Guild Wars 2

In many mesmers builds we usually take very similar utilities; blink, decoy, and something else of our choice. If we want to take two other utilities we must remove blink or decoy, both of which seem to be almost mandatory. Blink for positioning and decoy to re-position and disengage. I’d like to think we can live without decoy (and maybe blink?) which leads me to these questions.

Can mesmers still survive well with a high dps build and no stealth?
Do you use decoy in your build?
If so, why?
If not, why not?

Depends on what you’re doing, and whom you’re with. If we’re talking about PvE, then you could get away with it no problem, if you’re running in a big group, say WvW, sure, you could also be fine. However, when it comes to 1v1 roaming situations, small scale skirmishes and sPvP where you’re more than likely to be targeted, than no.

I think you can live without it but it’ just soo good.

theCOREYCOLAK.5698:

Depends on what you’re doing, and whom you’re with. If we’re talking about PvE, then you could get away with it no problem, if you’re running in a big group, say WvW, sure, you could also be fine. However, when it comes to 1v1 roaming situations, small scale skirmishes and sPvP where you’re more than likely to be targeted, than no.

We’ll keep this on WvW and PvP. Decoy in PvE is useless unless you’re stealth skipping.

I think its tough to get away from in Zerker builds. However, two of my three primary builds forgo Decoy:

1) Maim build→ Blink, Resolve, Mirror Images
2) Celestial Signet build → Distraction, Midnight, Domination

for a while I used to play a phantasm build “that worked really well” and never used decoy.
I usually use “daze mantra, blink and portal”
my survavibility depends on pulling off nice interrupts and keeping safe distance since I’m playing gs\staff
But for a while now I switched to shatter and it’s a must :P

Oh definitely. I mean I rather not but I do slot in Portal occasionally in exchange for it when I’m playing with a competent team.

Blink is an ENTIRELY different ball-game though, that is 100% (in my opinion) mandatory in every build. You’re just gimping yourself otherwise.

In any glass build? I would say it’s just too good to pass up – it’s instant, get out of jail free card when things get too hot, remove target from your head, free clone, stealth stomps/rezzing, stunbreak, stealth engage, etc…

In a bunker build sure, given you can handle the heat better.

I don’t know if I could play without decoy in any build though (unless weird things like full signets or full mantras) – it’s too kitten good.

It’s pretty simple.

• If a Mesmer wants to be able to deal damage he has to take decoy and blink to survive.

• If a Mesmer doesnt mind not being able to kill anything he can take whatever utilities he likes because he’s built a survival troll build that can achieve that.

• Survival troll builds may also be known as support builds in spvp, where they’re actually useful

Its pretty important to cover yourself from steal recharges and also the best stunbreaker you can take outside blink (freeing up blink to be used for mobility and bursting).

In open world pve, blink is entirely optional. I have never used it. Occasionally, I did put it on my bar, but I never found it necessary to actually use it. It was wasting a spot that was better used for another utility.

I have used decoy, though. Still, I would rather use another utility since I don’t really find that necessary, either.

My opinion on these is based on my using gs/staff phantasm build. I have used shatter builds at time, but just didn’t care for it. I always go back to phantasm.

Ross Biddle.2367:

It’s pretty simple.

• If a Mesmer wants to be able to deal damage he has to take decoy and blink to survive.

• If a Mesmer doesnt mind not being able to kill anything he can take whatever utilities he likes because he’s built a survival troll build that can achieve that.

• Survival troll builds may also be known as support builds in spvp, where they’re actually useful

While i dont totally agree..

to go slightly more in depth

Blink – Awesome skill, its our best mobility skill and its hard to get by without it.

Decoy – Not 100% needed. You can survive without it and use other options even on Glassy Shatter builds in sPvP But Stealth is OP. You can take condition cleanses or whatever and add a bit to your builds lacking spaces but its really hard to compete with instant stun breaking “cant target me and cant see me” stealth. Without decoy, getting focused and downed is far more likely to happen the higher up you get in skill levels.

Other choices for this slot i would suggest for a Glassy shatter

Mirror Images
Mantra of Pain
Mantra of Distraction
Sig of Domination

I run a no-stealth Mesmer setup just fine, which works perfectly okay for all game modes, and that without needing to swap any gear or traits. Sure, I get killed if I am outnumbered (as to be expected), or a decent Thief is on me. Sure it can be annoying to fight HP regeneration-master-race Warriors or survivable not-really-all-that-glass cannon-but-hits-like-a-truck-nonetheless-since-their-re-balance-which-took-a-balanced-profession-I-loved-and-made-it-unbalanced Guardians.

But if you need Decoy? No. You don’t need The Prestige, Veil or Mass Invisibility either. You can be competitive without using the crutch that is stealth. That’s how I see it, a crutch, as hiding from sight is not a display of skill. The enemy couldn’t see you or what you were doing. Hence, it’s a crutch.

It can be something that tricks you into thinking you may be decent, when you really aren’t (in the majority of cases) the second you stop using it. And that sudden change from being a winner to a wiener, is not because the profession needs stealth to function. It is because you actually used a crutch and aren’t as good as you think you are. Try it, if you’ve been a stealth user for a long time. It’s kinda like thieves saying they need stealth (beyond triggering in-stealth skills, e.g., Backstab) when a great Thief knows that they have so many evades that stealth is not entirely necessary for them. Once in a blue moon you come by them, but they’ll demolish you as well. The good players, not the ones that ride on a crutch.

I am a proud Mesmer, proud of not using stealth. You can probably defeat me just fine in PvP, but I don’t care. At least I weren’t using stealth. That said, if you enjoy using stealth skills, and that is fun to you, by all means, use it, have fun. That is ultimately what matters. Just be humble enough to realize it is a OP tool that means you probably aren’t as good as you may think you are, even if you win a lot of 1 v X.

Absconditus.6804:

I run a no-stealth Mesmer setup just fine, which works perfectly okay for all game modes, and that without needing to swap any gear or traits. Sure, I get killed if I am outnumbered (as to be expected), or a decent Thief is on me. Sure it can be annoying to fight HP regeneration-master-race Warriors or survivable not-really-all-that-glass cannon-but-hits-like-a-truck-nonetheless-since-their-re-balance-which-took-a-balanced-profession-I-loved-and-made-it-unbalanced Guardians.

But if you need Decoy? No. You don’t need The Prestige, Veil or Mass Invisibility either. You can be competitive without using the crutch that is stealth. That’s how I see it, a crutch, as hiding from sight is not a display of skill. The enemy couldn’t see you or what you were doing. Hence, it’s a crutch.

It can be something that tricks you into thinking you may be decent, when you really aren’t (in the majority of cases) the second you stop using it. And that sudden change from being a winner to a wiener, is not because the profession needs stealth to function. It is because you actually used a crutch and aren’t as good as you think you are. Try it, if you’ve been a stealth user for a long time. It’s kinda like thieves saying they need stealth (beyond triggering in-stealth skills, e.g., Backstab) when a great Thief knows that they have so many evades that stealth is not entirely necessary for them. Once in a blue moon you come by them, but they’ll demolish you as well. The good players, not the ones that ride on a crutch.

I am a proud Mesmer, proud of not using stealth. You can probably defeat me just fine in PvP, but I don’t care. At least I weren’t using stealth. That said, if you enjoy using stealth skills, and that is fun to you, by all means, use it, have fun. That is ultimately what matters. Just be humble enough to realize it is a OP tool that means you probably aren’t as good as you may think you are, even if you win a lot of 1 v X.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

You’re in desperate need of reading this. Play to win.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Absconditus.6804:

I run a no-stealth Mesmer setup just fine, which works perfectly okay for all game modes, and that without needing to swap any gear or traits. Sure, I get killed if I am outnumbered (as to be expected), or a decent Thief is on me. Sure it can be annoying to fight HP regeneration-master-race Warriors or survivable not-really-all-that-glass cannon-but-hits-like-a-truck-nonetheless-since-their-re-balance-which-took-a-balanced-profession-I-loved-and-made-it-unbalanced Guardians.

But if you need Decoy? No. You don’t need The Prestige, Veil or Mass Invisibility either. You can be competitive without using the crutch that is stealth. That’s how I see it, a crutch, as hiding from sight is not a display of skill. The enemy couldn’t see you or what you were doing. Hence, it’s a crutch.

It can be something that tricks you into thinking you may be decent, when you really aren’t (in the majority of cases) the second you stop using it. And that sudden change from being a winner to a wiener, is not because the profession needs stealth to function. It is because you actually used a crutch and aren’t as good as you think you are. Try it, if you’ve been a stealth user for a long time. It’s kinda like thieves saying they need stealth (beyond triggering in-stealth skills, e.g., Backstab) when a great Thief knows that they have so many evades that stealth is not entirely necessary for them. Once in a blue moon you come by them, but they’ll demolish you as well. The good players, not the ones that ride on a crutch.

I am a proud Mesmer, proud of not using stealth. You can probably defeat me just fine in PvP, but I don’t care. At least I weren’t using stealth. That said, if you enjoy using stealth skills, and that is fun to you, by all means, use it, have fun. That is ultimately what matters. Just be humble enough to realize it is a OP tool that means you probably aren’t as good as you may think you are, even if you win a lot of 1 v X.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

You’re in desperate need of reading this. Play to win.

I already play to win. That’s why I run a build that actually shares the 16 stacks of Might I can generate within about 5 seconds of engaging. Why I back up my team members who are outnumbered and why I play for the points, and not for necessarily the individual kills. Everyone gets killed if outnumbered, it happens if you have stealth or not. Every profession has a counter that somewhat melts them. You can play to win, while still actually improving skill wise, which stealth is not really helping you with. All stealth does is make you invisible to your enemies, meaning they had no real way of reacting to what you did as you were hidden from sight. They can predict, and most decent players will, but they can’t know. You also break targeting, instead of learning how to survive using our various abilities to interrupt, evade and deal damage, while being the constant target of damage. Not sure what half the things you highlighted in bold text were supposed to point out either.

Eh. Decoy is like Deceptive Evasion in this case: namely that certain builds can go without it, but in general, it gives too many benefits to easily pass up. I could see a phant or heavy-mantra spec not using it, however.

There was a similar problem RE: Eles and Cantrips … considering what happened to stop their “reliance” on ‘em, I think we’re better off learning to love the Decoy.

Gosh, this comment is just a virtual goldmine. Right, here we go…

Absconditus.6804:

I run a no-stealth Mesmer setup just fine, which works perfectly okay for all game modes, and that without needing to swap any gear or traits.

So this right here is an incredibly laughable statement to anyone that actually has experience with mesmer. There’s not a single build that works effectively for every game mode (WvW zerg, WvW roam, Dungeons, open world PvE, tPvP). Maaaaaaybe you could find something that works sorta ok for all of them with some weapon and major trait changes, but I sorta doubt that too.

What I’m actually taking away from this statement is ‘I run a build that works somewhere between ok and just better than awful for all game modes’. Ok, lets continue.

Absconditus.6804:

Sure, I get killed if I am outnumbered (as to be expected), or a decent Thief is on me. Sure it can be annoying to fight HP regeneration-master-race Warriors or survivable not-really-all-that-glass cannon-but-hits-like-a-truck-nonetheless-since-their-re-balance-which-took-a-balanced-profession-I-loved-and-made-it-unbalanced Guardians.

What this statement is saying is ‘Sure, I get killed if I fight anyone competently using a good build’.

Absconditus.6804:

But if you need Decoy? No. You don’t need The Prestige, Veil or Mass Invisibility either. You can be competitive without using the crutch that is stealth.

Oh boy, someone using the word ‘crutch’ again. Right, lets see how you define it, this should be interesting…

Absconditus.6804:

That’s how I see it, a crutch, as hiding from sight is not a display of skill. The enemy couldn’t see you or what you were doing. Hence, it’s a crutch.

Well, this is a more creative definition of crutch than we usually get. It still makes zero sense, but it is creative. So because the enemy couldn’t see you or what you were doing, it’s a crutch. This…makes zero sense. What you’re saying is that anything giving you an advantage in a fight is a crutch. Taking this logic and running with it, we can assume that you also fight naked, because using good gear and runes is a crutch that lets you do too much damage to your opponents. Additionally, you don’t like dodging, because having frames where the enemy can’t hit you is obviously too easy and not a display of skill.

Your crutch-less fights, we can all assume, consist of you nakedly spamming 1 through 5 (but not blurred frenzy, because evade frames are unskilled) whilst standing in front of your opponent with minimal movement.

Absconditus.6804:

It can be something that tricks you into thinking you may be decent, when you really aren’t (in the majority of cases) the second you stop using it. And that sudden change from being a winner to a wiener, is not because the profession needs stealth to function. It is because you actually used a crutch and aren’t as good as you think you are.

No, that sudden change from winner to wiener, as you put it, is because you were using a good build, and now you’re using an awful build.

Absconditus.6804:

Once in a blue moon you come by them, but they’ll demolish you as well. The good players, not the ones that ride on a crutch.

But you’ll also get demolished by the people using stealth that are also good, because they’re actually using a good build and they’re good.

Absconditus.6804:

You can probably defeat me just fine in PvP, but I don’t care.

This is good, because you’re going to need to be doing a lot of not caring if you try to run builds with no stealth all the time.

Ultimately, and I’ve made this analogy before, people try to construe certain mechanics as being ‘crutches’ that good players don’t have to use to perform well. This concept is so incredibly arrogant that it boggles my mind, because it’s purely designed as a ‘feel-good’ thought that makes you think you’re better than someone else because they use decoy and you don’t.

All that matters is the ultimate effectiveness of the play. While an incredibly skilled player can go out and kill people by only using 3 traits and one weaponset, this doesn’t mean that everything greater than 3 traits and one weaponset is a ‘crutch’. It’s as if you’re trying to hammer a nail, and you just so happen to be able to hammer a nail using a block of wood strapped to your fist. It’s possible to do…but you’ll do it far more efficiently and effectively if you actually use a hammer.

I run 4/4/6 with Blink, Portal, and MoDistraction. I’ve run 6/4/4 with something similar.. In fact, I don’t think I really run Decoy in any build I use in PvP. I’ll run it in duels against an opponent that forces me to take it to that level, but in organized team play I find it unnecessary, hell I’d even go with 1200r Blink over Decoy.

That is just how I play, though. I’ve learned to use Portal defensively, or Null Field’s Chaos Armor or Stability Mantra. I do feel like glass builds should have two forms of utility defense, but I don’t think decoy is required if you have Blink (and uh.. A staff =P).

Fay.2357:

There’s not a single build that works effectively for every game mode (WvW zerg, WvW roam, Dungeons, open world PvE, tPvP). Maaaaaaybe you could find something that works sorta ok for all of them with some weapon and major trait changes, but I sorta doubt that too.

sPvP: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAR8clknpItFoxMNUrNCrxg6s26MSOQAlMkrB-TJxHwADuIAn3fAwTAQZZAA
WvW/PvE: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAR8clknpItFoxMNUrNCrxg6s26MSOQAlMkrB-T1xHwADuoC+U+de/h16eirEEwTKQv6PBAOA+938tv993f/9yLv8yLvcXP86Dv+6lCQPZWA-w

Same build, pretty much no difference beyond obvious stats tailoring outside of structured. Plays exactly the same way, and has the same exact purpose—team support while dealing damage, but with the capability of functioning by itself on your own, e.g., roaming or general open-world PvE. It takes roughly 5 seconds to create 16 stacks of Might, combined with 25 stacks of Vulnerability. Might which can be shared to your party for a quick Time Warp burst. Are you going to say that you can’t shatter in a WvW zerg perhaps? Because don’t even try to say that’s not possible—you’d have to be rather intelligently challenged and try to be in the middle of the enemy zerg, on Mesmer at that, if you think it’s impossible to shatter the enemy zerg players with an harassment squad. You know, those little groups that specialize in taking out individuals in the backline and thinning the ranks of the enemies. Very often targeting the Elementalists to kill off their heal support. Boon strip is wonderful is it not?

Obviously swap out Utility skills (mainly Blink) for, e.g., Feedback and such should you really need the reflects in a dungeon. But otherwise, it plays the same as elsewhere.

There’s no huge difference in s/tPvP either. You use your skills to support your team, you roam to where you’re needed, but can hold your own in a 1v1 scenario should that occur. If that occurs away from the point you’re heading to, you can Block, Blink, Distortion to get to your team, there’s little point in randomly engaging off the points when you could spend that time assisting in taking a point for your team to tick more than the enemies. You may have trouble with thieves and if you get outnumbered by burst-heavy players, but even with Decoy you’ll likely have trouble with a good Thief or if outnumbered, they are a hard counter to Mesmers and anyone will struggle when outnumbered by strong bursters. Surviving by running away from-, or being in stealth around the point in structured is hardly what I consider winning, you just lost that point, the enemy team is now ticking higher than you. Not that you are supposed to be a point guard, but should the situation arise, and it will, you could have been visible, kept yourself in that circle and used the block, evade, distortion, dazes, knockback, cripple, immobilize and dodges to maintain neutrality and/or gain progress as your team can get to you. In stealth, you aren’t doing that, you are allowing the opposition to gain a upper hand.

Yes, I think stealth is a crutch, because I know the Mesmer profession can survive rather well without it. Of course I will be honest enough to admit I will be defeated, everyone gets bloody defeated. The most bunkery of PU will get defeated. No matter if you run stealth or not, (edit) health regen on Warriors are annoying (as a whole, not just the Boon which we can shatter off), even if you were to use a Doom sigil to try counter it (given they can shed it rather easily). Stealth or not, Guardian is another Heavy profession that is not as easily blown up, albeit a bit easier. I’m perfectly capable of accepting and stating that there are better players out there than me, players that will outplay me, players who will kill my character with ease, just like I outplay some players myself, without resorting to stealth. I dislike stealth, but that doesn’t mean I don’t know how to fight against someone in stealth (e..g, make it impossible for them to do anything while in stealth through evasion/block/distance, be aware of where and when they pop out of it for quick re-targeting, set up clones and camp for a quick burst should they engage from stealth or quickly shatter upon them entering it, should you be right by them (you can shatter just fine without 3 clones of course), predict and Mind Stab, Illusionary Wave, etc.). I just don’t want to be yet another person who uses it.

It’s always going to be subjective though. Stealth is a tool among all others, and while it instigates more scorn on average than most, it’s still just a combat tool just as daze or stun is. It’s part of the mesmer identity which in large part is to disorient your foes with illusions and unpredictable maneuvers. I totally get if somebody doesn’t want to use some skill because it isn’t their cup of tea but you should still remember subjectiveness.

Anyway, I am not a huge authority on pvp/wvw in this game, but the forays I’ve done it I find Decoy to be excellent, because it allows you to use your defense unpredictably. You can invis and run through your opponent in any direction to make sure they lose view of you, every second means better repositioning. But I still find Blink more crucial, I feel like a cripple playing without that skill, so if I choose one it will be that – I feel like it doubles better for offensive use also.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I run 4/4/6 with Blink, Portal, and MoDistraction. I’ve run 6/4/4 with something similar.. In fact, I don’t think I really run Decoy in any build I use in PvP. I’ll run it in duels against an opponent that forces me to take it to that level, but in organized team play I find it unnecessary, hell I’d even go with 1200r Blink over Decoy.

That is just how I play, though. I’ve learned to use Portal defensively, or Null Field’s Chaos Armor or Stability Mantra. I do feel like glass builds should have two forms of utility defense, but I don’t think decoy is required if you have Blink (and uh.. A staff =P).

I’ve found your real reason – the almighty Phase Retreat. :p

Absconditus.6804:

Fay.2357:

There’s not a single build that works effectively for every game mode (WvW zerg, WvW roam, Dungeons, open world PvE, tPvP). Maaaaaaybe you could find something that works sorta ok for all of them with some weapon and major trait changes, but I sorta doubt that too.

sPvP: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAR8clknpItFoxMNUrNCrxg6s26MSOQAlMkrB-TJxHwADuIAn3fAwTAQZZAA
WvW/PvE: http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAR8clknpItFoxMNUrNCrxg6s26MSOQAlMkrB-T1xHwADuoC+U+de/h16eirEEwTKQv6PBAOA+938tv993f/9yLv8yLvcXP86Dv+6lCQPZWA-w

Same build, pretty much no difference beyond obvious stats tailoring outside of structured. Plays exactly the same way, and has the same exact purpose—team support while dealing damage, but with the capability of functioning by itself on your own, e.g., roaming or general open-world PvE. It takes roughly 5 seconds to create 16 stacks of Might, combined with 25 stacks of Vulnerability. Might which can be shared to your party for a quick Time Warp burst. Are you going to say that you can’t shatter in a WvW zerg perhaps? Because don’t even try to say that’s not possible—you’d have to be rather intelligently challenged and try to be in the middle of the enemy zerg, on Mesmer at that, if you think it’s impossible to shatter the enemy zerg players with an harassment squad. You know, those little groups that specialize in taking out individuals in the backline and thinning the ranks of the enemies. Very often targeting the Elementalists to kill off their heal support. Boon strip is wonderful is it not?

Obviously swap out Utility skills (mainly Blink) for, e.g., Feedback and such should you really need the reflects in a dungeon. But otherwise, it plays the same as elsewhere.

There’s no huge difference in s/tPvP either. You use your skills to support your team, you roam to where you’re needed, but can hold your own in a 1v1 scenario should that occur. If that occurs away from the point you’re heading to, you can Block, Blink, Distortion to get to your team, there’s little point in randomly engaging off the points when you could spend that time assisting in taking a point for your team to tick more than the enemies. You may have trouble with thieves and if you get outnumbered by burst-heavy players, but even with Decoy you’ll likely have trouble with a good Thief or if outnumbered, they are a hard counter to Mesmers and anyone will struggle when outnumbered by strong bursters. Surviving by running away from-, or being in stealth around the point in structured is hardly what I consider winning, you just lost that point, the enemy team is now ticking higher than you. Not that you are supposed to be a point guard, but should the situation arise, and it will, you could have been visible, kept yourself in that circle and used the block, evade, distortion, dazes, knockback, cripple, immobilize and dodges to maintain neutrality and/or gain progress as your team can get to you. In stealth, you aren’t doing that, you are allowing the opposition to gain a upper hand.

Yes, I think stealth is a crutch, because I know the Mesmer profession can survive rather well without it. Of course I will be honest enough to admit I will be defeated, everyone gets bloody defeated. The most bunkery of PU will get defeated. No matter if you run stealth or not, (edit) health regen on Warriors are annoying (as a whole, not just the Boon which we can shatter off), even if you were to use a Doom sigil to try counter it (given they can shed it rather easily). Stealth or not, Guardian is another Heavy profession that is not as easily blown up, albeit a bit easier. I’m perfectly capable of accepting and stating that there are better players out there than me, players that will outplay me, players who will kill my character with ease, just like I outplay some players myself, without resorting to stealth. I dislike stealth, but that doesn’t mean I don’t know how to fight against someone in stealth (e..g, make it impossible for them to do anything while in stealth through evasion/block/distance, be aware of where and when they pop out of it for quick re-targeting, set up clones and camp for a quick burst should they engage from stealth or quickly shatter upon them entering it, should you be right by them (you can shatter just fine without 3 clones of course), predict and Mind Stab, Illusionary Wave, etc.). I just don’t want to be yet another person who uses it.

You use Deceptive Evasion? Man, Deceptive Evasion is such a crutch. A real Mesmer gets by without DE. If you run DE you’re no skill. If you’d just put DE down you’d learn to get by without it just fine. Sure you’d die sometimes, everybody does if we’re being honest, but DE is a crutch and good mesmers get by just fine without it.

I’m not used to this, is that about right?

No, Decoy is not necessary. Personally, I consider Blink to be more valuable. If I can have both, great, but it seldom seems to work out that way.

Ross Biddle.2367:

You use Deceptive Evasion? Man, Deceptive Evasion is such a crutch. A real Mesmer gets by without DE. If you run DE you’re no skill. If you’d just put DE down you’d learn to get by without it just fine. Sure you’d die sometimes, everybody does if we’re being honest, but DE is a crutch and good mesmers get by just fine without it.

I’m not used to this, is that about right?

Yes, because DE makes your foes lose targeting and sight of you. It totally makes you hide from your enemies, and totally makes it so that you don’t need to learn how to defend against a enemy that is constantly able to see you, as most of your enemies are seen constantly by you. It’s a unfair advantage to those professions without it, to generate clones on dodges. It is something that makes you lose the ability to contest a point in structured even. Yup. Totally.

It’s true though, you can get by just fine without DE, of course. It’s in no way required to generate illusions to shatter with. Sw/Sw can already output 3 illusions by itself, e.g., start with Swordsman as that’s more survivable and you want that to either trigger a dodge or deal some damage before you explode it, follow up with Riposte and Leap to shatter. That can be made into a quick, relatively instant burst. Stay close to your target of course, so the clones aren’t running over to them, giving it away. I can easily play without it, can you? Or is it necessary, like stealth?

DE helps optimize damage. Stealth does not. Stealth just lets you lean back on that crutch to relieve the necessity of actually optimizing your active defenses as a target.

Off-subject; Know what I find curious about you and Fay? I’ve never seen you once admit that you get defeated by others in any of your posts. I may have missed such statements of course, it’s not like I have likely read all of your posts, considering you are active, as I used to be and are a bit more again now. Anyways, it’s as if you’re some God entity infallible of making mistakes in combat. You’re both poking fun at the fact I stated I get defeated like everyone does, so that makes it seem you hold yourselves in very high regard. Are you that stuck up and high on your horses? Do you think that highly of yourself? Do you think you are such an amazing player that you’re beyond admitting that others can actually defeat you in combat? Is it that you can’t drop stealth and still perform well on the profession? So anyone saying otherwise must be lying or something? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying I’m a better player than you are, but I don’t get why you guys never seem to show any sense of a humble nature.

All I want, is for Mesmers to realize they have so much more potential than relying on stealth as a get out of jail card, and playing in the same cookie cut way of playing that everyone else plays. Rarely do I see someone play to our supportive sides. I want our players to become better and better. We’re the greatest profession in the game (subjectively opinionated and biased as it gets). Stealth does not promote getting better at actively defending and fighting someone who can see you at all times and easily distinguish you from your clones throughout the entire engagement. Playing without it, and getting better at it, does. If you don’t want to play without stealth, then don’t, play what is fun for you, that is the main idea of a game, for it to be fun. For you. E.g., if you like conditions, then go for it, I’ll gladly be one of those that’d hop into a dungeon with you, if that is what you find fun. I want the game to be fun, as much as I want you to get better as a player. The same way I want to get better, while having fun. Keep in mind that if I was destroyed consistently without stealth, I would likely not have much fun. It’s a reason I use the build above. It’s fun. For me. It can be used in all aspects of the game, to get better and better at it. It’s not like it’s a selfish and poorly optimized build that has no place in the x, y or z part of the game. It is a supportive damage-oriented build that increases your parties damage output as well as your own, but also a build you can use when you actually are on your own. You obviously swap out things if it makes sense to the situation.

Absconditus.6804:

Ross Biddle.2367:

You use Deceptive Evasion? Man, Deceptive Evasion is such a crutch. A real Mesmer gets by without DE. If you run DE you’re no skill. If you’d just put DE down you’d learn to get by without it just fine. Sure you’d die sometimes, everybody does if we’re being honest, but DE is a crutch and good mesmers get by just fine without it.

I’m not used to this, is that about right?

Off-subject; Know what I find curious about you and Fay? I’ve never seen you once admit that you get defeated by others in any of your posts. I may have missed such statements of course, it’s not like I have likely read all of your posts, you are active, as I used to be. Anyways, it’s as if you’re some God entity infallible of making mistakes in combat. You’re both poking fun at the fact I stated I get defeated like everyone does, so that makes it seem you hold yourselves in very high regard. Are you that stuck up and high on your horses? Do you think that highly of yourself? Do you think you are such an amazing player that you’re beyond admitting that others can actually defeat you in combat? Is it that you can’t drop stealth and still perform well on the profession? So anyone saying otherwise must be lying or something? Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying I’m a better player than you are, but I don’t get why you guys never seem to show any sense of a humble nature.

All I want, is for Mesmers to realize they have so much more potential than relying on stealth as a get out of jail card, and playing in the same cookie cut way of playing that everyone else plays. Rarely do I see someone play to our supportive sides. I want our players to become better and better. We’re the greatest profession in the game (subjectively opinionated and biased as it gets). Stealth does not promote getting better at actively defending and fighting someone who can see you at all times and easily distinguish you from your clones throughout the entire engagement. Playing without it, and getting better at it, does.

It’s got nothing to do with humility or who dies or not. The trouble isn’t even that you don’t run stealth. What’s at issue is your underlying philosophy and how its lead to how you’ve responded. It’s just bad, albeit erroneous thinking.

I for one don’t need to state I die. I regularly post full match videos and plaster them over the forums, and have a youtube channel where they’re all collated. I’m sure there’s evidence in there somewhere. As for Pyro, I don’t need to question if he’s a Mesmer God or not, and hear a decree from his lips that he dies. It’s reasonable to assume he goes down like everybody else does (though not necessarily as much or in the same manner). Even Rylock eats the dirt (Hey Rylock, remember that one time that I 69’d you ;D ).

So back to the topic at hand. I’ll try to put this in terms you should be able to understand. The other day I ran Full Glass 4 Mantra, 6, 6, 0, 0, 2, GS sword/torch in Ranked solo queue. So no decoy, no blink, and no friends to bail me out except that which chance provided. I did alright though my team and the enemy were of varying, albiet questionable skill level. Two of three of the matches I recorded were wins, and the one that was lost was point for point with the victory going to a downed lord. Such is life. Considering the build I did very well but despite my success I knew what I was playing was sub-optimal.

The fact is that the Mesmer class has a range of build options available to them and an experienced gamer knows that irregardless of “skill” there are certain options that’re better than others in any given build for any given role. Can a player get by without stealth and/or decoy? Sure. Hell, you don’t even need blink. But that doesn’t change the fact that a truly skilled, thoroughly experienced player (or average for that matter) can pull off greater feats, and reach greater heights of gameplay by utilizing certain skills made available to them.

Calling stealth or decoy a crutch, or cheese, or “for badz” is the language of scrubs. A true champion is going to use whatever is available to him to ensure he comes out on top. Maybe you believe stealth/decoy is unoptimal, a hindrance, and holds you back from achieving the greatest heights in this GW2 meta. That’s fine. But to turn around and proclaim that decoy/stealth is a “crutch” and is for “bad players” is faulty thinking and should be cleansed in the all consuming fire of Playing to Win philosophy.

@Absconditus

I can certainly respect that you don’t like stealth. Personally however I find there are way more cheesy things in this game than stealth – such as the ridiculous sustain/cc/tankiness/boon spam/faceroll spread across all the classes from engineers to guardians (including warriors, rangers, eles and necros).

I believe in order to have a balanced chance of winning against such stuff that exists in the game and especially good players using that stuff, stealth is necessary on a mesmer – sure it can be done without, but then you’re at a serious disadvantage when faced with other “cheese” builds.

Stealth in comparison while a strong mechanic is still much easier for me to fight against than one or more opponents with the “crutches” mentioned above, because enemies are not immune to damage in stealth and there’s only so much variance in unpredictability when using stealth so most of the time it becomes straightforward to predict what an enemy is going to do.

There are only two stealth builds in the game I hate to face in a 1v1 – one of them is of course PU condition mesmer and the other is P/D condition thief. The former can be avoided most of the time (in wvw) can be outplayed in conquest. The latter is kittenous crutch but at least it is completely useless in conquest.

Otherwise I love fighting stealthing thieves and stealthing shatter mesmers – some of the most fun fights in the game.

Curunen.8729:

@Absconditus

I can certainly respect that you don’t like stealth. Personally however I find there are way more cheesy things in this game than stealth – such as the ridiculous sustain/cc/tankiness/boon spam/faceroll spread across all the classes from engineers to guardians (including warriors, rangers, eles and necros).

I believe in order to have a balanced chance of winning against such stuff that exists in the game and especially good players using that stuff, stealth is necessary on a mesmer – sure it can be done without, but then you’re at a serious disadvantage when faced with other “cheese” builds.

Stealth in comparison while a strong mechanic is still much easier for me to fight against than one or more opponents with the “crutches” mentioned above, because enemies are not immune to damage in stealth and there’s only so much variance in unpredictability when using stealth so most of the time it becomes straightforward to predict what an enemy is going to do.

There are only two stealth builds in the game I hate to face in a 1v1 – one of them is of course PU condition mesmer and the other is P/D condition thief. The former can be avoided most of the time (in wvw) can be outplayed in conquest. The latter is kittenous crutch but at least it is completely useless in conquest.

Otherwise I love fighting stealthing thieves and stealthing shatter mesmers – some of the most fun fights in the game.

This guy right here! He gets it there are certain builds that rely on stealth as a crutch. PU condi mesmer and P/D condi thief are ones that use stealth as a crutch, they are annoying and unfun to fight against. But shatter mesmers and regular d/p thieves are pretty kitten fun to fight.

I think a workable definition of a crutch would be some sort of defensive trait or skill that allows you to cover for mistakes in play but which reduces your overall or potential efficacy. However, Decoy is more than just defensive stealth to drop target, it’s clone production and a stun break, and it can also set up an offensive play. Blink is in many cases a defensive skill, so should it be considered a crutch? Maybe, but the Mesmer is such a fragile class that it requires utilities to maintain decent survivability. I would agree that a Mesmer build that has a lot of stealth in it has given up too much offensive potential. Torch stealth does have an offensive component, but there are more offensive weapon skills that can be slotted in 4/5.

I also think the argument could be made that Absconditus’ sPvP build is using a couple crutches, after all you’re not using a more offensive skill (e.g. Mirror Images, Mantra of Distraction) in place of Decoy, instead you have Mantra of Resolve and Signet of Inspiration. You don’t have portal either, which is arguably the greatest force multiplier for a Mesmer to utilize in sPvP (you can be into two places almost simultaneously). Instead you have 3 (mostly) defensive utilities.

Better question would be: How much defense does a Mesmer need, and which defensive skills are optimal?

Bertrand.3057:

I think a workable definition of a crutch would be some sort of defensive trait or skill that allows you to cover for mistakes in play but which reduces your overall or potential efficacy. However, Decoy is more than just defensive stealth to drop target, it’s clone production and a stun break, and it can also set up an offensive play. Blink is in many cases a defensive skill, so should it be considered a crutch? Maybe, but the Mesmer is such a fragile class that it requires utilities to maintain decent survivability. I would agree that a Mesmer build that has a lot of stealth in it has given up too much offensive potential. Torch stealth does have an offensive component, but there are more offensive weapon skills that can be slotted in 4/5.

I also think the argument could be made that Absconditus’ sPvP build is using a couple crutches, after all you’re not using a more offensive skill (e.g. Mirror Images, Mantra of Distraction) in place of Decoy, instead you have Mantra of Resolve and Signet of Inspiration. You don’t have portal either, which is arguably the greatest force multiplier for a Mesmer to utilize in sPvP (you can be into two places almost simultaneously). Instead you have 3 (mostly) defensive utilities.

Better question would be: How much defense does a Mesmer need, and which defensive skills are optimal?

No, this guy gets it.

Blink is not purely defensive though. Mobility also lends itself to the ability to chase, which is incredibly important if someone wants to disengage. It can also be used as part of an offensive counter strategy, such as a long range blink onto a Mesmer opening with a iZerker, torch 4 to blind defusing the cast, and stealth leading to a counter offensive/burst.

But anyway, decoy, Bertrand truly gets it.

Warning Wall of Text
I run a no-evade Mesmer setup just fine, which works perfectly okay for all game modes, and that without needing to swap any gear or traits. Sure, I get killed if I am outnumbered (as to be expected), or a decent Thief is on me. Sure it can be annoying to fight HP regeneration-master-race Warriors or survivable not-really-all-that-glass cannon-but-hits-like-a-truck-nonetheless-since-their-re-balance-which-took-a-balanced-profession-I-loved-and-made-it-unbalanced Guardians. But if you need dodges? No. You don’t need Blurred Frenzy, Critical Infusion or Distortion either. You can be competitive without using the crutch that is evasion. That’s how I see it, a crutch, as being not able to be hit is not a display of skill. The enemy couldn’t hit you or what you were doing. Hence, it’s a crutch. It can be something that tricks you into thinking you may be decent, when you really aren’t (in the majority of cases) the second you stop using it. And that sudden change from being a winner to a wiener, is not because the profession needs evasion to function. It is because you actually used a crutch and aren’t as good as you think you are. Try it, if you’ve been a evasion user for a long time. It’s kinda like thieves saying they need evasion (beyond triggering on-evade procs, e.g., Power of Inertia) when a great Thief knows that they have so many stealth that evasion is not entirely necessary for them. Once in a blue moon you come by them, but they’ll demolish you as well. The good players, not the ones that ride on a crutch. I am a proud Mesmer, proud of not using evasion. You can probably defeat me just fine in PvP, but I don’t care. At least I weren’t using evasion. That said, if you enjoy using evasion skills, and that is fun to you, by all means, use it, have fun. That is ultimately what matters. Just be humble enough to realize it is a OP tool that means you probably aren’t as good as you may think you are, even if you win a lot of 1 v X.
K enough trolling. Here’s what I think:
A crutch is the stick which a disabled person uses to allow him or her to do things in their daily lives. It can be implied as the thing which is the main support of a build. In a shatter build, the actual ‘crutch’ is not Stealth, not Deceptive Evasion, but Illusionary Persona. Another example could be Lockdown mesmer, ehich the ‘crutch’ is Chaotic Interruption. So, isn’t the ‘crutch’ what makes a build a build?
And to reply to the topic of the OP : Decoy is useful in many builds, but definately nit necessary. It all depends on the build and playstyle, or other sources of defence e.g. MoD with CS/CI.

Every Build needs a ‘OH kitten ’ Button. Decoy is our ‘OH kitten ’ Button.
The problem with Mesmer is, you can use other Skills than Blink and Decoy. But most of Mesmers ulities are bs. I run since release with Condiremove Mantra, Blink, Decoy. Sometimes I play without Condition Remove or with Arcane Thievery. But Blink and Decoy? Everytime in every Build. (Well, and they are the funniest skills we have.)

^ only talking about roaming and pvp. Not zerging or pve