Guild Wars 2

Hey guys,

I wanted to take a second to start a productive discussion of the “Meta” for Mesmer. I’m somewhat new to MMORPGs in general, so I don’t exactly have a full grasp on the term meta, but from what I gather it is the most efficient and “ideal” build for a class. If I’m wrong please correct me, but if not.. then this thread really troubles me.

http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/83936-the-new-mesmer-meta/

According to this thread, the Zerker Phantasm build 10/30/0/30/0 (Dom: III/ Dueling: II, IV, X or XI/ Inspiration: II,VII, IX) is the most ideal build for dungeon runs. Due to being able to provide damage and support.

Now don’t get me wrong; that is a pretty good build. But even with my full support build I’ve rarely gone through a dungeon run that wasn’t smooth as hell, and I’m sure I’m not the only one. I have a hard time subscribing to the idea that there is one perfect build greater than all the others for dungeon runs, WvW, sPvP, or anything else.. especially considering all the different skill levels, mindsets, and playstyles of all us Mesmer players.

What do you feel is expected of you when you join a PUG in a dungeon, or in tPvP, or even WvW? How different is this from an organized group(such as a guild)?

Do you personally feel the above-mentioned build is superior to yours for dungeon runs?

One thing that’s frustrated me is the pretentiousness of some players, and the submissiveness of others. When someone posts a build thread with something like “The New Mesmer Meta” hundreds will flock to it, many will simply abandon their own builds that have been working fine, and often because they feel its “expected” of them to be running this now.

“You don’t run 30 Inspiration? You’re selfish and your build is bad.”
“Why is my build bad?”
“Cuz there’s no 30 Inspiration! Why are you using a shatter build!? You’re just holding us back!”

God forbid we take the time to have some patience and respect for others that we’d want for ourselves. If I find your “meta” unfun because I don’t enjoy a Phantasm-focused playstyle or because (gasp) I don’t want to be as generic as the 4 other Mesmer you just brainlessly mined this dungeon with, it doesn’t make me selfish.

Staff, Focus, our Glamours, iDefender, iDisenchanter, Signet of Inspiration, nearly the entire frickin’ Inspiration Line are just a few examples of why its actually pretty difficult to not have SOME supportive aspects in any Mesmer build. No one who buys this game and enjoys what they’re doing should ever feel pressured to conform to the expectations of others. That’s not to say that every build is great, but a build being “superior to all others” is more often a matter of opinion than fact when it comes to Mesmer.

TL:DR - Do you believe in a Mesmer “Meta”? If so, do you believe there is no better build than the one in the link?

As a general statement, 10/30 is sub-optimal compared to 20/20 due to the fact that you’re going to have a useless trait floating around in dueling. 20/20 allows you to make use of all your major traits.

That being said, I still often run 10/10/0/30/20 in fractals to pick up phantasmal haste for my wardens. Having the high output reflects is incredibly important in several fractals, and so I take phantasmal haste out of necessity.

And, that being said, I fully believe that using shatter builds in anything other than open world PvE is a huge mistake. You can use them, but by doing so you abandon sustained damage and utility, which makes for an objectively worse experience.

There’s no 1 best build. There are definitely bad builds.

With so many builds that work well in so many situations I think people who use the “Meta” term for standard build are incorrect. The only time we were close to a Meta build was during the confusion bomber times in ZvZ. A few Mesmers could wreck another Zerg. Fractals, dungeons and pve is really situational. Depends on group composition and dungeon directions.
So Meta Mesmer, IMO, does not exist.

I believe there is no one “true meta”. Atleast not for pve, wvw and hotjoin pvp.

If you want a support build for mesmer, all you really need is 10 or 20 inspiration for projectile reflections if the situation calls for it. Any phantasm build already has 25 inspiration, both damage and support, so theres still a huge 35 points to spend. In my oppinion these 35 points can go anywhere, and you have a functioning (possibly not optimal) phantasm build!

The minimum requirements for functioning builds are… Minimal in my oppinion. (10/0/0/25/0, 0/20/0/0/30 just to name popular damage templates).

Any new player can pick a functioning trait template and then spend the remaining points anywhere they like.

Its all a matter of oppinion offourse. Some may argue that phantasm builds outshine all builds because of their amazing sustained damage while still keeping team support.

Even with trait points st in stone, each mesmer build still has viable choices. If using 10/30/0/30/0 build you can still for example trade projectile reflection for vigor on shatter, conditon removal or manipulation range etc.

And about the one in the link:
Bunker builds have more survivability.
Boon support builds have more boons.
Shatter builds have better burst damage and 1vsX flexibility. (For pvp atleast)
10/10/0/25/25 has better illusion cooldowns (:o!) and can keep perma reflection up.

I think for pvp tournaments there isnt any choice though :/. Just 20/20/0/0/30 and anything else is not optimal. Maybe im jus biased by seeing all mesmer Tpvpers use it, and i like doing significant damage :p.

edit: fixed some spelling errors.

Sounds like you’ve been talking to too many pick-ups.

That’s a solid dungeon build, but it’s not the only viable one. I run a zerker mantra build that works very well. Not nearly as many boons, but I’m still portaling for speed runs, using pulls to group up mobs, and a well-timed reflection does wonders for the group. Stuff like that.

So far as the ‘meta’ goes, that isn’t something I subscribe to. I have entirely too many gearsets and builds designed for specific situations. I also have a great guild so I never make use of pick-ups. If our party composition is missing something, we make adjustments to cover it. If we’re lopsided, someone will swap classes. We go as a group, not a party of individuals.

Don’t listen to the masses. Find a group that works together. It makes the game so much more enjoyable.

There is currently a PvE meta that is focused on completing the content as quickly as possible, repeatedly doing the same PvE content is not enjoyable in my eyes so I agree with this. The simplicity of PvE content once it has been repeated many times means that the best way to complete it as quickly as possible is to maximise your damage output. In this light there is a “Mesmer Meta” in the sense that a build that maximises your damage output and boosts the party’s as a whole is a meta build. Brazil’s build is the logical conclusion of this it maximises damage via both gear and trait points by stacking power/prec/crit and reducing the cooldowns on reflection skills.

Basically if you accept the meta for PvE is to clear content as quickly as possible there is a mesmer meta and it is the same as the warrior meta, elemetalist meta e.t.c e.t.c, you stack as much damage as possible only diverting when the utility skills/traits enhance your damage dealing ability (as a party) more than further straight damage boosts.

If you don’t accept this meta then there is no optimal build for any class only your own build which can then be optimised via gear/trait changes/skill/weapon choices.

When it comes to WvW these forums have shown there is no real meta in some situations. Osicat for example is just as successful when using completely different builds, the randomness involved in roaming in WvW means that no build can be meta as the objectives and situations are constantly changing. There are more effective builds than others but ultimately the effectiveness of a build depends on your playstyle and the situation it finds itself in. However as with PvE when organised groups with set objectives come into play a meta does appear in the case of organised guilds and Mesmers the meta is for Null Fields, Veils and not dying. Similarly when it comes to a duel, a situation with set parameters (no running away, 1vs1), then a specific build (in the cases of Mesmers Phantasms and glass cannon) does become “more meta”.

Essentially if there is an organised group with a set objective and a consistent manner in which this objective is achieved then there is going to be a “meta build” of some description for every profession. This build is going to be one that once a player has reached a certain ability level it is the best way to achieve your desired outcome, for some situations the build will not be terribly prescriptive (WvW – take a Veil and don’t be a free rally) in others it will be (PvE Speed clear – everything must be damage).

Pyroatheist.9031:

As a general statement, 10/30 is sub-optimal compared to 20/20 due to the fact that you’re going to have a useless trait floating around in dueling. 20/20 allows you to make use of all your major traits.

I was under the impression that Brazil disapproved of GS (ranging seems to be a rather large no no in speed clearing) and as he is not shattering the 20 in domination doesn’t provide a useful trait, there is of course still a useless trait in 10/30 but the question is does 20/20 provide more damage output than 10/30 or any other combination that has the 10/20/0/25/0 base.

Edit also if you are running sword/focus and sword/pistol then 30 in dueling isn’t useless which Brazil seems to suggest its something he would rather do than use GS. Exact quote being “I don’t have need for ranged weapons apart from Dredge and Volcanic end bosses [last bit paraphrased]”

Lord Jim.3971:

Pyroatheist.9031:

As a general statement, 10/30 is sub-optimal compared to 20/20 due to the fact that you’re going to have a useless trait floating around in dueling. 20/20 allows you to make use of all your major traits.

I was under the impression that Brazil disapproved of GS (ranging seems to be a rather large no no in speed clearing) and as he is not shattering the 20 in domination doesn’t provide a useful trait, there is of course still a useless trait in 10/30 but the question is does 20/20 provide more damage output than 10/30 or any other combination that has the 10/20/0/25/0 base.

Edit also if you are running sword/focus and sword/pistol then 30 in dueling isn’t useless which Brazil seems to suggest its something he would rather do than use GS. Exact quote being “I don’t have need for ranged weapons apart from Dredge and Volcanic end bosses [last bit paraphrased]”

Greatsword is important for the iZerker mostly. It provides a large amount of aoe potential when used properly. Combined with the iWarden, a mesmer can output very strong aoe pressure.

Greatsword is trash in dungeons.

If you want to max out your damage with the autoattack you have to go to 900 range while the rest of your team is in melee, bursting the bosses down (whereas if you go sword+pistol / sword+focus you have full melee uptime, plus blurred frenzy immediately as it goes off of cooldown). You don’t need to stack might with 2 your team will either do that or you can pop signet, 3 does nothing, 5 is terrible and the only good thing is the phantasm (and cripple is useless anyway).

10/30/0/30/0 is the PvE dungeon build, I run 20/20/0/0/30 in WvW, and PvP I have absolutely no idea.

Pyroatheist.9031:

……

And, that being said, I fully believe that using shatter builds in anything other than open world PvE is a huge mistake.

Osicat and several PvP Mesmer are waiting for you on in an alley a dark night.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Pyroatheist.9031:

……

And, that being said, I fully believe that using shatter builds in anything other than open world PvE is a huge mistake.

Osicat and several PvP Mesmer are waiting for you on in an alley a dark night.

--. I meant in any PvE content other than open world PvE --

@colesy: The greatsword is useful for moving mobs around with illusionary wave if you’re good with it. You can start with mirror blade and phantasmal berserker for a good spike + aoe + might stacking + vulnerability stacking + cripple at the beginning of a fight.

Focus pull, guardian binding blade are better ways to clump mobs together (don’t ever spread them). Pull and guardian banish are good for positioning a boss against a wall as well for full group DPS.

You’re better off starting a fight popping your signet to double your party’s boons, phantasmal warden, swap, duelist then just autoattack or even blurred frenzy if it’s safe enough (frenzy is normally just so you can keep bursting if you’re about to be dealt heavy damage).

Your party will stack vulnerability and might themselves, so you don’t need to, and cripple is useless since the mob isn’t even going to be moving.

I used to use greatsword myself, but the full melee uptime and strong phantasms available to you by going sword/pistol and sword/focus plus the useful abilities (focus pull and magic bullet I’ve found hell of a lot more useful than illusionary wave which would just make your party rage) makes them a hell of a lot more worth using.