Guild Wars 2

In random queues, there are three popular specs that counter mesmer pretty hard.
1. DH
Traps+symbol have ridiculous cleave on clones. You are force to go melee to do any damage. But they have high uptime of block as well.

This is a matchup I almost never take. But in skirimishes and teamfight, they still hard counter us as they keep cleaving out our clones. Biggest headache for mesmer this meta.

2. Staff thief.
Again, tons of on-point cleave and clones die super fast. It is easy to 1v1 them if you can kite off point. But when you are under pressure to hold a point then the fight becomes more challenging. You have to play really aggressive and not making any mistakes. The staff thief has pretty good sustain so if you need to win before using up your cooldowns. Luckily, staff thief is not very good at chasing. So you can still bail out.

3. Tank druid.
Just too much sustain for us to fight against. Maybe you can get a good moa burst but the chance to win is still low. Again, a matchup i will try to avoid. But they have good mobility so you might be forced to fight against them

I also really struggled against DH and Druid this season. I was not able to find any viable counters to 1v1 a DH on point.

Condi mesmer burst is still ridiculously OP and needs a nerf. The only counter is Diamond Skin from Ele.

staff thief – take scepter over sword. the block and the 5 torment will hurt him
DH – dont fight on point – you cant. he has great condi cleanse so you just cant.
druid – scepter also good here but sword also useful. sometime i love to burst his pet so he switch them and focus on heal them than its more easy time for me. the main objective is to try to decap the point and leave portal so he have to stay for 2 min while my team does 5v4 elsewhere

Abelisk.4527:

Condi mesmer burst is still ridiculously OP and needs a nerf. The only counter is Diamond Skin from Ele.

DH wont feel the burst with all the blocks, and cleanse
DRUID – if play right wont feel the conditions
thief – evade all the time and stealth or disengage if needed
scrapper better dmg on point and cc with ok cleanse
ele – good reflect and heal skills even without diamond skin
warrior – resistance say no more
necro – backfire conditions on you but doable.

so what is so OP

L2P issue?

And the worst part… it is more than half a year of boring condi chrono meta. And thus more than half a year of me not playing mesmer.

Silverkey.2078:

And the worst part… it is more than half a year of boring condi chrono meta. And thus more than half a year of me not playing mesmer.

You don’t have to play the condi meta lol. I’m doing relatively well with marauder power burst. Requires loads more skill but its definitely doable and tons more fun than condi mes.

i am doing nicely with powerblock condi mesmer if my group is okish

messiah.1908:

i am doing nicely with powerblock condi mesmer if my group is okish

Well that is sort of the point. Having success in pug-PvP means you should be able to carry a team. I don’t feel like I can carry with power mesmer. As a matter of fact I was playing power shatter during the summer (though admittedly I didn’t play much during the summer) and had a lot of fun. But my team won if it was good and lost if it wasn’t. When I play other classes (even non meta builds like my support-condi shout reaper) I can lift a team on my own if I play well.

If played right with a sword and shield, Mesmer condi can destroy ANY CLASS. I witnessed this one guy who went by the name of Shadowplane, and he could not be defeated after 30+ DIFFERENT PLAYERS.

Abelisk.4527:

If played right with a sword and shield, Mesmer condi can destroy ANY CLASS. I witnessed this one guy who went by the name of Shadowplane, and he could not be defeated after 30+ DIFFERENT PLAYERS.

I’m too lazy to contribute anything useful right now, so I just want to make it clear that I chuckled at this.

Abelisk.4527:

If played right with a sword and shield, Mesmer condi can destroy ANY CLASS. I witnessed this one guy who went by the name of Shadowplane, and he could not be defeated after 30+ DIFFERENT PLAYERS.

Yes but imho an averege player has more rewards with scepter/shield /staff.
The build is the same except for a trait . Sword perhaps is better for a really strong player but with scepter i find it easier against many classes ( scrappers, thieves , dh , druids,revenants ) .
The only class which i don’t ever understand if i prefer sword or scepter is warrior. scepter has an easier clone uptime , a strong block and a good damage, even if you lose from sword 3 thing :
sword 2 .. evasion a lot
sword 3 mobility switching throug your clone
sword 1 boon removal ( quite strong imho )

But as overall i find scepter simpler to use for common players

A good trap DH (i.e. virtues over symbolic persistence; renewed focus over maw) is a bit of a counter to mesmer. The only way to win without losing the point is to get a really good moa burst, but that can be tough given all the blocks and blinds. On the other hand, DH has awful mobility so you can rotate around him pretty easily.

Symbol DHs aren’t too bad because they lack the burst to kill you and have less condi cleanse.

Staff thief is pretty easy once you get two things down. First, you have to get used to the evade frames in the Vault animation. The thief is vulnerable in the last 1/2 second or so of the Vault. If you time your shatters then, the thief has no way to avoid them. Second, get used to jumping when shield4 is about to end if the thief is currently dodging to make sure you get your shield phantasm. (The jump delays the phantasm summon trigger).

Agree on tank druid being a huge pain. But you can usually neut the point due to the druid popping into stealth whenever he AFs.

only thing that wins mesm 1v1 is dh and menders engi, everything else is an stalemate/ 50/50 duel (warrs, druids, engies more or less) or favourable matches (nec, rev, thief, ele…)

messiah.1908:

staff thief – take scepter over sword. the block and the 5 torment will hurt him
DH – dont fight on point – you cant. he has great condi cleanse so you just cant.
druid – scepter also good here but sword also useful. sometime i love to burst his pet so he switch them and focus on heal them than its more easy time for me. the main objective is to try to decap the point and leave portal so he have to stay for 2 min while my team does 5v4 elsewhere

Can’t dodge the torment application if I remember correctly, and the channel skill will make him blow dodges. This can open up the thief to a nice shatter.

Good advice

Azukas.1426:

messiah.1908:

staff thief – take scepter over sword. the block and the 5 torment will hurt him
DH – dont fight on point – you cant. he has great condi cleanse so you just cant.
druid – scepter also good here but sword also useful. sometime i love to burst his pet so he switch them and focus on heal them than its more easy time for me. the main objective is to try to decap the point and leave portal so he have to stay for 2 min while my team does 5v4 elsewhere

Can’t dodge the torment application if I remember correctly, and the channel skill will make him blow dodges. This can open up the thief to a nice shatter.

Good advice

Torment is easily dodgeable, just dodge after you see the block pop up. You can even block the torment application itself if you have one available.

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

messiah.1908:

staff thief – take scepter over sword. the block and the 5 torment will hurt him
DH – dont fight on point – you cant. he has great condi cleanse so you just cant.
druid – scepter also good here but sword also useful. sometime i love to burst his pet so he switch them and focus on heal them than its more easy time for me. the main objective is to try to decap the point and leave portal so he have to stay for 2 min while my team does 5v4 elsewhere

Can’t dodge the torment application if I remember correctly, and the channel skill will make him blow dodges. This can open up the thief to a nice shatter.

Good advice

Torment is easily dodgeable, just dodge after you see the block pop up. You can even block the torment application itself if you have one available.

I pretty sure you can’t block the torment only the ether bolt that is cast on counter. I thought the torment was applied on block not counter.

I could be wrong but I don’t remember ever having anyone block/dodge it on me.

Azukas.1426:

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

messiah.1908:

staff thief – take scepter over sword. the block and the 5 torment will hurt him
DH – dont fight on point – you cant. he has great condi cleanse so you just cant.
druid – scepter also good here but sword also useful. sometime i love to burst his pet so he switch them and focus on heal them than its more easy time for me. the main objective is to try to decap the point and leave portal so he have to stay for 2 min while my team does 5v4 elsewhere

Can’t dodge the torment application if I remember correctly, and the channel skill will make him blow dodges. This can open up the thief to a nice shatter.

Good advice

Torment is easily dodgeable, just dodge after you see the block pop up. You can even block the torment application itself if you have one available.

I pretty sure you can’t block the torment only the ether bolt that is cast on counter. I thought the torment was applied on block not counter.

I could be wrong but I don’t remember ever having anyone block/dodge it on me.

The way the skill goes is you get hit, the block icon shows up, and then about .25s later a hit-scan attack with 900 range applies the 5 stacks of torment. That hit-scan attack is blockable and dodgeable like any normal attack.

A trick you can do as a mesmer is that you can purposefully proc the block of another mesmer, and then block their counter-attack with your block, applying torment that way and avoiding their counter.

Scepter does have its upsides in matchups, especially against DH, and it is much better overall now. It also allows you to stay at range and generate more clones. If in unranked when I press B and see multiple guards then I go scepter/shield + staff. Otherwise I still prefer sword/shield + staff. Boon stripping, evasion, immobilization, and the ability to strike multiple targets is hard to pass up. It does take a lot of practice to get comfortable though.

Speaking of practice… one trick with sword 2 is to stow it (not bound to any key by default) quickly before you deal damage. You get ~0.5 (probably less) of evasion and then it goes on a shorter 3 sec cool down.

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

messiah.1908:

staff thief – take scepter over sword. the block and the 5 torment will hurt him
DH – dont fight on point – you cant. he has great condi cleanse so you just cant.
druid – scepter also good here but sword also useful. sometime i love to burst his pet so he switch them and focus on heal them than its more easy time for me. the main objective is to try to decap the point and leave portal so he have to stay for 2 min while my team does 5v4 elsewhere

Can’t dodge the torment application if I remember correctly, and the channel skill will make him blow dodges. This can open up the thief to a nice shatter.

Good advice

Torment is easily dodgeable, just dodge after you see the block pop up. You can even block the torment application itself if you have one available.

I pretty sure you can’t block the torment only the ether bolt that is cast on counter. I thought the torment was applied on block not counter.

I could be wrong but I don’t remember ever having anyone block/dodge it on me.

The way the skill goes is you get hit, the block icon shows up, and then about .25s later a hit-scan attack with 900 range applies the 5 stacks of torment. That hit-scan attack is blockable and dodgeable like any normal attack.

A trick you can do as a mesmer is that you can purposefully proc the block of another mesmer, and then block their counter-attack with your block, applying torment that way and avoiding their counter.

in middle of fight especially team fight its very hard to dodge the torment block proc. too much going on to see the block icon and see your aoe did proc the mesmer block

in 1v1 its doable but also you need good reflex

In any case for a common player scepter is more effective than sword.
Not everyone is lord Helseth and , as a common player ( i main an engi but scrapper is too boring and core engi is hard against condi spammers ) .
I see that i win much more match with scepter than with sword . I find many 1 vs 1 easier with scepter. I have seen pro mesmer using sword , it can be really effective, i am not understimated it , but , in my hand, it is not the same. I have not the same timing ,reflex and positioning. Scepter is much more forgivening.

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

messiah.1908:

staff thief – take scepter over sword. the block and the 5 torment will hurt him
DH – dont fight on point – you cant. he has great condi cleanse so you just cant.
druid – scepter also good here but sword also useful. sometime i love to burst his pet so he switch them and focus on heal them than its more easy time for me. the main objective is to try to decap the point and leave portal so he have to stay for 2 min while my team does 5v4 elsewhere

Can’t dodge the torment application if I remember correctly, and the channel skill will make him blow dodges. This can open up the thief to a nice shatter.

Good advice

Torment is easily dodgeable, just dodge after you see the block pop up. You can even block the torment application itself if you have one available.

I pretty sure you can’t block the torment only the ether bolt that is cast on counter. I thought the torment was applied on block not counter.

I could be wrong but I don’t remember ever having anyone block/dodge it on me.

The way the skill goes is you get hit, the block icon shows up, and then about .25s later a hit-scan attack with 900 range applies the 5 stacks of torment. That hit-scan attack is blockable and dodgeable like any normal attack.

A trick you can do as a mesmer is that you can purposefully proc the block of another mesmer, and then block their counter-attack with your block, applying torment that way and avoiding their counter.

I’ll have to test this but until then a 1/4th of a second counter is pretty tough to dodge.

Azukas.1426:

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

messiah.1908:

staff thief – take scepter over sword. the block and the 5 torment will hurt him
DH – dont fight on point – you cant. he has great condi cleanse so you just cant.
druid – scepter also good here but sword also useful. sometime i love to burst his pet so he switch them and focus on heal them than its more easy time for me. the main objective is to try to decap the point and leave portal so he have to stay for 2 min while my team does 5v4 elsewhere

Can’t dodge the torment application if I remember correctly, and the channel skill will make him blow dodges. This can open up the thief to a nice shatter.

Good advice

Torment is easily dodgeable, just dodge after you see the block pop up. You can even block the torment application itself if you have one available.

I pretty sure you can’t block the torment only the ether bolt that is cast on counter. I thought the torment was applied on block not counter.

I could be wrong but I don’t remember ever having anyone block/dodge it on me.

The way the skill goes is you get hit, the block icon shows up, and then about .25s later a hit-scan attack with 900 range applies the 5 stacks of torment. That hit-scan attack is blockable and dodgeable like any normal attack.

A trick you can do as a mesmer is that you can purposefully proc the block of another mesmer, and then block their counter-attack with your block, applying torment that way and avoiding their counter.

I’ll have to test this but until then a 1/4th of a second counter is pretty tough to dodge.

In a semi-recent patch, the delay between block and counter was drastically shortened. It used to be much longer, closer to .5 seconds.

It’s still very possible to dodge if you’re expecting it. The tell of the counter is obvious and easy to react to. It does, however, still take someone paying attention with good reflexes. It’s definitely a non-trivial thing to pull off now.

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

Fay.2357:

Azukas.1426:

messiah.1908:

staff thief – take scepter over sword. the block and the 5 torment will hurt him
DH – dont fight on point – you cant. he has great condi cleanse so you just cant.
druid – scepter also good here but sword also useful. sometime i love to burst his pet so he switch them and focus on heal them than its more easy time for me. the main objective is to try to decap the point and leave portal so he have to stay for 2 min while my team does 5v4 elsewhere

Can’t dodge the torment application if I remember correctly, and the channel skill will make him blow dodges. This can open up the thief to a nice shatter.

Good advice

Torment is easily dodgeable, just dodge after you see the block pop up. You can even block the torment application itself if you have one available.

I pretty sure you can’t block the torment only the ether bolt that is cast on counter. I thought the torment was applied on block not counter.

I could be wrong but I don’t remember ever having anyone block/dodge it on me.

The way the skill goes is you get hit, the block icon shows up, and then about .25s later a hit-scan attack with 900 range applies the 5 stacks of torment. That hit-scan attack is blockable and dodgeable like any normal attack.

A trick you can do as a mesmer is that you can purposefully proc the block of another mesmer, and then block their counter-attack with your block, applying torment that way and avoiding their counter.

I’ll have to test this but until then a 1/4th of a second counter is pretty tough to dodge.

In a semi-recent patch, the delay between block and counter was drastically shortened. It used to be much longer, closer to .5 seconds.

It’s still very possible to dodge if you’re expecting it. The tell of the counter is obvious and easy to react to. It does, however, still take someone paying attention with good reflexes. It’s definitely a non-trivial thing to pull off now.

Never had an issue landing it when being smart with the block.

I can’t think of a single reason to run scepter over sword tbh. The torment after the block is incredibly easy to avoid and at higher levels, you are never gonna land that because every ones first instinct is to dodge immediately and most will just sheath their weapon and not hit the block in the first place. Sword 3 locks down targets and can be used to kite, and blurred frenzy is a 2.5 second invuln on a short cooldown. You get your condi pressure from shatters, the idea of giving up a significantly better weapon because you want more damage when Chrono already puts out plenty of pressure is ridiculous. It would be like Daredevil running Dagger/Dagger instead of Dagger/Pistol.

As for the current meta, it struggles against DH and thats it. It absolutely destroys revenent making it the only class that really counters revenent and has so much utility with portal, AOE diversion, stuns, and Moa. Staff thief is just a gimmick build that just requires patience and honestly, I only see them like once every 5-6 games. Druid can only clear conditions from itself when it goes into celestial avatar, aka only once every 10 seconds. So you set up clones, bait out the cele avatar with low CD shatters like Mind Wreck and geo doom weapon swaps. Once he comes back out of cele avatar, he cant clear condis for 10 seconds so immob/stun into a full condi burst. Worst comes to worst, Moa…

So in short, Chrono gets countered by DH, but chrono also counters Rev… doesn’t seem that unfair…

thankitten.6307:

I can’t think of a single reason to run scepter over sword tbh. The torment after the block is incredibly easy to avoid and at higher levels, you are never gonna land that because every ones first instinct is to dodge immediately and most will just sheath their weapon and not hit the block in the first place. Sword 3 locks down targets and can be used to kite, and blurred frenzy is a 2.5 second invuln on a short cooldown. You get your condi pressure from shatters, the idea of giving up a significantly better weapon because you want more damage when Chrono already puts out plenty of pressure is ridiculous. It would be like Daredevil running Dagger/Dagger instead of Dagger/Pistol.

As for the current meta, it struggles against DH and thats it. It absolutely destroys revenent making it the only class that really counters revenent and has so much utility with portal, AOE diversion, stuns, and Moa. Staff thief is just a gimmick build that just requires patience and honestly, I only see them like once every 5-6 games. Druid can only clear conditions from itself when it goes into celestial avatar, aka only once every 10 seconds. So you set up clones, bait out the cele avatar with low CD shatters like Mind Wreck and geo doom weapon swaps. Once he comes back out of cele avatar, he cant clear condis for 10 seconds so immob/stun into a full condi burst. Worst comes to worst, Moa…

So in short, Chrono gets countered by DH, but chrono also counters Rev… doesn’t seem that unfair…

I have seen Helseth streaming dueling staff thief, scrapper, druid. He lost way more than he won against those specs.

I think it is safe to say, the only favorable matchups for mesmers are against rev, necro and warrior.