ppl are bad players ?

If I may answer your last question, organized teams have a lot of condi cleanses going around, and this not just random cleanses, they will cleanse on needed times like at the moment when you just stacked up that 14 stacks of torment.

How?

1st Point

D/D eles in water can basically nullify your burst, cleansing wave + just attuning into water (traited). This is even without Evasive Arcana.

Shoutbow war, another common comp, will just remove your torment/ confusion with 1 shout. Low cd too. They usually have 3 shouts. At the same time the traited focus.

DPS Guard traited into virtues removes 3 condis on f2, Heals AoE too.
And..Bunk/Support Guard is another matter for that.

All of the stuff I listed is AoE cleanses.

This is EXCLUDING your target’s personal cleanse if he/she has it.

Again MtD will usually use Rabid, making shatters really weak, if you plan to use Carrion, you will be squishy (meaning you get focused and die)and with that fact, you might as well be playing Power Shatter.

2nd Point:

Flipping Condis

Necros, Sigil of generosity, and fellow mesmers (If someone actually brings AT because mtD became meta)

Your burst can be easily be flipped back to you, AT the Same time, majority of MtD builds only bring limited cleanses.

You will be forced to use your cleanse, on your own attack which could spell trouble for you since you can’t evade on time if ever unlike ranger (who has a lot of inherent dodges), You also do not have IP for that on demand Distortions, You might not have Illusionary Invigoration too, since I will be guessing you have IE, no ports either.

If you go full condi, you will be using scepter for sure, which don’t do anything for teamfights, which also pales in comparison with GS since you have Boon Rip AoE, An Interrupt, A Cleave Phantasm, and you can Kite At range keeping you more alive.

Then, you won’t have any cleanses left for the upcoming counter attack too.

My above points is EXCLUDING all other people focusing you which means more trouble.

Again I think the problem is the current meta we have, all this condi cleanses going on, I am also forced to think my Trap Ranger has no place in tourneys

so basically no condi class can be in the meta comp in higher tier

messiah.1908:

so basically no condi class can be in the meta comp in higher tier

I mean kinda, but depends on the enemy comp, but with the current meta, there will be those classes for sure. I barely see a pure condi class on the recent ones, if there was (I think NoS played condi necro on one of the matches) and got rekt, we could blame the current state of necro, but I think it is only part of it.

I mean DPS (guard, thief, mesmer/ranger)is still the most efficient way so thats one thing, but the other part of those comps are mostly cele, (engi, warrior, ele) which does not generally rely on condis (although they are part) because both their Direct damage and Condis are directly amplified by might and might stacking (which these classes have a lot of fire fields and blast finishers to capitalize on that)

So those above classes, even though there is rampant cleanses going around, might also boosts their DD, so part their damage still manages to go through, thats what makes them efficient. This is just the offense side of the story, cele classes also benefit from the other stats, like vit and toughness, healing power making them really durable to hold a point ON TOP of being able to do damage.

So on our mesmer dilemma, we can’t do that, since we lack those mentioned above (boon stacking, fields, finishers) going full condi will also lose you:

• Evade/Burst from Blurred Frenzy, although if you had sword, would still be useless since you lack the power stat, so blurred will be just for defense mainly
• On Demand Distortion/Daze from IP = Survivability/Safe Stomps/Res
• Shatter on crucial if you choose IE
• No kiting potential on the other weapon set making you vulnerable and hard to position ( You don’t want yourself to be AAing in Scepter)
• You can kite with Staff, but most likely you will have IE traited for max damage output, making you Lose Illus. Invig
• Shatters will hit lower than power because of the lack of power stat (again no reliable might generation to compensate
• No Ileap/Immob to make your team land bursts, and you yourself too.
• Can trait Port (So Im guessing Blink, Decoy are the next two)

So… Above are only a few pros and cons.

So let me ask you, you can try Carrion, but the bottom line is, everything you can do a power shatter can do better. So yeah.

I guess that’s it, if anyone knows I made a mistake on my posts or missed something please feel free to correct me.

Bottomline, even with the MtD buff, with the current state of this meta, I think it is hard or close to impossible to utilize MtD against organized Comps.
Again this not to say MtD is not viable, it Is in our current tiers, the usual ranked/unranked ques.

And for you sir, Try dueling better players, Players you usually faceroll in solo q are nothing compared to good players.

When you duel/face someone really skilled, you will know the difference.

StickerHappy.8052:

Shoutbow war, another common comp, will just remove your torment/ confusion with 1 shout. Low cd too. They usually have 3 shouts. At the same time the traited focus

I did not know the specializations made it in the game yet :P

Warhorn

messiah.1908:

so basically no condi class can be in the meta comp in higher tier

If it could, then Mesmer would’ve not been the first profession to run it… I tried to gave some examples from the perspective as a Condi Engineer/Ranger as to why it is not frequently used
You need to realize that Condi Builds in general compete against builds that have Heavy CC, which helps when nearly no team has or uses stab, Burst (3-2-1, load ’em up with condis does not work that well), and sustain/support… Which frankly, one build can achieve, the Settlers Spirit Ranger, but that one is just subpar as compared to an Ele or Shoutbow Warrior

Unless Sinister comes into PvP, I cannot see this changed rather quickly

GoogleBrandon.5073:

Ross Biddle.2367:

GoogleBrandon.5073:

messiah.1908:

these are not my words. go in the metabattle site and read counters. you will see heavy counter from conditions builds.

/snip

His exact quote was “every meta build is pretty much counter by heavy conditions pressure”

To which you responded by launching into a defense of “every meta team directly counters conditions”.

So misreading was your first mistake, the straw-men the second.

I know this is the Mesmer subforum – but confusion ain’t the main forté anymore since Anet decided that Torment is the way to go

However to clear up the confusion – how did I misread? I replied with the words he gave me which are
“if you keep reading closely you will see that every meta build is pretty much counter by heavy conditions pressure… MTD”
In which I replied that this is false, the meta is actually hardcountering full Condi builds, and is suspicable to CC’s – you can see this by the fact that Condi Ranger is not a thing despite being Extremely potent when not faced against the “current meta”, and the same counts for the example I gave with Condi Engi which once more seems to not be the top dog in Metagaming anymore – while Engi still has the Cele Rifle variant keeping them in the game

Second, what straw-man? I gave an in depth answer, unlike what you are accomplishing here…

I am sorry if you felt somewhat compelled to argue against me since I seem not to be in favour of MtD – but this is not my aim and absolutely not relevant to the discussion whatsoever
Besides, my experience within Condi pressure and the meta does not even come from MtD – it comes from Condi Builds in general, of which I gave the example with the King of Condis

Too bad the revenant can excessively apply both conditions upon said targets thus outperforming the mesmer.

The Primary.6371:

Too bad the revenant can excessively apply both conditions upon said targets thus outperforming the mesmer.

Meh, Anet seems to be really happy with their Torment Condition and throw it on everything they can think off…
I was not that happy to see the Revenenant having acces to brilliantly designed Hybrid Weapons/Combos, while the other old professions seem to be kicking the dirt

And as you might’ve guessed, I am extremely discontent with the way Anet’s going with Mesmers… Or at least, the path that has brought them to this point… It is saddening to see such a unique profession within it’s first itteration being brought down to the level of a Pink Cheerleadersquad
Add it to the fact that they randomly throw Torment on the Mesmer as if it is Christmas without seemingly a second thought about it’s core design, and you got a sad Brandon who does not have that much interest in the Mesmer profession as a whole… I liked confusion as a concept and punishing mechanics in general, but it seems as if Anet’s drifting away from punishing people for spamming skills

But hey, Specializations incomming… It will likely overshadow whatever the core professions are, so goodies…

StickerHappy.8052:

And for you sir, Try dueling better players, Players you usually faceroll in solo q are nothing compared to good players.

When you duel/face someone really skilled, you will know the difference.

i go for ranked and unranked fight mainly with pugs or 1-4 guildies. what ever the game trough at me i fight him. all my video were ranked and not hot join. when we lose it mostly cause of bad rotation or bad communication with the pugs

and yes the revenant really creep me as they will push the condi mesmer out to oblivion

messiah.1908:

StickerHappy.8052:

And for you sir, Try dueling better players, Players you usually faceroll in solo q are nothing compared to good players.

When you duel/face someone really skilled, you will know the difference.

i go for ranked and unranked fight mainly with pugs or 1-4 guildies. what ever the game trough at me i fight him. all my video were ranked and not hot join. when we lose it mostly cause of bad rotation or bad communication with the pugs

Ranked is full of bad players too. Tell you what, ican give you players you can duel and test your skill out.

The reason Condi (Mtd Shatter) is behind Power (IP Shatter) has been stated several times in this thread … but then we get on tangents :-/

Currently, at the highest levels, the meta is filled with classes that have plenty of ways to remove conditions from their selves as well as from their teammates. The meta also heavily features a rune set that reduces condition duration by 20%. There is no rune in the meta that does anything close to this to direct damage.

Conditions also suffer when your team tries to do a quick hard-switch when focusing on a target as they simply don’t do burst like direct damage does.

Couple all this with the fact that we don’t see whole teams of condition builds because of the non-viability of condition builds running together and you have a full picture where the few condition builds on a team (1 to 2) have their damage largely mitigated by the abundance of clears, -20% condi duration runes, etc.).

Personally, I’m a fan of MtD in a condition build as it now allows me to apply condition damage with all of my shatters (confusion + torment on every one of them) as opposed to IP which still leaves me with only Mind Wrack unless I want to get off a good Diversion traited to damage on Daze. CoF and Distortion aren’t going to be providing any direct damage burst. MtD also means I don’t have to put myself in a possibly compromising position in the middle of the fight in order to benefit from IP when applying damage via shatters.

Sadly, the currently top-level meta just doesn’t cater to condition damage. Thankfully, there are plenty of formats where teams aren’t decked out with all this anti-condition garbage and in those formats MtD is a force to be reckoned with.

I feel like people are actually coming to a point of understanding.

messiah.1908:

so basically no condi class can be in the meta comp in higher tier

That’s right, basically why adjured dropped condi necro and went power necro

shoutbow is support orientated and DD is more point bunker.

m2c

Don’t put all your cookies in one basket…. always good to have variety with particular mesmer builds so that if condi fails you still have direct damage or vice versa.

i played few rounds against orgenized guilds with staff ele and /or dd ele, hammer med guard, rifle engi, thief, power necro/ another engi

my team were 2 friends bunker guard, dd ele on ts and 2 other with no ts ranger and thief.

although it wasnt hard to land the shatter on the necro / engi thier ele was cleanse them so i turn on the ele to pressure him and boom his group just got destroyed if i manage to shatter him with 10 confusion and torment
the score was tight and the rotations called the outcome
on far or close we try 2-3 split while doing nice job
but when i was the target by a thief and hammer guard with the immobilize from both panic strike thief and guard i was preety much fast down.
i notice that they dont like to stand around me with all the shatter and chaos storm
and if we gave the ele free time the fight went harder

from 5 fights we won 3 and the last 2 loses from bad rotation response.
i asked my team what they felt about my play and build
they say that the notice the pressure on the guard and ele was good although in the first 5 -10 sec it was harder after the use all their cleanse and utilities it became easier.

they dont know if we had manage to do better if we had power shatter beside the portal
our ranger chat and say that the guardian hardly has a block on him probably from early use on his heal/skills utilities so he manage to do great dmg and pressure, same as our thief on the necro
the engi was a problem with the KD so i tried to fight next to my gardian with stability.

regarding dmg i did see some nice numbers but for 2-5 sec as they got cleanse but after 10-15 sec the tick went longer probably due to no cleanse available.

I easily kill all of you with MtD

Dirven.3021:

I easily kill all of you with MtD

/thread

See, this argument works so well because it favors everybody’s best interest. It just depends on the emphesis.

I easily kill all of you with MtD = If you’re using MtD, you get rekt by me.

I easily kill all of you with MtD = By running MtD, I rek you all!

Brilliant.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Dirven.3021:

I easily kill all of you with MtD

/thread

See, this argument works so well because it favors everybody’s best interest. It just depends on the emphesis.

I easily kill all of you with MtD = If you’re using MtD, you get rekt by me.

I easily kill all of you with MtD = By running MtD, I rek you all!

Brilliant.

Lol.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Dirven.3021:

I easily kill all of you with MtD

/thread

See, this argument works so well because it favors everybody’s best interest. It just depends on the emphesis.

I easily kill all of you with MtD = If you’re using MtD, you get rekt by me.

I easily kill all of you with MtD = By running MtD, I rek you all!

Brilliant.

Exactly, so bottomline is, you all get rekt by me!

Calypso.2578:

phokus.8934:

I can only speculate that Helseth has tried variations of Mesmer condi and it just doesn’t hold up to power shatter in top tier play. He doesn’t need to come out and list out anything to refute why condi is behind power shatter only because he’s been successful at tournament play. Then again, when someone is that arrogant, don’t expect much.

But really, no one really gives a crap about bottom tier play because you can roll out there with random traits and still kill terrible players.

When discussing build viability in pvp, it really only matters on top tier and tournament games because that is where people know where their dodge button is.

When he turns his stream/persona off, he is pleasant to talk to. I don’t know why people are still unable to differentiate between The Lord Helseth and this dude that is a decent mesmer. ANYTHING he says on Twitch/YouTube will prob be trenchant. Also, of course anyone in a guild competing for money is going to try out all the builds. They’re going to use what wins.

Also, yes. Run whatever build you want in low tier/hot join/practice play. No matter what you run, if you have a basic grasp of how to fight/play this game, you’ll get called OP, god mode, etc. no matter the build (incl. standard power shatter).

Would just like to echo what Kaaly is saying here. Braiin is the mesmer from my team and he used a slightly different variation of the traditional shatter mesmer build, which he has a very firm grasp with. It focuses heavily on team fighting, dishing out tons of damage and having decent survivability. It seems like too many people get sucked into referring to 1v1s when assessing a classes’ overall balance, when in reality spvp is a team game (especially now that the top tier NA meta has shifted back into forcing team fights.)