Guild Wars 2

Disclaimer: I maybe the only one to support this and you can rally behind any talking head but Scepter and Sword are comparable in utility and control.

Another patron of the Mesmer kindly pointed out the faults of Scepter compared to Sword:

“Parallels between scepter and MH sword you say? Let us count the ways.

Autoattack: Scepter is slow and does nothing but spawn a clone. Sword is fast, provides vuln, and strips boon. They both do damage.

Blurred frenzy provides 2.5s of evade, and high damage.
Illusionary counter provides a block. They both are a form of defense and offense.
Illusionary leap/swap is a double leap combo, a stun break, a cripple, and an immobilize.
Confusing images is a slow, obvious, channeled attack that doesn’t hit very hard and provides 5 stacks of confusion."

Fine observations but please allow me to retort:

Scepter is a “Set-Up” weapon. The fixation with speed is not only over emphasized but it is not needed to win every battle since as you pointed out; Sword exists for that purpose… Out of all the weapons we have that requires us to spam the #1 skill, Scepter gives us the opportunity to diversify our strategy. One Clone maybe what we get out of it but you must know the many utilities our clones provide, so I will not attempt to insult your intelligence on that front.

Blurred frenzy provides 2.5s of evade, and high damage.

Comparatively with the addition of torment you block a direct attack and you apply an immediate counter offensive. Your description of “High dmg” is build specific toward power along with my description of an immediate counter offensive with the right build catered to condition dmg.
Again, I will not insult your intelligence over the strategic application of torment.

Illusionary leap/swap is a double leap combo, a stun break, a cripple, and an immobilize.

Sword #3 is this case has many powerful abilities rolled up into one skill activation. Where Scepter 3 is comparable, is in it’s versatile strategic application you complement this skill with another. Again the fixation with how things are applied directly vs. and indirect summation of abilities and how that is ridiculed as being ineffective boggles my mind.

Confusing images is a slow, obvious, channeled attack that doesn’t hit very hard and provides 5 stacks of confusion.

Again the fixation on the speed of this attack. Confusing images is an amazing ability especially with the addition of pierce if and only if you will to apply patience timing and the willingness to think out side the box when using it.

Post after post I read people write Scepter off… If I sound condescending to anyone… Let me ask you: how do you think it feels to be spoken that way to just because I use Scepter in any game mode? How many times have I been asked to “re-roll”,insulted or kicked because just because I use a misunderstood weapon set.

I’m cryptic because ignorance has impacted our profession Negatively. The people who take the time and experiment with Mesmer know what I was talking about. The people who don’t they will be left to figure it out on their own to complain ignorantly.

As smarmy and condescending as this post “PSA…A Scepter’s Message to Mesmer’s” was perceived. My message to the Mesmer community will always be for me to challenge and provoke fellow Mesmer’s to a paradigm of their own experimentation and implementation.

Dude, we get it. You like the scepter. I have no problem with that. What I have a problem with is that you can’t seem to accept that others don’t like the scepter. You can argue your points until you’re blue in the face but that won’t matter to me. I go by my own opinion and my opinion is, the last time I used the scepter, it sucked. Now if you can actually show me a build that makes it shine and, more importantly, appeals to my enjoyment, then I’ll lend you my ear. Until then, I say the scepter sucks. You’ll just have to agree to disagree.

That is your opinion and you’re entitled to it. My only problem is that it doesn’t even show up in conversation as viable, because it is quickly dismissed as broken. I’m not here to dismiss one weapon over the other. As said before they are comparable.

The responsibility for me is not to show how to make it shine. That should occur naturally with experience. I know my stance isn’t popular and it won’t be… but for the people that are not biased they can try it instead of writing it off.

I know the play style isn’t for everybody but I can’t just sit back for people to assume Scepter is not viable. The only authority on that is the person who picks up the weapon and tries it for themselves.

Scepter is used alot out there, for example Every single of my builds uses the scepter. The most well known Mesmer orientated guild which is 80%Mesmer all but 2 of them use a scepter.

Remember that the forums are the minority, most people will never post or even visit the gw2 forums, scepter is used a lot and is quite viable, share its benefits and don’t worry about others putting it down.

I think the best way forward, Revelations, is A: Provide a build, preferably through a handy build editor. Then B: provide some video demonstrating its effectiveness.

There’s no need to compare weapons with one another. In fact, technically speaking arguments that state X weapon is better than Y weapon are quite possibly meaningless. What matters is that X weapon/build can overcome your enemies in a fight. Everything after that is preferences/aesthetics.

I’ll throw you one bone, mainhand sword demands less of the user to use effectively over scepter. But again, regardless, all that matters is the defeat of your opponents.

I’m glad calmer heads of prevailed in this…I didn’t come here to troll I wanted to provoke a change in mindset. As said I apologize if people perceived my original post as condescending… I’ve encountered and read a lot of misinformation and ego’s that flail and fling that misinformation it in the faces of players who may not have experienced all the facets of this awesome profession. Those players have made a conclusion through their own game play and stifling open dialogue about the viability of other. It’s to those folks that my post carried vitriol.

People who do impact the community with builds and videos should do it in an objective way or at least do justice to acknowledge all play styles. I understand I maybe cryptic to a fault and it is why I do not frequent the forums even though every once in a while I try…

I don’t post builds I post an idea for people to build off of…if that’s not good enough… Then I’m sorry, for wasting your time.

I’ve been having a lot of fun with scepter in my current build (phantasm – power build). I generally prefer to fight from range, and my scepter is paired with a pistol. So when I switch to that set, my priority is typically getting out the duelist. Then I have block or magic bullet if an opportunity exists and I can use confusing images if neither of those skills looks optimal yet. In the small group fights, 1v1’s, and solo camp capturing that I do, I seem to be able to land the confusing images a lot (even with the slow windup). In an ideal case, I’ll block a guard who is attacking me and then walk backwards with confusing images on and catch one or two more in the beam. Usually, there’s enough to do that my autoattack is only going to trigger a couple of times before I swap back. With mainhand sword, I used mostly just use it for blurred frenzy. I wasn’t very good with the clone-leap-swap. I slotted a sigil of generosity in the scepter, so I also use it as part of my condition controlling strategy.

I can’t say it’s great for everyone or that it’s better than a mainhand sword. I can only say that I enjoy it and it feels like it works well for me with the way I play.

I think that may be the thing I’ve learned the most so far – you have to try things out and decide what works for you. I would encourage people to try the scepter – and all the other weapons.

I think the main problem is that people don’t understand the usefulness of Scepter.

Scepter 1, with pseudo-zerk gear can hit as hard as Sword auto-attacks. Now, the DPS is slightly lower due to attack speeds(duh), but it hits nearly as hard. Most people compare skill #2 with #2 and #3 with #3.

That’s where it gets weird. I prefer to compare Blurred Frenzy with Confusing Images and Illusionary Counter with Illusionary Leap.

Blurred Frenzy will deal ~5-8k before boons.
Confusing Images will deal ~5-8k before boons.

Blurred Frenzy will give you 2.5s of evade.
Confusing Images will slap 5 stacks of confusion.

They’re both AoE (one is a beam, the other is a cone).

Illusionary Block, it doesn’t deal too much damage if it connects, but it does apply Torment which, even with no condition damage, is still really easy damage.

Illusionary Leap doesn’t deal too much damage but also acts as a stunbreaker, an immobilize and a leap finish.

My MAIN problem with Scepter is that it’s the “one-handed condi mainhand” but the auto attack isn’t condi-based. I’d rather lose the clone on auto and get some sort of condition application on the auto attack than anything else, and I’m sure people will disagree with me saying that they like the clone. I’d much rather just have staff clones out, when I’m running condi.

I’ve had the block on the scepter hit for 4k when I was testing it in Orr (must be a crit and I’m running with 80% crit damage). This is after the patch where they said they cut the damage in half. And on a successful block, I think you get a minimum of about 1500 for the torment condition (assuming the target doesn’t move).

@ Esplen, Hahaha! That’s the kind of thinking I love. Thanks, I see exactly what you are hinting at with scepter 1. I think adding a condition to it would increase our reliance on spamming #1. To your last point I run debilitating dissipation and use my clone for LoS. I have thwarted some Shatter Mesmer’s with that trick it foils their Illusionary leap. With a timely addition of torment it can be deadly for all the mobility a shatter Mesmer or any Mesmer has in combat.

My White Witch build uses Scepter. What you are doing however has relatively no point. Aside from the blatant attacks you throw out in your two threads and the arrogance you seem to have in your knowledge, one cannot simply compare weapons because weapons don’t make a character. The weapon is a part of a build for which you provide no traits what so ever or gear or anything. I guess you could actually retrait and then not put traits into ANYTHING and duel with just weapons to find out which is better but I think in that case Scepter would lose and thus not help your “noble” cause for reviving scepter.

I also have never been kicked from anything because I mained a Scepter so it may be less the weapon and more the user.

-enjoy your scepter while you can…after that last SOAC gaming podcast, Kylia is going to get it nerfed :p.

@Haxxen You’re post history indicates to me that you are not one to make direct/indirect attacks at people. You have very constructive criticisms and observations.. What I mean:

“I also have never been kicked from anything because I mained a Scepter so it may be less the weapon and more the user.”

I guess you are implying I get kicked because of how I play? Crude but an effective belittlement of me without knowing anything about me… :/ I made mention of whom my target was for my initial post and there was collateral damage to the Mesmer community…and I promptly apologized. So if I have rubbed you the wrong way and you feel the need to put me in my place. I understand. Again, apologizing is all that I can do…

I play the way I do because I feel strongly about that play style. It’s a philosophy of sorts. Almost a year playing Mesmer has almost passed and all builds I have encountered use a basic formula and dichotomy between Direct Damage and In-direct summation of Condition Damage and I advocate perhaps to a bias the latter. That fervor which I bring to that play style I believe is no different than those who post builds and advocate for their play styles just a different methodology.

bobross.5034:

-enjoy your scepter while you can…after that last SOAC gaming podcast, Kylia is going to get it nerfed :p.

You can nerf the Scepter even more??? o_O
:P /sarcasm

I find it funny when people say Scepter #3 doesn’t hit hard. Maybe it’s a different Scepter skill than the one I’m using? That attack is a beast, slow as it might be. It scales quite well with power, too.

You should add..

Scepter #1 is projectile and can be blocked by anti Projectile and Sword #1 is Melee.

The damage for Sword #2 vs Scep #3 is nearly equal in Power Build. Probably Scept deals more if u count the confuse even u’re Power Build.

As for me i prefer Sword Main Hand coz it’s look cooler and has nice AOE immobile for teamplay.

Comparatively with the addition of torment you block a direct attack and you apply an immediate counter offensive. Your description of “High dmg” is build specific toward power along with my description of an immediate counter offensive with the right build catered to condition dmg.

If you’re fighting someone skilled in PvP the Scepter#2 is only good for preventing the damage of an attack; the actual riposte and Torment will be dodged by a decent player as there is a 0.5s~ window after hitting the block before the counterskill actually does anything.
You can get the block off easily against anyone with precision timing, but you’ll only ever get the counterattack damage on poor players, but as a Mesmer you’ll have no problem obliterating poor players using any weapon set anyway.

@Sephire Good players are not impervious to a bad situation or mistakes. There are many instances where a good player is out of tricks and dodges. The same way you pointed out where landing torment could fail there is the same likeliness that it will succeed. You play Mesmer and you know good Mesmer’s just don’t fall over or give up a strategy because it failed once we improvise and find the best opportunities to employ those skills to a devastating effect.

What about sceptre’s dependence on range?

On paper sceptre’s single target DPS is superior to sword. However the reality is that each step in the attack chain is dependent upon the projectile landing before it rolls over to the next stage making the attack considerably longer than the stated half second.

This leaves you with a mainhand that does inferior ranged and melee DPS (Since you cannot strike multiple targets if you stand in melee). As for #2, there really isn’t a strategic use of torment, the extra damage from torment, even specced strongly into conditions won’t usually deter people from moving and the block really isn’t as useful as a damage preventer as blurred frenzy, and I don’t really see how a high DPS channel/confuse has anywhere near the same strategic applications of leap/swap (A clone generator, leap combo, gap closer, crippling immobilise)

As many people have said, that doesn’t make it useless – many people including me routinely make use of sceptres in certain situations, however sceptre is essentially a range weapon swap, greatsword is the swap it’s more likely to be replacing and in that respect it has many favourable comparrisons (GS3 is virtually worthless, GS2 and Sceptre 3 are comparable in damage, GS is subject to range penalties so in CQC sceptre does superior DPS and produces a clone – this also better positions you for melee swaps, GS has no block built into it and Sceptre allows you to choose your own offhand/phantasm)

Revelations.3154:

@ Esplen, Hahaha! That’s the kind of thinking I love. Thanks, I see exactly what you are hinting at with scepter 1. I think adding a condition to it would increase our reliance on spamming #1. To your last point I run debilitating dissipation and use my clone for LoS. I have thwarted some Shatter Mesmer’s with that trick it foils their Illusionary leap. With a timely addition of torment it can be deadly for all the mobility a shatter Mesmer or any Mesmer has in combat.

I actually also run Debilitating Dissipation, but I still feel like staff clones are just better, maybe if the final auto attack was also 0.5 seconds instead of a full 1s (even 0.75 or 0.66 would still feel better).

And, I double checked the numbers just now. Scepter hits just as hard (and as fast as) Sword autos, BUT, the final attack is slower by 2×. A full Sword auto combo is 1.5s, a full Scepter auto combo is 2s.

I just had a really weird idea and it kinda makes sense. Imagine if they took out the clones from scepter auto and gave it a condition (possibly torment,) and then, to still maintain a reliable clone-generation, gave Confusing Images clone creation on each successful hit. This would mean that Confusing Images could potentially create 15 clones in a very, very short period of time (faster than you can shatter due to the global cooldown on shatters), this would provide you with an instant 3 clones and also utilize debilitating/crippling dissipation. The clones could pop out in a random area near the beam and explode immediately after creation with a finale of something nice.

It’ll never happen, but that would be interesting to see. Heck, if they had that and no condition (or clone gen) on the auto, I’d still love it.

sephire.7296:

Comparatively with the addition of torment you block a direct attack and you apply an immediate counter offensive. Your description of “High dmg” is build specific toward power along with my description of an immediate counter offensive with the right build catered to condition dmg.

-snip-

I can confirm this. There is indeed a ~0.5s window. But i suppose it’s such a small window that if a skilled player can utilize it, they deserve to get away with it. This is where skillplay and timing matter a lot for both attacker and defender.

I see there are 3 scenarios here:
- iCounter too soon and the opponent will not attack you at all. —> no benefit
- iCounter still too soon (expect an attack will hit during the later second of channel time) and the opponent, while attacking you, can see the block coming up and evade it in time.
- iCounter just at the right time (expect an attack will hit during the first second of the channel time) so that the opponent doesn’t see you blocking at all until the attack actually connects. To me, 0.5s is too short for a human reaction if you don’t expect a block in advance.

I use scepter in my Flowing Images build along with pistol mainly because I enjoy being in mid-range, though I don’t mind going melee with the sword.

Esplen.3940:

Scepter hits just as hard (and as fast as) Sword autos

This is only true on paper. In reality, since the next chain will not start until the bolt reaches the target, the scepter is far slower than the sword chain. At melee range, the scepter is the same speed as it shows on paper, and it gets slower and slower the farther away from your target you are.

@Ryuujin I don’t know what game mode your primary experience is from. PvE/WvW or S/TPvP so excuse any liberties in my assumptions. If were are talking WvW Scepter can be deceptively devastating for example… When an enemy engages me for a split second they pause and execute an opener. Since the patch I start with scepter out instead of Staff solely because I went to set the pace of the battle in my favor by apply immediate mobility pressure along with my other DPS skills. It gives me space to set up for the next wave of attacks. In S/TPvP Scepter starts me off with a free clone and 3% less damage an aware player knows that is a fake and immediately closes in right into Scepter 2 which is a second clone and possibly a stack of torment at this moment the sky is the limit I can get another clone and activate a shatter or I can employ a different strategy.

The difference I will say again with Scepter is that it is a Set-Up weapon. It gives me options that one are not obvious until employed. Anytime I see a mesmer in sword unless they stealth I know the exact combination of moves they will use before they have to stealth and reset. Shatter mesmers excel at overwhelming defense with direct effective use of high offensive DPS and stealth/blinks if in a jam. That pace is set by your ability to offload DPS the pace the scepter allows in one that reacts off the situation you’re in to apply an effect/condition indirect and in conjunction with other attacks.

Sword is not fool proof experienced people dodge the initial and secondary effect of Illusionary Leap it’s that obvious… liabilities also reside with scepter but in different scenarios.

Glad to see that this good post didnt degrade into some sort of verbal attack of 2 sides (aka sword vs scepter)
@Revelations: can you rename the thread title to something looks less biased like Comparison betwen Sword and Scepter? A lot of good thoughts about both weapons here.

I think that would be more useful for new Mesmers to make well-informed decision on which one to pick to suit their playstyle.

My comparison of the two weapons goes all the way back to the way they were designed and their natures. I’m not comparing numbers or stats here as the seniors are more knowledgeable in this area.

Sword: i think the nature of sword or the way it was designed is to intimidate. Let’s think about it and it makes total sense to why power/shatter builds align so well with this weapon.
– Overwhelming power: both in terms of damage output and visual animation
– Active defense: Blurred Frenzy
– Aggressive utility: rip boons, immobilize, cripple, gap closer.
– Melee and fast and furious attack rate: you get up close and personal, and deliver the deadly blow.

This means people with aggressive playstyle will absolutely love this beast.

Scepter: on the other hand, it’s more about subtlety and trickery. It’s more about baiting enemies into a condition where you gain the upper advantage without they realising it until it’s too late. Hence, its a ‘condition’ weapon or as in OP’s words – a set-up weapon.
- Slow and not so overwhelming attack: so the enemy doesn’t get scared off and run away at first sight. Ranged weapon: hit-and-run tactic, kiting, baiting.
- Produce clone to trick and confuse
- More passive defense through block and emphasize counterplay
- Reactive conditions: conditions hurt but not so much that tough enemies still think they can shake them off and thus more likely to risk the consequences.

This very different nature of scepter will certainly intrigue people of a different taste to those using swords. Scepter wielder punishes enemies for reckless actions while tricking the enemies into thinking they would prevail while the conditions clearly showing the opposite result.

Intimidation and Trickery are key aspects that our mesmer class is built upon and
they are both equally intriguing. We gang up on while at the same time, confuse enemy with all these illusions we have at our disposal. And I think we all agree this makes the class so much fun to play.

That’s why I have so much fun playing this profession

So that’s my comparison. What do you think, guys? Does it make sense?

Revelations.3154:

@Haxxen You’re post history indicates to me that you are not one to make direct/indirect attacks at people. You have very constructive criticisms and observations.. What I mean:

_"I also have never been kicked from anything because I mained a Scepter so it may be less the weapon and more the user."

It’s Hexxen with an “e” but that aside, I can’t tell if you are being serious or not cause I personally know I attack people but I fess up to it. ^^

That being said I was less saying that you are simply a bad player and more about the way you talk. If you spoke in a party of mine with the way you worded your first two OPs of the two threads I would kick you as well.

keenlam.4753:

-snip-

Now that is quite a detailed comparison and point of view of the sword and scepter! No wonder I seem to enjoy the trickery aspects more than intimidation! Both do help overwhelm opponents. In addition, the staff and GS could also represent the trickery and intimidating respectfully; the offhands do have a mix of both (with phantasms being the intimidation factor and the other skill is more trickery).

Anyways, very nicely done on explaining the two weapons!

Random fact about scepter: You can “charge it up” if it doesn’t have a target. Double tap auto attack then select a target then auto again for an “instant” clone.

Perspective: Mostly PvE/some WvW Zerker 20/20/0/0/30 “Full melee” shatter mesmer. Since sword is a true melee weapon that cleaves, it is the obvious choice when there are two or more enemies. Normally, I run sword/sword/focus but for some bosses/roaming fights I would like to make an argument for why scepter is a decent swap to use. Blurred Frenzy now has a 9.5 sec cd when traited. Leap/swap is about 7 seconds. Since weapon swap is a 9 second cd, you can swap to a new weapon right after blurred frenzy then swap back to the sword in time for the next blurred frenzy. So for those 9.5 seconds that blurred frenzy is on cd, we need to compare sword auto attack & leap to a fresh new weapon.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Esplen.3940:

Scepter hits just as hard (and as fast as) Sword autos

This is only true on paper. In reality, since the next chain will not start until the bolt reaches the target, the scepter is far slower than the sword chain. At melee range, the scepter is the same speed as it shows on paper, and it gets slower and slower the farther away from your target you are.

Since IP shatters have a range of 240, I try to stay in melee as much as possible and usually manage about 90-95% of all PvE/Dungeons. So this on paper vs practice is the same in a lot of fights for me. Furthermore, for ~4 of those 9 seconds, I can use scepter 2/3 at range. The offhand doesn’t count since you can swap just off hand weapons. So, for the other 5 seconds of that 9 second weapon swap cd, I can use the scepter auto as a melee weapon that summons more clones to blow up.

So now that I have explained a scenario where the scepter is a potentially viable “melee” weapon, I’d like to compare it to the other ranged weapons or even the sword auto attack with numbers from steady weapons in the mists:
The two “melee” weapons:
Sword 1: 171/171/309 (No boons on golems or most pve enemies, 2 vulerability)
Sword 3: … hold them down + clone

Scepter 1: 136/136/204 (Plus clone F1=313 F2=89+ confusion, F3=5 or 8 vulerability )
Scepter 2: 218 in 0.5 seconds for 436 DPS + clone + Torment 2,494 (maybe x2)
Scepter 3: 136 × 5/3 = 227 DPS + 5 confusion (505 confusion: just time it well)

The staff IFF you bring elasticity instead of precise or compouding:
Staff 1: 90 × 2 + boons/random condition.
Staff 2-5: 3/5 are about power but 35 second cd in my build are =( Does have great defense and I will bring for some fights but I’m talking about PvE IP shatter.

GS 1: If in IP range, 159 for the 3 hits. 198 at 600 range. I try to never go further than this unless its those first two jade maw tentacles and a few bosses.
GS 2: 208, 214, (220 with elasticily) with some might/vul. So about 422 or 642 DPS. Can be used twice on swap. +2 clones.
GS3: 252 but requires a bit of aiming.

Keep in mind, the condition dmg is based on 30 illusions. Might stacks can get these higher. So for those 9.5 seconds of blurred frenzy cd, the scepter actually has better damage and defense than just sword auto attack and you can still be at around 240-600 range with that “melee” burst weapon. I left phantasms out of the math as they can be very situation dependent, especially for a shatter mes.

So now, lets compare the 3 ranged weapons when used with ideal IP shatters in mind. Elasticity helps the GS and Staff a lot but I don’t usually like taking the trait as it doesn’t benefit my sword and I lose precise or compounding. However, If I swap traits for a specific fight, the staff/scepter auto attacks have similar damage. However, while both can have decent defense, the scepter has higher spike single target damage and faster clone generation with auto and counter. For burst dmg, the gs 2 and scepter 2 are very close. This depends on how much armor a target has.

Even though I’m full zerker, I still think the conditions need to be kept in mind since scepter 2/3 can easily hit 3k condition dmg and maybe 6-10k. for faster attacking/moving targets.

TLDR: Against single targets, when blurred frenzy is on cd, it is better to swap to a scepter if you want to keep meleeing a boss.

Revelations.3154:

I’m glad calmer heads of prevailed in this…

Troll! Troll in the dungeon!

I didn’t come here to troll

Too late…

I’m all for the scepter, but I don’t think your approach is well received.

well like u said u came here to provoke, i see though that u would like others to give scepter a try, but u know there is a french saying “c’est le ton qui fait la musique” which means it is the tone that makes the music and u came across arrogant and quite rude. provoking to change peoples mindset can work, but u gotta make sure u are being respectful while doing so. this thread sounds much better and is open for a constructive discussion.

i agree with u that mesmers that haven’t tried scepter out, should give it a shot. I have been using scepter for months now and still love it. it does take a little time though to get used to it, if u swap over from gs or sword. it;s 3 attack seems to be bugged a little though since last patch, I’ve noticed it doesn’t inflict confusion anymore.